Why balance jobs to just high-end raids?

They can make all the changes they want to high-end raid and I still won't go raiding.

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Originally Posted by HyonaCookie

I wouldn't say casual content requires a lot of effort, but if you look between jobs in a role you can see the skill floor for jobs varies more. For instance it takes less effort to do dungeons as WAR than as a DRK, the difference being for one tank you only need to press one button to succeed while the other requires you to press many at a time. The same can be said for WHM versus other healers. I just think that the skill difference between jobs when doing casual content shouldn't be so different, unlike high end content where it doesn't matter because people will find a way around it.

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Scholar is the easiest healer, white mage is just annoying. AST is probably the hardest one but that’s because it requires the ability to split concentration between cards, healing and targeting the correct teammate/enemy with heals/aoe. They aren’t really hard in absolute terms though unless your teammates are collecting damage deliberately. All tanks play exactly the same in dungeons: you go in, gather mobs, mitigate, take a bit of damage and watch the healer panic and completely waste your self-healing ability.

To answer the title of the thread, because below extremes the difficulty is entirely theoretical. When was the last time you wiped on a dungeon or even normal trial?

For a different reason would be interesting if they separated balance, give high end content highly technical gameplay that is also tightly balanced (may loose some individuality, not intentionally though). Then run hog wild with theme and job identity in the easy content where it doesn't really matter as much if the balance is a little messy, particularly as the content is also directed by automated systems rather than player lead where the real issues would arise.

Funny homogenization is sometimes blames on casual as I think its the hardcore audience that ultimately caused SE to run that way (watching from long ago, imo, it's pretty clear the trend started /because of/ the issues in high end content). Although on the other hand, certainly I think the easy to play jobs was the casual audience but those are two distinctly separate issues.

Hence.. give balanced but high skill ceiling builds for high end, give high personality but potentially easier jobs for story. Use the rolling mountain just the same, where echo now is basically unlocking high flavor kits.

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Originally Posted by HyonaCookie

I don’t see the point in balancing jobs to high end raids. Even if you balance jobs so they’re all playable in high end content, raiders will still meta chase and use mods and tools to make their experience easier. Meanwhile, because jobs aren’t balanced to casual content, some jobs take more effort than others to clear content because of the huge discrepancy in how much skill is needed to play a job, which doesn’t exist in 8-man content because that’s where jobs are balanced. In 4-person content such as dungeons, the effort discrepancy between the job that requires the least effort to play and the job that requires the most effort to play is big to the point where it’s not worth playing certain jobs in 4-man content. But in 8-man hard content, even the job that requires the most amount of effort is not that different compared to the job that requires little effort.
I don’t get why casual players need to put more effort in playing the job they like in content they want to play while high end players get to put the same amount of effort into each job to do the same thing. I think jobs should be more balanced towards casual content because so the amount of skill and effort required to clear is not so wide between jobs while it doesn’t matter if the skill gap is wide for high end content because raiders often just end up gravitating towards the easier job anyways.

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If your not doing EX/Savage/Ultimate, just hit your 1-2-3 combo and your good, the content doesn't require much more skill than that.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

If the "skill" necessary for Warrior in an AoE pull is 1/10 then it's 2/10 for the other tanks. At which point who even cares? They're all incredibly easy and overpowered because we're ridiculously higher level than the mobs.

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I don't agree with this assessment. If it was true, then why do people when asked for advice on playing DRK in dungeons say "just play WAR" instead? Why do people act like it's impossible to tank in dungeons as a DRK without having the healer/dps carry you?

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Originally Posted by fulminating

Scholar is the easiest healer, white mage is just annoying.

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Maybe if you're used to playing SCH, but not everyone plays 100% without skill issue like you.

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Originally Posted by HyonaCookie

I don't agree with this assessment. If it was true, then why do people when asked for advice on playing DRK in dungeons say "just play WAR" instead? Why do people act like it's impossible to tank in dungeons as a DRK without having the healer/dps carry you?

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If you're only listening to dumb people you're going to hear incorrect statements.

> Lalafell is angry, that some jobs are harder than others for casual "I dont know what to press next" play
> Lalafell is angry 3 post later, that jobs are homogenized

Like... Bruh.

Also, your mentions of hi-end players playing only meta and always using tools only makes you look dumb. Just admit to yourself you are playing bad and not accusse others for it. In the time of writing this thread, you could already practice and get better.

Because its the easiest, least ammount of effort they can do to pretend this game is balanced in anyway.

There even is harder content where the jobs aren't even close to balanced, its just no one cares.

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Originally Posted by HyonaCookie

I don't agree with this assessment. If it was true, then why do people when asked for advice on playing DRK in dungeons say "just play WAR" instead? Why do people act like it's impossible to tank in dungeons as a DRK without having the healer/dps carry you?

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That feels like a very memey answer from a warrior main like myself, DRK is fine though it isn't as easy as WAR but you can do stupid amounts of damage with DRK. In reality, all tanks are easy in dungeons if you just push your dam buttons. The only issue with DRK is getting a bad healer lmao.

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Originally Posted by SaltyDaddy

> Lalafell is angry, that some jobs are harder than others for casual "I dont know what to press next" play
> Lalafell is angry 3 post later, that jobs are homogenized

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I'm not sure where you got that I was angry jobs were homogenized. I just don't think homogenization should be catered to high end raiders.

And I'll admit to overexaggerating about high end raiders, but I don't see how that makes me bad at the game. I do practice my rotation and try to align my damage to buffs in normal content. I even do all my dungeon roulettes as DRK and rarely have issues. I don't see how not doing savage and ultimates makes me a bad player.

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Originally Posted by HyonaCookie

I don't agree with this assessment. If it was true, then why do people when asked for advice on playing DRK in dungeons say "just play WAR" instead? Why do people act like it's impossible to tank in dungeons as a DRK without having the healer/dps carry you?

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You also get people defending Cure I in 90 content, tanks that don't CD at all because "it's the healer's job to heal" and DPS who haven't discovered what AoE buttons do.

Some people are dumb. You ignore them. Anyone saying it's impossible or even remotely difficult to play Dark Knight in any content, much less dungeons, has never played any of the tanks before, including Warrior. Either that or they're lazy and want to AFK watching Netflix instead of occasionally looking at their screen to maybe toss an oGCD on a Dark Knight or Gunbreaker. That's why they want a Warrior.

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Originally Posted by HyonaCookie

In 4-person content such as dungeons, the effort discrepancy between the job that requires the least effort to play and the job that requires the most effort to play is big to the point where it’s not worth playing certain jobs in 4-man content. But in 8-man hard content, even the job that requires the most amount of effort is not that different compared to the job that requires little effort.


I don’t get why casual players need to put more effort in playing the job …. [snip]

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I am curious about your statements above.

What jobs I find difficult to play can be easy for another to grasp. And as a ‘casual’ I put in as much effort as I can no matter the content.

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Originally Posted by Mosha

That feels like a very memey answer from a warrior main like myself, DRK is fine though it isn't as easy as WAR but you can do stupid amounts of damage with DRK. In reality, all tanks are easy in dungeons if you just push your dam buttons. The only issue with DRK is getting a bad healer lmao.

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If a healer struggles with healing a drk that is pushing even just some of their buttons they need their pulse checked. Trust healers can keep you alive and being better than them is an insanely low bar to clear.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

If a healer struggles with healing a drk that is pushing even just some of their buttons they need their pulse checked. Trust healers can keep you alive and being better than them is an insanely low bar to clear.

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oh I've run into a few specimens in my time, remember there are people who freecure fish at 90.................

Because savage and ultimate is the only place where balance actually matters for the job? None of the jobs are that hard anymore, you can't be serious saying casuals need to try harder. Just 123 and you're fine. You unironically say it is not worth bringing certain jobs in 4 man content?? Sorry if you are going to gatekeep a job in 4 man you are sweatier than most raiders I know.

The game already has been catered to casuals in a huge way, jobs were simplified right down and many had what made them unique removed. Homogenised jobs made things EASIER for casuals since you don't need to think at all to make buffs align etc as it's already baked in. You must be trolling. What a joke post.

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Originally Posted by Mosha

oh I've run into a few specimens in my time, remember there are people who freecure fish at 90.................

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Oh dear, the nightmare...

But ironically, even these freecure fishers sometimes had just enough amount of healing power to get my sorry a$$ playing as a DRK in some of the more rough dungeon pulls! Well timed Abyssal Drain and liberal use of TBN on top of regular cooldown rotating like any other tanks do still allowed me to live through... somehow, despite it being my weakest performed role.

Just shows how low the bar is to get a pass.

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Originally Posted by HyonaCookie

I don’t see the point in balancing jobs to high end raids.

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We raiders have to care about stupid numbers to complete content

You guys don't

Just ignore it. I don't care if they nerf my favorite class into the ground as long as it plays the same. I don't use addons to track my dps. I would have no idea otherwise.

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Originally Posted by HyonaCookie

I'm not sure where you got that I was angry jobs were homogenized. I just don't think homogenization should be catered to high end raiders.

And I'll admit to overexaggerating about high end raiders, but I don't see how that makes me bad at the game. I do practice my rotation and try to align my damage to buffs in normal content. I even do all my dungeon roulettes as DRK and rarely have issues. I don't see how not doing savage and ultimates makes me a bad player.

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If you do your rotation properly, why do you even care then. DRK is in the best spot he was ever been, for the whole expansion. Jobs plays the same, if its ultimate or normal raid. Every balancing is the same (if we dont take old content into account). So why should we balance the game around Jeff who doesnt know what he is doing, instead of content, where people need to do numbers to actually clear it.

Also, raiders really dont want homogenization.

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Originally Posted by Ardeth

Just ignore it. I don't care if they nerf my favorite class into the ground as long as it plays the same. I don't use addons to track my dps. I would have no idea otherwise.

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They never in history nerfed some jobs. Only buffed

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Originally Posted by SaltyDaddy

They never in history nerfed some jobs. Only buffed

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Shadowbringers summoner twice. And again going into endwalker relative to the others.

I’d also argue that dark knight is the worst it has ever been while also being the strongest. I just don’t find 20 seconds of frantic button mashing every two minutes enjoyable.

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Originally Posted by SaltyDaddy

They never in history nerfed some jobs. Only buffed

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Holy has been nerfed several times.

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Originally Posted by HyonaCookie

Maybe if you're used to playing SCH, but not everyone plays 100% without skill issue like you.

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I'm pretty confident I could clear an 'expert' dungeon safely with a fairy summoned and only Physic on my hotbars. I recently did a Lapis dungeon solo queue on WHM with no oGCD heals (Outside of Assize on CD for damage at least), no Tetra, no bene, no benison or aquaveil etcetc. I still parsed high purple. 94% to be exact. If that doesn't demonstrate how irrelevant job balance is in casual content, I'm not sure what does =/

Balance doesn't matter in anything below Savage because as long as you can move out of the bad, you'll likely beat the content eventually.

It's not a skill thing, it's a pressing buttons thing.

Thought they were going to solve it at this expansion but given the tanks changes... Definitely not lol. Key part of the issue is gear creep, skill, and tanks increasing survivability. The better players play, dodge, especially tank use their resources, the less important healers are. The better geared players are the less important healers are, due to not only more powerful heals but also higher defense on everyone. The older content is the less important healers are, due to echo.

How gear works is one solution, at the time suggested horizontal-lite to introduce cost reward to skill and reduce defense creep (and epic echo to keep solo ability).

Another, easier method imo, was to bring back things like old scholar. Make some healers DD healers and others buffing healers, the buffs strictly potency balanced to essentially be a different flavor of DD healing. While doing this, like old scholar, adding actions that are not strictly heals. Keep heals of course but there would be less. A player who wants to feel more supportive would pick a buff healer and a healer who wants to engage the boss more would be like sage or scholar.

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Originally Posted by Tehmon

Because that's the only place where balance matters.

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This. Every single piece of content lower than Savage is trivial.

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Originally Posted by fulminating

Shadowbringers summoner twice. And again going into endwalker relative to the others.

I’d also argue that dark knight is the worst it has ever been while also being the strongest. I just don’t find 20 seconds of frantic button mashing every two minutes enjoyable.

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Nobody in the raid commuinity likes 2min meta either. Its not fun, its VERY punishing. It literally solved nothing. So yes, you are right.

The smn... I remember they increased the ifrit cast. What else happened in ShB?

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Holy has been nerfed several times.

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1) Its holy. Nobody cares about that
2) It actually got a buffed by a big ammount. What nerf you talking about.

Well considering how many times they keep nerfing/buffing they never seem to get it right. I think they literally throw darts at a spinning wheel and whichever it lands on is what they will do. You can definitely tell lately they can never get it 100%.

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Originally Posted by SaltyDaddy

Nobody in the raid commuinity likes 2min meta either. Its not fun, its VERY punishing. It literally solved nothing. So yes, you are right.

The smn... I remember they increased the ifrit cast. What else happened in ShB?

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Patch 5.2: Summoner
Action Adjustment
Bio III Damage over time potency has been reduced from 50 to 45.
Miasma III Potency has been reduced from 50 to 45.
Damage over time potency has been reduced from 50 to 45.

Patch 5.3 Summoner
Action Adjustment
Tri-disaster Potency has been reduced from 300 to 150.

At the end of shadowbringers they were still really rather good at dealing damage. Endwalker summoner is underwhelming by comparison - and for good reason given how barebones it is.

If they dropped hard enrages on raids (and randomized the mechanics more), they could think outside the box with job design. But no one will play a job that doesn't fit the 2-minute burst window meta. Why do we care about the burst window? It allows players to clear content with less gear upgrades and making more mistakes along the way.

Change raids to add stacking damage-up on the boss for times when players fail a mechanic (so you still have to do the mechanics right). Make mechanics less scripted. Instead of this:

Mechanic 1 > Mechanic 2 > 3 or 4 > 5 > 6 > unused of 3 or 4> 7 > etc

Make bosses just pull from a pool of mechanics;

2 > 5 > 3 > 2 > 7 > 4 > 1 > 1 etc etc

The changing of mechanics isn't necessary, just an idea. If we are going to lower DPS checks, then the difficulty should be added somewhere else.

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Originally Posted by SaltyDaddy

1) Its holy. Nobody cares about that
2) It actually got a buffed by a big ammount. What nerf you talking about.

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Oh I see, Square Enix "never nerfs things" because when it's a class you don't care about it doesn't count. Holy's potency has been reduced multiple times, what are you talking about? It's in the version history. Holy started as a flat 240 potency, no falloff. It's now 140, no falloff. That's a significant nerf over time.

I miss when Astrologian was a bit harder to use due to switching to either shields or healers and how all the cards function differently I don't miss TP <- that can stay dead and forgotten for all I care.

This is all assuming core content is structured properly to compliment the balance. And it’s not. Nothing takes effort and trials I can afk in any role and still clear it with zero cooperation from others

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Oh I see, Square Enix "never nerfs things" because when it's a class you don't care about it doesn't count. Holy's potency has been reduced multiple times, what are you talking about? It's in the version history. Holy started as a flat 240 potency, no falloff. It's now 140, no falloff. That's a significant nerf over time.

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It had a falloff. But for some thought, I thought it was 50% less for other enemies,, but it was 10% less for earch enemy till 50%. Then yeah, Holy was nerfed, true. My bad. Im sorry fot that.

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Originally Posted by SaltyDaddy

It had a falloff. But for some thought, I thought it was 50% less for other enemies,, but it was 10% less for earch enemy till 50%. Then yeah, Holy was nerfed, true. My bad. Im sorry fot that.

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Whitemage aside, CUB3 has nerfed jobs in the past. It's only relatively recently that they stopped doing it because people, whose utterly overperforming jobs got reigned in a bit, complained and we can't have people feeling bad in this game.
Now we're running into the problem where potencies get more and more bloated over the course of an expansion because that's what happens when all you do is buff everything.

Take Summoner in Shadowbringers as an example. Both DoTs were slightly nerfed in 5.2 and then in 5.3 they nerfed Tri-Disaster by 50% because Summoner was outperfoming Blackmage even at the high end.
Seems like a much more elegant solution to me than buffing every other caster to be honest.