Yay, i get to play my job with no changes for another 2+ years...

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Warrior had nothing to bring to the table to protect others.

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Are you seriously saying that the tank that could bring a permanent 10% damage down on the opponent brings nothing to protect the team?

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Originally Posted by Gemina

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I'm not saying It should go back to stormblood, More of a Shadowbringers with some more spice would strike the perfect balance for me where jobs still felt pretty different enough, I'm not really the biggest fan of current tank stances, but that's more because tanks didn't really get much to replace it and less I think Stormblood stances were good, infact tanks got dumbed down more and more and now are just slow boring dps that all feel samey.

In the end of the day I think the argument of gatekeeping makes sense, but EW was terrible for that during 6.2, when everyjob plays the same you might aswell bring the Job that's able to slightly do more damage, you can never fully 100% avoid gatekeepers, trying to balance out the very soul of Jobs for the sake of gate keeping does come at a hefty price of Enjoyment which I think FF14's current EW design just plays it so safe that theirs no real point of actually caring about your Job when it's so similar to every other job, I think it's a balancing act, which again I think if we were back to something like shadowbringers but more risky (aka a inbetween point of SB-SHB) then we could strike a balance that actually pleases the most amount of people.

I'll be honest I'm in the camp of I rather have more fun and Intresting Jobs then more balanced jobs with less gatekeeping, but I can really understand that theirs a point where if Job design becomes too wacky that a hard meta can form and people will get gatekept more often then not for following that meta. I'm with you at least I think they need to strike a balance between intresting job design but also it's not at a point where gatekeeping is common

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

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Imagine if healers actually had to sometimes GCD heal so Jobs like PLD, DNC ect. Could actually save gcds and help healers I'd like that but we know that's not going to happen... I just wish it was more team work based, like big pulls for example should be a healer and tank effort not just one tank being able to solo a massive pull because aoe healing... But that's current ff14.

Also yeah Warriors identity just seems really weird, it's funny how it heals the team more then a paladin does, it feels so weird to me, I get nascent flash to a extent (personally i think war should only be able to mit for other party members), but shake it off is so odd, confused why they of all tanks are the "healer tank" personally I feel like a enemy intimidation (like a stronger reprisal) would make way more sense.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

Are you seriously saying that the tank that could bring a permanent 10% damage down on the opponent brings nothing to protect the team?

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That was PLD (STR Down) and DRK (INT Down). WAR's was increasing the damage output of the party, not increasing party mitigation. Regardless, these were damage type-specific and usually a DPS loss to use.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

That was PLD (STR Down) and DRK (INT Down). WAR's was increasing the damage output of the party, not increasing party mitigation. Regardless, these were damage type-specific and usually a DPS loss to use.

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Storm's Path was a 10% all damage down until they changed it to give gauge. So all of HW.

When it was changed to give gauge, WAR got Shake it Off to compensate.

I am just gonna wait on someone to leak all the DT job abilities like in EW or for the media tour NDA to be lifted to be worried about a 3rd expansion of ShB job design.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

I'll be honest I'm in the camp of I rather have more fun and Intresting Jobs then more balanced jobs with less gatekeeping, but I can really understand that theirs a point where if Job design becomes too wacky that a hard meta can form and people will get gatekept more often then not for following that meta. I'm with you at least I think they need to strike a balance between intresting job design but also it's not at a point where gatekeeping is common

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We are in complete agreement, but therein lies the dilemma. This balance does require a certain developmental standpoint from the dev team, but it also requires for players to let go of the meta, which they will never do. There are a lot of players who are obsessed with optimization and I am not sure when players will realize how harmful this mindset can be. The current state of the game is a direct result of it, but they are all so quick to point the finger at the dev team. That does not absolve the devs from the accountability. I'm just pointing out that this is a two-way street and the players are also at fault here. A game is supposed to be challenging, but it is also supposed to be fun.

EW is a double down of ShB. Even if I am to be understanding that making a choice in the direction of game design is especially difficult, I can think of a lot more good things that were taken away from Stormblood than I can think of good things that were added in EW. Easily. EW took things too far in this direction without question. This is where I definitely fault the dev team and Yoshi. The last couple of years has made me grow to hate inclusivity as much as exclusivity. Again, both are opposing extremes that are not healthy for the game or society in general. Balance will only be achieved when the playerbase and the dev team can work with each other instead of against one another. Because we are not there, I would expect more disappointment come Dawntrail from both sides.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

You've been around a long time, according to your forum date? Back in Heavensward, there was a problem with Warrior and Dark Knight, which is they had no utility/party support compared to Paladin. This problem started to be addressed in Stormblood, where Reprisal became a Role Action and Blackest Night was added to Dark Knight so they could protect others.

But that wasn't enough. Warrior had nothing to bring to the table to protect others. It was selfish. In a patch, they transformed Shake It Off into a raid-wide mitigation that could be used to protect others. I was happy they found a way to build upon that in Shadowbringers with Nascent Flash. It was a unique way to go about it, dealing damage to heal others. Different from Paladin. Dare I say, unique and built upon its Bloodbath ability it once had.

(It is unfortunate that they gave Bloodbath away to all the DPS and wrecked that uniqueness, although I find it useful when playing DPS when I get tanks that don't know how to tank.)

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Not the point I was trying to make.

From a thematic standpoint, I don’t understand why Warrior, or really any tank except for Paladin, has party sustain utility. That’s not something I’d attribute to any of the other three tanks, or at least not in the sense of having party healing and barriers.

What would make more sense for warrior would be inflicting a damage dealt down debuff to enemies, or at most a party wide bloodbath.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

This balance does require a certain developmental standpoint from the dev team, but it also requires for players to let go of the meta, which they will never do. There are a lot of players who are obsessed with optimization and I am not sure when players will realize how harmful this mindset can be. The current state of the game is a direct result of it, but they are all so quick to point the finger at the dev team. That does not absolve the devs from the accountability. I'm just pointing out that this is a two-way street and the players are also at fault here. A game is supposed to be challenging, but it is also supposed to be fun.

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I think people need to stop blaming "the meta" for everything. Even in the current state of the game where everything is more or less balanced and every job is completely viable, there still exists a meta, and there will forever be a meta as long as job differences (however minor) exists.

The dev team should really be focused on making jobs that are fun to play with a coherent kit and room to improve while being less concerned about what meta the players are creating. After all, it's no longer HW where the BRD will leave the party if you don't lock in DRG, there's no hyper dependencies anymore.

Of course, if someone decides to join an optimisation party and complain that they have to play a job favoured by the meta, I think it's safe to ignore that kind of complaint.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Also yeah Warriors identity just seems really weird, it's funny how it heals the team more then a paladin does, it feels so weird to me, I get nascent flash to a extent (personally i think war should only be able to mit for other party members), but shake it off is so odd, confused why they of all tanks are the "healer tank" personally I feel like a enemy intimidation (like a stronger reprisal) would make way more sense.

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I've always likened its self-healing to a boxer getting the crap punched out of them and then going back to their corner spitting blood, shaking the head and going back out for the next round. How the game works it just means Warrior can restore its own HP, it's an abstraction of the will to carry on if that makes sense?

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Originally Posted by Mosha

I've always likened its self-healing to a boxer getting the crap punched out of them and then going back to their corner spitting blood, shaking the head and going back out for the next round. How the game works it just means Warrior can restore its own HP, it's an abstraction of the will to carry on if that makes sense?

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It's certainly one of the ways to implement that concept as a gameplay mechanic, I just don't think it's the best for a berserker (which is basically what Warrior is).

In a world of more interesting job design I would like to see it replaced with a stagger mechanic, turning a major portion of damage taken into a damage over time effect instead.
The idea being that when the berserker (or in this case Warrior) works themselves into a battle frenzy they become numb to their injuries until their body eventually just breaks down.
Cooldowns could then either reduce the incoming damage, therefore reducing the DoT damage, or reduce the DoT after damage has been taken to make it survivable.

Granted this idea comes with some potential balance issues.

Stagnation is boring tho.
They could make the job better, like they did SMN.
If not, you could do something else.

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Originally Posted by Bad_Luck

They could make the job better, like they did SMN.

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good job I actually heard the laugh track in my head

If warrior needs to have its party wide mitigation, why is it a shield/heal instead of something that leans more into the berserker/inner beast identity like a Ferocious Roar/Shout that inflicts a damage debuff or something on enemies

I really hope WAR gets more in it's rotation than a single GCD every 1 minute. Feels like I'm still playing the same WAR now as when SHB launched some 5 years ago.

Also really wonder what they're gonna do with healers or if they're just gonna ignore the issues (again).

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Originally Posted by Luluya

If warrior needs to have its party wide mitigation, why is it a shield/heal instead of something that leans more into the berserker/inner beast identity like a Ferocious Roar/Shout that inflicts a damage debuff or something on enemies

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Whilst it would be unique, you have to take into account not all mechanics that could require party mitigation necessarily have a target to debuff, which means you have made an action that is just inferior to all other party mitigations. Even DRK and GNB have criticisms because they only mitigate magical damage as opposed to PLD and WAR that shields all damage.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I think people need to stop blaming "the meta" for everything. Even in the current state of the game where everything is more or less balanced and every job is completely viable, there still exists a meta, and there will forever be a meta as long as job differences (however minor) exists.

The dev team should really be focused on making jobs that are fun to play with a coherent kit and room to improve while being less concerned about what meta the players are creating. After all, it's no longer HW where the BRD will leave the party if you don't lock in DRG, there's no hyper dependencies anymore.

Of course, if someone decides to join an optimisation party and complain that they have to play a job favoured by the meta, I think it's safe to ignore that kind of complaint.

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You're contradicting yourself. You say a meta is unavoidable, yet want the dev team to focus on making jobs fun to play. This game has already experienced a time when jobs weren't so streamlined, individual, unique, and fun. The meta saw to it that many of these jobs were excluded in comps. A meta that forced players to take on jobs they did not care to play in order to be able to participate in the game's more difficult content. If you think I am just going to excuse a poor mentality from gamers, that is as likely to happen as the meta going away. Players are every bit as accountable as the dev team.

Don't get me wrong, I think a meta does have a place in games, but not when gatekeeping is a consequence of it. The more "fun" version of jobs you're referring to creates the hyper dependencies you want to avoid. But I wouldn't call it "hyper dependencies." Euphemisms does not hide what that actually is. I think a meta is fine when it demands optimization from the players willing to participate. IOW, players bring their A game with the job they choose and the group optimizes based on what is truly available to the comp. I'm not even sure if "meta" accurately describes this mentality, because if it was, optimization would be based on the comp, not the reverse.

I find it fascinating that a lot of people who don't engage in certain content always have the most interesting takes.

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Originally Posted by HeyMcFly

I'd like less bloat for black mage and PLD
but what changes would you want to see with WAR? (I've dabbled in playing the class and had fun, but folks who've main'd it might have a difference of opinion)

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Just don't play Black Mage and Paladin.

Literally the most fun of their respective roles. With multiple jobs per role they shouldn't level everyone down to brainfart tier. Every role should have one that is more complex or bloated.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

The thing about warrior is I don’t understand why it has Nascent Flash or a party wide Shake it Off. Literally nothing about the identity of a berserker gives me “supports the party” vibes. I see a fighter who doesn’t care if their teammates live or die, they just fight till they can’t fight anymore.

Inversely, though, I do wish healing utility from jobs like Paladin and Dancer could feel helpful while also not impeding on the healing expected of healers. It’s so hard to add utility to jobs because the game stifles situations where utility can be useful. Silence? No harder fights have any interruptible abilities. Stun/Sleep? Few fights have adds where stun or sleep could be helpful, and even the ones where we do have them, those enemies cannot be CC’d. Esuna? Almost no fights inflict debuffs that can be cleansed. MP refresh? MP is basically just a window decoration at this point. Helping with healing could be another way some jobs could differentiate themselves if healing were something we needed more often.

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In a good designed jRPG some characters or jobs will be better suited for some situations and not optimal for others. A selfish tank that excels in dps while the 2nd tank, like say a paladin, takes care of party mitigation would absolutely work in another game where the "meta" varies by type of content or encounter. Unfortunately CBU3 chose the crappy "one size fits all" approach to its design.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

The meta saw to it that many of these jobs were excluded in comps. A meta that forced players to take on jobs they did not care to play in order to be able to participate in the game's more difficult content.

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When did you experience this and on what datacenter exactly?

I've played during HW and SB on Aether, which was arguably the most raidy and toxic NA DC back then (mostly due to gilgamesh, people will remember), and never have I seen truly, consistently barred jobs from any PF, besides a couple of troll ones (extremely rare, half the time just there to troll and not actually play).

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Originally Posted by Valence

When did you experience this and on what datacenter exactly?

I've played during HW and SB on Aether, which was arguably the most raidy and toxic NA DC back then (mostly due to gilgamesh, people will remember), and never have I seen truly, consistently barred jobs from any PF, besides a couple of troll ones (extremely rare, half the time just there to troll and not actually play).

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There is a "meta" in which comps are taken by early raiding groups, such as week 1 savage, or world-first racing, and speed clear parties with the specific goal of reaching the highest possible parses. Then there's literally everyone else, where job meta has had nearly no impact and has never had any impact ever because regardless of balancing concerns, there have very very rarely been "unviable" jobs. There was never a time where you would regularly see any particular job being excluded from party finders. On very rare occasions, you might come across such a party where job X isn't being allowed into the group. Those groups are always led by someone who has a negative amount of understanding in regards to raiding, googled "best FFXIV raid comp" once, and deemed that mandatory.

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Originally Posted by Valence

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P8S was the most recent example of this during week 1. You probably forgot because of how soft the last tier was. Pretty much any tier with relevant dps checks will lock out weaker jobs in PF at least.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

P8S was the most recent example of this during week 1. You probably forgot because of how soft the last tier was. Pretty much any tier with relevant dps checks will lock out weaker jobs in PF at least.

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For week 1 clears maybe, but how many times have we actually seen the meta enforced or weak jobs excluded for an entire raid tier? Gordias? Certainly wasn't a thing in Sigmascape, Alphascape or the entirety of Eden.

P8S was so egregious exactly because we were supposed to get good balance in exchange for jobs being this boring slop, and they still messed it up.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

You're contradicting yourself. You say a meta is unavoidable, yet want the dev team to focus on making jobs fun to play. This game has already experienced a time when jobs weren't so streamlined, individual, unique, and fun. The meta saw to it that many of these jobs were excluded in comps. A meta that forced players to take on jobs they did not care to play in order to be able to participate in the game's more difficult content. If you think I am just going to excuse a poor mentality from gamers, that is as likely to happen as the meta going away. Players are every bit as accountable as the dev team.

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How is that a contradiction? I want the dev team to focus on making jobs fun to play and ignore the meta created by players because players will create one no matter what. Trying to squash a player-created meta is a waste of time as they'll always make another, it's good enough that they removed hyper dependencies like piercing/slashing debuffs so jobs aren't an auto lock in anymore.

You keep saying players are forced to take on the meta if they intend to do high end content, yet I see a lot of WHM and SGE around in PF despite AST and SCH being meta. You can't just blame the meta for everything you think is wrong, it's the people wielding the meta in a stupid manner that are a problem, not the meta itself.

Like I said in my previous post, if someone is complaining that they're being denied a slot in an optimisation group because they refuse to play a meta job, that's something the dev team can ignore. It's like someone trying to speedrun a game and ignoring speedrun strats then complaining that they're last on the leaderboards.

No, I don't think you can ignore the meta. If there's a large difference in rDPS players will select against weaker jobs. That's not optimization, it's just pragmatism.

There's nothing more frustrating than hitting sub 1% repeatedly and knowing that a job switch will get you past that.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

No, I don't think you can ignore the meta. If there's a large difference in rDPS players will select against weaker jobs. That's not optimization, it's just pragmatism.

There's nothing more frustrating than hitting sub 1% repeatedly and knowing that a job switch will get you past that.

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Job rDPS output can be adjusted easily, job design cannot.

Also, the only actual time this has been a problem was in EW (Abyssos) which is, funnily enough, the expansion where they did the most homogenisation for balance reasons.

Sure, it's easy to adjust, but it needs to be done regardless. rDPS parity should be baseline.

A lot of people don't realize that partial homogenization is worse than complete homogenization.

Why do you even pay attention to XIV hype events? This game never breaks the mold in any way, you can predict just about anything thats going to be in any expansion update, the devs are physically incapable of doing anything that isn't formulaic and the same of what came before.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

Storm's Path was a 10% all damage down until they changed it to give gauge. So all of HW.

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Ok, I didn't remember that because I didn't raid with Warrior in HW and only really used it for the tank mounts at first. I associated Storm's Path with just when I needed to survive stuff with healing.

But my other points still stand - that these combos were DPS losses and that SE viewed Warrior's lack of utility as a problem in Stormblood.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

From a thematic standpoint, I don’t understand why Warrior, or really any tank except for Paladin, has party sustain utility.

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I don't either, but if they're going to have it, doing it different to Paladin's flat out Clemency cast is preferable, because then at least it's unique. Healing via doing damage is at least different, even if it it results in much the same effect.

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What would make more sense for warrior would be inflicting a damage dealt down debuff to enemies

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Unfortunately, we got role actions so all the tanks have Reprisal. They should either get rid of Role Actions but make "actions that serve a similar purpose" for each job, or make the actions in the Role section appear/behave a little differrent depending on the job, just to prevent them being too similar.

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a party wide bloodbath.

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That's a good idea.

As for why the regen was added to Shake, I think it was just because of the raid-wide DoTs in Abyssos and was an attempt to make it compete with Paladin's Divine Veil. But I think a party-wide bloodbath should achieve a similar effect provided there isn't a transition happening.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

Whilst it would be unique, you have to take into account not all mechanics that could require party mitigation necessarily have a target to debuff, which means you have made an action that is just inferior to all other party mitigations. Even DRK and GNB have criticisms because they only mitigate magical damage as opposed to PLD and WAR that shields all damage.

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Yes the tank raidwide mitigations should have differences, right now SIO is just objectively the best mitigation in functionally every situation that’s not terminal relativity or curtain call specifically

Make it so WAR’s mitigation only works when it can hit the boss but in exchange the mitigation is 15% instead of 10 like HOL/DM so that when you can hit the boss it’s mitigation is at an advantage but it’s at a disadvantage when you can’t hit the boss like how HOL/DM are at a disadvantage in that they are useless against physical damage

WAR doesn’t need to have literally the best version of every button that has ever seen the inside of a modern tank kit

We watched and listened to entirely two different panels if that was your take-away from what Yoshida said.

Because i heard: "we want to make content more challenging and rewarding"

Has it even occured to folk that Jobs aren't the problem? but the content itself???

If the content isn't challenging and it's instead mundane and repetitive, then of course the job you play is going to feel terrible, because the content isn't forcing you to think creatively and make decisions on that job you normally wouldn't make.

Yoshida focusing on the content itself is what we actually need; because jobs get tweaked during patches all the time; it's the content that needs to be reworked.

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Originally Posted by Neoyoshi

We watched and listened to entirely two different panels if that was your take-away from what Yoshida said.

Because i heard: "we want to make content more challenging and rewarding"

Has it even occured to folk that Jobs aren't the problem? but the content itself???

If the content isn't challenging and it's instead mundane and repetitive, then of course the job you play is going to feel terrible, because the content isn't forcing you to think creatively and make decisions on that job you normally wouldn't make.

Yoshida focusing on the content itself is what we actually need; because jobs get tweaked during patches all the time; it's the content that needs to be reworked.

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The Job tweaks during an expansion are never major enough to make a massive difference, and in the case of EW it has def been the jobs, even within fun savage content a lot of the jobs feels very lack luster.

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Originally Posted by Neoyoshi

We watched and listened to entirely two different panels if that was your take-away from what Yoshida said.

Because i heard: "we want to make content more challenging and rewarding"

Has it even occured to folk that Jobs aren't the problem? but the content itself???

If the content isn't challenging and it's instead mundane and repetitive, then of course the job you play is going to feel terrible, because the content isn't forcing you to think creatively and make decisions on that job you normally wouldn't make.

Yoshida focusing on the content itself is what we actually need; because jobs get tweaked during patches all the time; it's the content that needs to be reworked.

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The jobs have no on the fly decision making as they are because they are so incredibly static

The only job that has a sense of remote choice left is BLM organising when to use its instacasts, the rest it doesn’t matter what hat the content throws at you because there is only one way to play the job (this extends to both casual and high end content)

The content needs to be better but the jobs are incredibly stale and need to be fixed, healers are a perfect example of this, old content, new content, casual content, high end content healers are boring and stale because the jobs are fundamentally flawed

Focusing everything on the content just leads to our current situation we are in now

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Originally Posted by Neoyoshi

We watched and listened to entirely two different panels if that was your take-away from what Yoshida said.

Because i heard: "we want to make content more challenging and rewarding"

Has it even occured to folk that Jobs aren't the problem? but the content itself???

If the content isn't challenging and it's instead mundane and repetitive, then of course the job you play is going to feel terrible, because the content isn't forcing you to think creatively and make decisions on that job you normally wouldn't make.

Yoshida focusing on the content itself is what we actually need; because jobs get tweaked during patches all the time; it's the content that needs to be reworked.

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With content, FFXIV has a very wide variety of types of content ranging from solo MSQ instances to dungeons to extreme trials to savage raids and to alternative combat experiences like deep dungeons or field operations. Each example here as well as all other types of content has a specific expectation of the player that must be met. Depending on the skill of the player, some content will undoubtably be too easy on its own and not be sufficiently entertaining. Players who do savage, for example, are going to have a hard time finding the difficulty of dungeons entertaining by their own merit, because the environment is so much slower. For other players, that might be totally fine and adequately challenging because their experience with the game is more limited.

Job gameplay, on the other hand, has the unique quality of having flexible requirements. Because unlike combat mechanics, your job's mechanics are not pass/fail. In nearly every corner of FFXIV's content, it doesn't matter how perfectly or how poorly you perform your job's mechanics, because most fights only care about the mechanics of the fight itself. In other words, job complexity offers the unique advantage of allowing you to meet it at whatever threshold you are willing to strive for, provided the job in question offers enough complexity for one to actually pursue. Fights cannot do this because they do not have optional mechanics that can be ignored by someone less experienced or simply less interested in challenging their gameplay.

Having content that is less demanding, but jobs that are easy to play as a standard level, yet offer more complex elements in order to master offers a much wider range of satisfying engagement for players of varying skill levels.

Bushnell's Law: "The best video games are easy to play but difficult to master." Job design allows that concept to apply to all areas of the game. Content design restricts that concept only to content designed for difficulty.

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Originally Posted by Neoyoshi

Has it even occured to folk that Jobs aren't the problem? but the content itself???

If the content isn't challenging and it's instead mundane and repetitive, then of course the job you play is going to feel terrible, because the content isn't forcing you to think creatively and make decisions on that job you normally wouldn't make.

Yoshida focusing on the content itself is what we actually need; because jobs get tweaked during patches all the time; it's the content that needs to be reworked.

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So say they do make content that "forces me to think creatively". They won't, we both know this, but I'll humor you.

In my job/class where are the tools for me to USE creatively?

Speaking solely for AST -

Synastry doesn't even WORK on Aspected Benefic outside of the intial heal. It doesn't apply the HoT at all.
Macrocosmos/Earthly Star/Exaltation while having a delayed component are pretty much - set at X time for damage to be dealt and then either detonate manually or automaticall.
Neutral Sect ONLY WORKS FOR GCD HEALS, crap I'm not even touching because the devs couldn't be ARSED to make it work like Nocturnal Sect they removed so it could work with Celestial Intersection, Celestial Opposition, and Collective Unconciousness.

Do those sound like a CONTENT or a JOB problem to you?

And mind you, those aren't MINOR tweaks either.

And its not just AST or even the healer role in general that has these issues.

So yes, jobs ARE a problem.

BOTH need to be addressed. Period.

I think the easiest way to explain it is this:

Let's say you have an old beat-up junk of a car. Does it matter whether you drive that car on a regular road (dungeons) or an F1 circuit (savage)? Does that car feel better to drive on the F1 circuit? It's still the same car.

That's how jobs are. You drive the exact same car in all roads, so if the car itself doesn't feel good to drive, then the road you choose to drive on doesn't matter at all.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Bushnell's Law: "The best video games are easy to play but difficult to master." Job design allows that concept to apply to all areas of the game. Content design restricts that concept only to content designed for difficulty.

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What you're describing actually occurs at the intersection of job design and fight design. There is no way that you're going to make target dummy conditions 'difficult to master'.

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Originally Posted by Neoyoshi

We watched and listened to entirely two different panels if that was your take-away from what Yoshida said.

Because i heard: "we want to make content more challenging and rewarding"

Has it even occured to folk that Jobs aren't the problem? but the content itself???

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It has occured to folk and they realized that the encounter design is not the sole issue.

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If the content isn't challenging and it's instead mundane and repetitive, then of course the job you play is going to feel terrible, because the content isn't forcing you to think creatively and make decisions on that job you normally wouldn't make.

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That's not true though. I will have vastly more fun playing red mage in casual content like the rightfully criticized EW araids than on white mage. DPS and tanks retain so much more of their fun in normal mode content.

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Originally Posted by Neoyoshi

[...]Yoshida focusing on the content itself is what we actually need; because jobs get tweaked during patches all the time; it's the content that needs to be reworked.

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IMHO this statement only makes sense if one is viewing through a Tank/DPS-main lenses.

Yes, contents do need some work to an extent. I think that much is true for jobs like tanks & some red dpses roles. For example, gigantic hitboxes rendering the advantages of full mobility & being able to attack from afar a moot to ranged, it makes one question why were they sentenced to output less despite melees no longer needing to work for uptime. Then, there exists bosses turning around on its own/recentering/repositioning while ignoring tanks to do their mechanic(s), rendering tanks having less purpose in encounters except being blue dpses. Tank swaps in normal content? Can't have that too much of that, too apparently. There are more to be listed, but yes, they should rectify these.

On the other hand, that statement would never make sense to green dpses mains because we literally have to pray we'll get paired with bunch of clownfest in some random, obscure duties (usually Ivalice/NieR raids) to actually get some use of many of ours excessive healing buttons that's been collecting dusts because we rarely needed to use them. Heck, even if those obscure duties pop, if everybody are good at their game, all we're doing is hoping whichever hotkey we've assigned our Glaroilficosis to won't break from just how many times we press it. So where do we have to go from here? Are we deliberately sentenced to only make DF queue pop faster?

Tldr; Both side NEEDS attention.

Healers are so badly designed that in the single hardest and most “engaging” pieces of content in the game (the 5 ultimates and the 3 ultimate light savages) still have you spend more time pressing one button than every other button put together

SAM mains lose their minds that after Kaiten got deleted shinten is now just shy of 20% of your button presses while broil 4 is on average 80% of the total casts of a SCH and even the most clown fiesta run it won’t drop below 60%

There is physically no way to make healers work by changing the engagement of the encounter design

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

SAM mains lose their minds that after Kaiten got deleted shinten is now just shy of 20% of your button presses

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Unpopular opinion perhaps: but I don't see what the problem is with Shinten. It has, in fact, nothing to do with healer problems, because Shinten is an OGCD combined with resource management. It has absolutely nothing to do with the repetitive nature of healers. Even when you're spamming Shinten, there's still the main "rotation" to perform, which brings variation. Shinten just adds a welcome dynamism.

As for the fact that the disappearance of kaiten somewhat simplifies resource management, it's true; but even if it means bringing in additional management, I sincerely think that there was much, much more interesting than kaiten (whose disappearance went over my head, personally). Third Eye, for example, would need to be reworked; offering a synergy between a "defensive" button and the dps you could get is a very good idea.