Can Square Enix stop killing off old content

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Originally Posted by BRVV

What i thought this topic was about: Old alliance raids that you can barely get a group for
What it actually is about: Content that can be solod and works completely fine

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Can you solo Eternal Bonding? :eek:

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Originally Posted by EderTheBro

What's the point of developing whole-ass systems if you're just going to abandon them and never build on it? Chocobo racing? Minion battles? Levequests? Expert recipes?

Maybe there wouldn't be a lack of content if we get iterations and innovations on existing content types instead of them trying to build a whole-ass new system every expac. Please realize that when people complain about those types of content, that doesn't mean they want it removed or for the developers to stop making such content forever. They want it improved upon. They want better iterations.

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I would assume they probably look at feedback and if something doesn't reach a certain threshold for popularity, they move on from that feature. I had a friend just a few weeks ago, every job 90, multi-year veteran...had never even unlocked the area of the golden saucer where vermillion and chocobo racing is. Didnt even know vermillion was a thing. For years.

I've seen a lot of people who think IS is gonna be something that's forever updated but I'm pretty sure 6.5 will be it's last update if any of the other expac's content is to go by...

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Originally Posted by keeper_of_moon

I've seen a lot of people who think IS is gonna be something that's forever updated but I'm pretty sure 6.5 will be it's last update if any of the other expac's content is to go by...

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I'd be curious to see the participation numbers compared to exploration zones. If SE looks at IS and sees a lot of people engaging with it, I could see them trying to make it a pseudo instanced housing. I'm sure they won't let it be a full housing system, the executives wouldn't want to risk the monthly rental subs, but I can see them giving us more than what is there now. I certainly hope they stick with it, I think it has potential, especially if they're willing to replacing mammets for say PEOPLE. Pretend we're giving jobs to displaced npcs or something, idc!

Sorry, turned into a bit of a IS rant.

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

I'd be curious to see the participation numbers compared to exploration zones. If SE looks at IS and sees a lot of people engaging with it, I could see them trying to make it a pseudo instanced housing. I'm sure they won't let it be a full housing system, the executives wouldn't want to risk the monthly rental subs, but I can see them giving us more than what is there now. I certainly hope they stick with it, I think it has potential, especially if they're willing to replacing mammets for say PEOPLE. Pretend we're giving jobs to displaced npcs or something, idc!

Sorry, turned into a bit of a IS rant.

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There isn't really any reason to add more housing options to IS. Everything can already be replicated within Apartments or FC rooms. IS provides the scope to use outdoor furniture, so now all bases are covered.
At most, they could potentially allow for house models to be used as landmarks, but even that seems a bit ambitious. There's dozens of house models and so far, only 8 landmarks.

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Originally Posted by Knot_D

Can you solo Eternal Bonding? :eek:

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I hear you can buy clears from Eastern Europe for those that dont like it solo

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

There isn't really any reason to add more housing options to IS. Everything can already be replicated within Apartments or FC rooms. IS provides the scope to use outdoor furniture, so now all bases are covered.
At most, they could potentially allow for house models to be used as landmarks, but even that seems a bit ambitious. There's dozens of house models and so far, only 8 landmarks.

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I totally disagree. Gardening, interior decorating with the ability to outside, chocobo stables, retainers, etc. I know, I know, FCs and 'real' housing need to have something special, but I have to wonder, if a feature has to be unique to something to make people like that something, in my mind, that something should be changed then. Just my opinion though. I hope SE keeps working on IS, I think it has a lot of potential.

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Originally Posted by Knot_D

Can you solo Eternal Bonding? :eek:

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Don't see that in the initial post

This was one of the weirdest things I had to grapple with when I started playing this game. Like..... there were so many systems I'd peek into early on, only to realize once I progressed a little more, that the devs just sort of forgot about them. It's weird to me. Hell, even looking at the less old stuff like... like look at bozja. Big open area full of interesting mini boss encounters and essences that change the gameplay up. But once you leave shadowbringers, it stops being relevant. You have no reason to be there unless you want a relic glam. We got that /deride emote in endwalker, but instead of putting it in zadnor, where the npc who inspired the emote happens to reside, they put it in the fucking cash shop. Instead of finding some way to work the 24man content from bozja into the broader game so all the money and effort spent developing it wouldn't be lost to time, they simply did nothing. It's so weird.

People brought up the gold saucer a little bit, and I think that's a huge missed opportunity too. It's been ages since a cute hairstyle was released from the gold saucer, and hell -- the minigames themselves are like, "who cares" tier. Imagine if they just pulled a card from PSO2's playbook and implemented real life card games into the gold saucer, with mgp as betting points or something. Let players play poker or BS or something. Mahjong is a good start, but build on that, give more games that more people might actually want to play, and then let us bet mgp on each round.

idk man, this game just feels like a room full of discarded old toys. it's like the devs get a shiny new thing and just forget the older stuff exists.

I'd love for them to expand on the companion system, you know, the chocobo you can summon to fight. Would like to see more for it, or being able to bring out a retainer instead.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

This is something that I wish SE would realize.

We have plenty of systems and if they could just expand or innovate on them slightly then they would generate more longevity without necessarily costing a lot of resources.

If they could expand on guildhests, it could literally act as a pretty good tutorial system, just as it did in low levels. Just a shame there is not any incentive behind it. Same with levequests. Same with Desynthesis, same with Grand Companies, the list of abandoned systems goes on and on and on. Why not expand the essences and logos systems to actually be present outside of exploratory content rather than having it stay an exclusive?

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You have to remember that a lot of those thing are either 1.0 holdouts, have been replaced by a better system, or both.

Battle leves were phased out because beast tribes and daily hunts filled the "daily exp activities" without also competing against crafting for resources. They didn't "forget" about leves, they intentionally replaced it with a more efficient system.

Guildhests are basically just combat mechanic tutorials. Sure they could keep adding more, but to what end? Unless they drastically up the exp/tomes, which they probably won't on account of them being to short and easy, why would anyone bother running them more than once?

Same with Grand Companies. IIRC, the last time the devs were asked about it in a Q&A the answer was something along the lines of "since GCs don't really do anything, there's no point in adding more ranks until we decide how to proceed with them in the future."

As for things like Eureka and Bozja, personally I'm okay with content having a shelf life. Not everything needs to stay relevant forever. I don't know about you, but I was already tired of Bozja long before ShB ended and was more than happy to let it go and move on to something new. It'll still be there if I ever feel like grinding out another relic.

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Originally Posted by Brightamethyst

You have to remember that a lot of those thing are either 1.0 holdouts, have been replaced by a better system, or both.

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Guildhests are themselves new to ARR+. Of those Kaurhz listed, only Leves and Grand Companies are "1.0 holdouts".

I don't see the fact that there are also crafting/gathering leves as being an excuse to remove battle leves entirely. I'm not miffed by their removal, as at worst it means more FATE-runners and dungeon-spammers, but the warrant doesn't really seem there. We're free, regardless, not to spend our leves on DoW/DoMs, and the costs to allow for those options are already quite minimal:

Set nodes, grab some mobs from the zone's table Choose which of the 4-6 generic objectives to use. Assign a preexisting mosaic. Give it a name. Done. Of course, for that same reason (they're basic af), again... not too sad to have lost them.

(Also, when are we getting crafter/gatherer FATEs and, say, Workshops [group crafter content, using a shared pool of resources, mildly coordinating orders to try to maximize speed and customer happiness, for instance? Just saying. I'd love to see a FATE chain that includes at least one part that actually coordinates, at minimum, Gatherers to be protected and sourced with consumables by crafters, etc., along its chain. Back in 1.x, crafters and gatherers felt more out there, integrated, of the field and frequently closer to the fights. I kind of miss that.)

i'd like to note that guildhests won't come back because it lacks randomness.

its the same reason reason why quests don't give much in the way of exp is because if you remember ARR or played any other MMO, you'll know that it's very easy to set a bot up to do those things automatically. in fact you'll still see bots doing it to this day... albeit much less than there used to be. by forcing the player to do dungeons and providing daily bonuses for doing a roulette, you make it so that botting in the long run is unsustainable and won't get you far enough to make the account or whatever you're farming worth to sell.

unless they manage to make guildhests more than just "kill these four things" they won't ever return.

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Originally Posted by Denji

i'd like to note that guildhests won't come back because it lacks randomness.

its the same reason reason why quests don't give much in the way of exp is because if you remember ARR or played any other MMO, you'll know that it's very easy to set a bot up to do those things automatically.

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Tbf, I don't think anyone was looking for them to be farmable content. They're tutorials. They just need to be stringent enough to function as such.

They'll probably remain one-and-done, but there's plenty more than can be taught through them, if we so wished.

That said... we easily could introduce randomness to the later ones, and actually have those be like slightly-randomized short-but-difficult puzzle-like fights. Personally, though, I feel like we might as well then give them a different name.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Tbf, I don't think anyone was looking for them to be farmable content. They're tutorials. They just need to be stringent enough to function as such.

They'll probably remain one-and-done, but there's plenty more than can be taught through them, if we so wished.

That said... we easily could introduce randomness to the later ones, and actually have those be like slightly-randomized short-but-difficult puzzle-like fights. Personally, though, I feel like we might as well then give them a different name.

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but they give excellent exp up to a certain point as well as actual items/equipment. they can be abused and exploited even with a trial account which is the point i was making.

you can see bots teleport it and then clip back underground in both quarrymill and costa del sol and then momentarily appear out of the ground to interact with things before moving on.

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Originally Posted by Denji

but they give excellent exp up to a certain point as well as actual items/equipment. they can be abused and exploited even with a trial account which is the point i was making.

you can see bots teleport it and then clip back underground in both quarrymill and costa del sol and then momentarily appear out of the ground to interact with things before moving on.

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Isn't that "certain point" just the first-time completion bonus? Admittedly, that's less a gate for rapidly recycled RMT bots than players, but it still limits them.

Also... Guildhests are only entered through the matchmaker. They don't exist in the open world.

Are you sure you aren't thinking of Guildleves? Guildleves are the barebone farmable content. Guildhests are the once-through "learn how to CC", "learn how to focus down this enemy", "learn how to move the boss to avoid facing a soft-enrage from ground effects" tutorials.

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Originally Posted by EderTheBro

What's the point of developing whole-ass systems if you're just going to abandon them and never build on it? Chocobo racing? Minion battles? Levequests? Expert recipes?

Maybe there wouldn't be a lack of content if we get iterations and innovations on existing content types instead of them trying to build a whole-ass new system every expac. Please realize that when people complain about those types of content, that doesn't mean they want it removed or for the developers to stop making such content forever. They want it improved upon. They want better iterations.

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Do you even play the game? They literally just added some new expert crafts in 6.4. They have been adding them in the past as well. Also they are adding new minions too.

A finished system is not an abandoned one.

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Originally Posted by Elissar

A finished system is not an abandoned one.

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A system is rarely 'finished' though; such can usually only be said of implementations.

For instance, Pandaemonium is now 'finished'; Raids, though, are not.



Only if a type of content existed only to serve a specifically transient purpose, such as learning the game, would it likely be 'finished'.

...And even then many components of those systems that content type carried would likely be worth repurposing.

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Originally Posted by Avoidy

People brought up the gold saucer a little bit, and I think that's a huge missed opportunity too. It's been ages since a cute hairstyle was released from the gold saucer, and hell -- the minigames themselves are like, "who cares" tier.

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Ignoring the systems that were entirely abandoned like Lords of Verminion or Chocobo racing, the minigames got basically power crept out of relevance.

Why would I do the wood cutting minigame for maybe a measly 600 MGP when I can just do an easy GATE for 4000 or weekly fashion report for 60000?

It's funny to see people defend FFXIV over WoW for having content that "never gets old" and is "always relevant", as opposed to WoW which makes you "play the patch".

Meanwhile, FFXIV has a dozen old systems that have been abandoned just like the ones in WoW. People have no sense of self-awareness whatsoever that we're becoming just like what we claim to hate. Island Sanctuary will be completely irrelevant when 7.0 comes out because Square Enix needs to bait people with new gimmicks to keep the subs rolling. You know, in lieu of actual gameplay worth people's time.

I think the only guildhests this game could still benefit from is hests that explain what certain markers do that appear in fights. We need stuff that explains what a "tower", "twister", "dive bomb", "flare marker" and many others are.

Honestly i would like if they added a few new chocobo race tracks, more guildheists (Remish's idea to use them as tutorials is great), maybe more Golden Saucer games (Poker and other card games maybe, how about billiard and darts, a fishing minigame, the games from the original FFVII) and more!

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Originally Posted by caffe_macchiato

It's funny to see people defend FFXIV over WoW for having content that "never gets old" and is "always relevant", as opposed to WoW which makes you "play the patch".

Meanwhile, FFXIV has a dozen old systems that have been abandoned just like the ones in WoW. People have no sense of self-awareness whatsoever that we're becoming just like what we claim to hate. Island Sanctuary will be completely irrelevant when 7.0 comes out because Square Enix needs to bait people with new gimmicks to keep the subs rolling. You know, in lieu of actual gameplay worth people's time.

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What I always see people pointing out in that comparison is the main story, not random side-content. The main story in WoW is an absolute mess for new players. In the pre-scaling times, you outleveled zones before you got anywhere close to finishing their stories, meaning you either kept going with them for practically no xp or just abandoned each storyline and went elsewhere. Now with the scaling, you can see entire stories through and still get solid xp, but you only get to see a select few pieces of the plot. And with the ability to go about them in almost any order, it can lead to utter confusion about what is going on. Not to mention entire major events like the Wrathgate, Battle for the Undercity, the whole last "zone" of the Timeless Isle, etc. are either outright removed from the game altogether or physically impossible to access for players who weren't already attuned by a certain patch.

Absolutely none of that is a problem in FFXIV. New players still have access to the entire MSQ in a sensible, sequential order with a roulette system that ensures dungeons and trials will always be popping. If I'm missing something, please let me know, but I can't think of a single piece of content in FFXIV that has actually been removed from the game or made literally inaccessible to newer players. Everything is still there for anyone coming into the game to still experience and enjoy.

That's the difference people talk about comparing FFXIV with WoW. You seem to be referring to particular types of side-content that either were never sufficiently popular or were only intended to be part of one expansion, but all of that content still exists for people to play, unlike in WoW, where it actually gets physically removed from the game entirely or made off-limits to newer players.

Anyone notice the OP has no medals.

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Originally Posted by caffe_macchiato

It's funny to see people defend FFXIV over WoW for having content that "never gets old" and is "always relevant", as opposed to WoW which makes you "play the patch".

Meanwhile, FFXIV has a dozen old systems that have been abandoned just like the ones in WoW. People have no sense of self-awareness whatsoever that we're becoming just like what we claim to hate. Island Sanctuary will be completely irrelevant when 7.0 comes out because Square Enix needs to bait people with new gimmicks to keep the subs rolling. You know, in lieu of actual gameplay worth people's time.

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Blizzard literally removed important lore quest chains like the Panda Legendary Cape and the Ring in Warlords of Draenor. There was no reason to remove either of those other than FOMO. Players that have them didn't want them removed, and players that missed out have been asking for their return for years. Blizzard doesn't care.

Heck, Blizzard literally killed the Forbidden Reach in the very next patch that came after it with the Caverns whom the playerbase hated so much that they just abandoned it after the first week. It's a dead zone, due to how poorly made and scaled it is.

Can you tell me of FF14 doing something like this? Where the very next patch killed their latest addition and then the playbase just abandons the new current patch zone because it's that bad?

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Originally Posted by Striker44

What I always see people pointing out in that comparison is the main story, not random side-content. The main story in WoW is an absolute mess for new players. In the pre-scaling times, you outleveled zones before you got anywhere close to finishing their stories, meaning you either kept going with them for practically no xp or just abandoned each storyline and went elsewhere. Now with the scaling, you can see entire stories through and still get solid xp, but you only get to see a select few pieces of the plot. And with the ability to go about them in almost any order, it can lead to utter confusion about what is going on. Not to mention entire major events like the Wrathgate, Battle for the Undercity, the whole last "zone" of the Timeless Isle, etc. are either outright removed from the game altogether or physically impossible to access for players who weren't already attuned by a certain patch.

Absolutely none of that is a problem in FFXIV. New players still have access to the entire MSQ in a sensible, sequential order with a roulette system that ensures dungeons and trials will always be popping. If I'm missing something, please let me know, but I can't think of a single piece of content in FFXIV that has actually been removed from the game or made literally inaccessible to newer players. Everything is still there for anyone coming into the game to still experience and enjoy.

That's the difference people talk about comparing FFXIV with WoW. You seem to be referring to particular types of side-content that either were never sufficiently popular or were only intended to be part of one expansion, but all of that content still exists for people to play, unlike in WoW, where it actually gets physically removed from the game entirely or made off-limits to newer players.

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Not to mention that new players are sent into BFA (a bad decision) and then at 60 are forced into Dragonflight which has a timeskip (of like 2-5 years since BFA) and all the war and stuff in BFA is long since resolved and irrelevant to Dragonflight.

Blizzard should have just made a new Exile's Reach and then send players (at least their first character) into the Dragon Isles which already has scaling on it based on your character level between 60-70, while Chromie Time already can scale things from 10-60. Just apply both to Dragonflight and have gear from the quest scale (like greens) as they level. At least the new players wouldn't be lost on the story (as Dragonflight is self-contained due to the timeskip) as much and will be where all the players are at. Having this scaling only apply to one character per account wouldn't be an issue. Bots wouldn't take advantage of it either as they would rather buy a Boost and then farm Legion/BFA/Legion and old Dungeons that their Bots can easily destroy at 60.

I still hate how Blizzard removed those Legendary questline/weapon quests because of FOMO. There was no reason to ever take them out.

I have the Panda Cape and the WoD Ring. I still believe that they shouldn't have been removed and players should be allowed to experience them.

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Originally Posted by EderTheBro

What's the point of developing whole-ass systems if you're just going to abandon them and never build on it? Chocobo racing? Minion battles? Levequests? Expert recipes?

Maybe there wouldn't be a lack of content if we get iterations and innovations on existing content types instead of them trying to build a whole-ass new system every expac. Please realize that when people complain about those types of content, that doesn't mean they want it removed or for the developers to stop making such content forever. They want it improved upon. They want better iterations.

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Can you stop complaining about everything under the sun? I didn't think so.

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

Can you tell me of FF14 doing something like this? Where the very next patch killed their latest addition and then the playbase just abandons the new current patch zone because it's that bad?

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Yes. It happens every patch since ARR. Literally every single piece of content thats not MSQ or current content is a ghost town and if you cant solo it then lol good luck.

lol

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Originally Posted by Reap00

Can you stop complaining about everything under the sun? I didn't think so.

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See, this response would make sense... if what was quoted was a frivelous, unfounded, and unshared complaint.

...It's not, though.



In all honesty, this is a situation where you would actually make more sense attacking the man (GaiustheEderRagingBrofist) than the argument. Because there's nothing wrong with that argument.

And since there's nothing to be said in that regard than hasn't been said before... /shrug

Right or wrong it is a bad look to see unfinished stuff inside this game.

Can you quit with the negativity? Square Enix does build and create a lot of content that doesn't get frequent updates but that is completely understandable when you consider the enormous drain on resources that it would require. Is it not enough that you were given unique content? Lack of updates does not mean the content is dead. It just means that you the player have cleared the content and it's time for you to move on to something new and fresh which there is a lot of in this game. If there's nothing left for you to enjoy then take a break and play a different game but don't blame Square Enix for not keeping you constantly entertained with new content releases as soon as you clear out the older content.

Not only is some of the older content completely abandoned, they have butchered lower level dungeons and trials with constant potency creep. People deal 2-3x the damage and take way less than they used to back when these places were relevant.

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Originally Posted by PetThisMiqo

If there's nothing left for you to enjoy then take a break and play a different game

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When Gaius at his most sarcastic is when he sounds the most reasonable lol

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

I'm curious, is there a large number of players that would participate regularly in chocobo racing if they iterated/updated them? How about minion battles? Some stuff makes sense, levequests being updated/improved would be amazing, and the old exploration zones could a 2nd look with how most of the playerbase has moved on from it, but I think it's okay for some content to remain static as it is and just be there for the few people that want to engage with that content.

Besides, it seems like most players are interested only in moving forward with new content and aren't willing to sacrifice the speed at which they receive new content if it means looking at older content.

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It wouldn't be bad if they actually tried to future proof it. The problem with most of the aftermentioned content is that you require interest from other players to be able to engage with it. I started playing this game 4 months ago and it's sad I might never be able to finish the stories of Eureka and Bozja because I committed the crime of joining in "too late", same with pre EW Extreme and Savage content. And no, just using PF isn't a solution, you have to sit for hours waiting for people who may abandon before more join, while you're unable to do solo progress because you're in a party.

This is the same issue that made me leave Gw2. Arenanet (the devs) have a tendency to introduce new systems every expansion that usually require the involvement of many players, only to abandon them and make it impossible for newer players to complete. People often told me XIV was the mmo where even old content was still relevant but it's no different.

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Originally Posted by Aldath

This is the same issue that made me leave Gw2. Arenanet (the devs) have a tendency to introduce new systems every expansion that usually require the involvement of many players, only to abandon them and make it impossible for newer players to complete. People often told me XIV was the mmo where even old content was still relevant but it's no different.

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I hate to break it to you, but we the players are completely to blame. as a group players demand new things to make it interesting. we demand new jobs, and like it or not, the developers add them in. this will always seal the fate of old content as they are not going to rewrite the entire 10 years of the game to keep it all relevant.

any game, I dont care which one you name, but any game that has been around for any period of time... if you arrive "too late" as you say, the player base has moved on to the new content. thats just a fact of life in mmos. just be happy they have not gone the Destiny 2 route and simply removed a ton of previous content completely. that game has lost any relevance to a story. as a new person, there is nothing at all to get emotionally invested in like the old players.

While I agree some systems are underutilized, I disagree any of the content is really dead. Take Eureka and Bozja for example since it's been brought up a few times and declared "dead content", but both of them have dedicated fans with Discord groups that organize regular runs of BA/CLL/DR and fate farming. You don't even need to join a Discord to find people doing the content pretty much daily. Just the other day I tried getting my only missing Field Note from Bozja and the instance was full of people farming clusters, running CEs and CLL. Just because nothing new has been added to them does not make it abandoned or dead - they have served their purpose (respective expansion's relic grind and storyline) and they remain perfectly accessible to both old and new players in a finished, maintained state. How would you even go about expanding either of them?

Also let's be real here, when was the last time any of us booted up XIV all "Oh boy, I can't wait to do some battle levequests and Verminion"? Some content just isn't worth expanding upon, as sad as that may be, but at least it exists and is kept in a working state for those who care and wish to engage. Instead of tinkering on a system with, like, ~50 fans out of 42 million players, focus the time and resources on new content, like they're doing now.

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Originally Posted by PetThisMiqo

Can you quit with the negativity?

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It will stop probably around the same time you stop using your various accounts to necro old threads.

It's somewhat ironic that you're complaining about negativity when that's what you chose to necro.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

It will stop probably around the same time you stop using your various accounts to necro old threads.

It's somewhat ironic that you're complaining about negativity when that's what you chose to necro.

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I agree they don't want negativity but necro negative threads from months ago and reply to them.

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Originally Posted by Nebelheim

I agree they don't want negativity but necro negative threads from months ago and reply to them.

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its to reignite drama, thats all

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

its to reignite drama, thats all

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It does seem there "positivity" they keep trying to spread is from the drama filled threads there necroing or trying to reignite the drama.