Next Criterion Dungeons - Where do you want them to be?

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Originally Posted by Iscah

It's not so much a "variant appreciation thread" as "what niche location do you want explored in side content next?" – which used to be the domain of standard non-MSQ dungeon but has now been handed over to variant dungeons.

It's not outside the scope of the thread to wish to go back to the old format for visiting these locations.

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Alright then I think I'll start popping into exploration zone threads to remind the posters that their content is a waste of dev resources and it should be scrapped from the game to give me what I want.

I didn't even know about these in all honesty. So I just recently gave them a try.

They are a LOT like PoTD and they are pretty fun. So I suspect advertizing them a bit more might go a long way.

Two Problems I see with them though...

1. The rewards aren't that great. The glamor sets are... only ok, nothing really cool. Perhaps a mount or something that could be achieved. Either way, I just was not interested at all in anything you could get.

2. Well as much as they claimed there was supposed to be "explanation of backstory" there really just isn't much of that going on in there. It only had brief points of interest.

Honestly though I felt the gameplay itself was every bit as fun as PoTD. Its very unique.

I just suspect though many people don't even know about them so never have tried them.

You actually do get mounts from them if you complete all 12 paths.

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Originally Posted by RavLandslide

You actually do get mounts from them if you complete all 12 paths.

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There's also rare minions, housing items, and other things that drop from the midboss to farm. There's a decent number of things to keep going back for, maybe not forever but it's definitely far from a one and done bit of content.

HW Zone: Both the Churning Mists and Dravanian Hinterlands feel woefully underused with a lot of areas that are most just there for FATEs or to fill out the map. As for who, Hilda feels like a good choice. Just not bloody Emmanellain. Seeing him the first couple of times again was mildly amusing, but I've had my fill.
ShB Zone: There's so much potential in Rak'tika and the Qitari. They just kinda showed up out of nowhere from a place that was previously inaccessible. I feel like it gives a solid excuse to explore more Ronkan ruins. No matter where we go, though, it should be with our lovely branch.
DT Zone: I want more Blue Mage lore, so something around Lapis Canyon with someone from the Whalaqee.
ARR Zone: We've covered Ul'dah, so something to do with Limsa or Gridania would be nice. Gelmorra feels appropriate as other people have said.

I see a lot of people in this thread saying they want Hilda for a HW dungeon, which is very fair. She's a fun character who's really underutilized.
What I'd love to see is a dragon. Not one of those small dragonlings, but a big one, at minimum Vidofnir size.
Having someone like that follow you through the dungeon just seems funny to me.

Isn't the point of variant dungeon companions supposed to be that they're non-fighters who can't help you in battle?

maybe its a shy and peaceful dragon?

What if... the thing following you around in the dungeon...

Was your conscience?

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

What if... the thing following you around in the dungeon...

Was your conscience?

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Fray for Variant Dungeon companion

I'd like to head back to the First somehow. There's still places to explore there, and with Shadowbringers done, side content seems to be the most likely way for us to head back there for new things.

Personally I'd be very happy if we got Feo Ul in the small pixie form as our companion, intentionally just along for the ride rather than helping out in combat, but I imagine that'd be somewhat unlikely.

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Originally Posted by Jade_Tyrant

I'd like to head back to the First somehow. There's still places to explore there, and with Shadowbringers done, side content seems to be the most likely way for us to head back there for new things.

Personally I'd be very happy if we got Feo Ul in the small pixie form as our companion, intentionally just along for the ride rather than helping out in combat, but I imagine that'd be somewhat unlikely.

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I’d love more Feo Ul! I was kinda disappointed that we didn’t have any text lines about how we’re the sapling of a Very Important Fairy in the new Variant! lol

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Originally Posted by Tsiron

Fray for Variant Dungeon companion

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Honestly. Completing the initial DRK job quest line should unlock Fray style dialogue choices in cutscenes going forward... lol

First pick would be Gelmorra/Expanded Gridanian focused. Though I’d also like Ala Mhigo/Gyr Abania focused on as they’re the other criminally underexplored Main City, perhaps something that uses the Ark or Ziggurat, I do think it would be feasible to add in some Ala Mhigan lore/references to one of the routes of a Gelmorran dungeon like how Sil’dah had some Amaljaa. The accompanying NPC needing to be a noncombatant may or may not rule out one of the Padjaal - but the perfect fit for noncombatant talkative and somewhat comedic relief would be a moogle. Which could also be a companion for a Dravanian/Churning Mists exploration of the ruins from a thousand years ago if one goes with that option .

Second choice is Norvrandt. Preferably Voeburt or the Elven civilization in Lakeland, but anything on the First that isn’t Ancient ruins. Variant dungeon seems perfectly made for a decently substantial chunk of dungeons and lore without worrying about tying the First into current plot.

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Originally Posted by Gullis

if said person don't care about hard difficulty content, its not a wierd take at all. if I had the choice between more dungeons per patch, or variant, i'd take more dungeons anyday.

SE are too stubborn to change things, so I have no faith they will do better with the 7.0 variants. But i'll be glad to be proven wrong

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With the way they design dungeons now, which are literally all the same, I think even variants are better. By a hair. Because quite frankly the way you choose paths feels incredibly artificial, like you're in a Disney ride and sometimes the actor/actress playing the character stops to ask the tourists to choose what door to open.
CBUIII is really bad at organic dungeon design.

I'd like to have a bunch of them in The First. I'm a simple woman. Give me more Feo'Ul and Ryne/Gaia adventures.

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

With the way they design dungeons now, which are literally all the same, I think even variants are better. By a hair. Because quite frankly the way you choose paths feels incredibly artificial, like you're in a Disney ride and sometimes the actor/actress playing the character stops to ask the tourists to choose what door to open.
CBUIII is really bad at organic dungeon design.

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This. Are variant dungeons these fresh amazing dungeon experiences? Obviously not.
But they are at least not quite as void of creativity as 2 trash packs-> wall-> 2 trash packs-> boss-> repeat while you run through hallways with fancy wallpaper in the background.

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Originally Posted by Khryseis_Astra

I’d love more Feo Ul! I was kinda disappointed that we didn’t have any text lines about how we’re the sapling of a Very Important Fairy in the new Variant! lol

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Feo Ul isn't a Faerie, they's a Pixie. Not to imply Statice has any reaction to seeing Eos or the skin of Selene in a dungeon where you can freely swap your job...

As far as locations, I feel like I'd enjoy them all enough. They're fine when it comes to theming. That's basically the one aspect of dungeon design they've iterated on since ARR, a time when they were more okay with having dungeons have literal multiple paths and dead ends.

I'd like them instead to iterate on how their paths and areas function on an interactive level. I don't know why we couldn't get pieces like the tavern in Sastasha that actually have multiple paths to choose, be they dead ends or not, rather than at most two paths and both paths leading to the same boss. Is it crazy to think I should be able to take the left path at the start and still end up fighting the right boss at the end?

Also, amid the occasional trash puzzle, they still force you to fight boring load-bearing trash that does nothing but open the next gate. The trash isn't behaving any different, and the variant actions we have invalidate them even more than typical dungeon trash, so why not put in less of it, or have them behave differently, or even have roaming packs or all that old MMO dungeon stuff to try and make it feel more like a 'place' than a series of corridors with a boss at the end?

Like, I remember thinking early on in Snowcloak that we had to use a Bomb to blow open an ice wall, but, nope, it just dies and the wall opens. That's kind of a more intuitive puzzle that would fit a lot of the game's environments, moreso than 'spook these armadillos to change one boss mechanic and how the journal author felt about these events'. At least early Snowcloak had an interesting boss where you used the environment to interrupt its attacks or deal huge damage, and the best way to do it was to coordinate with your team (RIP, yeti). Variant is a good chance to lean into that stuff, ESPECIALLY because we're not beholden to the 15 minute run even Medica2 WHMs or Blizzard BLMs can do for tomes every day. So, more mixing the battles with puzzles, please, there's no reason they have to stay segregated!

Hell, even potd had more puzzle bosses and you can't even retry those if you die

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

But they are at least not quite as void of creativity as 2 trash packs-> wall-> 2 trash packs-> boss-> repeat while you run through hallways with fancy wallpaper in the background.

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I feel they are, but they are just hidden under a lot of fluff. Its still the same formula of packs into boss, except they prevent you from w2w pulling by putting a barrier on every pack, instead of every two.
Each path is just a different hallway with fancy wallpaper, that plays no different than the others. They could not even be arsed putting a unique first boss into each path.
the exploration and secrets are usually just a super obvious choice of pick option A or B, with a single unique and fun puzzle per variant, that leads you to a hidden boss.

if it had more stuff like those cool puzzles that led you to a completely different areas with a secret bosses it would be way more fun, but alas they can only bothered to put one of those per dungeon.
even tho these are new experiences in EW, and we only have 3 of them, the formula has already gotten stale and predictable for me. Each of them are the exact same, except that you got a different npc, and different paint.

Its just a normal dungeon.5 except somehow more boring to replay (ironic as they are suppose to be the opposite) as you have to wait for a npc, before you can do anything, and have a total of 5 bosses between 12 paths (and only 1 of them contains the 5th boss)

I like the idea of it, I really do. it has much potential to be great, but right now they are so barebones, that if I got a choice between this or more dungeons per patch, would rather just have more normal dungeons per patch. At least it would help with making expert roulette slightly less stale.

They need to iterate on the mechanics, not the locations. All three have fun little trash pack gimmicks once. Once is too few if you're spending 40% of your time in there fighting trash.

Bosses could have more to them, too, especially the mini boss. While I'm glad at least the mechanics for those vary a little (expert could really, really use that), the only reason it exists in every path is to pad out the dungeon run time. It adds to the time, not so much the overall experience of discovery and exploration, which I think should be the goal.

I think Criterion on the whole works a lot better because it's what they're comfortable building already. They've managed to have some very creative bosses in Criterion, too. Many I've liked more than most of Pandemonium Savage, it's just the reward structure sucks for Criterion.

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Originally Posted by Post

I think Criterion on the whole works a lot better because it's what they're comfortable building already. They've managed to have some very creative bosses in Criterion, too. Many I've liked more than most of Pandemonium Savage, it's just the reward structure sucks for Criterion.

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The problem I have with Criterion is that it's basically just a very long trial, it's not a dungeon to me. The boss fights may be great, but we're not exactly lacking in good boss fights.

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Originally Posted by Gullis

I like the idea of it, I really do. it has much potential to be great, but right now they are so barebones, that if I got a choice between this or more dungeons per patch, would rather just have more normal dungeons per patch. At least it would help with making expert roulette slightly less stale.

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For me expert would be just as stale even if they added more normal dungeons again, because it's all basically the exact same dungeon. Every dungeon since arguably Stormblood has just been the same dungeon but with a different skybox, even the boss mechanics are often just some variant of "point-blank and donut aoe, proximity marker, dodge the lines, stack marker".

I agree with you on variant dungeons though, they too absolutely suffer from being mostly just hallways. It's that tiny bit of variation that puts them above normal expert fodder for me.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

The problem I have with Criterion is that it's basically just a very long trial, it's not a dungeon to me. The boss fights may be great, but we're not exactly lacking in good boss fights.



For me expert would be just as stale even if they added more normal dungeons again, because it's all basically the exact same dungeon. Every dungeon since arguably Stormblood has just been the same dungeon but with a different skybox, even the boss mechanics are often just some variant of "point-blank and donut aoe, proximity marker, dodge the lines, stack marker".

I agree with you on variant dungeons though, they too absolutely suffer from being mostly just hallways. It's that tiny bit of variation that puts them above normal expert fodder for me.

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you are not wrong, I would like them to change up the normal dungeon formula aswell, but just as normal dungeons have been the same since stormblood, same goes for trials and raids. Basicially all the combat content uses the same formula, with boss mechanichs being the only difference.

Its kinda a game wide thing, where they are too afraid or stubborn to make any changes to established things.

Dungeons that dive into some of the more criminally lesser-explored lore, like stuff surrounding Hellsguards, Keepers of the Moon, and Duskwight clans. I think it's only fair, since we just got one that did exactly that for Lalafells, so the idea seems to be on the table at least. I feel like I've been staring at and tapping my watch for the past 6-7 years waiting for more meaningful representation in those areas

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

The problem I have with Criterion is that it's basically just a very long trial, it's not a dungeon to me. The boss fights may be great, but we're not exactly lacking in good boss fights.



For me expert would be just as stale even if they added more normal dungeons again, because it's all basically the exact same dungeon. Every dungeon since arguably Stormblood has just been the same dungeon but with a different skybox, even the boss mechanics are often just some variant of "point-blank and donut aoe, proximity marker, dodge the lines, stack marker".

I agree with you on variant dungeons though, they too absolutely suffer from being mostly just hallways. It's that tiny bit of variation that puts them above normal expert fodder for me.

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IMO the only reason we arent lacking in good boss fights this expansion is because of criterion. It has made up for some pretty mid fights there were in the mix this expansion.

I think I can see where you are coming from when you say criterion doesnt feel like a dungeon. For rokkon and aloalo the trash mobs are basically just a miniboss phase from a raid. Personally I like this more though.

I’m hoping for a race/clan themed Variant Dungeon. It would be perfect to learn more of the races lore we have little knowledge about.

Now that we're (presumably) down to only one per expansion i'll be curious to see if they're going to be used exclusively to set up the next, like how Aloalo Island ended up super relevant to DT's story

i still want one where we investigate something or other in the aetherial sea with Minfilia, though, damnit...