Boring design

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

RDM is also taken by an NPC

the only jobs that aren’t NPC jobs exclusively (so ignoring like graha plays functionally as a PLD if you make him a tank) and that meteor hasn’t played already are

-WHM
-SCH
-BLM
-SMN
-BRD (though he has played ARC)
-DNC (if you don’t count lyna)
-MCH
-NIN

---

Stormblood meteor was shown as both a monk and samurai, jobs represented by Lyse and Gosetsu. I don't think they're intentionally avoiding jobs because an important NPC for that expansion is also representing that job.

I don't mind the design of healer hits in groups, but doing solo content with a healer is just terrible. I consider WHM to be my main nowadays, but you won't find me playing it without at least one other player in the group.

In "many vs. many" solo instances, SE could just slot a healer in as a healer. (And similarly for tanks.) "Healers should heal" and all that. :p

Honestly healers desperately need that silent pulsing damage up they use in criterion but turned up to 15

Even ignoring how boring 111111111111 is you do so little damage that the instances are just ungodly boring

I’ve been doing NG+ and I actively put the duties on very easily, both to better represent how strong the WOL is but also because healing longer instances (like the one where we fight magni in 4.3 with half the fight being Y’shtola or the final fight against Zenos) is just so ungodly boring and makes the WOL look like a weakling

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Honestly healers desperately need that silent pulsing damage up they use in criterion but turned up to 15

Even ignoring how boring 111111111111 is you do so little damage that the instances are just ungodly boring

I’ve been doing NG+ and I actively put the duties on very easily, both to better represent how strong the WOL is but also because healing longer instances (like the one where we fight magni in 4.3 with half the fight being Y’shtola or the final fight against Zenos) is just so ungodly boring and makes the WOL look like a weakling

---

They could solve the issue of solo instanced fights being a slog on healer if they just gave healers a unique echo buff that just boosts our damage by 50% or something. Spamming Glare/Broil/Malefic/Dosis is still boring, but at the very least, it ends faster.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Stormblood meteor was shown as both a monk and samurai, jobs represented by Lyse and Gosetsu. I don't think they're intentionally avoiding jobs because an important NPC for that expansion is also representing that job.

---

Important NPC no, but member of the 7th dawn probably

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hunter2

Could you elaborate on what some of those do?

---

The scholar in FFXI has access to 2 "stances" , Light Arts and Dark Arts, which basically allow them to use certain advanced buffs/heals or debuffs/offensive magic. Each stance also lets them access specific stratagems which act as a metamagic of sorts. Much like "Recitation" or "Emergency Tacticts", the FFXI stratagems modify the next spell you cast, expanding its range, duration or potency. Stratagems are consumed and they recharge at a fixed rate (Kind of like lillies but with a much longer CD)

Helixes are a type of magic exclusive to the Scholar. Basically a type of elemental offensive spell that gets stronger depending on the type of weather in the zone. I believe scholar also gets access to a spell to change the weather.
Kaustra is a super expensive, super strong DoT.
Embrava is a super expensive HoT that gradually restores target party member's HP and MP, increases attack speed and ranged attack speed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sylvain

Important NPC no, but member of the 7th dawn probably

---

But Lyse was part of the main crew until the end of SB, so that's not it either.

Derplander was MNK in SB, right. He's seen sparring with Lyse.. so there's still a possibility that derplander will be a job that an NPC currently is.

Meteor and lyse technically became monks at the same time (lyse revealed herself as actual lyse and started to go more towards MNK than Yda pugalist right about when the SB trailer launched so it’s not like lyse was cemented in their minds as a MNK) so I doubt they will use a job that an existing scion has been using for long enough that we tend to associate that job with that scion

So I’m still of the opinion AST/GNB (who I forgot in my original list)/SGE/RDM/PIC are out, graha and Y’sthola still can’t seem to decide if they want to fully embrace black magic or hold onto white magic as well and graha also juggles being a PLD so I won’t count any of them

So meteor is really only left with

-WHM
-SCH
-SMN
-BLM
-MCH
-BRD (again assuming they ignore he was once and ARC)
-DNC (lyna isn’t important enough in my eyes)
-NIN (yugiri is the same as lyna in my eyes)

A few points I'd like to make.

The 1111111111 examples is not really true if you play optimally. For WHM you have Dia, Assize for damage, and the lilly heals you can use just for mobility without losing dps. Making such exaggerated claims hurts the overal cause of getting more fun gameplay for healers.

In the past with a more complicated SCH there were constant fights between SCH and WHM players. SCH players felt they were entitled to higher performance due to complexity. And WHM player unhappy about their lower performance. There is no good way to balance that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aiqa

The 1111111111 examples is not really true if you play optimally. For WHM you have Dia, Assize for damage, and the lilly heals you can use just for mobility without losing dps. Making such exaggerated claims hurts the overal cause of getting more fun gameplay for healers.

---

It's figurative, not literal. The point is that it's ridiculous of how much one single button dominates gameplay.

You get 24 casts in 60 seconds with a 2.5 second GCD. That gets you: 3 lily heals, 1 Misery, 1.5 Assizes, 2 Dias, and… 18 Glares. Perusing random clear logs for ultimates, I'm still seeing WHM's spend 40-50% of their casts on Glare/Stone.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aiqa

A few points I'd like to make.

The 1111111111 examples is not really true if you play optimally. For WHM you have Dia, Assize for damage, and the lilly heals you can use just for mobility without losing dps. Making such exaggerated claims hurts the overal cause of getting more fun gameplay for healers.

In the past with a more complicated SCH there were constant fights between SCH and WHM players. SCH players felt they were entitled to higher performance due to complexity. And WHM player unhappy about their lower performance. There is no good way to balance that.

---

To add to what Apkallu said, it's specifically in reference to how healer gameplay looks like this:

https://i.imgur.com/tyAxASE.png

https://i.imgur.com/HJAuGZZ.png

https://i.imgur.com/2cZxz0a.png

https://i.imgur.com/9NVemgU.png

^ That's P10S by the way, a fight with one of the most intense healing checks in the game. Notice how every healer is casting their basic level 1 attack spell more than every other action on their hotbar put together. We can "um, actually" the specifics of what is or isn't really the healer rotation until we die of old age, but that is ignoring the actual issue being addressed. Which is that for long swaths of gameplay, healers are stuck with nothing but 11111111 until the next DOT or Phlegma comes around only to dive right back into 111111.

Why does everyone put Glare on 1? Just put it on 3 or something instead. Sometimes the best solution is the easiest one.

The forum ate my post. I had a lot more than this written, that was just a joke at the start.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adeacia

Why does everyone put Glare on 1? Just put it on 3 or something instead. Sometimes the best solution is the easiest one.

---

Someone should make a plugin that makes the glare button randomly jump around your hotbar really.

I mean, I've said it before, I think, but healing in itself is already just playing whack-a-mole with your cooldowns anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adeacia

Why does everyone put Glare on 1? Just put it on 3 or something instead. Sometimes the best solution is the easiest one.

---

We need you to work for NASA. With your problem solving skills, we could've found life on other planets by now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Truen

Why are healers so boring! Who in their right mind thinks it's fun to cast glare x8 times /w a dot in the middle over and over while questing through content...this is such a braindead, sleepy, and boring experience!

---

After hearing this same issue for months. I conclude…this new style is fine for healers. Would rather have healers pre-plan on their healing tools than rely on multiple ways to DPS.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Osmond

After hearing this same issue for months. I conclude…this new style is fine for healers. Would rather have healers pre-plan on their healing tools than rely on multiple ways to DPS.

---

Pre-planning healing is already a thing, but that's neither very difficult nor does it take very long. And then what? You go right back to spamming a single button once the plan is finished.
And in casual content they're never going to force healers to actually plan cooldown usage, so that aspect is dead outright.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Osmond

After hearing this same issue for months. I conclude…this new style is fine for healers. Would rather have healers pre-plan on their healing tools than rely on multiple ways to DPS.

---

You can't pre-plan for Duty Finder (or rather, you can't assume that you'll be able to stick to whatever you pre-plan) or solo encounters that you only run once.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Osmond

After hearing this same issue for months. I conclude…this new style is fine for healers. Would rather have healers pre-plan on their healing tools than rely on multiple ways to DPS.

---

While pre-planning sounds engaging, you can only make a plan once. After that, you just follow that script you made for yourself endlessly until the rest of your team stop making mistakes and you clear the fight.

I find making the plan fun, but following the script endlessly for reclears is incredibly boring. Healers are the only role that gets punished with actively worse gameplay when optimised, that's not a good design.

I've seen many state that healing can be really fun in the very specific instance where you are blind progging new savage fights and need to figure out how to plan our your cooldowns in the most effective manner. But of course, that is one tiny spec of circumstantial gameplay that cannot carry the entire rest of the healer experience. I would find it insulting were anyone to try and sell that to me to justify healers being an atrocity of game design in literally every other aspect of PVE healing.

Pre-planning.

Hot take: make the boss randomly use certain attacks (good old prey attacks) on random targets members. Can happen at any time. Could even consider it with specific kinds of party wides. And random mini bursts/crits on the tank. Hell in savage you could even make those bursts being insta kill on other party members and make them target them too with long casts and markers, and make the tanks actually tank and cover people.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valence

Pre-planning.

Hot take: make the boss randomly use certain attacks (good old prey attacks) on random targets members. Can happen at any time. Could even consider it with specific kinds of party wides. And random mini bursts/crits on the tank. Hell in savage you could even make those bursts being insta kill on other party members and make them target them too with long casts and markers, and make the tanks actually tank and cover people.

---

I like the idea of the boss resetting aggro and long-casting a homing projectile tankbuster on a random target that the tank can intercept (or a PLD can just cover).

But yes, bring back uncasted mini-busters and boss crits so damage can be unpredictable again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

You can't pre-plan for Duty Finder (or rather, you can't assume that you'll be able to stick to whatever you pre-plan) or solo encounters that you only run once.

---

Other people pointed out the issue that planning only happen once, but the other issue is that the better you get at healing the faster you'll plan. It's not as if damage profile is unique enough that you'll have a unique plan for every encounter. I could copy my P8P2 heal plan macro, change the cast names around and now it works for P4P2 finale.

You mentioned not being able to stick to healing plan because of DF. This isn't accurate. I PF a lot and i still use the same healing plan for every group. A good healing plan will always include margin of error. With how large our healing kit is and how little damage normal content deals, you don't even need a plan to be 90% optimal.

The larger our healing kit is, the less relevant this kind of planning becomes. Adding more free heals makes both healing and damaging less interesting.

Quite honestly, the best I could think off is to have adaptive difficulty in the game where it takes the damage the party deals/takes and it will have a move break the pattern

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rawker

Quite honestly, the best I could think off is to have adaptive difficulty in the game where it takes the damage the party deals/takes and it will have a move break the pattern

---

The easiest answer is to scrap the "planned damage" model and give bosses things like heavy unchoreographed hits on the tanks, random attacks at the raid, etc. Basically bake in a lot of damage that isn't pass/fail based on standing in the fire. In other MMOs healers are busy keeping the tank and party up, not spamming the 1 key in between set piece mechanics.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aravell

While pre-planning sounds engaging, you can only make a plan once. After that, you just follow that script you made for yourself endlessly until the rest of your team stop making mistakes and you clear the fight.

I find making the plan fun, but following the script endlessly for reclears is incredibly boring. Healers are the only role that gets punished with actively worse gameplay when optimised, that's not a good design.

---

Then the same logic has the apply to DPS. From bursting to rotations. If this type of planning ends up boring, then the later also has to become boring as well. I do thought of this for some time. Reading feedback of others….with the lack of a consistent consensus. I don’t see this type of pattern changing anytime soon so I can see the devs applying occam’s razor in their decision making and why I replied that statement.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Osmond

Then the same logic has the apply to DPS. From bursting to rotations. If this type of planning ends up boring, then the later also has to become boring as well. I do thought of this for some time. Reading feedback of others….with the lack of a consistent consensus. I don’t see this type of pattern changing anytime soon so I can see the devs applying occam’s razor in their decision making and why I replied that statement.

---

The difference is in the application during the fights itself. Even the more rigid DPS jobs (DRG/MCH) have things to work around like hitting positionals (DRG) and avoiding drift (MCH). Achieving optimisation on a DPS job is often more than just following a script.

Healers, on the other hand, is just all about resource planning. Every resource you have is on a 30s+ CD, optimising healers tends to be just spreadsheeting and then counting your filler spells until the next CD you have to press. I think the only other job that involves spreadsheeting was old PLD, but they at least had the benefit of needing a different plan on every fight. If you take a look at the damage profiles of the fights in savage, the damage profile is roughly the same, meaning as a healer, you only plan once and then can transplant that same plan onto every fight.

Put simply, while you do follow one "optimal rotation" as a DPS, the way the tank pulls the boss and how often your procs happen does change your play from pull to pull. Healers don't have the luxury of secondary systems to engage them, it's all just flat cooldowns and resource requirements, all the while you're mashing the filler key and refreshing your DoT every 30s like clockwork.

People aren't joking when they said they count their Broils to know where they are in the fight.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aravell

The difference is in the application during the fights itself. Even the more rigid DPS jobs (DRG/MCH) have things to work around like hitting positionals (DRG) and avoiding drift (MCH). Achieving optimisation on a DPS job is often more than just following a script.

Healers, on the other hand, is just all about resource planning. Every resource you have is on a 30s+ CD, optimising healers tends to be just spreadsheeting and then counting your filler spells until the next CD you have to press. I think the only other job that involves spreadsheeting was old PLD, but they at least had the benefit of needing a different plan on every fight. If you take a look at the damage profiles of the fights in savage, the damage profile is roughly the same, meaning as a healer, you only plan once and then can transplant that same plan onto every fight.

Put simply, while you do follow one "optimal rotation" as a DPS, the way the tank pulls the boss and how often your procs happen does change your play from pull to pull. Healers don't have the luxury of secondary systems to engage them, it's all just flat cooldowns and resource requirements, all the while you're mashing the filler key and refreshing your DoT every 30s like clockwork.

People aren't joking when they said they count their Broils to know where they are in the fight.

---

Both routes doesn’t sound bad, between optimization and planning. Both leads to the same end goal in the end. Achieving the least amount of effort to achieve success. Even if healers do only broil or glare, is it really necessary to add more steps, more routes..abilities to make the job “fun” to a smaller number of people who plays healer?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Osmond

Both routes doesn’t sound bad, between optimization and planning. Both leads to the same end goal in the end. Achieving the least amount of effort to achieve success. Even if healers do only broil or glare, is it really necessary to add more steps, more routes..abilities to make the job “fun” to a smaller number of people who plays healer?

---

Yes they both lead to the same end goal but one is decidedly more fun than the other

When you have filler would you rather press 111111111 or press your buttons as a DPS

sure you can spreadsheet healer CD’s and DPS rotations but just because you can get both down mostly to the GCD doesn’t mean the healer side is remotely fun to actually execute and it’s unfair to say “well few people play healer so they should just accept the terrible design”

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Osmond

Both routes doesn’t sound bad, between optimization and planning. Both leads to the same end goal in the end. Achieving the least amount of effort to achieve success. Even if healers do only broil or glare, is it really necessary to add more steps, more routes..abilities to make the job “fun” to a smaller number of people who plays healer?

---

You have to ask these questions then:
- Would adding more optimisation steps and routes actually harm anyone?
- Is the amount of people who want more really that small?
- Is it good design for a job to get more dull as you get better at it?

Adding more steps or routes towards optimisation harms no one except people who play healer purely because it's really easy to achieve high performance, and I don't think forcing people to put more effort in for that high performance is a bad thing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Yes they both lead to the same end goal but one is decidedly more fun than the other

When you have filler would you rather press 111111111 or press your buttons as a DPS

sure you can spreadsheet healer CD’s and DPS rotations but just because you can get both down mostly to the GCD doesn’t mean the healer side is remotely fun to actually execute and it’s unfair to say “well few people play healer so they should just accept the terrible design”

---

I said this months ago so I’ll say this again. What is the solution that the general consensus want for a healer for DPS. I’ll literally seeing that healer has many DPS tools in hand, in game, right now and possibly getting more in Dawntrail. What do ppl ACTUALLY want? Cause if it’s a rotation DPS, that’s never ever going to happen. Throw that out. The 111111 argument. It’s here to stay. I don’t see them changing that at all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Osmond

What do ppl ACTUALLY want?

---

I think it's been made clear a lot of times what people want.

WHM becomes the powerhouse healer again. SCH gets back resource, timer and pet management. AST gets unique cards back.

That said, wanting the entire playerbase to come to a consensus is a fool's errand. There is no possible way to get a crowd that big to completely agree on anything. Even Kaiten who a large amount of SAM mains have lamented losing also has a few naysayers who are glad it's gone.

Healers want more impactful choices in terms of resources to spend, tactical decisions between healing or dpsing which means less healing OGCDs and safety nets like lilies and ED and whatnot. Which probably implies to reintroduce a lot of chaos inside fights, else it's probably just gonna be like fixing a leak by putting a bucket under it.

I might even want SCH to make DoTs as a resource. Abilities that do something else when the target is afflicted with a damage over time effect.. Heck even adding another DoT GCD and more interaction to it. Make Broil like what it was way back in ARR... the absolute filler when all dots are ticking, and the fairy can handle all the healing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rawker

I might even want SCH to make DoTs as a resource. Abilities that do something else when the target is afflicted with a damage over time effect.. Heck even adding another DoT GCD and more interaction to it. Make Broil like what it was way back in ARR... the absolute filler when all dots are ticking, and the fairy can handle all the healing.

---

Never going to happen. Seen many responses, going back to past content. The devs not going to reverse that. More like going to remove DoTs for good at some point. To be honest, I can also see ED being removed this time now that it doesn’t heal MP. Just a tool used to weave in after ruin 2 or a potency dump. I play SCH and I’m coming to this conclusion in this current expansion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Osmond

Never going to happen. Seen many responses, going back to past content. The devs not going to reverse that. More like going to remove DoTs for good at some point. To be honest, I can also see ED being removed this time now that it doesn’t heal MP. Just a tool used to weave in after ruin 2 or a potency dump. I play SCH and I’m coming to this conclusion in this current expansion.

---

If that is the case then i guess it's been a good ride, SE. Time to move on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rawker

If that is the case then i guess it's been a good ride, SE. Time to move on.

---

I just view SCH from ARR to now. Ppl complained that it’s DoTs getting weaker each expansion, yet somehow become a stronger job un-ironically. Some ppl left, more joined. I don’t try to expect things to stay the same, nor that I want to. I just ended up playing it and understand the why. Then realized that past abilities wouldn’t work by the current game design.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Osmond

I just view SCH from ARR to now. Ppl complained that it’s DoTs getting weaker each expansion, yet somehow become a stronger job un-ironically. Some ppl left, more joined. I don’t try to expect things to stay the same, nor that I want to. I just ended up playing it and understand the why. Then realized that past abilities wouldn’t work by the current game design.

---

Not a lot of what scholar once had doesn't work in modern FFXIV. Leeches would be redundant assuming Esuna stays a role action. Sustain doesn't work since pets no longer have HP. And Selene's attack speed buffs would not fit into the more strict burst style rotations every job has. But beyond that, I don't see anything else being a conflict to the current design of the game.