Do we really need the Scions again?

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Yes, they will probably never truly kill off the major Scions at this point, but I'm fine with them just carrying on as the main cast through every expansion while the more interesting plot things either happen to other people or build the Scions up as more complex people. They don't have to die to achieve that.

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I feel like they're not really interesting at this point theirs no real room to have "development" like what else can you do with the characters at this point? Despite some small parts in ew, it was clear that the characters have grown but don't show a lot of room to grow as the main cast.

I rather they stay semi important characters that pop up a few times in the story instead of the main people we follow for the 3rd time? 4th time for the twins. It's just got to the point where fresh new faces new stakes, knowing that what you're doing comes with risks, HW was good for the reason you felt like people didn't just have plot armor it kind of ruins the characters if they all have plot Armor and theirs no stakes or fear of loss.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

I feel like they're not really interesting at this point theirs no real room to have "development" like what else can you do with the characters at this point? Despite some small parts in ew, it was clear that the characters have grown but don't show a lot of room to grow as the main cast.

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You can just enjoy their company?

Seriously, that's what it feels like, as someone who likes the characters. (My default setting is "I will like them until they do something that makes me actively dislike them".)

They're old friends at this point. They can just be there and do stuff and be friendly to our character, and I enjoy their banter.

...Within the story of course. I'm not deluded into thinking of them as real friends.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

You can just enjoy their company?

Seriously, that's what it feels like, as someone who likes the characters. (My default setting is "I will like them until they do something that makes me actively dislike them".)

They're old friends at this point. They can just be there and do stuff and be friendly to our character, and I enjoy their banter.

...Within the story of course. I'm not deluded into thinking of them as real friends.

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It would be fine if they were mostly in the background doing their own thing and be occasionally relevant from time to time.
But they take a very large amount of focus because of they're the default characters to talk in place of the WoL.
It leaves too little place for new stories focused on different kind of characters. There are some distractions but in the end all Scions stories are always about how an homogenuous group of scholars are going to interfere in local politics. Or save the world.

Heavensward straight up could not have happened if the entire Scion group was there. The focus on Alphinaud, Estinien and Ysayle is essential to that story.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

You can just enjoy their company?

Seriously, that's what it feels like, as someone who likes the characters. (My default setting is "I will like them until they do something that makes me actively dislike them".)

They're old friends at this point. They can just be there and do stuff and be friendly to our character, and I enjoy their banter.

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I mean, they're basically our answer to the Straw Hat Pirates at this point. Questioning why Usopp is still around after the Going Merry sank is kind of missing the point.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

I mean, they're basically our answer to the Straw Hat Pirates at this point. Questioning why Usopp is still around after the Going Merry sank is kind of missing the point.

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Usopp already got a taste of what happens if he leaves anyways (he ass got beat )

He’s all in on the sunken cost

Plus elbaf is on the horizon sooner or later

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Originally Posted by Fenral

I mean, they're basically our answer to the Straw Hat Pirates at this point. Questioning why Usopp is still around after the Going Merry sank is kind of missing the point.

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If the Straw Hat Pirates all shared the same background and general motivations. The comparison with One Piece only highlights how poor of a main cast the Scions are.

And even then, despite the much more diverse main cast, Oda constantly splits them in smaller groups (sometimes for years IRL) to focus the story on other characters and had a long saga where none of them except the main character were present.

And when it started getting a bit stale he had a two years timeskip to reboot their dynamics and make them feel a bit more fresh. Another thing I wish FFXIV did (especially since they're openly inspired by anime so the One Piece comparison certainly didn't escape them)

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

If the Straw Hat Pirates all shared the same background and general motivations. The comparison with One Piece only highlights how poor of a main cast the Scions are.

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You mean, besides being almost entirely from East Blue? And it's not like the Scions don't get split into smaller groups during any given expansion, or leave us on our own for stretches to hang with new characters. It's a better comparison than you think, the only difference is we're not getting it in 19-page weekly installments over the course of 25+ years, but in big chunks of one arc at a time.

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

And when it started getting a bit stale he had a two years timeskip to reboot their dynamics and make them feel a bit more fresh. Another thing I wish FFXIV did (especially since they're openly inspired by anime so the One Piece comparison certainly didn't escape them)

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Time moved a bit differently for us than for them, but Shadowbringers already served a similar purpose to One Piece's timeskip, splitting everyone up and having them join, one at a time, with significant changes to kit and overall outlook on life thanks to the years they had spent on the First (which varied by character). The Thancred we have now is very different from the one we had in Heavensward and Stormblood.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

You mean, besides being almost entirely from East Blue?

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Wow they come from the same quarter of the globe, same background.
Even before the story moved to the Grand Line, nobody could argue Luffy, Nami, Zoro, Sanji and Usopp weren't vastly different characters with vastly different dreams, chara designs and backgrounds. While they're a close crew and have strong chemistry with each other, they have completely different opinions on all subjects (which is often the basis of the jokes and their slice of life moments) and realistic conflicts many times. You could write a conversation between all members of the crew while hiding their names and it would be still clear who said what. Try to do the same exercice with the Scions.
Not only that but none of the Scions had a character arc nearly as strong as what Nami or Robin got, yet in XIV it feels like we're already going in circles.

At the end of the day it isn't the Scions that a lot of players invested in when they developed interest in the setting. It's why the insistence that the story doesn't need a Scion to die or retire rings so hollow to me. The game world is so much more than the increasingly stale Scions.

It's an MMO at the end of the day. Players from many different backgrounds, belief systems, cultures and personality types invest in the game. It's well past time that the core cast reflected that. It seems that whenever the story actually does entertain different points of view, fans of the Scions immediately push for a return to the status quo.

I think it's time for the game to be bolder and offer more variety in terms of what characters are bringing to the table.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

You can just enjoy their company?

Seriously, that's what it feels like, as someone who likes the characters. (My default setting is "I will like them until they do something that makes me actively dislike them".)

They're old friends at this point. They can just be there and do stuff and be friendly to our character, and I enjoy their banter.

...Within the story of course. I'm not deluded into thinking of them as real friends.

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How can anyone enjoy their company when their default tendency is to lecture you and explain things you know for the hundredth time, while fanboying over you and telling you how much you rock like a clingy ex.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

There's nothing stopping them from introducing new characters alongside the familiar cast. Zero has become a main character and Vrtra a major supporting character throughout the 6.x patches while certain Scions are still involved. But yes, whether you or I personally like it or not, we "really do" need the Scions again. They're tremendously popular among the playerbase at large and our main "party" for this FF adventure. They're not going anywhere.

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I don't know if I would call Zero a main cast member yet. She's been with us for a handful of patches and seems very much like a special guest for this whole 13th shard story we're doing at the moment, which I assume will be concluded in 6.5 since every one of the scions that is involved with it will be leaving for the new world in 7.0.

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Originally Posted by AlucaDragonheart

I understand that people love these characters, but do we really need all of them back again? Their character arcs were concluded pretty well in Endwalker, in my opinion.

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Y'shtola has never had a character arc and is in dire need of one.

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Originally Posted by Duskane

Are the Scion really done though?
like sure they have had multiple moments of character development but have they finished or found there purpose that gives them a reason to leave?
Yshtola clearly wants to go back to the first thats her goal but rest of the scions don't really have a Goal they are working towards that warrants them to leave at some point.

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The twins are supposed to be helping with the reconstruction of Garlemald, which I guess they either just abandon or it will be quickly explained that they somehow managed to get them functioning as a self sufficient nation with a stable government and we just shouldn't care how that happened. I really am not sure what Urianger or Thancred would be pursuing since they have no character development independent of us. Really though they haven't given these characters any goals outside of what the plot demanded of them at the time, so they have nothing to do other than whatever we are doing.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

Y'shtola has never had a character arc and is in dire need of one.

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IDK about you, but I remember a character arc she went along in SHB

https://i.gyazo.com/97367eaa10b79db0...e7371eadae.png

maybe more of a 'character parabola' than an arc, I'm not sure

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

I don't know if I would call Zero a main cast member yet. She's been with us for a handful of patches and seems very much like a special guest for this whole 13th shard story we're doing at the moment, which I assume will be concluded in 6.5 since every one of the scions that is involved with it will be leaving for the new world in 7.0.

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Main character is relative. She is certainly a main character during this story arc.

As I've said elsewhere, I don't expect her to continue in MSQ but she may have a future in a sidequest arc, which has happened previously for characters like Hilda who left the MSQ but popped up in the MCH job quests.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

The twins are supposed to be helping with the reconstruction of Garlemald, which I guess they either just abandon or it will be quickly explained that they somehow managed to get them functioning as a self sufficient nation with a stable government and we just shouldn't care how that happened. I really am not sure what Urianger or Thancred would be pursuing since they have no character development independent of us. Really though they haven't given these characters any goals outside of what the plot demanded of them at the time, so they have nothing to do other than whatever we are doing.

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The twins are helping with Garlemald, yes. They're not the sole driving force behind the entire effort and it won't collapse without their personal presence – I would find that far more unrealistic. They've been there for months now, presumably working hard, and diplomatic connections have been made for trade with the Hannish. We may be getting updates on their progress for some time yet.

And Thancred and Urianger are off "wandering the realm" and doing stuff independent of us (and being amusingly sarcastic buddies), which is how they've likely ended up independently recruited to Tural.

I expect many of the older Scions will retire but still be available if needed. Once we get access to the First, many will take a break. That will leave more room for us and not paint the devs into a corner should they need them in the future.

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

Well I only see complaints about them here. And this place is a very small amount of the playerbase. Also you can read yes? Just a heads up saying most players does not equal the entire playerbase.

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Well I see complaints about them everywhere. And simps like you are a very small amount of the playerbase.

Shadowbringers writing made them more likeable and upgraded them from the boring plot NPCs to Waifu/Husbando tier.

I think it's pretty unlikely that any of them go away for a significant amount of time.

I was kinda hoping most of them would have taken a backseat for a while and have at most like 3 of them with us. Hopefully they will not get too much screen time so they can develope a new expansive cast of characters.

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Originally Posted by Koros

Well I see complaints about them everywhere.

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Likewise. I'm active on Twitter as well as the official forums and I've seen very mixed reactions to the Scions over the years on a rather consistent basis.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

There's nothing stopping them from introducing new characters alongside the familiar cast. Zero has become a main character and Vrtra a major supporting character throughout the 6.x patches while certain Scions are still involved. But yes, whether you or I personally like it or not, we "really do" need the Scions again. They're tremendously popular among the playerbase at large and our main "party" for this FF adventure. They're not going anywhere.

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The problem with that is it's hard to introduce new characters when the main cast is already full of 8 people. Everytime a new character was introduced, it was with a smaller team. Even when Ryne was introduced, the first thing the story did was find a way to push the twins away for one zone, while Y'shtola was not in the equation yet, so the new character would not be drown under existing characters. Same for Zero. It's hard to imagine them introduce more than one (maybe two) main characters, and they will be in competition with the old ones.

I'm also part of the people that thought the 6.0 last scene was a declaration of intention for the characters, but it wasn't. I was slightly disappointed when I saw that half of the trailer was basically there just to say "Yeah, they all will be there". My biggest issue is that except for Estinien, all the scions have the same background : scholar from Sharlayan. It made sense with ShB and EW, but I wish we'd go back to more diverse cast, like in ARR (with Cid, Biggs and Wedge being important) HW (with Ysayle and Estinien) or SB (with Hien, Gosetsu, Yugiri, or even Lyse). I like (most of) the scion, but a little variety after 2 extensions would be nice. Keep some, add new characters, and then in the next expansion, take other, and leave the one you had in the previous one.

Now, I still have interest in the next extension, but I feel they just missed the perfect opportunity to introduce new cast member. I have difficulties to feel the adventure and going to the discovery of a not well known continent with 5 scholars of the world most advanced and knowledgeable country in my backpack.

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Originally Posted by Koros

And simps like you are a very small amount of the playerbase.

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Originally Posted by VentVanitas

forum challenge: take a shot every time someone vaguely mentions a silent majority (bonus shot if they change the number every time) or minority in their post

you will not survive.

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Regardless of whether or not I agree with you, I made a pledge to take a shot when this happens. This is an equal opportunity drinking game.

https://djq2q4f22hoou.cloudfront.net...oads/shots.gif

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Originally Posted by CNitsah

The problem with that is it's hard to introduce new characters when the main cast is already full of 8 people. Everytime a new character was introduced, it was with a smaller team.

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That seems to be the plan here, though. Split the Scions into multiple groups, so we're only travelling with a few of them and some new or relatively low-on-screentime allies and whoever we are working with on arrival. Then the others might be popping in and out of the story as "rivals" but not constantly present or taking up time in cutscenes.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Likewise. I'm active on Twitter as well as the official forums and I've seen very mixed reactions to the Scions over the years on a rather consistent basis.

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That explains so much. You do understand how Twitter is engineered to feed you a constant stream of only the things you engage with most, right? Confirmation bias is literally built into it as a feature. Considering your usual attitudes, Twitter's algorithm would naturally feed you a constant stream of negativity to reinforce your pre-exsiting biases, leading you to the conclusion that everyone agrees with you.

Reality check: Twitter is not and will never be an accurate sampling of the population.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

That explains so much. You do understand how Twitter is engineered to feed you a constant stream of only the things you engage with most, right? Confirmation bias is literally built into it as a feature. Considering your usual attitudes, Twitter's algorithm would naturally feed you a constant stream of negativity to reinforce your pre-exsiting biases, leading you to the conclusion that everyone agrees with you.

Reality check: Twitter is not and will never be an accurate sampling of the population.

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Except when it's feeding you uwu g'raha so cute he nom some taco ^_^ content, I'm sure.

Regardless, your poorly veiled strawman argument collapses given that he is just following certain content creators on there, ones who simply cover news on the game, rather than running with whatever the algorithm is showing him as recommended content to follow, and on those content creator's threads, debate about the Scions does occur there too. He never claimed Twitter is an accurate sampling of the population, but then what is when it comes to XIV? Whatever confirms to you that the Scions are oh so popular and no one would ever want to see them go? Right.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

leading you to the conclusion that everyone agrees with you.

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I highly doubt he's trying to say that EVERYONE agrees with him.

Especially considering that the claim Koros and he were disputing was that this is the only place where Scion criticism comes up.

But saying "people on Twitter complain too" is like saying "water is wet." People on Twitter can find ways to complain about literally anything. It's practically a non-argument.

Continue coping.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

But saying "people on Twitter complain too" is like saying "water is wet." People on Twitter can find ways to complain about literally anything. It's practically a non-argument.

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so by that standard you can just pretend everything is fine any time people complain

"people on the forums complain so it's ok its a non argument"
"people in game complain so it's ok its a non argument"
"people on reddit complain so it's ok its a non argument"
"people on twitter complain so it's ok its a non argument"

so basically any sort of complaint is a non argument and should be ignored

what a take lmao

Anyways Scions. They're here to stay. Deal with it and move on.

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

Anyways Scions. They're here to stay. Deal with it and move on.

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I will deal with it by skipping the entire story every time and every damn cinematic I can, the story is an absolute bore and it's in majority because of them, it's like Hildibrand, it was fun for a while then it just got really old and boring

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I regularly interact with people who quite like the Scions, we just do something that many of this game's so called 'lore enthusiasts' fail to do - agree to disagree and compromise.

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"Agreeing to disagree" does not mean bringing the issue up every single goddamn patch and then going shocked-pikachu-face.gif when the people you've agreed to disagree with continue to disagree with you. It means dropping the issue because minds aren't going to change. The horse is dead, dude.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

But saying "people on Twitter complain too" is like saying "water is wet." People on Twitter can find ways to complain about literally anything. It's practically a non-argument.

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That's just an attempt to move the goalposts, is it not? My statement wasn't even a divisive one. I specifically stated that I have consistently witnessed mixed reactions to the Scions over the years that I've played this game. They've always been fairly divisive characters, particularly as the clingy and obsessive behaviour from the likes of G'raha has become increasingly prominent in cut scenes and dialogue.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

"Agreeing to disagree" does not mean bringing the issue up every single goddamn patch and then going shocked-pikachu-face.gif when the people you've agreed to disagree with continue to disagree with you. It means dropping the issue because minds aren't going to change. The horse is dead, dude.

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I'm not really sure what you're on about, to be quite honest. Nobody is obligated to like or dislike certain characters and I have never claimed otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Likewise. I'm active on Twitter as well as the official forums and I've seen very mixed reactions to the Scions over the years on a rather consistent basis.

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I would like to point out to Ikara and Fenral that Theodric said mixed reactions, not mostly negative. If the Twitter algorithm was trying to only feed him negative reactions to the scions, it's doing a poor job.

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Originally Posted by Stormpeaks

I will deal with it by skipping the entire story every time and every damn cinematic I can, the story is an absolute bore and it's in majority because of them, it's like Hildibrand, it was fun for a while then it just got really old and boring

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Cool beans. Don't care what you do. Just make sure you don't speak here about story beats that involve them as you won't have the knowledge necessary to comment on them going forward. Only fair.

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

I would like to point out to Ikara and Fenral that Theodric said mixed reactions, not mostly negative. If the Twitter algorithm was trying to only feed him negative reactions to the scions, it's doing a poor job.

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I mean I never once it was all or even mostly negative either. If he sees mixed then that's because thats the space he's in per the algorithm. I explained how that works already tbf. No clue why you're telling me this.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Main character is relative. She is certainly a main character during this story arc.

As I've said elsewhere, I don't expect her to continue in MSQ but she may have a future in a sidequest arc, which has happened previously for characters like Hilda who left the MSQ but popped up in the MCH job quests.




The twins are helping with Garlemald, yes. They're not the sole driving force behind the entire effort and it won't collapse without their personal presence – I would find that far more unrealistic. They've been there for months now, presumably working hard, and diplomatic connections have been made for trade with the Hannish. We may be getting updates on their progress for some time yet.

And Thancred and Urianger are off "wandering the realm" and doing stuff independent of us (and being amusingly sarcastic buddies), which is how they've likely ended up independently recruited to Tural.

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Since time passes in such an inconsistent way that I am not sure they have been there for months, I think this entire story arc is supposed to take 1 year from ARR to EW. And no the reconstruction of Garlemald will not halt without them, but for them to just up and leave whenever it suits them smacks of irresponsibility and lack of commitment, it would literally be them saying oh well we know you're still trying to rebuild but we want to do something else even though we've become heavily involved. It's also just another example of characters not having any real or lasting development of their own, just doing whatever the WoL and plot demands of them.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

It means dropping the issue because minds aren't going to change. The horse is dead, dude.

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So that's where this was going. He's trying to police what should and shouldn't be said on the official forums. Yikes.

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Originally Posted by Stormpeaks

so by that standard you can just pretend everything is fine any time people complain

"people on the forums complain so it's ok its a non argument"
"people in game complain so it's ok its a non argument"
"people on reddit complain so it's ok its a non argument"
"people on twitter complain so it's ok its a non argument"

so basically any sort of complaint is a non argument and should be ignored

what a take lmao

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

I would like to point out to Ikara and Fenral that Theodric said mixed reactions, not mostly negative. If the Twitter algorithm was trying to only feed him negative reactions to the scions, it's doing a poor job.

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It only counts when it's proof of how the Overwhelming/Vast/Great Majority wubs the game and won't accept any negative comment about it (I need not elaborate on what that sounds like...) Funnily enough, given the topic of algorithms 'curating' what content you see, Striker-GPT also brought up YouTube videos and even comments on them by trying to use them as "proof" of this great majority.

On the other hand, we could just be reasonable about it and realise that what it means is the OF is not the only place this issue comes up. It's less a statement about any majorities or 'everyone' or whatever some disingenuous people like to extrapolate it into.

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Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

So that's where this was going. He's trying to police what should and shouldn't be said on the official forums. Yikes.

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Papers please, you need a licence for that criticism...

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

Since time passes in such an inconsistent way that I am not sure they have been there for months, I think this entire story arc is supposed to take 1 year from ARR to EW.

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The thing with how FFXIV's "nebulous time" works is that there is time between events but it somehow doesn't move the calendar forward.

This means that ARR to Endwalker somehow fits within one year while requiring well more than a year to play out. The seasons never change, either.

For judging time between events, you just have to go on what people say within the individual quests. As I recall, it was implied that there was a fair gap between 6.0 and 6.1 when we called in on Tataru after being away for some time. All the Scions were off doing their own thing during that time, and then again for weeks or months between patches, which invariably end with "we're stuck waiting on this thing to happen, but it's going to take some time".