Crazy Idea: Split SCH from ARC and make it a 30+ job like HW

I kinda thought about that back when SMN rework was revealed for 6.0, and yeah, it makes sense. Currently, SCH is totally disconnected from ACN, and the original duality is lost. Now ACN is just an SMN-lite, the only tie-in with Scholar is having Physick and Res. Even the pet behaves differently. So in my mind, I saw them splitting SCH from ACN as its own thing. Assuming SCH gets a complete rework in 7.0. But alas, rework didn't happen, but I still see a potential for one in 8.0. This would be the perfect time to separate SCH from ACN/SMN.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

If they did this split both should be available at 1 they are both ARR jobs and deserve that

As for WHM creating the wrong habits it’s to do with the fact WHM has no oGCD’s before 50 and the first one it gets to someone who doesn’t know how healers work “feels” like a panic button (benediction). Meanwhile SCH has the fairy to help and by 50 has 3 charges of lustrate, whispering dawn and illumination

You really don’t play shield healers proactively in anything besides high end content. SCH does a much better job of teaching healing habits at low levels than WHM does

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You're forgetting Regen, which at lower levels negates having the WHM even have to cast a heal.

The benefits for splitting the classes is nebulous at best, while the downsides are clear for all to see.

No one will care about coding if they'll have to invest double the time leveling both jobs with no guarantees of an improved gameplay.

And it's ironic coming from some supporting this, because SMN rework literally answered to feedback thrown in a similar light ("SMN should be about summoning, not about DoTs or a pet you summon once and then pretty much forget about afterwards. Pls change SMN") and nowadays several of you complain non-stop about SMN in the forums.

When I think of “summoning” I don’t think of glorified flashy roomwide AOE’s then playing an elemental mage

SCH is ironically a better SMN than SMN is

Except not everyone are on that boat. I despise EW and soon DT SMN. And if they still push Serphism as it is, SCH.

But back on the topic, I am still opposed to the decoupling.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

When I think of “summoning” I don’t think of glorified flashy roomwide AOE’s then playing an elemental mage

SCH is ironically a better SMN than SMN is

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And what you discredit as "summoning" has been the core gameplay of summoning for pretty much the bigger part of the FF franchise. Both in mainstay games, spin-off games (like FF Tactics) or jRPG from the same company like Bravely Default and Tactics Ogre.
One big flashy AoE or beneficial effect.

So yeah, it's not really hard to understand why SE and many fans would actually consider current iteration of summoning as true to the source because, in case the innumerable references to previous FF games haven't drilled the point, FFXIV is and always has been a FF theme park MMO. And one that, for the most part, draws from the older games not the newer ones.

so the gradual move from plain flashy to actual avatars fighting wth you (X, XI, XII, XIII,VIII to some extent) suddenly becomes disrepectful to the franchise?

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Originally Posted by BokoToloko

And what you discredit as "summoning" has been the core gameplay of summoning for pretty much the bigger part of the FF franchise. Both in mainstay games, spin-off games (like FF Tactics) or jRPG from the same company like Bravely Default and Tactics Ogre.
One big flashy AoE or beneficial effect.

So yeah, it's not really hard to understand why SE and many fans would actually consider current iteration of summoning as true to the source because, in case the innumerable references to previous FF games haven't drilled the point, FFXIV is and always has been a FF theme park MMO. And one that, for the most part, draws from the older games not the newer ones.

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14 also has its own lore which modern SMN has trampled on which should superseded all references to any game

Regardless as rawker said below 10 11 12 13 as well as 15 and 16 do not remotely match modern SMN either

And like I said I don’t care what your favourite reference is 14’s lore comes first, if 14’s lore conflicts with your favourite version of x job then 14 wins out because almost every job has 10 different iterations. Or can I start asking for BLU to play like Clive

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Originally Posted by rawker

so the gradual move from plain flashy to actual avatars fighting wth you (X, XI, XII, XIII,VIII to some extent) suddenly becomes disrepectful to the franchise?

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Nowhere did I say it was disrespectful to the franchise. Don't put words in my mouth. That's just arguing in bad faith.

What I did say is that summons being flashy aoes was pretty much the norm for the most part (as in, in most FF games, not as in, that's how it MUST be and the ones who didn't aren't true summoners) because that's what it's been and, most people, being already FF players for the most part, would sign for the job with that imagery in mind. And what you cannot do is expect people suddenly think your version is the norm either. Because this works both ways.

And it's ironic supersnow doesn't consider current iteration summoning when, in the prior version, people were doing literally the same with that version. Specially in Heavensward, where the constant complain was that you ideally would only summon one Egi once for a fight and that's it. And, by Heavensward, the only option to go with other than when soloing was Garuda because of her interaction with DoTs. And there was also the very common problem of the pets ghosting players at every turn, which no one ( and I mean it) really liked at any time.

And, Supersnow... You had better explain why modern Summoner clashes with current lore before you try to tell me what's valid or not. Because, for the most part, the lore boils down to call down on Egis and use their powers against primals. Because only reason I can think of is just the story concerning Belias. That's it.

Your argument highly suggests so.

The fact that the relaunch made ACN, SMN, SCH as pet jobs is already a give-away that it is going to follow what was done with 10,11,12, and 13, with a twist, hence the Egis. I am not going to lie, I was not a fan of the egis, at first, but I thought, if they already gave us the ability to call on the primals at such an early phase of the game, then they'll easily run out of gimmicks... actually, they're doing it right now with how they only introduced Solar Bahamut for the entirety of DT. They wanted SMN to be more offensive compared to 11 where it was relegated as discount WHM with Avatars and that supportive aspect has been given to SCH.

Given how SCH evolved, it has proven to be closer to what a summoner is than the actual SMN job. Sure SCH has issues of its own, but if we're going to just focus on the pet, then it is still faithful to what a summoner is. The only thing missing to it is Enkindle.

I've said it in other threads and I'll say it here: I think they should give SCH its own starting class so new players have a second healer to choose from. °˖✧◝(⁰▿⁰)◜✧˖°
With this, new players would have access to a healer with a special mechanic and oGCD heals earlier, which would contrast CNJ/WHM who don't receive their first healing oGCD until 50 (Benediction) and their special mechanic (Lilies) at 52.

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Originally Posted by rawker

Your argument highly suggests so.

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That's just your basless assumption. The fact you've only said that without further elaboration only makes it clearer.

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The fact that the relaunch made ACN, SMN, SCH as pet jobs is already a give-away that it is going to follow what was done with 10,11,12, and 13, with a twist, hence the Egis. I am not going to lie, I was not a fan of the egis, at first, but I thought, if they already gave us the ability to call on the primals at such an early phase of the game, then they'll easily run out of gimmicks... actually, they're doing it right now with how they only introduced Solar Bahamut for the entirety of DT. They wanted SMN to be more offensive compared to 11 where it was relegated as discount WHM with Avatars and that supportive aspect has been given to SCH.

Given how SCH evolved, it has proven to be closer to what a summoner is than the actual SMN job. Sure SCH has issues of its own, but if we're going to just focus on the pet, then it is still faithful to what a summoner is. The only thing missing to it is Enkindle.

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Honestly, these pharagraphs give me the impression than rather than being me who is forcing my version on others it's actually you and the catboy above who are hellbent in claiming your version as the objectively right one. And neither is.

It's just the current version hinges more on flashy apparitions than being a pet, like it or hate it. And if there's ONE common point among all FF summons, barring FF11, (even in FF14 because, let's face it, the primals themselves are the actual summons, the summoners canonically only handle the lite versions, regardless of the duration) is that they are ALWAYS flashy. Whether it's being an avatar or an AoE spell, it was never a flimsy thingy. And if you don't like it, you're welcome not to. But don't pretend it's YOUR version that's right when there is nothing that backs you up.

Wait so it is wrong to contest the removal of a mechanic that drew you into playing the job, in the fist place? If it didn't start off as one, i will not give any time or attention. Other people will. So telling me that my version is right is wrong because my argument is rooted to the job's history. Let's see what happens if let's say they decided GNB to be the next job to be braindead. Let's see how GNB mains will react? Quite sure it won't be pretty.

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Originally Posted by BokoToloko

That's just your basless assumption. The fact you've only said that without further elaboration only makes it clearer.


Honestly, these pharagraphs give me the impression than rather than being me who is forcing my version on others it's actually you and the catboy above who are hellbent in claiming your version as the objectively right one. And neither is.

It's just the current version hinges more on flashy apparitions than being a pet, like it or hate it. And if there's ONE common point among all FF summons, barring FF11, (even in FF14 because, let's face it, the primals themselves are the actual summons, the summoners canonically only handle the lite versions, regardless of the duration) is that they are ALWAYS flashy. Whether it's being an avatar or an AoE spell, it was never a flimsy thingy. And if you don't like it, you're welcome not to. But don't pretend it's YOUR version that's right when there is nothing that backs you up.

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I never claimed my vision as the right one, I said when I think of SMN I don’t think raidwide AOE then elemental mage and you came in and said “acshooly 14 panders to old FF games and that’s what old SMN’s were”

I don’t really particularly care what old FF SMN’s were. The job quests of SMN before they got changed justified why we couldn’t summon primals but could summon Demi’s, the primal upgrade at 90 messes with that lore. The allagen roots of the job explain the poison DOT’s, modern SMN doesn’t have DOT’s and doesn’t have a reason to still have a skill called “fester” considering that relied on poison DOT’s. Modern SMN doesn’t justify using carbuncle as a foundation for your summons, it’s just a holdover from ACN. Old SMN justified the ability to have 1 demi always out and SCH justifies lily

I don’t like modern SMN but that was never my point, my point was that SCH feels more like a SMN to me because the idea you are actively controlling your summon to generate advantage to yourself including positioning, controlled desummoning and temporary upgrades feels more like a SMN than whatever modern SMN is doing and i don’t care which side of the design of the many FF games you use to attempt to justify either side. The modern SMN job quests make little to no sense, the flow on from ACN makes little sense and the job doesn’t feel like a SMN to me, I feel like an elemental mage. However that’s my opinion, nowhere did I say you have to think that way. I didnt even particularly like Old SMN either, my entire point centred on the fact that active control over lily makes SCH feel more like a summoning job

I've been advocating for this for years, so they no longer have to arbitrarily tie SCH identity to ACN/SMN anymore, or vice versa... one of them really doesn't need aetherflow mechanics

and at the end of the day, i think this is the direction they're moving towards anyway since back in ARR all the actions of ACN used to be shared between all 3 (ACN/SCH/SMN) but... iirc in SHADOWBRINGERS, not even Endwalker, the previous expansion, all of SCH actions where changed to unique SCH only actions. Including Physick, which is the real head scratcher for me, since SMN has this completely useless spell level 52+ when they could easily just change ACN/SMN version to scale off INT instead of MND and it would change nothing for the SCH version of the spell.

the only ability that is still shared between all 3 is Resurrection, and what ability has been specifically called out at the LL prior to expansion releases twice in a row as an ability they've been considering removing from the SMN kit?

I wouldn't be surprised if this doesn't happen until/if/when they remove classes altogether, which is another thing that I've been saying they should have done for years to clean up the lower levels.

We're a decade into FFXIV and I'm not sure it matters where the job started compared to where it's going. Summoning lore is all over the place, especially with ShB and EW and creation magic. In prior games summons always had a time limit for how long you could control them then they would go away. That doesn't really line up great with a pet job. I do want a good pet job. I would even love a non-limited pet job. I don't need that job to be SMN or SCH.

And none of that particularly matters to discussion at hand because it was a question about splitting off SCH from ACN because they have almost nothing to do with each other mechanically. It could be in the form of a new class, though that seems unviable given that you get your faerie right away. It could be the first of the current jobs to get a new storyline starting at level 1. It could just go be a HW-style job that starts at 30 because for the moment that's what is acts most like today. If you ditch Resurrection or make it SCH only you have a complete clean separation of abilities.

It would also allow SMN to ditch Physick, which really has no place on a magical DPS. Resurrection, I'm going to leave alone because there's a thousand comments on that already.

I am going to be on the side of the contrarians here and agree with OP. But mostly because I see far too often (especially back when SMN had a 2 year opener), people did not know how to play the "other" job. Or just struggle with it due to lack of experience.
If you levelled SMN, you would barely know how SCH worked or vice-versa, if you levelled SCH you would not know how SMN worked.
So splitting them would be a good option! I would go as far as to say they should have introduced a new class from level 1 so it can counter WHM, giving players a shield healer to start with and to learn, so they don't get as confused as to how the job works and how are they supposed to heal when on a shield healer.

I also have a semi-ok solution for it! Put it in the Marauder guild instead of the misleading gun-wielding class that never came. You could make it just an ACN (Arcanist) with a different name that would be more focused on healing and shielding rather than damage. It would also be easier for players to find the SCH Job quest since the guy who gives it to them is right there. The story could be different leaning more on you being a separate branch of ACN that was specifically formed to aid the marauders of Limsa in battles, so they focus more on healing/shielding. Also having a carbuncle pet (possibly different colours) that would passively heal (hence why the Faeries can be turned into Carby, but SMN Carby can't be turned into Faeries).

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Originally Posted by Sjol

Even though it didn't originate in HW, if they changed the story up just a little bit, you could have it be a job that starts at 30 just like the HW jobs. You could also remove the prereq that you have a job at 50. It would be weird, but it would finally split the SCH and SMN jobs from the same XP track, which I'm sure a lot of people love, but it does make it the very odd job/class out.

An alternative would be to give it an alternative class (a new one) to start from but that's a ton more work.

Can't change titles (but it should read ACN)

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I would do this as well as split NIN from Rogue. Both of those jobs were kind of special ARR additions anyway, and they are also the least related to their respective classes.

Spaghetti code won't let them.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

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Usually, when you say something is your opinion, you make it clear that it IS so. You did not. You can trace back to your own comments and you will see that stated very bluntly "X" is "X", which is usually what people do when stating objective facts, not opinions. Even less when you're trying to refute me with them.

But, you know what? Even if we limited ourselves to just FF14 (which, duuh, is called a Final Fantasy, not Trials of Mana, not Baldur's Gate; and yes, previous games DO matter because the set up conventions for the whole franchise that the company WILL follow and the fans WILL expect), your opinion would STILL not hold up to further scrutiny.

The poison DoT had NOTHING to do with Allagan lore. They were unrelatedly drawn from Arcanist lore which, itself, draws the art of arcanima from the Southern Seas, namely Aloalo. And if you played that Variant dungeon, you would quickly noticed that it had at least 2 boss with an interestingly close aesthetic to Scholars, not to Summoners. Summoner lore literally began by slapping the summons on a promising Arcanist (the WoL). Summoners, from the start, were Arcanist and Summoners, not just one class/job.

But if you want to discuss things that aren't explained... be thorough about it. Begin not with Endwalker. Begin with Stormblood where we, somehow, manage to summon Demi-Bahamut after being told in Heavensward we couldn't summon more Egis, let alone a boosted version called Demi of one of the most powerful primals to ever exist, because we just didn't have the aetheric capacity (lore speak for: "nuh-huh, no more summons"). And, obviously, you'll also have to decry Demi-Phoenix too. And if your answer to that is "we got stronger", why can't we get stronger to evolve the Egi into Demi versions?

And what SMN lore and gameplays DID entail was attuning yourself (Trance) to primals essences (which would also mean attuning to their element, too, in case you missed it) or call forth watered down versions, aka Egis. In other words, they were Primalmancers and, yes, since the primals we did attune had element linked to, that would "make us Elemental Mages" (which is as absurd to deride as it is to say "Ninjas are just elemental mages, duh"). And the fact you even say Scholars are closer to be summoners just betray your utter lack of knowledge, as the fairies are literal familiars with a conscience on their own and had nothing to do with Primals, which was pretty much all summoning boiled down to, with room for both gameplay versions.

Let me spare you the trouble and I'll spell your actual thoughts in a simple phrase: "I want a pet job". Period. It's that simple.

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Originally Posted by rawker

Wait so it is wrong to contest the removal of a mechanic that drew you into playing the job, in the fist place? If it didn't start off as one, i will not give any time or attention. Other people will. So telling me that my version is right is wrong because my argument is rooted to the job's history. Let's see what happens if let's say they decided GNB to be the next job to be braindead. Let's see how GNB mains will react? Quite sure it won't be pretty.

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If you did this about the mechanics and how braindead it is, which a fair point, we wouldn't be having this discussion. And you did not make it just about gameplay being braindead. And I would rather they actually polished what we got now into an actually engaging job rather than just retrace steps only to trip with old problems again because, newsflash, they're just unable to make a satisfactory pet gameplay or a DoT gameplay (DoT mechanics will always be dead on arrival until SE takes a page from WoW again).

Why did you even bother to write a paragraph about “don’t sell your opinions as facts” when you then proceeded to sell your opinions as facts especially given you’ve just put words into my mouth given yes I full agree old SMN didn’t justify Bahamut or pheonix either, I fully agree with you on that front

Yes when I think of a SMN I think of a pet job, I don’t think that’s a wrong opinion to have