Duty Support has now killed every required ARR to SB dungeon

I feel that having the duty support function is a way for them to try and future proof, we clearly can't rely on players using the roulette to fill earlier dungeons and queues. Especially when players will just leave if they get something that doesn't suit them or they feel isn't worth their time. People are already waiting an hour or more for things to fill if they have to queue for certain dungeons and raids. Before the moogle event I had Ridorana for a WT and after waiting for over an hour I just used a retry point for 90 dungeons and ran another expert roulette.

Duty support was specifically added because there is a vocal group of people in Japan who said that they won’t play XIV because it’s multiplayer.

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Originally Posted by FenyxRising

Keeper of the Lake's last boss went from a crazy AoE dodgefest to a snoozefest
Castrum Abania's second boss went from the cool elemental mechanic to generic AoE attacks
The Aery's last boss no longer has Estinien's RP
Practically every boss now just jumps back to the center by itself invalidating the tank's role completely

Duty Support has now made every required ARR to SB dungeon a McDonald's hamburger, mass-produced, streamlined, and they all taste the same.

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If you are doing dungeons for challenging content you are doing it wrong. Step it up for gods sake.

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Originally Posted by Reap00

If you are doing dungeons for challenging content you are doing it wrong. Step it up for gods sake.

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Theres is no step up. Our Raids are just trials.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

Also, level 1 to 50 had a learning curve and it was fine. Now it goes from 1 to 90 and takes months and people are still like, nah, that one mechanic where you need to open your eyes is at level 48 too much. Remove it and put it in current savage or something. lol Like how patronising can you be?

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"nah those for arrows surely mean nothing, right?" *dies*

Yes game got nerved way too hard.. what we used to learn about lv 50 or towards 60 is now not even a given on 90 anymore... and those reworks... i just dont wanna see those dungeons anymore.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

Yes, people do not care for it, noone runs through those optional areas for the rewards that they give.

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Which is because of...

(A) hating the idea of dungeon being potentially longer than the standard 12-15 minutes,
(B) hating the ability to vary the length of dungeons (possibly having conflicting wants, etc.), or
(C) not finding the rewards sufficient (because they offered less reward-per-minute than not doing them)?

Those different reasons produce different best design outcomes. They should NOT be conflated with one another. {X lacks sufficient reward-efficiency to be considered worth doing} =/= {X must not be fun}.

I have never made the case that players couldn't, nor that they shouldn't, speedrun content. I'm not sure why you're acting like I had.

To continue with the side-rooms example (which were not my suggestion anyways, but whatever), if the rewards for doing side-rooms were proportionate, yes, it would become optimal (if only by a slight margin) to do said side-rooms for those with non-instant queues whose time between runs can't productively be used on other tasks.

In the content I actually had suggested, I gave no expectation that players would not speedrun the content. I pointed out merely that I'd like, say, for the difficulty to increase over the course of the dungeon in ways that spending additional time in the dungeon could deal with (such as through acquisition of key items, NPC allies, etc.), and rewards to be varied such that parties could have varying optimal routes. A Savage BiS groupl, for instance, would likely speedrun right to the end, while a less skill and/or min ilvl group might farm gear and acquire key items or the like that'd make the final fight easier for themselves. And, yes, I expect some premade groups might even use that Delve for rep-grinds instead. Etc., etc. The point is just to offer a new form of content that, more like a pseudo-zone able to provide whatever one might expect that setting to provide, would meet varied needs instead of being useful only for specifically gear/glam grinds and/or tome grinds in an inflexible proportion.

Which is all still secondary to just having a form of content that would be different from just the almost wholly sandbox grinds of Exploratory Missions on the one hand and from the interchangeable hallways sprints of "Dungeons" on the other and could thereby offer more for players to enjoy.

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Originally Posted by Aldath

This. It's usually the people who complain about this the ones who want WtW tanking and usually seek to skip. I come from Gw2 where dungeons have a more open design, and even there people devise ways to not do mechanics and skip adds, and it's become the expected way to play a dungeon.

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Yeah, that's because it's fun to do. Sneaking around bothersome stuff is fun. Cheesing mechanics is fun. I boggle at players whose imagination is limited to 'I'll just do whatever the developers want me to do'.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Which is because of...

(A) hating the idea of dungeon being potentially longer than the standard 12-15 minutes,
(B) hating the ability to vary the length of dungeons (possibly having conflicting wants, etc.), or
(C) not finding the rewards sufficient (because they offered less reward-per-minute than not doing them)?

Those different reasons produce different best design outcomes. They should NOT be conflated with one another. {X lacks sufficient reward-efficiency to be considered worth doing} =/= {X must not be fun}.

I have never made the case that players couldn't, nor that they shouldn't, speedrun content. I'm not sure why you're acting like I had.

To continue with the side-rooms example (which were not my suggestion anyways, but whatever), if the rewards for doing side-rooms were proportionate, yes, it would become optimal (if only by a slight margin) to do said side-rooms for those with non-instant queues whose time between runs can't productively be used on other tasks.

In the content I actually had suggested, I gave no expectation that players would not speedrun the content. I pointed out merely that I'd like, say, for the difficulty to increase over the course of the dungeon in ways that spending additional time in the dungeon could deal with (such as through acquisition of key items, NPC allies, etc.), and rewards to be varied such that parties could have varying optimal routes. A Savage BiS groupl, for instance, would likely speedrun right to the end, while a less skill and/or min ilvl group might farm gear and acquire key items or the like that'd make the final fight easier for themselves. And, yes, I expect some premade groups might even use that Delve for rep-grinds instead. Etc., etc. The point is just to offer a new form of content that, more like a pseudo-zone able to provide whatever one might expect that setting to provide, would meet varied needs instead of being useful only for specifically gear/glam grinds and/or tome grinds in an inflexible proportion.

Which is all still secondary to just having a form of content that would be different from just the almost wholly sandbox grinds of Exploratory Missions on the one hand and from the interchangeable hallways sprints of "Dungeons" on the other and could thereby offer more for players to enjoy.

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I bet if dungeons had side rooms with optional mini bosses you could tackle that awarded a good chunk of leveling EXP, more people would be inclined to explore it; I definitely would.
Maybe have what miniboss you fight random so not all encounters are the same, and introduce a new currency you can exchange for things by doing 'optional routes' in dungeons, dropped from the minibosses.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

Yes, people do not care for it, noone runs through those optional areas for the rewards that they give. If noone explores that part, what is the point of adding it in the first place? This is why, whenever someone says, just add a reward, the question needs to be asked what reward do you think would entice people over there? For an added question, when was the last time you went to get the treasure chest at the start of AK that contains a minion just before the first boss? Or do you skip it every time? This is the sort of thing that is being mentioned. Noone wants to do the optional route because the reward is not there. So, what reward would entice everyone there when everyone has different wants and needs?

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That's a flawed argument.

Because a dungeon will be boring and people will skip parts doesn't mean you should make them boring from the get-go.

You are assuming everyone shares this hive mentality. There are also people out there who will not touch stuff if it's boring or only run content with friends where what you are saying is not an issue. It's like saying why make a video game if people will quit it once they are done.

And I'll level the same criticism against the current job design. Just because people will find an optimal rotation doesn't mean you should therefore strip everything away to make it even easier and boring. That line of thinking is just reductive. What's the point of higher difficulties if all it does is prolong my play time? There is more nuance here yet you point every player in the same light. I'm not a robot and I don't play as one. Raw efficiency isn't my goal when I set out and play an MMO. I also don't mind if, say, a new player hasn't done a certain path yet and I tag along for "nothing" in return. Not everyone is as calculating.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

That's a flawed argument.

Because a dungeon will be boring and people will skip parts doesn't mean you should make them boring from the get-go.

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Not once did I say anything about it being fun or not, it was all about the reward. You can make something as fun as you want, the general populace will still ignore it unless it provides a suitable reward. Like it or not, that is the mentality of players now.

You can even see this in Variant/Criterion Dungeons. People have said they are fun, but they won't continue to run them if the reward isn't there. The evidence is right there, slapping everyone in the face, yet people always seem to forget, or don't want to admit, that this is the reality of the situation. There are countless examples of this across all types of content, so what makes you think your idea (or anyone else's for that matter) is going to be different?

As for comments about jobs, that is a completely different discussion. No, stripping everything from a job is not a good idea, because you are making it more boring to play, however, on the flipside, should you keep things if they are getting in the way of other potential improvements? In FFXIV, people play harder content, not only for the enjoyment of the fight, but also the gear reward. As a general rule, people stop doing Savage and Ultimates once they have the rewards they want.

I also do not paint every player in the same light, I just tell you what the general player base does. Are there outliers? Of course, there always will be, doesn't stop the majority from doing what it wants to do. You might not rely on raw efficiency, however, players do value their time a lot more, especially the average player who has to play the game around a job and family.

So again, when you make a piece of content, you need to think about how the general player base will handle it. How will they progress, how will this change over time and is there a big enough reward for them to spend their limited time in doing this piece of content over something else that has a better reward attached to it.

I've been going through MSQ again with an alt as they finished Duty Support and I feel like the changes are less for Duty Support and more consistency of mechanics and indicators of those mechanics. I've seen Duty Support able to do some sophisticated mechanics, more sophisticated than some of the original mechanics in these changed dungeons. But the one thing I have been seeing again and again is the introduction of mechanic indicators that we're all used to from higher level content earlier in the MSQ or streamlining previously varied indicators to the more commonly used ones. They're also introducing types of mechanics we've only seen later earlier because of these changes. So it's really felt like just trying to streamline the MSQ experience and make it consistent to me.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

That's a flawed argument.

Because a dungeon will be boring and people will skip parts doesn't mean you should make them boring from the get-go.

You are assuming everyone shares this hive mentality. There are also people out there who will not touch stuff if it's boring or only run content with friends where what you are saying is not an issue. It's like saying why make a video game if people will quit it once they are done.

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Just leveling exp won't be enough. It has to be something worth of value for everyone who maxed out their characters - something like high amounts of gil / tomes / popular renewable currency that can be used anywhere no matter ilvl difficulty.

A fully maxed out player might be doing their roulettes for tomes (and that's the only thing that matters now if you want to farm tomes for relic weapon...) and the side boss gives nothing of value except time wasted for that goal because it becomes "optional".

Now that I think of it, why not bring back HM dungeons? Heck could prolly save some time/development and just do away with the criterion junk, instead have a like variant of an existing dungeon, one thats around EX difficulty and doesnt involve trusts. Id love some difficult dungeons that dont follow that trash, boss, trash, boss, trash, boss, routine as well...

Back when I was a sprout, we had to grind dungeons uphill, both ways, in the snow!

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Originally Posted by Hanayumi

Now that I think of it, why not bring back HM dungeons? Heck could prolly save some time/development and just do away with the criterion junk, instead have a like variant of an existing dungeon, one thats around EX difficulty and doesnt involve trusts. Id love some difficult dungeons that dont follow that trash, boss, trash, boss, trash, boss, routine as well...

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Other than being more dungeons for players to do, the Hard dungeons didn't really bring a new form of content to the game. "Hard" was just a way saying "this is intended for level cap players".

I'm also curious about what you have in mind when you say a dungeon shouldn't just be "trash, boss, trash, boss". That's pretty much been the dungeon standard in every MMORPG I've played. Sometimes there were different routes to take but in the end they were still just "trash, boss, trash, boss".

Imagine deciding all your level design should be made for your crappy bots instead of players...

Copperbell is a lot better now though.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Other than being more dungeons for players to do, the Hard dungeons didn't really bring a new form of content to the game. "Hard" was just a way saying "this is intended for level cap players".

I'm also curious about what you have in mind when you say a dungeon shouldn't just be "trash, boss, trash, boss". That's pretty much been the dungeon standard in every MMORPG I've played. Sometimes there were different routes to take but in the end they were still just "trash, boss, trash, boss".

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Hard mode dungeons had different gimmicks compared to the originals. Tam-Tara hard has a very different direction compared to normal, Wanderer's Palace Hard doesn't feature stealth and has a different main mechanic etc...
And narratively they were interesting because it made dungeons feel less like they were frozen in time. It was cool seeing what became of them since your last time.

All that stuff is old. The game is too long to have to learn the mechanics of every dungeon on the way through. Over time, stuffs gotta go.

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Originally Posted by Korbei

All that stuff is old. The game is too long to have to learn the mechanics of every dungeon on the way through. Over time, stuffs gotta go.

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Yeah bro I love it when the few combat interludes that break up the hours and hours of walking and talking are extremely repetitive and boring with the same mechanics over and over. And I love grinding dungeons that were already boring the first time for tomestones.

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Originally Posted by Korbei

All that stuff is old. The game is too long to have to learn the mechanics of every dungeon on the way through. Over time, stuffs gotta go.

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You don't need to, the vast majority of mechanics can be reacted to in real time, you just need to know your mechanic markers, which are virtually universal at this point.

"Hard" dungeons were ways to reuse old assets so that they could maintain a higher content output, which, given that they were usually just as fun as originals, seems just fine to me. The label "Return to X" or "X (Reprise)" or "X (Another)" --nearer to the originally proposed JPN term, iirc-- would probably have been more intuitive but doesn't slip off the tongue as easily, to say the least.

Yeah... dont mean bring back HM dungeons exactly as they were before, I ment tougher dungeon, that doesnt follow the usual dungeon layout, with mechanics/puzzles that arent boggled down by Trusts and reuse previous dungeon stages/assets to save on time/development rather something like variant/criterion.

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Originally Posted by Hanayumi

Yeah... dont mean bring back HM dungeons exactly as they were before, I ment tougher dungeon, that doesnt follow the usual dungeon layout, with mechanics/puzzles that arent boggled down by Trusts and reuse previous dungeon stages/assets to save on time/development rather something like variant/criterion.

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Which I'd really like. But, you then make it so that Dungeon roulettes are about doing what one interestingly can with the dungeon model (a mostly linear string of encounters alternating between series of trash and a boss), rather than just 12-15 minute maximally efficient ways to get tomes outside of Hunts, which is apparently a can of worms?

Less jokingly, I think we could do a lot already by just raising the starting difficulty of each dungeon slightly and/or reducing their minimum item level slightly and then...

1. rewarding Minimum Item Level runs with slightly higher reward efficiency (ideally, based on the additional amount by which ilvl is synced down, so the more stats and thereby speed you'd lose, the greater the reward to match),
2. making Minimum Item Level a choice from the main Duty Finder menu (instead of a being a side-option hidden within an advanced settings menu), such as a second checkbox option right on the contents and roulettes themselves and accessible to/with matchmaking, and
3. allowing players to sign up for multiple Roulettes at a time.

Each of those things above would benefit all content and play while also providing about the same value as a simple scale-up. That's not to say that we can't or shouldn't do scale-ups or multiple difficulties as well, but we may as well start with what is most broadly efficient and effective.

__________

May as well, imo, stick with Hard Mode dungeons having at least a different layout of the original dungeon and the allowance for new bosses and mechanics, with all dungeons just having at least a tiny bit of difficulty at truly minimum item level (which would be well below what most people will have upon that dungeon's release anyways) and the easily accessible option to thereby scale to that.

So long as one is not losing access to gameplay, scaling down has significant advantages over scaling up, in that nonetheless skilled players who are still catching up can bolster the relevant playerbase size, since the dungeon wouldn't be soft-gated behind gear-grinds (instead holding a constant difficulty).

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

Just leveling exp won't be enough. It has to be something worth of value for everyone who maxed out their characters - something like high amounts of gil / tomes / popular renewable currency that can be used anywhere no matter ilvl difficulty.

A fully maxed out player might be doing their roulettes for tomes (and that's the only thing that matters now if you want to farm tomes for relic weapon...) and the side boss gives nothing of value except time wasted for that goal because it becomes "optional".

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And yet people join PF groups just to help prog without getting anything tangible out of it. Again, not everyone plays like a robot. Some people play for fun as well. The current jobs and the dungeon design (especially in conjunction) just isn't so people want to spend even less time in them. That's the issue.

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Originally Posted by FenyxRising

Keeper of the Lake's last boss went from a crazy AoE dodgefest to a snoozefest
Castrum Abania's second boss went from the cool elemental mechanic to generic AoE attacks
The Aery's last boss no longer has Estinien's RP
Practically every boss now just jumps back to the center by itself invalidating the tank's role completely

Duty Support has now made every required ARR to SB dungeon a McDonald's hamburger, mass-produced, streamlined, and they all taste the same.

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None of these being remotely difficult pre and post change. The only dungeon I could ping as difficult is the start to...what it is Doma Castle? Where if you pull the first mobs with the Giants they hit very hard. That's about it.

More over why are we pretending to care about old dungeons? Most of us aren't running them for fun or anything really. And even more still most of yall care about time, and easier old dungeons means faster times.

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

None of these being remotely difficult pre and post change. The only dungeon I could ping as difficult is the start to...what it is Doma Castle? Where if you pull the first mobs with the Giants they hit very hard. That's about it.

More over why are we pretending to care about old dungeons? Most of us aren't running them for fun or anything really. And even more still most of yall care about time, and easier old dungeons means faster times.

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You really haven't learned from your vacation have you? Need another one? If not don't speak for others.

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Originally Posted by Noumenon

You really haven't learned from your vacation have you? Need another one? If not don't speak for others.

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Nice to see folks keeping tabs on me. Kinda weird but hey whatever ticks your clock. In fact my last post was before you probably joined here officially so that tells me you're an alt of someone especially with how you're talking.

Also point me to a sizable group who cares that much about old dungeons. Next it's been documented plenty that much of this playerbase opts for speed over fun. Tanks that's don't pull wall to wall are looked down on because "they're wasting the groups time". Again all documented on this very site. I don't have to say it, it's here.

Also ironic you tell me not to speak for others yet aren't you kinda speaking for OP? You know, the one I actually responded to? Odd...

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

And yet people join PF groups just to help prog without getting anything tangible out of it. Again, not everyone plays like a robot. Some people play for fun as well. The current jobs and the dungeon design (especially in conjunction) just isn't so people want to spend even less time in them. That's the issue.

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It is one thing joining a PF where everyone has the same goal, it is another thing joining a DF party where everyone could potentially have different goals.

If we do go the route of an optional boss that rewards exp, there are a few scenarios, the first is noone needs it, so it is ignored, the second is everyone needs it, might as well go after it. The last is when you have a mix and this is where the grey area comes in. You could say, if majority wants it, they should go after it. However, if the tank doesn't need it, they can force the party to ignore it, you obviously cannot kill the boss without the tank after all, or at least without more complications, which inevitably forces the rest of the party who does want the optional exp to miss out. What if the party is 50/50? Skip or not?

You could even see this behaviour in older dungeons where, as the game got older, people started to skip the optional stuff more and more. Now, it could be argued that the rewards weren't good enough, or not worth going after which is true, but that then comes back to the question of, what reward IS good enough. Even things like tomes or gil isn't going to be enough as different people have different ideas on how much the value that resource and in the end, in the vast majority of cases, people will stop caring about it as they see no value in it once they have everything they need/want from it.

Coming from another angle though, you mention a person willingly going into a PF to help 'for fun'. No reward there, however, in an optional area of a dungeon, someone will only want to do the boss 'for fun' if the boss is itself fun, which is something completely subjective.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

[*]making Minimum Item Level a choice from the main Duty Finder menu (instead of a being a side-option hidden within an advanced settings menu), such as a second checkbox option right on the contents and roulettes themselves and accessible to/with matchmaking, and.

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This would just make queues longer as it would split them. And do you really want to spend more time doing Sastasha and other similar dungeons? That’s all min iLvl would do: make dungeons last longer as there is nothing difficult in there. I don’t want to spend more time killing boring trash in there. (Edit: even at min iLvl , bosses have tank busters that still hit like wet noodles). However, I am not against min iLvl for trials as there’s only a boss in there and the interest is in doing mechanics.

Personally I’d rather wish we’d get more varied fights and mechanics. Atm trash is pretty much all the same from early dungeons to the last ones. You pull them all and you aoe. I wish some packs would have unique mechanics, like some kill order, make and add immune and if you don’t stun/sleep it while you kill the rest your party will get zapped, etc. Criterion dungeon mobs had some interest. It doesn’t need to be as punishing for regular dungeons but it’d be nice if they did something.

Same thing for regular dungeon bosses. We now have most of the time only one boss with a big hitbox and the fight revolves only about moving out of stupid in time requiring no coordination and just minimal observation of the environment. I would like unique and varied mechanics, a boss that spawns a number of adds that have to be killed a certain way or kited, add some traps, some switches to activate at some point, etc. Atm, save for a few exceptions, dungeons mostly feel all the same save for the decor.

Another thing they could use from variant dungeons is the different paths but make it random, not a player choice (because players will chose the fastest and easiest).

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Originally Posted by Toutatis

This would just make queues longer as it would split them. And do you really want to spend more time doing Sastasha and other similar dungeons?

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You're complaining about something that was effectively solved in the very next sentence from what you quoted (just allowing players to simultaneously queue for multiple roulettes simultaneously, as in most other similar MMOs), and then cherry-picking the first of over 80 dungeons to say that no one would want more difficulty in that content?

And no, minimum item level doesn't just extend the time spent on trash. Have you... never used it? Or noted that relative stat reductions equally affect bosses, allowing their tankbusters to be less akin to wet noodles, failures to actually be punishing, and so forth. Just as it does on Min Ilvl Trials or any other content, which would be permitted under the exact same suggestion:

...i.e., proportionately greater reward under a now-easily-visible, immediately-accessible, matchmakable Minimum Item Level option that can be queued for simultaneously with that content's non-Min Ilvl variant since they'd each be their own thing and you could queue simultaneously even for multiple roulettes as if they were any other specific duty.

Moreover, these things are not mutually exclusive. We can (A) revamp trash to have less health but simultaneously be more threatening or do whatever else we like to improve the dungeons experience... and, separately and independently, (B) make it so players have the option to simply roll right over it all through absurd ilvl ceilings (that then get players miffed when they random a party member that can actually still use gear from that dungeon)...

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I would like unique and varied mechanics, a boss that spawns a number of adds that have to be killed a certain way or kited, add some traps, some switches to activate at some point, etc.

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Same here, but you're describing additional content work. Which is not mutually exclusive to just allowing proportionate reward to an option for those dungeons to retain their original difficulty levels, whatever that may be.

I'd love to see dungeons that have environmental mechanics, complex and challenging bosses, and so forth, but that's not a modifier that can be easily placed, today, to benefit all the existing dungeons; such would be, instead, new dungeons. That's why my suggestion was framed as it was; it's simply a quick and immediate improvement available for the whole content type that would not get in the way of whatever other future improvements may be feasible.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

And no, minimum item level doesn't just extend the time spent on trash. Have you... never used it? Or noted that relative stat reductions equally affect bosses, allowing their tankbusters to be less akin to wet noodles, failures to actually be punishing, and so forth. Just as it does on Min Ilvl Trials or any other content, which would be permitted under the exact same suggestion:

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Oh I've used it. Regular dungeons are just too easy and tank busters still hit like wet noodles. To me, min Ilvl doesn't add any interest to those dungeons. It just makes fights last longer.

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Originally Posted by Toutatis

Oh I've used it. Regular dungeons are just too easy and tank busters still hit like wet noodles. To me, min Ilvl doesn't add any interest to those dungeons. It just makes fights last longer.

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I have to somewhat disagree, but maybe the dungeons I've used it on just felt better with it than others. Had I been doing Min Ilvl on the likes of Smileton instead of, say, Pharos Sirius, I'd probably come to a similar impression.



Again, though, I'm all for trying to also apply additional overarching tweaks to dungeons to make them more fun. Reducing trash HP while creating couple dozen or so additional special actions that trash might use to quickly spread across dungeons would go a long way. I'm all for revising the boss fights to give them some additional mechanics or even just triggers to aid pacing (letting downtime phases end early if everyone's already in position or both already in position and healed up). All that can still be done atop game-wide helpful changes.

I pointed out Min Ilvl simply as a feature we have now that we scarcely utilize, both because of how it's hidden away and that, reward-wise, it's purely a loss, instead of being at least competitive (even if only for skilled parties). It's an easy fix that could benefit the whole game.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Again, though, I'm all for trying to also apply additional overarching tweaks to dungeons to make them more fun. Reducing trash HP while creating couple dozen or so additional special actions that trash might use to quickly spread across dungeons would go a long way. I'm all for revising the boss fights to give them some additional mechanics or even just triggers to aid pacing (letting downtime phases end early if everyone's already in position or both already in position and healed up). All that can still be done atop game-wide helpful changes.

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On this I 100% agree. I would also be for faster mechanics in regular dungeons (then min Ilvl might make sense). I don't see them revisiting the old ones but for the future it would be nice to depart from the EW single tunnel with 2 packs of damage sponge adds and a boss, rinse and repeat.

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Originally Posted by Toutatis

On this I 100% agree. I would also be for faster mechanics in regular dungeons (then min Ilvl might make sense). I don't see them revisiting the old ones but for the future it would be nice to depart from the single tunnel with 2 packs of damage sponge adds and a boss, rinse and repeat.

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Agreed. Though, while I'd prefer more variation on principle, I don't actually think the problem is in that we have alternate between (A) a roughly equal weights of trash and (B) a boss three times over to get each dungeon... so much as just that the trash itself is painfully underutilized.

Over in WoW, for instance, some trash pulls in Mythic+ or even back in the likes of Icecrown Citadel back in the day could feel plenty engaging. We just can't take the label ("trash") as an excuse for actual trash (quality) portions of content.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I pointed out Min Ilvl simply as a feature we have now that we scarcely utilize, both because of how it's hidden away and that, reward-wise, it's purely a loss, instead of being at least competitive (even if only for skilled parties). It's an easy fix that could benefit the whole game.

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There's even a mechanism in the game to make it more rewarding: the increased drop rate that's applied to Extreme trial orchestrion rolls.

Imagine slapping a version of that on the Shoebill or Starbird. There would for sure be player participation.

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Originally Posted by vetch

There's even a mechanism in the game to make it more rewarding: the increased drop rate that's applied to Extreme trial orchestrion rolls.

Imagine slapping a version of that on the Shoebill or Starbird. There would for sure be player participation.

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Yep. Which is pretty much what I've been wanting to go for, although less as a bribe as simply a matter of balance.

I should probably clarify what I mean by "proportionate". Your party's average ilvl is 650, but you're doing Minimum Item Level, dropping you to i600. Every 10 ilvl is roughly a ~5.7% increase to primary stat... let's just say a 6% throughput increase overall for rough/example maths. By giving up 50 ilvl, your party is giving up roughly 34% throughput.

So, at 50 ilvls and therefore at ~34% throughput increase wasted, whatever your chance is for each and every piece of loot... multiply that by 1.34. That includes orchestrion rolls, mounts, rare pets, and coffers/weapons/accessories themselves (2 guaranteed drops x 1.34x drop chance = 68% chance at an additional drop).

So, you simply trade the ease per clear for proportionate reward per clear. If it'd allow you to skip phases and therefore reduce the overall portion of downtime when including boss jumps and load-in and exit times, but generally farming would be slightly, slightly faster with the Minimum Item Level setting.


*Example maths to be polished/revised, but hopefully this gets the idea across.