FFXI Dragoon No invites repeated

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Originally Posted by Velhart

Fair enough. On that note however, 1.xx I think overall is just a pain in the ass to balance and just dealing with any stacking setups I go into right now. I have confidence my DRG will shine in 2.0. 1.xx itself is just one big cluttered unbalanced mess in my opinion.

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Very true, but I wish I could share your optimism. :D

SE can balance things as much as they want. What they can't do is change the community's perception.

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Originally Posted by Eekiki

Very true, but I wish I could share your optimism. :D

SE can balance things as much as they want. What they can't do is change the community's perception.

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In one of Yoshida's interviews he did mention that there would be alterations in the combo systems with there being (using the terms that stuck in my memory, it's an interview in french which is in the french translation thread) 'multiple combo trees' a thing that does not exists right now (like, possible a single ability recieving combo bonuses from two different abilities, so depending on which started it, it has a different effect).

That alone is a good sign that they are going to further alter the battle system.

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Originally Posted by Eekiki

Very true, but I wish I could share your optimism. :D

SE can balance things as much as they want. What they can't do is change the community's perception.

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Well how I look at it, and can't speak on behalf of the developers. I think their attempt at revamping the balance of stats and abilities is way too complex for them and all this is, it is enough programming and switch around to make it work and hold us over till 2.0. Or rather, a way of getting feedback in some way.

We also have Battle Regimens coming back, which sound like FFXI's skillchains so far. Maybe going back to the WS > WS > Skillchain > Magic Burst setup. In 2.0, I just see a bunch of opportunities for the game to make each DPS shine.

Pfft: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l=1#post755639
For what it's worth, it appears that the currently most difficult fight in the game actually has a lot of dragoons :D

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Originally Posted by AmyNeudaiz

No, this is more along the lines of "Oh, you want to work for me? Oh, I'm sorry you're black. I don't hire blacks."

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No actually its more like "we want to hire this guy because he's more flexible than the other guy" and fyi its african american i find the term "blacks" kinda offensive.

Also would like to point out the only content you HAVE to have a blm on is CC AV and garuda. the content you need a drg on is Garuda and Ifrit extreme (the two hardest fights in the game)
you content you Have to have a monk on is... AV
not sure why drgs are complaining more than monks but ok...

Ifrit's Harpoon
Macro Command
/equip mh "Ifrit's Harpoon"
Company Seal Exchange
SSC 2,800

Lancer's Arm (Main Hand)

Requires: Lancer
Required Level: 50
Damage: 151 (Piercing: 100%)
Delay: 3.5s (Attacks: 1)
DPS: 43.14

MINE, leveling lancer! ;)

Here's something to blow your mind:

When Ifrit was introduced people only wanted Lancers for it because it can attack while being just out of seer range. Fast forward, people decided LNC/DRG was no longer viable for the fight for some odd reason and only want THM/BLM setups.

Now, in Ifrit Extreme, we're always using DRG again, yet people still shout for BLM only for Hard (and Extreme people are trying to do it as a BLM setup even though pretty much every victory I've done was a Melee setup.)

So no you can't "make your own party" because the XIV community is so coddled by easy mode they refuse to deter from it, which is the one of the reasons 2.0 will fail and why SE adding new classes and jobs is a waste of time. You can make your own party if you wish, but you can be guaranteed you'll get less people or people to stick around if you're doing anything other than WAR/WHM(2)/BLM/BRD setups of varying numbers.

People also say "well do it with your linkshell."

Unless it's a linkshell you created or were in that isn't comprised of the general XIV community, you even find "THM/BLM ONLY!" in shells as well because "it's most efficient". Though to be fair, 1% of the blame falls onto SE making speed runs which people find BLM stacking best for.

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Originally Posted by Malix

No actually its more like "we need technicians for this job and we don't need retail" and fyi its african american i find the term "blacks" kinda offensive.

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In this game that's not really the case. There are almost no instances where one DD is actually better than another and I'll name all those fights. Both AV bosses, Ifrit Extreme. That's about it. All other fights you can come as whatever and do perfectly fine. As a matter of fact, I've known 2 people who only came as DRG on Coincounter and they did awesome and never got hit by 100 ton swing so your point isn't exactly good either.
Also, as a Hispanic American I wouldn't get offended if someone made note of my skin color (although I do look pretty white). You really need some desensitizing. And that was meant to be portrayed as something a racist would say, it's an example don't flip out.

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Originally Posted by AmyNeudaiz

In this game that's not really the case. There are almost no instances where one DD is actually better than another and I'll name all those fights. Both AV bosses, Ifrit Extreme. That's about it. All other fights you can come as whatever and do perfectly fine. As a matter of fact, I've known 2 people who only came as DRG on Coincounter and they did awesome and never got hit by 100 ton swing so your point isn't exactly good either.
Also, as a Hispanic American I wouldn't get offended if someone made note of my skin color (although I do look pretty white). You really need some desensitizing. And that was meant to be portrayed as something a racist would say, it's an example don't flip out.

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go fight Chimera on melee and tell me how that works out for you

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Originally Posted by Malix

go fight Chimera on melee and tell me how that works out for you

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I have since Chimera fight patch. Works fine if you're not retarded.

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No actually its more like "we want to hire this guy because he's more flexible than the other guy"

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To which you just crossed the line between game and employment, which really means I don't want to play with you anyways.

Please try to remember that this is recreation, and not, in fact, a job. I work two jobs already and I most defiantly do not treat FFXIV as a third.

More over, this is more like high school cliques than it is either of those examples. 'Being flexible' excuse is irrelevant if the job is done and the job is done well.

Class stacking = Racism isn't adequate because in most situations, this isn't an irrational hatred.

What it is is laziness coupled with group mentality common to teenagers. They don't want to take the risk because they don't want to have to adjust, think, or work. One part immaturity, one part conformism, one part efficiency obsession.

None of which are attitudes I'm interested in entertaining.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Here's something to blow your mind:

When Ifrit was introduced people only wanted Lancers for it because it can attack while being just out of seer range. Fast forward, people decided LNC/DRG was no longer viable for the fight for some odd reason and only want THM/BLM setups.

Now, in Ifrit Extreme, we're always using DRG again, yet people still shout for BLM only for Hard (and Extreme people are trying to do it as a BLM setup even though pretty much every victory I've done was a Melee setup.)

So no you can't "make your own party" because the XIV community is so coddled by easy mode they refuse to deter from it, which is the one of the reasons 2.0 will fail and why SE adding new classes and jobs is a waste of time. You can make your own party if you wish, but you can be guaranteed you'll get less people or people to stick around if you're doing anything other than WAR/WHM(2)/BLM/BRD setups of varying numbers.

People also say "well do it with your linkshell."

Unless it's a linkshell you created or were in that isn't comprised of the general XIV community, you even find "THM/BLM ONLY!" in shells as well because "it's most efficient". Though to be fair, 1% of the blame falls onto SE making speed runs which people find BLM stacking best for.

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and heres where the problem lies there are some fights where specific DDs are needed and there are fights where they can be done with any DD but one setup is more optimal. example, Ifrit (hard): optimal with blm DD but any DD is fine, Ifrit (Extreme): Need DRGs and MNKS to break horns. If people want to go the more optimal route its thier choice how they want to form a party, you cant consider it a job beause they arent paying them and they spend the same amount of money on this game per month as you do, pretty much they can ask for naked ppl to join only and run around naked in ifrit and theres not a single thing you can do about it nor are they wrong for doing so. I personally think that except for a few fights you can use whatever DD you want but will it be optimal depends on what the fight mechanics are.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

To which you just crossed the line between game and employment, which really means I don't want to play with you anyways.

Please try to remember that this is recreation, and not, in fact, a job. I work two jobs already and I most defiantly do not treat FFXIV as a third.

More over, this is more like high school cliques than it is either of those examples. 'Being flexible' excuse is irrelevant if the job is done and the job is done well.

Class stacking = Racism isn't adequate because in most situations, this isn't an irrational hatred.

What it is is laziness coupled with group mentality common to teenagers. They don't want to take the risk because they don't want to have to adjust, think, or work. One part immaturity, one part conformism, one part efficiency obsession.

None of which are attitudes I'm interested in entertaining.

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wow really i mean comon, your just ridding coat tails now. i wasnt the one who compared it to a job first i was just giving amy i better example similar to what she posted. you may not have noticed this but really your insulting amy not me but w/e not like we play on the same server anyways or that i care that you "dont want to play with me" bcz guess what this isnt kindergarden and no you dont have all the cookies.

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Originally Posted by Malix

wow really i mean comon, your just ridding coat tails now. i wasnt the one who compared it to a job first i was just giving amy i better example similar to what she posted. you may not have noticed this but really your insulting amy not me but w/e not like we play on the same server anyways or that i care that you "dont want to play with me" bcz guess what this isnt kindergarden and no you dont have all the cookies.

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I'm not insulted, don't speak for me and Hyrist has a valid point of view on the subject, albeit taking the examples a little too literally.

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Originally Posted by AmyNeudaiz

I have since Chimera fight patch. Works fine if you're not retarded.

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Really im curious as to what setup you used and how you were able to predict when he tps while dodging the plumes and somehow manage to kill the tons of adds he spawns and managing to pull off 17min run. I'm just curious cuz ive never seen it done but i suppose its possible?

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Originally Posted by AmyNeudaiz

No, this is more along the lines of "Oh, you want to work for me? Oh, I'm sorry you're black. I don't hire blacks."

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

To which you just crossed the line between game and employment, which really means I don't want to play with you anyways.

Please try to remember that this is recreation, and not, in fact, a job. I work two jobs already and I most defiantly do not treat FFXIV as a third.

More over, this is more like high school cliques than it is either of those examples. 'Being flexible' excuse is irrelevant if the job is done and the job is done well.

Class stacking = Racism isn't adequate because in most situations, this isn't an irrational hatred.

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I'm not a rocket scientist or anything but it sounds like she's insulting you.

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Originally Posted by Malix

go fight Chimera on melee and tell me how that works out for you

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Actually we did the fight with MNK's. Never got hit from poison because stun effects are a lot more frequent than they are before since the hotfix. Chimera didn't get much of an opportunity to get his Scorpion Stings in. We took it down much faster than a BLM burn party. I think we might use that setup when we start doing the 17 minute speed runs. WAR/MNK setup in hopes to get the tail off.

Overall, melee can fight Chimera just fine. BLM is just safer, that is all.

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Originally Posted by Malix

Really im curious as to what setup you used and how you were able to predict when he tps while dodging the plumes and somehow manage to kill the tons of adds he spawns and managing to pull off 17min run. I'm just curious cuz ive never seen it done but i suppose its possible?

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1 PLD 1 DRG (me) 2 BRD 2 WHM 2 BLM.
PLD sets up so that Chimera's ass isn't in the sand traps which allows me easily combo and keep constant dps on Chimera. BLM's and 1 BRD on the rear end of Chimera. BLM's Fire > Fira the adds and BRD buffs and heals the BLM's while keeping dps on Chimera. WHM's on the other side so they aren't out of range to heal the PLD and BRD keeps up MP song for WHM's while DPSing Chimera and picking off stray adds that the BLM's miss.
It's easy if you stay on the side of Chimera against the wall, if you keep getting hurt there's Life Surge and Second Wind if not then all the more to you, just keep an eye on the log and it's not a predicting game, more of a "are you paying attention" type of deal. Also, I never mentioned 17 minute runs. This was a normal speed run with a pick up party.

Ta-da it's a non-BLM stack.

Also this works too.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

Actually we did the fight with MNK's. Never got hit from poison because stun effects are a lot more frequent than they are before since the hotfix. Chimera didn't get much of an opportunity to get his Scorpion Stings in. We took it down much faster than a BLM burn party. I think we might use that setup when we start doing the 17 minute speed runs. WAR/MNK setup in hopes to get the tail off.

Overall, melee can fight Chimera just fine. BLM is just safer, that is all.

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And to this:

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Class stacking = Racism isn't adequate because in most situations, this isn't an irrational hatred.

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Originally Posted by Malix

I'm not a rocket scientist or anything but it sounds like she's insulting you.

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No, this is not an insulting remark.

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Originally Posted by AmyNeudaiz

1 PLD 1 DRG (me) 2 BRD 2 WHM 2 BLM.
PLD sets up so that Chimera's ass isn't in the sand traps which allows me easily combo and keep constant dps on Chimera. BLM's and 1 BRD on the rear end of Chimera. BLM's Fire > Fira the adds and BRD buffs and heals the BLM's while keeping dps on Chimera. WHM's on the other side so they aren't out of range to heal the PLD and BRD keeps up MP song for WHM's while DPSing Chimera and picking off stray adds that the BLM's miss.
It's easy if you stay on the side of Chimera against the wall, if you keep getting hurt there's Life Surge and Second Wind if not then all the more to you, just keep an eye on the log and it's not a predicting game, more of a "are you paying attention" type of deal. Also, I never mentioned 17 minute runs. This was a normal speed run with a pick up party.

Ta-da it's a non-BLM stack.

Also this works too.




And to this:



No, this is not an insulting remark.

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I see what your saying wi th still keeping some blms less optimal but i guess it gets the job done. from my understanding you were stacking melee but it looks like you only went with one which is fine i suppose. For the seond comment i was refering to the entire qoute(mostly the first sentence) and obviously her talking about class stacking isnt an insult but i thought u knew what part of that i ment.

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Originally Posted by Malix

I see what your saying wi th still keeping some blms less optimal but i guess it gets the job done. from my understanding you were stacking melee but it looks like you only went with one which is fine i suppose. For the seond comment i was refering to the entire qoute(mostly the first sentence) and obviously her talking about class stacking isnt an insult but i thought u knew what part of that i ment.

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No, I said Melee works and I gave you my example. I also quoted Velhart's set up since it's all MNK and it's an even better example to my point.
Also, I fail to see how the first sentence is insulting to me. I wasn't the one who brought up employment.

Immature reaction to my post:

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Originally Posted by Malix

wow really i mean comon, your just ridding coat tails now. i wasnt the one who compared it to a job first i was just giving amy i better example similar to what she posted. you may not have noticed this but really your insulting amy not me but w/e not like we play on the same server anyways or that i care that you "dont want to play with me" bcz guess what this isnt kindergarden and no you dont have all the cookies.

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Mature reaction to my post:

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Originally Posted by AmyNeudaiz

I'm not insulted, don't speak for me and Hyrist has a valid point of view on the subject, albeit taking the examples a little too literally.

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Malix, you took my statement personally, and I apologize. The usage of the word 'you' was a general sense, not a personal attack.

However, on the subject of 'cookies'. I'm not interested in the cookies. I'm interested in the company I keep. That's the standard I run by.

I'd rather still be working towards loot with a group of friends that I enjoy playing with in spite of our losses, then sitting here in Quad Melds, Darklight and a Relic weapon by keeping company with people who tick me off, but are good at the game. Ultimately, when I'm done with this game, what I'll be left with is memories, not the loot. While I'm still playing, the items that I obtain will be either enriched or tainted by those memories of obtaining them and using them. A Darklight obtained by a run that pissed me off will always look dirty to me. Where as a chance item that was won by blind luck with friends I enjoy, but may even have been holding me and others back will feel all the more triumphant.

I enjoy the challenge of imperfection. I also enjoy the personal interaction with my friends and LS mates as we work together to improve each as individuals with our own goals and desires.

I'm almost going to regret putting down my Hart +1 when I get something superior, and I'll probably bust a few more of them trying to make an Epic Hart +1 with a bunch of crazy melds on it, just to play around with occasionally and hang up in my House once we get weapon's racks and housing in 2.0.

So, back on topic. The craze of people who want to rush for loot, to me, have their priorities different than I do. I view those priorities as skewed away from what you should value as a human being, but I do not begrudge them for it. I'm content to wait until I find someone more accepting, or even of similar views to my own.

In the meanwhile, I continue to do what I can to improve myself until the opportunity knocks. Plenty of materia in the game to detonate, after all.

Oh boy, no wonder some of you don't get invited as DRG.

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Originally Posted by AmyNeudaiz

No, I said Melee works and I gave you my example. I also quoted Velhart's set up since it's all MNK and it's an even better example to my point.
Also, I fail to see how the first sentence is insulting to me. I wasn't the one who brought up employment.

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i can see melee working forgot to take into account he had warriors for the adds i guess. and you did bring up the employment thing. remember when you said and i Quote "No, this is more along the lines of "Oh, you want to work for me? Oh, I'm sorry you're black. I don't hire blacks.""
. all i did was change what u said to make it more practical to the situation but YOU are the one that compared it to hiring process of a job.

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Originally Posted by Malix

i can see melee working forgot to take into account he had warriors for the adds i guess. and you did bring up the employment thing. remember when you said and i Quote "No, this is more along the lines of "Oh, you want to work for me? Oh, I'm sorry you're black. I don't hire blacks.""
. all i did was change what u said to make it more practical to the situation but YOU are the one that compared it to hiring process of a job.

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I said that in reply to this.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

Uhh, what?

You get hired for a job. The boss tells you what you need to do, because he runs the place. You don't like it. So what do you do? You either deal with it, go find a job that caters to you, or start your own business where you can make your own rules.

Is this the analogy you were looking for?

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Like I said, not the one who brought it up. My analogy was in reply to another analogy.
Are you blind?

And why are you even arguing this??? Like seriously dude you gotta be the worst troll ever.

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Originally Posted by AmyNeudaiz

I said that in reply to this.



Like I said, not the one who brought it up. My analogy was in reply to another analogy.
Are you blind?

And why are you even arguing this??? Like seriously dude you gotta be the worst troll ever.

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The troll calling someone else the worst troll ever while being trolled?

You can't really stick to a one job mentality in a game where your character can play any job. The game is designed and balanced around that fact, and certain fights will always have some jobs perform better.

If you were allotted one job, the roles would be much more defined and you would get less jobs. (What's the point in having 20 jobs if 6 get the job done, a question you can even ask in a game where you can level any job)

Is BLM/THM the best way to do Ifrit(Hard)? Not really, it is safe though.

If you do prefer to have one job, you limit the content you can participate in and limit the availability of that content to you. If a group has all the DD's it needs and requires a BRD then you're unable to participate. If you want to PUG Hamlet, most people require the DOH/DOL jobs.

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Originally Posted by AmyNeudaiz

Hi, you appear to not understand how the FFXIV community works nor do you appear to understand how people work.
This can be compared to (but not equatable to by far) sexism. "If you don't like that you can't vote, move to a different country."
Now you have something to base how others view discrimination of varying degrees, have a good day.

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Your example is horrible, nobody ask you to leave FFXIV because you want to go DRG.


Here, if i setup a party in my house with a formal dresscode, i fully expect people to dress formally and not in pajamas.

If you want a pajamas party then setup one yourself because nobody says you can't wear pajamas in this neighborhood, it's just not welcome in my party and you have no right to be shittalking my party just because you do not like the formal dresscode rules.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

Your example is horrible, nobody ask you to leave FFXIV because you want to go DRG.


Here, if i setup a party in my house with a formal dresscode, i fully expect people to dress formally and not in pajamas.

If you want a pajamas party then setup one yourself because nobody says you can't wear pajamas in this neighborhood, it's just not welcome in my party and you have no right to be shittalking my party just because you do not like the formal dresscode rules.

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<---- (this is the point)
O (this is your head)

In case you don't understand this, http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/go+over+head it's the second definition.
Seriously is it that hard to not nit pick an analogy?

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Originally Posted by Churchill

You can't really stick to a one job mentality in a game where your character can play any job. The game is designed and balanced around that fact, and certain fights will always have some jobs perform better.

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Actually, currently, the game is designed around the concept of creating a challenging yet winnable fight with 1 of each current job in the party plus a flex spot. That's how the actual designers of the game balance and play-test the game.

This is evidenced in their Howling Eye Trailer.

So yes, it's very possible that you can stick to one Class in this game and be successful. (Albeit, slower.)Will there always be better classes for specific fights? Sure, but that's irrelevant to the fact that the fights are conquerable with a varied set up. Being denied content is due to job saturation and player efficiency obsessions, which usually end up as a false pretense anyways. It's a player issue, not a design issue.

A competent, geared DRG will out-damage an incompetent or under-geared BLM in most cases regardless of context. The issue is of course people are tossing out invites before meeting or knowing the persons in question - thus is the dangers of PUGs to begin with.


I do not consider DoL&H to be full on classes in their own right for battle combat, Hamlet being an exception. The content for the most part for those sections are exclusive of each other. Having them is beneficial as much to those who stick with single combat classes as multiple.

I'm well aware of the mentality of Pick Up Groups. But the concept behind them is efficiently obsessed to the point of exploitation, if they can reach it. BLMs and Garuda were the perfect example before that was patched. Even Chimera was adjusted to make it more difficult for non-melees.

Issues with party invites, however, should fall by the wayside with Content Finder if it operates properly, which makes this conversation moot.

We aren't, or I'm not, arguing efficiency or situational choices (being, shit BLM vs awesome DRG)

If you have one job, you limit your availability. If you only play DRG, and your group has 4 other DD's, then someone will always be sitting, especially if they have limited jobs as well. This can be compounded by the fact you may not be as good as someone else and sit even more. I would personally rather participate than play one class; especially true for PUG events as DD spots are usually limited when those are formed.

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Originally Posted by Churchill

We aren't, or I'm not, arguing efficiency or situational choices (being, shit BLM vs awesome DRG)

If you have one job, you limit your availability. If you only play DRG, and your group has 4 other DD's, then someone will always be sitting, especially if they have limited jobs as well. This can be compounded by the fact you may not be as good as someone else and sit even more. I would personally rather participate than play one class; especially true for PUG events as DD spots are usually limited when those are formed.

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You're right, and no one in particular is arguing that fact.

If you only leveled one job and it's direct subs you're only available for one spot in a party instead of 3-4. (spots being tank/dd/healer/support... etc)

That doesn't change the fact that due to current MMO trends, PuGs take the path of least resistance. In this case, having a party of WAR, WHM, BRD, BLM. Despite a DRG or MNK being as capable as a BLM as a DD.

Well i always look for paties when theyre starting to add ppls, so i can be the job that i want, and ussually i dont have any trouble, but you could make the party and be what you want, its your party its your rules, besides if you have a good ls, they will let you be what you want in any content they do, there are several strats for every fight.

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Originally Posted by Churchill

We aren't, or I'm not, arguing efficiency or situational choices (being, shit BLM vs awesome DRG)

If you have one job, you limit your availability. If you only play DRG, and your group has 4 other DD's, then someone will always be sitting, especially if they have limited jobs as well. This can be compounded by the fact you may not be as good as someone else and sit even more. I would personally rather participate than play one class; especially true for PUG events as DD spots are usually limited when those are formed.

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Then your entire argument is a red herring.

Having multiple jobs does not effect the individual effectiveness of a job to preform a task, as the game is balanced with the concept of a varied (read: one of every current job) composition party. So having multiple jobs available is irrelevant, the issue is a player conceived notion of job stacking to follow the course of least resistance, as was stated repeatedly, is the matter of discussion.

Stating that having multiple jobs means you're more likely to get access to runs is like saying having multiple characters grants you access to more runs in any MMO that only permits one class/job choice per character. It's irrelevant to class balance, and also irrelevant to participation problems for specific classes.

An analogy: The bridge across a main body of water is out due to neglect. You can bypass the problem because you purchased a ferry to take you back and forth. This does not change the fact that the bridge is out, and telling people "Buy a ferry, you'll never have to take the bridge!" can be both unappealing and/or cost prohibitive for many other people.

But just because they have to take a detour does not mean they won't get to the destination.

Personally, the only solution to class stacking is going to be bonuses that promote varied builds. I've a distinct feeling that Battle Regime's may very well be this bonus.

You know, Hyrist, Churchill's point is correct but not relevant to the point of the thread. If you have a tank and a DD leveled, you will get more parties (You won't get more parties on your DD per se but, the previous statement is still true)

It boils down to the presumtion that ranged DD's are easier to play. Combined with the less than inviting social atmosphere in the game the problem compounds. It creates this situation where players will go with "safe" and "easy" methods when it comes to inviting strangers to join difficult content.

lol red herring. I'm bringing up a relevant fact for anyone who wants to be a job purist because invariably said purist will get invited to less parties, participate in less content and make more threads complaining about how his jobs are getting fucked. It doesn't really matter why, it could be everyone wrongly thinks that his job sucks (or rightly) or it could be that every group already has enough of what he has to offer.

The OP addresses a lack of invites on DRG, because the topic was shifted to efficiency and playerbase (read:internet) mentality doesn't damn any discussion of why you aren't getting invited to red herring status.

As far as the class stacking issues, it just takes time to sort itself out. Right now the game has 3 types of people playing, first time MMO'ers, people who quit XI because they hated dirty windower and XI elitism, and people who got tired of abyssea/old game (again XI). No one is playing this because it was such a great and innovative MMO with an amazing launch and this we all know.

When you look at what that means in terms of overall skill, we know it to be low. When you look at this in terms of general knowledge, we also know that to be low. It's only a given that people will take longer to come around to different strategies in PUG runs, and it's a given that people will want strangers to play the safest jobs for PUGs. A Ranged DD doesn't need to know how to read a chat log to combo on a moving or ambiguous target, a ranged DD doesn't have as much chance of running cracks straight into the tank/whm/otherDDs. We all know the examples. BLM is also the most forgiving job gear wise and you can pump out decent enough damage to contribute to a run while naked.

The jobs are close enough now that each one can outperform the other given player skill and the event, this is important because it's pretty rare in MMO's.

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Originally Posted by ShivenCasull

You know, Hyrist, Churchill's point is correct but not relevant to the point of the thread.

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Which would be the definition of Red Herring, yes, I am aware of that.

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Originally Posted by Churchill

lol red herring. I'm bringing up [an obvious fact] for anyone who wants to be a job purist ...

The OP addresses a lack of invites on DRG, because the topic was shifted to efficiency and playerbase (read:internet) mentality doesn't damn any discussion of why you aren't getting invited to red herring status.

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Actually, it really does. It is irrelevant to the topic. You stop playing DRG, you get invites. It does not solve the issue about DRG getting invites. That was the subject raised. Not "I'm not getting invites." He was saying "Dragoon isn't getting invites."

"You can get invites if you're more flexible." Is completely irrelvant to the topic at hand, therefore, a Red Herring.

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As far as the class stacking issues, it just takes time to sort itself out. Right now the game has 3 types of people playing, first time MMO'ers, people who quit XI because they hated dirty windower and XI elitism, and people who got tired of abyssea/old game (again XI). No one is playing this because it was such a great and innovative MMO with an amazing launch and this we all know.

When you look at what that means in terms of overall skill, we know it to be low. When you look at this in terms of general knowledge, we also know that to be low. It's only a given that people will take longer to come around to different strategies in PUG runs, and it's a given that people will want strangers to play the safest jobs for PUGs. A Ranged DD doesn't need to know how to read a chat log to combo on a moving or ambiguous target, a ranged DD doesn't have as much chance of running cracks straight into the tank/whm/otherDDs. We all know the examples. BLM is also the most forgiving job gear wise and you can pump out decent enough damage to contribute to a run while naked.

The jobs are close enough now that each one can outperform the other given player skill and the event, this is important because it's pretty rare in MMO's.

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This part is relevant, as it is in relation to the cause and topic matter. I also agree with it whole heartedly.

We have a prevelent populace of FFXI players, who, for whatever reasons (both speculated upon and not mentioned) prefer the lowest common skill demoninator and path of least resistence when it comes to pick up parties.

I am not so certain that it will willingly 'sort itself out'. Without some change in the mechanics to encourage it, changes we may well see in 2.0.

However, I do agree that skill and gear does a good job of balacing out class performance, which is both rare and a very good thing in MMOs. If Yoshida and crew keeps this line, it will market good health for the game in the long term.

In the short term, there's nothing much for a Dragoon to do other than make his/her own parties, stick with pugs, suck it up, or switch jobs.

A player can bypass this by playing another, more popular job such as BLM, but that does nothing for the invite of Dragoons, as it did nothing for the invite of Dragoons in FFXI.

As a personal sidetrack - I'm not so much of a Job purist as I am an Altiholic. I create characters that I attach to specific identities as I did in my Single Player days. I coulden't switch Cecil back to Paladin just because I thought his skillset was useless in specific fights.

And after finding my favorite composition for my parties in games like FFIII, FFV, FFT, etc. I rarely shifted my group away from their choisen jobs. I found to open job system as a way to create character identity, not destroy it.

So I when I want to be 'flexible' as a player. I do what I did in Single Player games - I utalize a cast of characters. I willingly take the hit in gear availablity and droprate. But it seems Yoshi and crew have made Crafted gear pretty darn powerful in the game, so I'll either have one character with all the crafts, or split up the crafts between my characters, and make good crafted gear for them until oppertunity knocks for them to get a chance at drops.

I find that sort of approach fun, as odd as it sounds. And I'm really glad I got Legacy Status to support it, because I likely would not think it worthwhile to do otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

I am not so certain that it will willingly 'sort itself out'. Without some change in the mechanics to encourage it, changes we may well see in 2.0.

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As the game community as a whole recovers and develops, certain stigmas and currently unknown tactics will become known to more players. The average skill level of the player would increase as a result of guides being available and mechanics being set in stone etc.

Battle mechanics need to favor using different types of DDs without making the combat system overly complex.

In short, I agree, this was one of the main reasons why I quit XI.

Also to mention, we will get a lot of non-FFXI vet players into the game who have a whole different ideal on how to approach MMO's, which may blend together and flex things out a little more.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

Also to mention, we will get a lot of non-FFXI vet players into the game who have a whole different ideal on how to approach MMO's, which may blend together and flex things out a little more.

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Yeah, no. I joined up a new linkshell of a bunch of FFXI players who made the hop over to help them out and they all gave me plenty of respect and listened to to the advice I gave, but once those few words passed through the text chat "I never played XI" instantly all the advice I give is bad. I can see there's some of that all around at least on my server as well.
I can already feel any credibility I have on this forum withering away just by typing that.

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Originally Posted by AmyNeudaiz

Yeah, no. I joined up a new linkshell of a bunch of FFXI players who made the hop over to help them out and they all gave me plenty of respect and listened to to the advice I gave, but once those few words passed through the text chat "I never played XI" instantly all the advice I give is bad. I can see there's some of that all around at least on my server as well.
I can already feel any credibility I have on this forum withering away just by typing that.

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Tell them you beat Contra without using the 30 man code. That oughta get 'em back on your side.