Most likely the reason for the instancing of these zones has to do with things like how they split world zones when new content drops that will result in more players trying to access the zone than the zone can normally handle. We see it with the superfate pops that drop the token items to buy rewards from the special vendors in town. Once people know its due to pop, if you arent there within like the first 20 seconds you're going to sit there getting error messages until its dead and people leave.Quote:
Originally Posted by TaleraRistain
Please dont bring back Relic Quest Zones
Printable View
-
08-08-2023, 03:14 PMRitsukoSonoda
-
08-08-2023, 03:33 PMDixieBellOCEThe hardcap is 144 players, on JP (Elemental) servers there were 3-4 instances going at once for each zone during the peak of the content, instancing had to be there to compensate for itQuote:
Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda
-
08-08-2023, 11:48 PMZephyrMenodoraI already did, 9 years ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE
Up to the point the "content" became not only tedious, but boring for my tastes on top of it.
I also don't care if people like long grinds. Some people love repeitition and tedium and they get a feeling of accomplishment from it. I don't. I feel it's wasted life. I'm entitled to state what I enjoy - which to me is more interesting quests and challenges rather than afking until Fates spawn - or similar content that is mindless and dull. -
08-09-2023, 01:44 AMTintBut the alternatives are there?Quote:
Originally Posted by GTK0HLK
Ultimate Raids offer a weapon for hardcore raider.
Savage Raids offer a weapon for raider.
Ex Trials offer a weapon for the midcore players.
With tomestones and some normal raid you get a weapon for casuals.
There is the crafted weapon you can buy at the market board for people who have no time at all.
And the relic weapon is for people who like to grind.
If you take away the grind then what should the people who like grinding do? Only the alterntives are left. -
08-09-2023, 02:42 AMTaleraRistainThey might be able to alleviate those issues with the system they already use now where they make multiple instances of the zone. Still a separate instance but one we can freely change between, meet up with friends easier, and queue up for something while we interact with the field content.Quote:
Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda
The problem with Eureka and Bozja hiding things away in instances is that you're stuck with whoever's in there (or not in there), they had maximums, and they would close and shunt people to new instances after a certain point so it could be hard to join your friends already in progress on something if you came later. Also they require you to go to an out of the way NPC to access them. If they can integrate these into the expansion zones, then they make it much easier for players to choose to interact in some manner. That will help keep them alive since it's a much more natural way to access and the daily and weekly missions could help with future-proofing by giving a reason to go do it. Even if someone gets all the basic unique rewards they could do things like the FATE gemstone tokens you get towards bigger rewards, or have another avenue to get desired consumables like dyes, or have rare drops that sell well on the MB like Eureka. -
08-09-2023, 07:37 AM4clubbedaceAH youre one of the complainers where i dont have bozja 2 to piss about in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur
god no arr relics are easily the worst most tedious ways to do it, never againQuote:
Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur
-
08-09-2023, 09:00 PMraelgun
Op, just admit it.
You don't like content where you get behind others so try to play the narrative long lasting content is bad or to not include it.
This is a required change to the game and could see a return.
Hopefully this makes players like you quit the game, make sure you create I quit thread when you do -
08-10-2023, 02:38 AMMsMisato
Honestly there should be multiple ways to get the relics for both casual and grind players. I think bozja was kind of the right track with the initial grind to unlock the steps but then the drastic level gates, the time gates of cll, the crazy farming for lost ability pots and once done there is no incentive to go back again which ruins it and puts people off
-
08-10-2023, 02:50 AMdspguy
I used to feel like the ARR relic was right where it needed to be, difficulty-wise and time-wise. Rare drop from content that has no other value to the player seemed ok (given that you had to have the weapon on and be level 50 and therefore gain 0 exp). The tomestone grind seemed reasonable. The Atma book step was good. The Alexandrite step was ok. Light farm was a PITA but it wasn't much different than the fate-farming step. Etc etc.
It all seemed perfectly fine to do that grind instead of taking on the Final Coil of Bahamut and clearing that. After all, you are earning this amazingly awesome weapon.
But I then felt robbed. Because less than 4 months later, Patch 3.0 came out, levels went up to 60 and this item that took me months to earn by doing it all when it was "current content" was suddenly replaced by a lousy level 58 weapon. If the "relic" was something that kept growing somehow, like LOTRO weapons do, maybe I'd feel differently. But calling it this "amazing weapon of legend" such as what it is referred to in-game is a complete joke.
Of course, now that we've seen various expansion cycles, it would be ridiculous to think that a weapon earned in 2015 could hold a candle to a weapon released in 2016 or 2018 or 2023. However, an entire generation of FF players, specifically FFXI players, lived in a world where gear earned in 2003 was still coveted in 2008. And a "relic" in FFXI as well as EQ1 was head and shoulders above anything else you could get... and the effort was on the order of doing a FFXIV "relic" when it was current content (time-wise, before all of the nerfs).
Which makes me come to the conclusion that... for a temporary weapon that will have only a very short time actually residing in my main-hand slot before it is relegated to the glamour dresser... the effort required to earn one in the EW expansion is exactly where it needs to be. -
08-10-2023, 03:52 AMRolder50
I think the most common reason people complain about the lack of a Eureka or Bozja, is that they removed it and replaced it with absolutely nothing. While also increasing the time between patches.
-
08-10-2023, 04:12 AMdspguy
I liked Eureka and appreciated it for what it was: a mini-game within a game that had its own unique rewards with only a few rewards you "take with you" out of it. But even in Eureka, the effort necessary to get a weapon that is only truly useful for a short amount of time, simply isn't worth a player's time. The EW tomestone method is honestly the most balanced method as far as effort vs reward.
-
08-10-2023, 05:36 AMWinterfangExcept the Physeos stage with the elemental bonus means that the weapon has more shelf life then the typical weapon or other relics. It's always the best weapon to carry Eureka and there's no reason to not have Shamash Physeos in my armory chest ready to go. That's more than what I can say about any of the other final stage relics (Zeta, Lux, Blade)Quote:
Originally Posted by dspguy
On to the second point, the EW Relic requires no effort. I get it immediately after Hildabrand since The game throws Tomes at you for benign and easy stuff like Rouletting into Satasha or Crystal Tower and you can hold tomes until then. The way they handled EW relics completely misses the point of Relics in the first place but even if the devs truly wanted current Relics obtained by player choice, there was certainly better ways to do it. -
08-10-2023, 05:50 AMNicodemus_Mercy
I say why not have... both? To be clear, I despise Eureka and Bozja style content, but I also recognize that other players enjoy that type on content.
There's no reason that Eureka/Bozja style content has to be the ONLY route to advance a relic. Bozja at least offered alternative methods to advance the Shadowbringers relic for at least some steps. So why not just make it so that players can progress their relic in the manner that appeals to them most? Eureka/Bozja style for those that enjoy that, and dungeon/fate grinds for those who prefer that. -
08-10-2023, 06:24 AMRenaltHow dare you be sensible on these forums! To the goal with you! ( I hid catnip in the pillow )Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicodemus_Mercy
-
08-10-2023, 06:58 AMdspguyI'm not sure it gains you anything. It has the same damage as a level 76 weapon. In all likelihood, it would be replaced at 78. Maybe it has some substats that makes it better? So instead of about 4 months, it is 4 months and 1 day while you gain those extra levels.Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfang
Besides, you can avoid all of that and just wait for expansion day and buy the upgraded tomestone weapon for poetics. It makes it pretty much obsolete too quickly to spend the time necessary. -
08-10-2023, 07:03 AMChrysOCEI think they mean it remains relevant within Eureka, as it has an elemental bonus within the relic stats.Quote:
Originally Posted by dspguy
-
08-10-2023, 07:22 AMAceHaze1
As long as it's not the "Blow out your brains grinding tomestones to give to one NPC for the rare material you need for your weapon that they just so conveniently happen to pull out of their ass because reasons" that is currently going on...
-
08-10-2023, 07:27 AMAtelier-BagurThe only critical problem with Eureka weapons and the content itself is that....whats even the point to it? The content is done, it has no agency or relevancy to the rest of the game. To the majority, there is no sense of satisfaction gained from continuing with playing Eureka once you've done and collected everything. So saying that the Eureka weapons outlasted whatever current relevant content is there is just major copium for the flaw of Eureka's progression. Nowadays only the most dedicated and niche group continue playing Eureka or Bozja for the memes or to help newer players get into at the very least Baldesion Arsenal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfang
To me, the content is extremely padded out and boring because theres no pizzaz, no substance to it other than just farming FATES and BA. I would like to compare the content to classic WoW but thats not fair, because while there is a grind to classic WoW; the journey is set dressed with all sorts of open world activities to dive to, besides just farming mobs. You go explore, do dungeons, do quests etc. If Eureka and Bozja were designed to have that classic hardcore MMO feeling, quite frankly it brought the most boring aspect of that journey with its iteration.
This is my major problem with exploratory content. It lacks relevancy very quickly, its padded out and its not interesting enough to hold "meaningful" retention. People diving into it nowadays are only doing it because they're tied to that expansion's relic; which is mostly used for glam as well as completing its story. What I propose is for the devs to not repeat into the same formulaic design choice with Eureka and Bozja and to transform it into something that's has more choices and substance to its design; without going to just designing the zone itself for the sake of a long grind.
I wasnt impressed when I dove into the content the first time (I mean besides the raids), and after going through it 4 times on different characters, I'm still not impressed. -
08-10-2023, 07:46 AMSupersnow845
^the fact that BA is still run every day on most servers shows that eureka has a longevity that outlives most other content, BA vets Hoover up logos so there is already demand and money to be made and new people constantly join wanting their ozma mount
How can we look at a large extreme raid from 4 years ago still run multiple times per day and call the content lacking in longevity
People don’t even run the variant that was released 2 weeks ago -
08-10-2023, 08:00 AMAtelier-BagurThe only reason BA outlasted in its longevity is because the process of actually doing it and clearing it is gated very hard behind a niche group of people. You're pretty much forced to go outside the game, join a specific discord and get into a BA run where you're being lead and carried by a group of very dedicated people whom bless their hearts are the only reason why that content is still doable for the majority of the playerbase who delve into Eureka for the first time. Do note that only BA is part of this. Thank goodness the other raids like CLL, Dalriada and Delibrum Reginae arent as obtuse to actually get in and do (you only need to shoot up a PF for DR)Quote:
Originally Posted by Supersnow845
Also god forbid any hapless group tries to do BA by themselves because these same group of people hold all the cards for these runs practically holding rights and reservations for anyone doing BA; and that in of itself I wouldnt call a good designed content. Why do you think they never tried to replicate it with Bozja and made the raid more streamlined? Granted BA is fun! but like I said, for most of the playerbase, its a hard requirement for you to join these groups where you cant even chat with the raid leaders and expect you to mute your mic so it kinda also fails a little bit of the social aspect of it. Im not blaming these guys at all btw, Im grateful for what they do and they HAVE to actually put in these restrictions for carries because of the nature of the content.
The reason why variants die quickly is because anyone can easily get to it with or without a group; as well as there is a manageable completion aspect to the content that doesnt overstay its welcome. Its not designed to be grinded out for the long term (despite its potsherd rewards). -
08-10-2023, 08:07 AMSupersnow845So what if you need to join a discord outside the game to run the content, it’s an MMO you are supposed to team up with people and work with them, this whole idea that everything should be doable solo or with a set of randoms in PF is half the problem with 14, it’s the same as people who go into eureka, find it obtuse, don’t ask for help then complain eureka is obtuse, eureka is designed around cooperation and the fact that people like cooperating and helping is why eureka continues to live on and why people can still access it whenever they wantQuote:
Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur
And I’ve never met a BA group who doesn’t let you chat (unless you want to talk about your dog during ozma calls), talk to the BA hosts and leaders, they are nice people and do the content because they like it
I still don’t see this as an argument against eureka’s longevity, it’s the oldest content run daily that isn’t on a roulette -
08-10-2023, 08:09 AMAtelier-Bagur
I have my own share of criticisms for variants and criterion as well. The most agreed point is that of the shallow rewards for doing criterion. Variants however dont suffer from this as much because of the nature of wanting to complete all entries and getting all the glams and emotes. Besides fixing the rewards to be much better for Criterion (such as introduce an alternate way to earn guaranteed savage gear; perhaps on a weekly basis if you want to pad it out). I would propose that they do introduce a Variant Roulette now that we're getting our 3rd variant dungeon coming 6.5. Perhaps even make it a tad unique by offering additional bonus tomestone rewards for making the group try to follow specified routes.
-
08-10-2023, 08:10 AMGember
I personally do struggle to go back to Bozja and Eureka, but that is not because its bad content. Its because its old content and the incentive to get a relic has a lot less reasons to it. It just boils down to glamour when the expansion for it ends. However there is a lot of players who still do the relic quest zones to this day despite it being old. As long as there is fun glam to be obtain, a system to socialize, and a fun zone to explore; its completely valid to want it.
-
08-10-2023, 08:11 AMdspguyI get the point. It still has value in a zone that yields weapons of little-to-no use outside of it. I'm cool with that. But that and BA isn't a legitimate argument that the pre-EW relic systems were any good. The fact remains that you only have a "top-tier weapon" for a few months by going down the relic path and then it is relegated to the glamour dresser. It isn't very "relic."Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrysOCE
-
08-10-2023, 08:12 AMTheNightYou forget that you're talking to a lunatic who played through the MSQ four times. They treat this game as a single player game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Supersnow845
-
08-10-2023, 08:13 AMKaurhzEh, there are still plenty of people that do regularly run it for other reasons be it for Gil or to complete the raid(s) (Which I would say could be a design flaw), or for the Bozjan notes completion for the mount. Once I'm all done collecting all my Kinna weapons, it's probably going to be my main source of content (BA - It was a really thrilling experience doing it, even when wiping, frankly) outside of my regular farming activities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur
I wouldn't say it lacks meaningful retention, and nor would I say it loses relevancy quickly, it'll always be relevant in some shape. If you were to theoretically push it as a standalone and detach every reward structure, then maybe. But that would apply to every strand of content. I would probably argue that, if anything, it isn't very well future-proofed at all and the communal aspect has deteriorated in the case of Bozja. - I was doing Bozja a few months back to collect a few items for glam and to sweep up a Dalriada achievement (and still do pop in to level my alt). It's still as active as ever, but a lot of it is just "Lfg z3" - On top of this, if you look at how the general FATEs are (which dominate the majority of the time spent in Bozja" - Then these just fall over pretty quickly now. It's a pretty pathetic experience in this regard.
There's a whole host of problems with Eureka and Bozja, but IMO retention and relevancy aren't any of them. - I will agree with you though in that they don't repeat the same 'formulaic' design for the next iteration of exploratory content - But should instead look at transforming it and adding more substance. There is a lot they could do like incorporate gathering and crafting. The idea of crafting logograms and essences rather than farming them direct is a nice idea for me. For as substance-less as Island Sanctuary can be, there's still quite a bit of exploratory content that could pick up from it, albeit in a more substantiated design. -
08-10-2023, 08:14 AMAwesomeJr44I'm never going to not find that hilarious.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNight
Again, no hate towards alts themselves, but how is this guy gonna say any of this with a straight face? -
08-10-2023, 08:22 AMAtelier-BagurAgain, the problem is because of the very gated nature of BA because of its complex and difficulty, its not even a fun thing because you're being solely carried and you're expected to not goof around and shut up and follow the raid leaders like an oiled machine. This feeling doesnt happen at all with CLL, Dalriada and Delibrum Reginae where because the content isnt so restrictive, people have more personal agency which is the ideal in an MMO space. I dont want to sound like I'm giving flak to the discord people who do BA runs because like I said, without them, BA would just be dead, but at the same time I blame its terrible design that forces the content to be ran this way. Its not fully fun. Most people who do BA are mostly just glad they're done and over with it, got their Ozma mount and leave Eureka. And again, the fact that BA is solefully ran by very few dedicated discords groups doesnt speak to how well it does for the majority of the playerbase. Eureka still has a bad stigma because of how tedious, long and boring it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Supersnow845
Also ok, you say this is an MMO and I'm supposed to team up with people. Alright lets say I do that. Can I grab a few of my buddies and do BA by ourselves for the heck of it? No? Whats that, if I do so, we mess up those dedicate discord groups of their schedule because theres only 1 BA instance? Oh Im sorry I guess I cant. -
08-10-2023, 08:27 AMSupersnow845The BA groups enforce people to run a particular way because if you go in and mess around like in CLL you will just get smacked by a rouge mob and die and then a healer has to spend a lot of money getting you up off the floor, and if you get smacked by an annoying mob (like a sprite or centaur) then you are endangering the entire groupQuote:
Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur
And oh the front of “can I just get some buddies together and do a run” yes you can, just ask the discord for your server, they will make space if you want to do a private run, again it’s not hard to ask. This is what eureka is -
08-10-2023, 08:28 AMAtelier-BagurI fail to understand whats even the implication here and how this makes any of my points lack sense. I have yet to see you give any actual counter-arguments against what I stated in the OP. Unless you actually have nothing to add to the discussionQuote:
Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44
-
08-10-2023, 08:30 AMTheNightSounds like a skill issue? I've main tanked and was a BA lead after just a few clears. It isn't hard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur
-
08-10-2023, 08:31 AMTheNightIt means your preferences are so far away from the norm that you're indeed, unironically, special, so very special that the developers should probably not listen to you because most people don't share your very unique preferences.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur
Yes, what this means is that you're in an infinitesimally small minority. And your overtures of castigating other normal players as being in the minority just seems deliciously ironic in retrospect. -
08-10-2023, 08:33 AMWinterfangI mean, if at that point you generally have enough people to run BA without the Discord Group help, it's possible that you'll get punted into a new instance that was forced to be created. Sometimes I get into a Hydados alone or with a handful of a few additional people because it exploded with activity. Sometimes happens in Pagos too thanks to cassie.Quote:
Originally Posted by Supersnow845
-
08-10-2023, 08:33 AMAtelier-Bagur"Just ask the discord for your server, they will make space if you want to do a private-" Im not even gonna finish that statement that you just said...because are you actually kidding me? Do you not HEAR yourself how ridiculous that premise is? Imagine if all content is designed in such a restrictive way. And thank you SO MUCH for proving my point for why the BA groups enforce people to run the content is such a way...because its not well designed at all! Actually you know what, the design would be actually fine...if BA actually allowed you to form your own party and do the content yourself, at your own pace without messing up the instance for the rest of the players.Quote:
Originally Posted by Supersnow845
I ask you again, pleeeease tell why do you think the devs didnt repeat this level of restriction for CLL, Dalriada and Delibrum? Why do you think they made it more accessible? -
08-10-2023, 08:36 AMTheNightYou're not going to do those raids anyways so why do you care? Go back to doing MSQ on your fifth alt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur
-
08-10-2023, 08:37 AMSupersnow845Have you heard of delubrum savageQuote:
Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur
And yes this kind of content is peak MMO content, discuss and work with other people, that’s how MMO’s work -
08-10-2023, 08:37 AMAwesomeJr44Oh no. The content designed to emulate an MMO expects you to play as if you were playing an MMO. Whatever shall we do. It's such a catastrophe. We're all going to die. The sky is falling. It's the final days part two.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur
Don't tell them, it might break their brain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Supersnow845
https://media.tenor.com/ASGuOCPGrKEAAAAd/kekw-kek.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by TheNight
-
08-10-2023, 08:38 AMAtelier-BagurOk so Im not saying my points are gospel but again let me check what I said in OP:Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNight
1. Relics should have varied objectives and unique lore tied to each weapon
2. Exploratory zones should have more progression activities and options besides FATE farms
3. Allow crafters and gatherers to contribute to the zone
4. Bigger FATES that give you zone specific progression loot (whatever it may be) and be akin to World Quests like WoW rather than small skimishes and bosses
5. Evolve exploratory zones to be more than what it is rather that play it safe and pad out the content with minimal activities for the sake of a long grind
Alright soo...why are all of these points bad for that content again? Can you please debate me why these are bad? -
08-10-2023, 08:38 AMTheNightThe biggest joke is that he would have ever even heard of the concept of high level content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Supersnow845
-
08-10-2023, 08:39 AMTheNightI think it's quite a waste of time to debate someone who spent thousands of hours just doing the MSQ again and again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur