Feedback: It's dull when only the tank is still alive and they can't die

This topic screams double standards.

When it is okay for a tank to waste the parties time by doing the boss solo which takes forever then consequently it also should be okay for a healer to not use dps spells or DDs pressing their rotation at random (or the infamous ice-mage).

But when you say that they are wasting your time by dying this also is a double standard.

What you mean is the healer is not allowed to make any mistakes. When a tank or DD makes a mistake the healer can pick them up. But when the very same healer makes a mistake then screw them or what?


This is still a team game. Don't be selfish. Wasting your parties time has more than one face.

They could easily fix this (and a bunch of other issues) by removing the level 1 "Tank Mastery" trait, or at least by removing the 20% mitigation part of it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Conchoidal

They could easily fix this (and a bunch of other issues) by removing the level 1 "Tank Mastery" trait, or at least by removing the 20% mitigation part of it.

---

True, we used to live without that by always tanking in our DPS stances. But that was part of the issue as well. SE expected us to have that mitigation while tanking and we didn't if we cared about dealing damage.

Bosses these days do no damage to the tank, fix that and the game becomes instantly better.

Played Tank on the 2nd acc. and felt like the challenges of playing Tank are...

- Trash mobs in between Dungeon Bosses, sorta
- Aiming Boss rear to Melees, or trying to care to do so
- Watching Boss teleport to center and not going " welp "
- Weaving cookies and coffee sips in RL
- Not self-mitigating in Dungeons for possible excitement (spoiler alert...)
- Collecting 5+ Vuln stacks so the healer gets to do something
- Alt-Tabbing to Discord and rant respond to Samurai topics
- Using Shield Bash randomly cause I wanna giggle for the day
- Writing an email amidst my oh so overbearing rotation
- Not falling asleep

I am honestly rooting for Triple/Quadruple Down to be implemented. What's 1 or 2 more Fell Cleaves and a 5th 6th Confiteor that would really up the spiciness. Quality gameplay.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CelestiCer

- Watching Boss teleport to center and not going " welp "

---

I find that boss positioning is still a thing, except now it's "fight the system to prevent the recentering from disrupting melees".

One example is if you pull a boss so that it's slightly behind the middle, then when it recenters, it doesn't spin around. It just moves forwards.

Another example is aiming the boss exactly where it will face when it recenters, so that it's seamless and doesn't spin around at all.

Overall, the recentering has caused as many problems as it has solved, so there's no point in it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deceptus

And tank busters should take at least 60% of a tank's health, not 20%

But the easier way to fix tank's soloing bosses is more doom effects that require Esuna to cleanse.

---

The reason they don’t do this is because it puts too much pressure on the healer. Tanks were not able to solo things before. This was a deliberate design choice to make sure not everything relies on the healer. Not an easy fix unless they finally make healers the win condition of a dungeon again.

Something about it causing anxiety and what not.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tint

When it is okay for a tank to waste the parties time by doing the boss solo which takes forever then consequently it also should be okay for a healer to not use dps spells or DDs pressing their rotation at random (or the infamous ice-mage).

But when you say that they are wasting your time by dying this also is a double standard.

---

Weird attempt to twist this topic into your own pet gripe, but I'll bite because I feel like it's worth clarifying that this is apples and oranges.

I'm talking about how I want to play the fight. You're talking about how you want to play the fight less. Our desires are opposites.

don't die and you wont have to spectate making it so tanks die easier only make it so you are even more likely to die.

people can play how they want and being able to solo bosses as anything that includes a healer or dps is possible and shouldn't be thrown out cause someone else disliked that they died and got carried.

If tanks get a rez, it should have a long cooldown and not use mana. Only two out of four tanks use mana for their abilities, so 2 of them will just have free rezzes to hand out. It wouldn't be as much of a tradeoff for GNB/WAR as it is for casters and healers since they don't need that mana and they'll just make healers more useless. I'm already sick of rez mages deciding that they will rez the party instead of DPSing and making me waste my swiftcast. Also it should give the tanks some kind of penalty for using it since mana and cast time based penalty is not enough. It should work like Sacrifice L or give damage downs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ath192

The reason they don’t do this is because it puts too much pressure on the healer. Tanks were not able to solo things before. This was a deliberate design choice to make sure not everything relies on the healer. Not an easy fix unless they finally make healers the win condition of a dungeon again.

Something about it causing anxiety and what not.

---

Or you know, this when you let healers and tanks learn the fight and get better. Healers do eventually clear aurum vale, vault, and pharos sirius after a wipe or 3. Let's stop babying these 2 roles. I also feel dps need more dps check mechanics as well, or at least boss mechanics or environmental mechanics that target them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Musashidon

don't die and you wont have to spectate making it so tanks die easier only make it so you are even more likely to die.

people can play how they want and being able to solo bosses as anything that includes a healer or dps is possible and shouldn't be thrown out cause someone else disliked that they died and got carried.

---

Sure, you can do whatever you want- when you're with trusts. However when you're grouped with people, then we're expected to follow to what is generally acceptable and not expect to *force* our way of doing things on the rest of the party.

How you define this when you're with your friends/your static- well, that's up to you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Musashidon

people can play how they want

---

It's not about how people play, it's game design.

If tanks can solo bosses, the value of the healer role comes into question.

Additionally, if the DPS need a healer to survive but tanks don't then it's potentially easy to get into the situation where the tank is slowly soloing the boss even if the DPS plays perfectly. If that happens most of the party is stuck watching instead of playing which many wouldn't find ideal.

If people want to solo, there is unsync for that. Proper dungeon balance won't stop people from overgearing and doing content alone.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ath192

Tanks were not able to solo things before. This was a deliberate design choice to make sure not everything relies on the healer. Not an easy fix unless they finally make healers the win condition of a dungeon again.

Something about it causing anxiety and what not.

---

I have soloed boss fights since gnat-version of Demon Wall.
Tanks have always been very capable.

They've gotten ridiculous as of late, and as a tank I hate it. Sometimes I press Rampart even when I don't need to, just as a treat. Because I don't need it for any non-serious content.

They need to dial back tank self-sustain. We have too much. Dial it back some. Can still make it so tanks can survive those last bits of a fight, but we shouldn't be able to solo from high double digit percents.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shougun

On Alliances that have a series of mechanics that don't deal particularly a lot of damage to tanks (but are there to be fun or to stack up vuln if you fail) I've also seen tanks that 'want to die' but can't because there isn't anything to really wipe themselves on.

---

It's so painful when I need a death wall and don't have one. People were talking about Grand Cosmos. I've been the last tank standing and it's tedious waiting for him to kill you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

Sure, you can do whatever you want- when you're with trusts. However when you're grouped with people, then we're expected to follow to what is generally acceptable and not expect to *force* our way of doing things on the rest of the party.

How you define this when you're with your friends/your static- well, that's up to you.

---

when you are in DF you get what you get or you take a penalty that's it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PyurBlue

If tanks can solo bosses, the value of the healer role comes into question.

---

only for you, all it shows is how good a player is.

You don't need to change the tank kit to fix this. You just need tank players to exercise an ounce of common sense. If they're the only one alive and the boss has like half its health and they're downing a single % every minute or something, maybe this isn't as impressive as they think it is and they should just wipe it. But this game's tank community is full of people with Main Character syndrome, so yeah, we'll probably see significant nerfs to tank sustain in Dawntrail because people couldn't just be humble about really basic polite stuff.

That said, I think there's a lot of contextual stuff to this. I was the DPS in one of these at one point. Vanaspati. For a while it was just me and the tank duoing it, but he opted to heal his own 80+% hp with nascent flash instead of me, so eventually the partywides killed me and we all watched him (I alt tabbed tbh) slowly solo it from 60% to 4 and then die to mechanics like a scrub. Then we went back as a light party and finished it in a fraction of that time. That sucked and wasted everyone's time, because he didn't actually finish the job. If you're a tank in that solo position and you've made everyone wait a long ass time while you jerked yourself off for a half hour, you'd better at least win it. Nobody cares that you can solo some msq content. However, if your squad already wiped once and maybe the healer's died again on attemp2 and it's looking like it's gonna be a double wipe, if I'm on my WAR I'll just solo it at that point because I just wanna be done.

So, idk. It's all kinda arbitrary and contextual but generally speaking nobody wants to see you slowly whittle a boss down from 60%.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Avoidy

You just need tank players to exercise an ounce of common sense.

---

Sorry, no thinking here. We just hit things really hard.

Unfortunately, the game really does need to save some players from the hubris of others. And the option should still be there at least partially. If the party has wiped 3 times because you have new folks, then it's a relief when the tank can bring things home at the end. But making people stay on the floor while a tank solos something from high percentages is just arrogance. So we need the game to limit our being able to do this because enough of us aren't going to do it voluntarily.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Sorry, no thinking here. We just hit things really hard.

Unfortunately, the game really does need to save some players from the hubris of others. And the option should still be there at least partially. If the party has wiped 3 times because you have new folks, then it's a relief when the tank can bring things home at the end. But making people stay on the floor while a tank solos something from high percentages is just arrogance. So we need the game to limit our being able to do this because enough of us aren't going to do it voluntarily.

---

Yeah I agree. I've been sitting here editing my post over and over again because there's a lot of nuance to this topic that I wasn't giving it at first mostly due to impatience from IRL stuff.
But yeah you're right and I've been amending my post for a little while to be in a similar spirit because I agree.

Unrelated, but the worst instance of this I've seen was everyone dying to the first boss of paradigm tower except a paladin, who then tried to clemency-solo it from like 57% with an hour to go before maintenance. People were up in the spawn point screaming for him to just wipe it, lmao.

I Job-hop too much to really have a cat in this race but I hope that if they change things they do something to make things more interesting and don't just nerf tanks.
Can't they put an enrage on more things so there's at least some stakes for the DPS players involved instead of waiting for bosses to die of old age while pressing 1 or camping ice and never realizing it's a problem because "we cleared it np"?
I'm not even asking for a tight enrage window, just short enough that any party that gets outperformed by Trusts runs into issues.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ath192

The reason they don’t do this is because it puts too much pressure on the healer. Tanks were not able to solo things before. This was a deliberate design choice to make sure not everything relies on the healer. Not an easy fix unless they finally make healers the win condition of a dungeon again.

Something about it causing anxiety and what not.

---

And that low damage, combined with tanks massive self sustain, is why healers are the first to be dropped from most mid-high level parties after prog.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PyurBlue

It's not about how people play, it's game design.

If tanks can solo bosses, the value of the healer role comes into question.

Additionally, if the DPS need a healer to survive but tanks don't then it's potentially easy to get into the situation where the tank is slowly soloing the boss even if the DPS plays perfectly. If that happens most of the party is stuck watching instead of playing which many wouldn't find ideal.

If people want to solo, there is unsync for that. Proper dungeon balance won't stop people from overgearing and doing content alone.

---

You can take every ounce of healing from tanks and it wouldn't stop a tank + healer from slowly soloing a boss. There's two solutions to this.

1. Make enemies hit harder. Pressure the tank and healer to burn through their cooldowns until they run out of steam and eventually die. Then DPS matters because they down the boss before you run out of cooldowns.

2. Give more fights DPS checks. A tank can't clear a DPS check on their own. If they can't down the boss before the check happens, they're better off self wiping.


A trinity doesn't have to be a hard rule. Roles can hybridize a little. Tanks heal and DPS. Healers DPS and mitigate (do re remove healer mit because they infringe on tanks?). DPS mitigate and self heal (SMN and RDM can group heal)

Stripping down jobs further isn't the answer here. Jobs are already over-pruned. We need to pressure groups enough that these hybridized tools aren't enough to coast by on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deceptus

And that low damage, combined with tanks massive self sustain, is why healers are the first to be dropped from most mid-high level parties after prog.

---

Lets be real about this though, I've pugged reclears anywhere from extremes to Ultimates successfully and healers are always there. Dropping the healers is something the top1% of players does for a fun challenge. I wouldn't say any midcore party drops their healers after prog unless they are lying to themselves about it when they are hardcore. It takes a lot of mit planning which wouldn't be considered mid-tier raiding.

But it is pretty sad that:

A: You can
B: This is what people are doing to feel something given the state of the game

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Musashidon

only for you, all it shows is how good a player is.

---

Oh I don't know about that... back in the day you could have said that... but with the new tank "features"... well.. that's pretty questionable now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Grizzlpaw

You can take every ounce of healing from tanks and it wouldn't stop a tank + healer from slowly soloing a boss. There's two solutions to this.

1. Make enemies hit harder. Pressure the tank and healer to burn through their cooldowns until they run out of steam and eventually die. Then DPS matters because they down the boss before you run out of cooldowns.

2. Give more fights DPS checks. A tank can't clear a DPS check on their own. If they can't down the boss before the check happens, they're better off self wiping.


A trinity doesn't have to be a hard rule. Roles can hybridize a little. Tanks heal and DPS. Healers DPS and mitigate (do re remove healer mit because they infringe on tanks?). DPS mitigate and self heal (SMN and RDM can group heal)

Stripping down jobs further isn't the answer here. Jobs are already over-pruned. We need to pressure groups enough that these hybridized tools aren't enough to coast by on.

---

Hybrid roles means that you can assist each other in a pinch, not that a tank is a better single target healer than the healer themselves, that’s specifically why healers do less damage than DPS

Sorry. According to a certain small indie company's logic, apparently thanks to 80% bad healers that populates the DF means the tanks must receive their immortality to keep the Duty Finder conveyor belt running smoothly. You can safely warm the floor now while the tanks do all your works for you. Please look forward to it!

/s

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Hybrid roles means that you can assist each other in a pinch, not that a tank is a better single target healer than the healer themselves, that’s specifically why healers do less damage than DPS

---

They're not. Except for arguably WAR if they have enough targets to hit.

If I want to ensure my tank doesn't die as an AST I can put 4 different stackable HoTs on them and spam Benefics. Tanks don't have anything close to that. I feel the pain healers go through but the problem isn't tank sustain. The problem is that ANY sustain we give tanks feels overpowered when there's hardly any incoming damage to speak of.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Grizzlpaw

They're not. Except for arguably WAR if they have enough targets to hit.

If I want to ensure my tank doesn't die as an AST I can put 4 different stackable HoTs on them and spam Benefics. Tanks don't have anything close to that. I feel the pain healers go through but the problem isn't tank sustain. The problem is that ANY sustain we give tanks feels overpowered when there's hardly any incoming damage to speak of.

---

The fact that you have to include an amendment there is the entire problem, there should never be a consideration where the tank is a better healer than the healer, WAR’s regularly outheal me in dungeons (and nobody is ever at risk of dying), that is just stupid, not a single healer can match the raw HPS of bloodwhetting on more than 3 targets, it’s straight up 4 benedictions on a 25 second CD, you cannot outdamage that

That’s the whole problem with bloodwhetting, sure if you tuned up the damage to 15 making it so the WAR crashed and burned after bloodwhetting you could probably force the healer to do something (and make 90% of the playerbase quit because of the increase in damage) but without a oneshot you physically cannot outdamage the healing potential of bloodwhetting; no skill should be like that

Damage should be tuned up so that tanks don’t need to have straight up zero self healing in order to make the healers do anything but bloodwhetting cannot be balanced around, it needs to be nerfed

Think about it this way to give you a better visualisation

Tank “potency” is about half of healer potency when you account for traits and the like, so bloodwhetting hits for ~200 healer potency per enemy, on average an endgame double pull is about 6-8 enemies, so you are healing for bloodwhetting 1200-1600 healer potency per GCD

Now the strongest non conditional healer CD (ie not messing around with the potential of macrocosmos) is lilybell expiring with all 5 stacks intact, that’s a heal of 1000 potency and WHM gets it once per 3 minutes

That is the level of healing bloodwhetting does, 1.5x the strongest heal in the game 4 times every 25 seconds, bloodwhetting is beyond a joke, for reference the spammable healer single target GCD’s are all around 600-700 potency per GCD, if you upped damage to challenge bloodwhetting’s healing the healers straight up would not be able to keep up

If you want to be technical about it it doesn't even end there. Nascent Flash literally doubles the amount of healing in play by having it apply to two targets with no real cost to it.

Hell most of the healing when using Nascent or BW kinda just falls off because its so overtuned at what its doing that it ends up just being an invul in aoe situations, or more than enough to 0 to full your Nascent Target, who unless they're the other tank, likely isnt taking that much damage

If the boss is 20-30%ish I'll usually work away depending on how fast it's going down, otherwise I'll keep at it, unless the team were dying to easy stuff then there is no point.

As for WAR out healing Healers in dungeon pulls not being fair on healers. You do realise that healers can do more damage than a lot of DPS in these same pulls. Should we remove all healer damage too and make everything just really grindy for no reason? As a healer you should be healing as little as possible in content. Tanks having self sustain is the best thing they've done for Tanks lately. Before this change Tanks were a rare commodity and now people love them and we have loads of them.

If anything Healers need the same treatment with emphasis on pure healing reduced and replaced with damaging moves so the community can finally see healers as an alternative job to play instead of being a heal bot. A lot of people don't find it fun being a heal bot in any RPG. People love seeing big numbers and feeling like they are contributing.

As it is Tanks are completely fine. Healers are just terrible to play if you are forced to heal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Asako

If the boss is 20-30%ish I'll usually work away depending on how fast it's going down, otherwise I'll keep at it, unless the team were dying to easy stuff then there is no point.

As for WAR out healing Healers in dungeon pulls not being fair on healers. You do realise that healers can do more damage than a lot of DPS in these same pulls. Should we remove all healer damage too and make everything just really grindy for no reason? As a healer you should be healing as little as possible in content. Tanks having self sustain is the best thing they've done for Tanks lately. Before this change Tanks were a rare commodity and now people love them and we have loads of them.

If anything Healers need the same treatment with emphasis on pure healing reduced and replaced with damaging moves so the community can finally see healers as an alternative job to play instead of being a heal bot. A lot of people don't find it fun being a heal bot in any RPG. People love seeing big numbers and feeling like they are contributing.

As it is Tanks are completely fine. Healers are just terrible to play if you are forced to heal.

---

I can do as much damage as DPS in AOE situations without the tank being immortal is the entire point, who wants to sit there going 333333333333 while the immortal tank heals themselves, I have enough heals as it is I can keep 100% uptime on damage on all tanks, but at least DRK and GNB let me actually press my healing buttons as well and occasionally press a GCD heal if something actually goes wrong

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I can do as much damage as DPS in AOE situations without the tank being immortal is the entire point, who wants to sit there going 333333333333 while the immortal tank heals themselves, I have enough heals as it is I can keep 100% uptime on damage on all tanks, but at least DRK and GNB let me actually press my healing buttons as well and occasionally press a GCD heal if something actually goes wrong

---

You can press your healing GCD on any healer if something goes wrong regardless of Tank. It's only Warrior with the super healing, but it also has the weakest personal defence wise as it was back in ARR. You take more damage but you self heal more. PLD self healing is terrible too. Unless you are counting Clemency, which I hope you aren't. PLD should never ever have to press Clemency.

The Tanks are all fine. The healers just need a DPS rotation that is more than 1 Dot and 1 Attack and bosses just need to hit a lot harder. The game is too soft on players. It's not the Tanks fault that healers are in a bad state, and I certainly don't want to return to a time where we are always forced to wipe whenever the healer wets the bed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Asako

You can press your healing GCD on any healer if something goes wrong regardless of Tank. It's only Warrior with the super healing, but it also has the weakest personal defence wise as it was back in ARR. You take more damage but you self heal more. PLD self healing is terrible too. Unless you are counting Clemency, which I hope you aren't. PLD should never ever have to press Clemency.

The Tanks are all fine. The healers just need a DPS rotation that is more than 1 Dot and 1 Attack and bosses just need to hit a lot harder. The game is too soft on players. It's not the Tanks fault that healers are in a bad state, and I certainly don't want to return to a time where we are always forced to wipe whenever the healer wets the bed.

---

Did you ignore the fact that bloodwhetting is by far the strongest heal in the game and you are functionally immortal 30% of the entire fight, you cannot outdamage bloodwhetting, it’s fundamentally broken that is not healthy game design no matter how badly the healers are designed, “weakest defence”, yeah by 5% on a single CD, ooooooh ahhhhhhh much downside

As for PLD even ignoring clemency it’s the second strongest and it’s healing is also too strong

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Did you ignore the fact that bloodwhetting is by far the strongest heal in the game and you are functionally immortal 30% of the entire fight, you cannot outdamage bloodwhetting, it’s fundamentally broken that is not healthy game design no matter how badly the healers are designed, “weakest defence”, yeah by 5% on a single CD, ooooooh ahhhhhhh much downside

As for PLD even ignoring clemency it’s the second strongest and it’s healing is also too strong

---

No I did not Ignore that. Like I said, it's there to compensate for the missing mitigation that the other tanks have compared to Warrior. It just so happens that the healing is more beneficial in aoe trash packs. Who really cares about trash? Against bosses I'd rather have straight up mitigation like the other Tanks.

Again, don't bring up Clemency. It is a skill that needs removed from the game because it's so bad. Is it strong? Sure. Should you ever press it? No. That's like saying Shield Bash is too strong. If it's not part of your normal rotation then it has no real value. It only comes up in situations were people have wet the bed at which point ask the question....Who wet the bed? They could give Clemency 1000000 potency and it still wouldn't change the fact that it's straight cheeks as long as it's tied to a GCD. If it were an OGCD I could see your point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

The fact that you have to include an amendment there is the entire problem, there should never be a consideration where the tank is a better healer than the healer, WAR’s regularly outheal me in dungeons (and nobody is ever at risk of dying), that is just stupid, not a single healer can match the raw HPS of bloodwhetting on more than 3 targets, it’s straight up 4 benedictions on a 25 second CD, you cannot outdamage that

That’s the whole problem with bloodwhetting, sure if you tuned up the damage to 15 making it so the WAR crashed and burned after bloodwhetting you could probably force the healer to do something (and make 90% of the playerbase quit because of the increase in damage) but without a oneshot you physically cannot outdamage the healing potential of bloodwhetting; no skill should be like that

Damage should be tuned up so that tanks don’t need to have straight up zero self healing in order to make the healers do anything but bloodwhetting cannot be balanced around, it needs to be nerfed

---

While I agree, my biggest gripe with this conversation is the conflation of WAR sustain with tank sustain. Bloodwhetting trivializes dungeon content. Wall to wall pulls are one of the few things that can threaten a tank's health pool, and WAR gets to ignore that. This does not mean that tank sustain as a whole is a problem.

Resource/cooldown limited heals do have a place in this game. But it takes enemies so long to chip down a tank's health pool that sustain even in limited capacities feels overwhelming.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Asako

No I did not Ignore that. Like I said, it's there to compensate for the missing mitigation that the other tanks have compared to Warrior. It just so happens that the healing is more beneficial in aoe trash packs. Who really cares about trash? Against bosses I'd rather have straight up mitigation like the other Tanks.

Again, don't bring up Clemency. It is a skill that needs removed from the game because it's so bad. Is it strong? Sure. Should you ever press it? No. That's like saying Shield Bash is too strong. If it's not part of your normal rotation then it has no real value. It only comes up in situations were people have wet the bed at which point ask the question....Who wet the bed? They could give Clemency 1000000 potency and it still wouldn't change the fact that it's straight cheeks as long as it's tied to a GCD. If it were an OGCD I could see your point.

---

WAR is missing 5% on one mitigation and in exchange gets the strongest AOE defensive, that is not a remote justification for bloodwhetting

I said ignoring clemency, not sure how you didn’t see that, PLD’s sustain is too strong

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Grizzlpaw

While I agree, my biggest gripe with this conversation is the conflation of WAR sustain with tank sustain. Bloodwhetting trivializes dungeon content. Wall to wall pulls are one of the few things that can threaten a tank's health pool, and WAR gets to ignore that. This does not mean that tank sustain as a whole is a problem.

Resource/cooldown limited heals do have a place in this game. But it takes enemies so long to chip down a tank's health pool that sustain even in limited capacities feels overwhelming.

---

Correct which is why TBN is well designed, “I’m immortal for 30% of the fight” , “I’m a better regen healer than the regen healers” and “I do SCH’s excog but better” are not

Please clear up what content you are referring to when making your arguements please. I would love to know this magical content that PLD sustain is too strong and WAR is OP despite in any content that requires more than 1 braincell the ideal comp is DRK / GNB because they have the best mit. All Tanks are perfectly balanced for this content. Like I said, it's not their fault healers currently suck.

If you are going to argue about casual content then what's the point? Bill and Ben the Flowerpot men can clear this content on most roles with no issue. You can practically solo dungeons on healer. Should we nerf healers? They shouldn't be able to out dps DPS right? They do though, epsecially at the lower levels.

War is currently one of the least preferred Tanks to do serious content with because the healing doesn't matter. It's a large amount but it's still irrelevent. It barely beats out PLD, and that's simply due to the invun times.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Asako

War is currently one of the least preferred Tanks to do serious content with because the healing doesn't matter. It's a large amount but it's still irrelevent. It barely beats out PLD, and that's simply due to the invun times.

---

A quick trip to a particular website that ranks things would tell you WAR is the most popular tank to run the latest ultimate with even among the top 50 teams worldwide currently. War isn't OP per se, its easy, and that makes it infinitely more valuable in a raid setting because as long as dmg is on parity to other tanks it frees you up to handle mechanics better instead of focusing on gauges and cooldowns. Just pointing out WAR being least preferred is inaccurate.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Asako

Please clear up what content you are referring to when making your arguements please. I would love to know this magical content that PLD sustain is too strong and WAR is OP despite in any content that requires more than 1 braincell the ideal comp is DRK / GNB because they have the best mit. All Tanks are perfectly balanced for this content. Like I said, it's not their fault healers currently suck.

If you are going to argue about casual content then what's the point? Bill and Ben the Flowerpot men can clear this content on most roles with no issue. You can practically solo dungeons on healer. Should we nerf healers? They shouldn't be able to out dps DPS right? They do though, epsecially at the lower levels.

War is currently one of the least preferred Tanks to do serious content with because the healing doesn't matter. It's a large amount but it's still irrelevent. It barely beats out PLD, and that's simply due to the invun times.

---

Different content has different problems associated with it

Casual content bloodwhetting is too strong on the healing side, sure casual content is easy but using “oh it’s easy so just do whatever we want with skills” is a flawed premise, it’s still the majority of content we do and it should be balanced to reward all roles properly, otherwise “just give the DPS a one tap the boss button” is just as valid a statement as “bloodwhetting is fine because it’s casual”, for example changing bloodwhetting to only proc once per GCD rather than once per target rebalances the skill and changes nothing about how it’s used in high end content. PLD’s sustain is just the fact that it basically can have a near infinite regen on it and it’s magical combo heals as well, an average PLD in most content outside high end will outheal the healer

High end content WAR is better balanced because the healing on bloodwhetting is way less consequential (though in exchange it has the best invuln, the best party wide mitigation and second highest damage), tank problems in high end content are more content focused than ability focused but still centre on the fact that tanks have too much mitigation for the damage going out, the 86 tank CD’s are just too powerful so the only real way to balance them is to just make tankbusters do 280% of your HP unmitigated, this is less of a WAR problem and more of a collective design problem but it still generally comes from never nerfing the tanks, there is also the fact that DRK had no advantage in high end content, PLD has its one extra mitigation, GNB and WAR do the most damage and WAR has the best mitigation, they are much better balanced in high end content