Do babies play this game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renalt

https://i.ibb.co/ZHwBPjc/giphy-7.gif

---

You did not just drag The Muppet babies into this dumpster fire!!!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

You did not just drag The Muppet babies into this dumpster fire!!!!

---

"Help us, Kermit. You're our only hope."

(The frog or JBP, idc.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DiaDeem

Actually...

https://imgur.com/o7B1cCX.png

Dark enough for you OP???

/thread

---

That one made me laugh because I love watching an unrepentant fash like that general pull a Berlin Bunker 1945.

https://i.ibb.co/K697Xk0/honk-if-you-hate.png

What are you talking about? The whole concept behind the endwalker failed civilizations was pretty depressing and thought provoking IMO.

On the topic of fakeout deaths, I'd be cool with Y'shtola coming back to life so many times if it actually took a toll on her health. Show her deteriorating health, writers, don't just tell.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ronibosch

On the topic of fakeout deaths, I'd be cool with Y'shtola coming back to life so many times if it actually took a toll on her health. Show her deteriorating health, writers, don't just tell.

---

Isn't her using aether to see supposed to be taking time off her lifespan? Or has that been retconned?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alleluia

Isn't her using aether to see supposed to be taking time off her lifespan? Or has that been retconned?

---

Yeah, it's supposed to, but they never brought it up again, so they probably retconned it.

Which sucks, because I was intrigued when it was first brought up.

It's not so much retconned as it's just never come up again. Even if it shortens her life, it hasn't mattered because the game's time bubble never moves.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

It's not so much retconned as it's just never come up again. Even if it shortens her life, it hasn't mattered because the game's time bubble never moves.

---

I don't know why, but the thought of how time works in this game is giving me a bit of an existential crisis...

Not as bad as Animal Crossing, though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alleluia

Isn't her using aether to see supposed to be taking time off her lifespan? Or has that been retconned?

---

No, English translation made it sound worst than it was. It just takes a bigger toll on her but if she rests she'll be fine. It's like she's casting a low level spell the entire time she's awake. Read her unending codex to see. Also ppl convinced themselves that matoya said it shortens her life span when she didn't. She says it uses her life force

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DiaDeem

Actually...

https://imgur.com/o7B1cCX.png

Dark enough for you OP???

/thread

---

Not dark enough like this
https://i.imgur.com/JDl3yeC.png
A bug avenging his fellow insects after Eorzeans nearly wiped the species. You hate to see it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bunnycake

Not dark enough like this
https://i.imgur.com/JDl3yeC.png
A bug avenging his fellow insects after Eorzeans nearly wiped the species. You hate to see it.

---

https://media.tenor.com/AdaSVzqCxLIA...gioh-anime.gif

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

You did not just drag The Muppet babies into this dumpster fire!!!!

---

Wakka Wakka!

The expansion that had us walk through the corpses of several dead planets: for babies!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Celine_Aurora

On the other hand, grim for the sake of being grim rapidly loses its value when it's overdone. Do you want it to go the A song of Ice and Fire route? Oh another POV character died or was horribly mutilated, I'm shocked I say, shocked.

They are never killing Y'shtola. She sells figures and represents us in Dissidia. I too wish the writer was more honest about the Scions' heroic sacrifice except not really in the MSQ, but in the end it's still Final Fantasy, what can you do?

---

This topic has been brought up many times, the best response to your question is best answered by the following post I'm about to quote:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

I suppose this might be another post to potentially bookmark in order to keep track of the points being raised but as has been pointed out in the past it is specifically being requested that there are meaningful lasting consequences for at least some of the major protagonists.

Not just throwaway side characters of little relevance who are created with the intention of dying horribly. Not only antagonists and villains who are predictably given a sob story to induce sympathy and then unceremoniously killed off.

The occasional character on the level of Alisae, Y'shtola, Urianger, Raubhan, Nanamo or Merlwyb actually facing death in a meaningful and well written fashion would do wonders to portray some actual stakes.

I'm not convinced that one sided magic and world altering abilities are particularly engaging, either. Wanting more fantasy elements does not necessarily equal wanting them to manifest solely as an excuse to shield the major characters at almost every turn, especially when the story is written in such a way as to disallow the antagonists to score any meaningful on screen victories.

I want a compelling story and lasting consequences would achieve that as far as I'm concerned.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

As has been pointed out over the numerous past occasions where the 'this is not Game of Thrones' line has been spouted, many of us aren't asking for mass death for the sake of mass death and are instead asking for death to occur where and when it makes sense. Cladding the bulk of the cast in extensive plot armour simply sends things in the opposite direction.

I would humbly suggest bookmarking this post if you're able to. It might help refresh your memory next time this same point is raised.

---

Looking at all the baby rage all over the forums, it sure looks like it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hunkygladiator

Do babies play this game.

---

Yes.

/10char

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bad_Luck

The expansion that had us walk through the corpses of several dead planets: for babies!

---

You mean empty space? Is the concept that there once was something alive too much for you to handle?

Just keep in mind that when someone has to die it is Alisaie.

She has basically no purpose in the party, her story was more or less over with Coil and since then she just hangs around. Her death would also open the way for new character development for Alphinaud.

While G'raha also has no real purpose of existing, we know that Krile will play a bigger role in the next expansion and it is likely that G'raha will as well since both are part of the Students of Baldesion.

My Elezen is not a baby. So no, babies do not play this game. :)


Cheers

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rymi64

No, English translation made it sound worst than it was. It just takes a bigger toll on her but if she rests she'll be fine. It's like she's casting a low level spell the entire time she's awake. Read her unending codex to see. Also ppl convinced themselves that matoya said it shortens her life span when she didn't. She says it uses her life force

---

English localization strikes again, I guess.

I am baby, hold me close oh tiny Zenos

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by VeyaAkemi

Oh please, we only ever had two good deaths ever, Haurchefant and Tesleen, Moen? she was literally introduced to die, Ysayle? killed off because they couldn't figure out what to do with her next and has zero impact on the story, Papalymo? fridged to kick off Lyse's development, with the goal of his sacrifice undone the next patch, Yotsuyu? a shallow end to an amazing arc, I guess redemption truly doesn't exist, nevermind that she never truly went back her evil ways and the entire Tsukuyomi thing was forcing our hand because she couldn't bear her own guilt any longer.

Haurchen dying serves to make Thordan into a true villain whom the player wants to take down(even if Thordan is still one of the weakest villains in the game), and Tesleen's death serves to rapidly and efficiently contextualize the brutality of life in the First, none of the other deaths in this game make me feel anything but disatisfaction or confusion.

---

you cna't be comparing Moenbryda and Tesleen's deaths favorably for Moenbryda. Tesleen is the one who was "literally introduced to die", she has like a dozen lines before she's discarded just to show us how horrific getting killed by a Sin Eater is.

Moenbryda meanwhile was meant to have a greater role, but if I recall correctly, the writer for that quest wanted to give Minfilia a tragic end, but was stopped and they had Moenbryda take her place.

Ysayle's death concludes and redeems her arc I think, she was struggling with the crimes she committed for believing in a lie, same as Ishgard, and she found redemption in fighting to give us a fighting chance. Or at least that's how I chose to see it, of course it's all post her death so I might be trying to read it into the writers shoving her in the fridge because they were done with her, as you said.

Yotsuyu, you seem to think that she was redeemed and she essentially committed suicide by cop, but that's not how I saw her. I think that she was only "redeemed" because she was free of pain, but as soon as it came back, her original reaction reasserted itself, that is, lashing back a hundredfold worse. It was frankly a bit dumb how Hien was willing to let bygones be bygones just because of a head injury, and the true conclusion to this arc was when it came back to bit all of his nation in the ass in Endwalker.

Papalymo, yeah, grossly mishandled, I agree.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Celine_Aurora

Moenbryda meanwhile was meant to have a greater role, but if I recall correctly, the writer for that quest wanted to give Minfilia a tragic end, but was stopped and they had Moenbryda take her place.

---

It doesn't matter to me what her role was meant to be, it matters what was realized, the outcome is still a character who gets introduced and immediately dies, her death doesn't even truly accomplish anything, Tesleen gets compared positively because Tesleen had a very specific goal in putting an image to the horror of Sin Eaters, that assists the narrative in my eyes far better than anything around Moen.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Celine_Aurora

Yotsuyu, you seem to think that she was redeemed and she essentially committed suicide by cop, but that's not how I saw her. I think that she was only "redeemed" because she was free of pain, but as soon as it came back, her original reaction reasserted itself, that is, lashing back a hundredfold worse.

---

The crux of Yotsuyu's arc to me is specifically the scene with her parents, she is pushed too far, and she snaps at the sight of them, but the thing is, how does she react to it? she sees her anger returning as the sign that she will always be the Witch of Doma, her anger will always return, and thus she must die, the monster must be put down, which puts her in the spot where she must drive a hero to kill her.

To me it feels very purposeful the only people Yotsuyu harms after her character arc proper starts are people that destroyed her life and nobody would blame her for lashing out against(and the WoL but eh we can take the beating), and she goes out congratulating the WoL for slaying her and putting an end to the suffering she caused, when if she had enough strength left to kill Asahi, she could absolutely have at least tried to kill the WoL, compare that to the first time she thought she was going to die and she was defiant to the end, decided to take as many as she could with her, she even gets a glimpse of hope towards the end of the Nightbloom sequence, when we managed to calm her down by quite literally beating the shit out of her inner demons, but then Tsukuyomi takes over again and the battle resumes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DiaDeem

Yeah, Alphinaud acting like a brat was a very deep mature story.

Those guys that "wanted more freedoms, no matter the cost" in Dead Ends that end up nuking all life on the planet on the other hand is a story for kids.

Right?

---

Don't forget the part in the story made for kids where a Garlean Officer blew his brains out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DragonFlyy

Don't forget the part in the story made for kids where a Garlean Officer blew his brains out.

---

Garlemald was my favorite part of Endwalker. A pity the rest of the base expansion was ruined by a burger eating catboy and silly moon rabbits.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Garlemald was my favorite part of Endwalker. A pity the rest of the base expansion was ruined by a burger eating catboy and silly moon rabbits.

---

Ultima Anime Clichès Area & Edgegirl Singer were worse for me... and the time travel... not to mention that the problem of getting to the edge of the universe was solved very easily and Zenos just became a nice guy. Not hurting the gang. No consequences anymore. Can't wait for FFXIV:ABC-Adventures

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tint

Just keep in mind that when someone has to die it is Alisaie.

She has basically no purpose in the party, her story was more or less over with Coil and since then she just hangs around. Her death would also open the way for new character development for Alphinaud.

While G'raha also has no real purpose of existing, we know that Krile will play a bigger role in the next expansion and it is likely that G'raha will as well since both are part of the Students of Baldesion.

---

God, please let Krile be a Beastmaster.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bunnycake

God, please let Krile be a Beastmaster.

---

Beastmaster and Shaman for 7.0 confirmed!

The plot genuinely needs a main character to suffer. Endwalker had that opportunity and Zenos could've been the driving force (imagine if he occupied WoL's body, infiltrated the scions, and then just casually murdered the twins or something), but it was all kinda wasted. Zenos ended up more likable than half the main cast because he doesn't actually hurt anyone we (the player) care about and is charismatic as hell. Main themes revolving around overcoming despair feel like a joke because the characters barely even sit with sadness in this chapter. Even when it seems like someone's died, they return 20 minutes later. Sadness doesn't even get to park its ass on the bench long enough to warm it, let alone fester into true despair.

i really wish we'd scrap most of the scions. They don't have to die necessarily, but just write them out and get someone who actually has a character arc and can possibly die. Zero is a good first step. A lot of people find her annoying, and so do I, but Alphinaud was annoying when he was introduced too. I can see the building blocks forming. If the writers stop dragging their feet with her (she repeats herself endlessly and the hat tipping has run its course ngl) then maybe we'll have another good arc. Inb4 she gets written off as a post-ew filler character though. Because god forbid we change up the scion brand. God forbid we get someone fresh. I swear to god if yshtola dies again in 7.0 and comes back 5 minutes later, my eyes are going to roll so far into the back of my head that I'm gonna look like one of those ahegao hentai bitches

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Avoidy

The plot genuinely needs a main character to suffer. Endwalker had that opportunity and Zenos could've been the driving force (imagine if he occupied WoL's body, infiltrated the scions, and then just casually murdered the twins or something), but it was all kinda wasted. Zenos ended up more likable than half the main cast because he doesn't actually hurt anyone we (the player) care about and is charismatic as hell. Main themes revolving around overcoming despair feel like a joke because the characters barely even sit with sadness in this chapter. Even when it seems like someone's died, they return 20 minutes later. Sadness doesn't even get to park its ass on the bench long enough to warm it, let alone fester into true despair.

i really wish we'd scrap most of the scions. They don't have to die necessarily, but just write them out and get someone who actually has a character arc and can possibly die. Zero is a good first step. A lot of people find her annoying, and so do I, but Alphinaud was annoying when he was introduced too. I can see the building blocks forming. If the writers stop dragging their feet with her (she repeats herself endlessly and the hat tipping has run its course ngl) then maybe we'll have another good arc. Inb4 she gets written off as a post-ew filler character though. Because god forbid we change up the scion brand. God forbid we get someone fresh. I swear to god if yshtola dies again in 7.0 and comes back 5 minutes later, my eyes are going to roll so far into the back of my head that I'm gonna look like one of those ahegao hentai bitches

---

Yeah, the writers kind of chickened out of the whole Zenos taking over our body. Would be so interesting to see our WoL going rogue just to see how unstoppable we really are. I know Zenos is meant to serve as that role, but it would drive home the foreshadowing during that scene in 3.0 where Thordan is dying and he sees a black silhouette of us, not to mention it would give the final battle against Zenos more scale. And yes, I know that scene foreshadowed us being Azem but it also made us look like we're incredibly dangerous.

I am in that camp that feels like Y'shtola has overstayed her welcome. Far too many exposition dumping brainiacs in the group, overall, but Y'shtola is especially dull in her personality. Alphinaud and Urianger are actually charming characters, meanwhile Y'shtola only exists because she has "dommy mommy" energy. It's a joke that just drags on for a bit too long. She has her funny moments, too, but imagine replacing her with Alisaie in that scene where you jokingly throw her under the bus for touching the void portal. Replace Y'shtola with Zero and the group will feel much more balanced. Come to think of it, even G'raha Tia was a wasted opportunity. He could have been the character who had a wise grandfather persona but instead he devolved into a fanboy. Both him and Y'shtola just feel like one note fanservice characters.

Edit: Wow I'm surprised I haven't been crucified yet, lol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Avoidy

The plot genuinely needs a main character to suffer.

---

More than suffering, what carries a story and its characters is conflict, and the growth that comes with it.

The main issue with the current main cast right now is that all their arcs are pretty much done, so there's not much more growth or conflict they have to go through anymore. Shtola never had much of a conflict. Alphinaud kinda settled by the end of Heavensward. Alisae and Thancred landed in Shadowbringers. Estinien, Graha and Urianger by Endwalker I think. The enjoyment of the story now hinges on how much you enjoy their base personalities, and that's not really what carries a story in the long term. I personally really enjoy Graha and Alisaie. I like them all in their own way, but that's just me, and not enough to carry a plot. Say what you will about Minfilia and Lyse, but both pretty much got retired after their arcs were complete, same for Hien's group. Ryne and Gaius are both gone, and I really enjoyed their stories in Shadowbringers to the point where I'd like more from them, but both their arcs are pretty much done as well. Heck, even the Emet/Hyth/Venat group took more of a backseat once their stories were done. I don't think the Scions need to die, but I think we need a whole new cast. You could give them new arcs too, but that runs the risk of repeating the same beats you had the characters overcome before. Like... I guess we can bring Zero and Krile with us? but we need to meet new companions with new arcs of their own.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by VeyaAkemi

snip

---

Gotta say you might have a point, didn't really see it that way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DiaDeem

Actually...

https://imgur.com/o7B1cCX.png

Dark enough for you OP???

/thread

---

Garlemald was by far the most interesting piece of this expansion and I wanted to spend way more time there. As for character deaths, I wouldn't mind it if they didn't do the fake out so much. That's something you can really only get away with once and after that it just becomes tired.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SieyaM

Garlemald was by far the most interesting piece of this expansion and I wanted to spend way more time there.

---

I enjoyed the sidequests there, but I don't know if they'd be up your alley, or how you felt about them if you've done them. They're more on the hopeful side, and I like that, but some seem to really dislike that from EW. Either way, I'd like more from Garlemald, kinda how we got a rather long follow up to the Domans living in Rev Toll for a while all the way to the rebuild effort at the Doman Enclave.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DiaDeem

More than suffering, what carries a story and its characters is conflict, and the growth that comes with it.

The main issue with the current main cast right is that their arcs are done, so there's not much more growth or conflict they have to go through anymore. Shtola never had much of a conflict. Alphinaud kinda settled by the end of Heavensward. Alisae and Thancred landed in Shadowbringers. Estinien, Graha and Urianger by Endwalker I think. The enjoyment of the story now hinges on how much you enjoy their base personalities, and that's not really where you wanna be for a story going forward. I personally really enjoy Graha and Alisaie. I like them all in their own way, but that's just me, and not enough to carry a plot. Say what you will about Minfilia and Lyse, but both pretty much got retired after their arcs were complete, and that was better for the story. Hien and Yugiri are pretty much retired as well. Ryne and Gaius are both gone, and I really enjoyed them in Shadowbringers to the point where I'd like more from them, but both their arcs as well are pretty much done. Heck, even the Emet/Hyth/Venat group took more of a backseat once their stories were done. I don't think the Scions need to die, but I think we need a whole new cast. Like... I guess we can bring Zero and Krile with us? but we need to meet new companions with arcs of their own.

---

I agree. Main reason I said suffering and not conflict is because, like you mentioned, the conflict for these characters is basically finished. Now that they're established and generally liked though, there's plenty of room for these characters to suffer, preferably at the hands of a villain we're meant to despise. But we can't even have that. Instead it's as you said, "the enjoyment of the story now hinges on how much you enjoy their base personalities," and that's a tall order imo.

Suffering for suffering's sake just so a villain can be hateable is... eh. Like good stories can involve suffering, but putting it as the stated goal just feels like edge.

Time for yet another "why Endwalker sucks" thread, huh?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Irenia

Suffering for suffering's sake just so a villain can be hateable is... eh. Like good stories can involve suffering, but putting it as the stated goal just feels like edge.

---

Nah I didn't mean it as the primary goal, more just... It's a means to an end. From that suffering, you can create something else like more internal character conflict, or motivation for other characters to act in unpredictable ways, or growth for characters who've been neglected but now have to respond to what's just happened. A lot of possibilities open up if you're not afraid to let your characters struggle and suffer a bit. And the drama is captivating, because the audience has been given time to like these characters.

Seriously, the scions as they are now just do nothing but preach platitudes about friendship and overcoming adversity. Their internal issues or flaws that they wrestled with resolved years ago. They have nothing left to do but exist. They're the food equivalent of white bread that's been left out overnight. They'd be more interesting if you toasted them or ripped them up and put them in some soup or something. Do something to these people, otherwise just write them out and give us someone else. Anyone else.