The Healers should be reworked? New player perspective.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Oh I get it. Statistics are irrelevant with a sample size too small if they disagree with you, but if you put out a survey and the results agree with you, it's representative. You'll note that I quite clearly said this thread was representative OF THE FORUMS, which is a small portion of the population. This is normal Renathras, nothing to see here.

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Something worth noting as well in regards to survey statistics... According to SurveyMonkey, feedback from about 100 people is enough to get results that are within a +/- 10% margin at least even as a population continues to grow. Over on the general discussion page, the job design feedback forms I've had out have collected about 150 votes from players that aren't just forum frequenters and lurkers, but also people from reddit, tumblr, and twitch. Based on the chart on SurveyMonkey, that would put us somewhere between a +/-10% accuracy range and a +/- 5% accuracy range.

I worked out the average score from 1 to 10 that the healing role has earned as a whole, which has placed it at a 4.85/10. If we stick to the +/- 10% value, that means, at best, the general reception of healers would a 5.85/10, a fairly mediocre score. That, to me, sounds consistent with the amount of upvoting the OP received as well. I don't think the general population may hold the same fervor as the people who post here, but I do think there's enough truth to that post that many would agree with it at least partially.

On a side tangent, that also means the values we have for the desire to see more DPS actions on healers that I shared yesterday indicates that the true percentages across the population of FFXIV players would fall within the following ranges:
WHM - 73.2% - 93.2%
SCH - 74.8% - 94.8%
AST - 56.5% - 76.5%
SGE - 76.3% - 96.3%

Okay, let me get into it in a bit more details as to why I think this.

1) The forums don't have a dislike button. You mention 240 likes - how many people dislike that post? More? Less? Do you know? No. So we can't really use that as a solid metric since, even WITHIN THIS COMMUNITY of forum goers, we don't know how many hold the contra position.

2) For a poll to be accurate, the sample has to reflect the whole population. You're not just taking any sample of the population. Go to CPAC or the RNC and poll people on some hot button political issue like abortion or gun control and you're VERY LIKELY not to get a representative sample of what the nation as a whole things. Same thing if you went to the DNC instead. Sample bias, self-selection, and getting a representative sample are huge issues for pollsters, which spend tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars to control for and get a good sample. "240 likes" does literally none of those things.

3) We all know most of the playerbase does not use the forums. Many of us didn't even know they existed until we ran across them randomly in a google search or something. More or less everyone here has agreed that the forumgoers are ON AVERAGE much more antagonistic towards the game than the average player is. So we already know the sample is biased (see (2)), and is not an accurate representation of the playerbase.

Even Ty noted, when we started up these surveys, that they would likely lean more to the "Healers are bad/boring, change them" side since that's what the bulk of the sample will be between here and FFXIV_Discussion.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

And yet, if your opinion is 'the mainstream', why do so few seem to agree with it?

Even the remove rescue threads get more support than you do.

Why is that?

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See (3)

(Also for the record: I don't claim my opinion is mainstream. I've estimated my position is held by somewhere between 25-40% of the playerbase, but there's really no way to know. It's also why I like solutions like the 4 Healer Model since it allows the game to appeal to everyone more or less simultaneously, including my minority.)

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

You do realize... casual players did precisely as I described when Cleric Stance existed, yes?

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AIN is always tank due to how the system prioritize roles in order.

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This called statistical averaging. You only need enough of a sample size to make an assessment on the probability of a majority opinion.

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In the case of online opinions, if the overall sentiment remains vastly one-sided, it suggests mass indifference at best or those opinions are, indeed, widespread even amongst the average playerbase.

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Several things in here:

1) Cleric Stance almost tore the community apart, and Gordias/Midas almost ended the game a second time by destroying the raiding community. Yeah, casuals weren't using Cleric. And they were bitched at endlessly over it. Meanwhile, hardcores that used Cleric at a bad time and got their parties killed in casual content (which did happen) were also excoriated over it. HW was arguably the worst time in the game to be a Healer other than being a WHM in SB.

2) AIN is not always Tank. That's factually untrue. There HAVE been periods where AIN was mostly Healers. It defaults to Tank when all three roles are about equally in need (e.g. Healer isn't the least played, it's about equally played to Tanks) and it's Tank when, obviously, Tanks are the one most in need (e.g. Healer isn't the least played, and is more played vs Tanks). If the AIN is Tank, that means, in one of two ways, that Healers are NOT being vastly underplayed at that time. Though as I've noted, AIN is anecdotal.

3) Statistical averaging requires not JUST a sample size but a REPRESENTATIVE sample. Again, go to the RNC and ask them about abortion. The results of such a poll would absolutely NOT reflect the nation as a whole, even if you have literally thousands of people in your sample size there. Sample SIZE is one part of a good poll, but the other part is REPRESENTATIVE sample. These forums, as we've all more or less agreed, is not a representative sample of the population.

4) "In the case of online opinion" - again, representative sample. Many people posting online are posting BECAUSE they don't like the way the game is. This means you have a sample of people who are driven to express themselves because they don't like things. While that IS actually significant on its own (it means there are people who don't like things, obviously, and a lot of them), it DOESN'T tell us what the whole thinks. What if 30% hated things the way they are? That's a sizeable percentage. Definitely enough people that you should talk to them, listen to them, consider options that make them happy. But...it's also a minority. Meaning if the other 70% would be more angry if you made the changes the 30% want, now you have to ask which is the greater weight on your decision making. A large online block asking for something - if they were all asking for the same thing - is significant, but doesn't tell us as much as you think. We don't even know how many this is. Is it 10,000 or 500,000? Is it 20% or 80%? But SE has their whole internal database of players and a lot of other metrics that we do not have.

Moreover, they AREN'T all asking for the same thing. Many people are advocating for changes like more buffing, changing encounter design, more healing, different types of healing, etc.

Even I'm asking for changes, just not the same changes. So even I may not be representing the majority position if the majority position is no changes/maintaining the status quo.

There is not a case here of a large portion of the population speaking with one voice. We have a cacophony of voices crying out for different things, and it may not even be a majority to begin with, and almost certainly is not a representative sample of the population as a whole.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

1) Cleric Stance almost tore the community apart, and Gordias/Midas almost ended the game a second time by destroying the raiding community. Yeah, casuals weren't using Cleric. And they were bitched at endlessly over it. Meanwhile, hardcores that used Cleric at a bad time and got their parties killed in casual content (which did happen) were also excoriated over it. HW was arguably the worst time in the game to be a Healer other than being a WHM in SB.

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I can agree with the divide over Cleric Stance.

Gordias and Midas didn't destroy the raid scene though. Not at all. A1S and A2S were easy to the point that both fights were cleared with 3.0 AST aka a 7 man clear ;) A3S and A4S just set the bar really quite high. You had to really be on the ball, IMHO you absolutely needed multiple people parsing in the group and you had to be willing to replace people for the good of the group if need be. After I stood down from hardcore raiding partway through the tier (House fire reasons) I later cleared it with a casual to mid-core group precisely because we were willing to make the cuts as needed.

Meanwhile the only issue with Midas was that A6S aka the robots fight probably should have been swapped with A7S. Perhaps dropping from combat between each mini boss might have made it a little more pug friendly but I dunno, it just wasn't a PF friendly fight. Outside of that difficulty spike, the tier was fine. A8S was an incredible fight with the only dig I'll accept being that it was a bit long and complex compared to anything we'd seen prior. It wasn't anything like as unforgiving as A3S/A4S though.

A key thing that you're overlooking here is that hardcore FCs were absolutely flourishing at the time. I'd argue that dedicated raid FCs are in a far worse state now than they were back in early Heavensward. Gordias pulverised pugs and casuals trying to clear savage for sure, but it certainly didn't destroy the raid scene nor even come close. The burst DPS requirements were just too high thanks to the mistakes SE made in how they tuned it.

"3) We all know most of the playerbase does not use the forums. Many of us didn't even know they existed until we ran across them randomly in a google search or something. More or less everyone here has agreed that the forumgoers are ON AVERAGE much more antagonistic towards the game than the average player is. So we already know the sample is biased (see (2)), and is not an accurate representation of the playerbase."

I will agree on the first point - although we do not *know* that most of the playerbase doesn't use the forums, it's a fairly safe assumption given the size of the playerbase. However stating that *they are much more antagonistic towards the game than the average player"- hold on there.

First of all, what does "antagonistic towards the game" even mean? If someone expresses that they don't favour some recent job design change, would you consider that "antagonistic"? What if the person states that the current housing system is poorly designed , they can never win the lottery- when will it be improved- would that be "antagonistic" or not representative of the "average player" - whomever that is?

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Okay, let me get into it in a bit more details as to why I think this.

1) The forums don't have a dislike button. You mention 240 likes - how many people dislike that post? More? Less? Do you know? No. So we can't really use that as a solid metric since, even WITHIN THIS COMMUNITY of forum goers, we don't know how many hold the contra position.

2) For a poll to be accurate, the sample has to reflect the whole population. You're not just taking any sample of the population. Go to CPAC or the RNC and poll people on some hot button political issue like abortion or gun control and you're VERY LIKELY not to get a representative sample of what the nation as a whole things. Same thing if you went to the DNC instead. Sample bias, self-selection, and getting a representative sample are huge issues for pollsters, which spend tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars to control for and get a good sample. "240 likes" does literally none of those things.

3) We all know most of the playerbase does not use the forums. Many of us didn't even know they existed until we ran across them randomly in a google search or something. More or less everyone here has agreed that the forumgoers are ON AVERAGE much more antagonistic towards the game than the average player is. So we already know the sample is biased (see (2)), and is not an accurate representation of the playerbase.

Even Ty noted, when we started up these surveys, that they would likely lean more to the "Healers are bad/boring, change them" side since that's what the bulk of the sample will be between here and FFXIV_Discussion.

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Forums doesn't need a dislike button in this case for something like this to work -- If someone does not favor OP's post, a following post countering OP's argument in the same thread will be made and people will upvote that like crazy if the majority disagrees with the OP. There has been many precedents of this happening if you look all over the forums. It happens a lot more often than you think in General Discussion threads as well when the trolls show up. Just look at the thread about rescue, you can clearly see if people don't agree with the OP, they'll upvote comments against OP's suggestion. This is pretty much the "Dislike" method.

I'm confused on what accuracy you are still missing for these samples. Haven't you and ty said you were posting the poll on alternate forms of social media? It has been in the forums, on reddit, twitter, tumblr, and twitch. That's pretty much as diverse set of group you can get. If the results from all those collective sources still resulted in a negative review to a job... that's pretty damning to me.
I only bring this up because you say many people posting online don't like the way the game is when they vote on the polls, yet the feedback and results from other jobs have proven otherwise. Have you looked at casters or melee results? Other than SMN, the ratings for those jobs are sky high. People will still vote regardless as long as they play the job - whether people love the job or hate it surprisingly has no bearing. Otherwise, there wouldn't be such a positive reception towards these jobs (With BLM reaching over 70% consensus saying no rework is necessary no less!). It's actually more surprising that these jobs are still rated as high as they are, which only proves the results aren't skewed to negativity but are actually unbiased opinions from people who play those jobs.

The only thing I can think that can truly improve the data is spreading the poll to Discord servers. I've seen and met a surprising number of players, from casual, to RPers, to hardcore raiders, large swathes of FCs, etc. on discord. If any biases still exist in this data, having them also contribute to the poll can definitely remove any remaining biases for these jobs by drastically increasing the sample size of all types of players who play that job.

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

First of all, what does "antagonistic towards the game" even mean?

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In simple terms, most people that think everything is fine as it is aren't coming to the forums to discuss how much they love everything as it is and want it to stay as it is - they're in the game, paying the game. I didn't think I even would need to say this, but it's pretty well accepted overall that people that frequent game feedback and discussion forums tend to be the people with some complaints. That's not true of everyone (though it seems to be here on these forums - even FFXIV_Discussion says that the Official English forum is toxic and filled with complainers; and that's saying a lot considering so is FFXIV_Discussion!), but often is true of the bulk of posts, particularly the most active posters, in a given forum of this type.

Let's just consider the posts here. Other than me and MAYBE Osmand, how many people are posting here saying the game is good right now? You can argue that you think it's bad, but you'd think with a game this big, there'd be a decent amount saying they like it. Yet only 1 and some change here saying that vs 10-20 routinely hating on it, alongside some less frequent posters saying the same. Clearly, the bulk of people here posting don't like healing in the game right now, but surely with ALL the casual healers that play, it's more than TWO people that think it's good, right?

I think it's fair to say that the vast majority posting here are people who do not like the game as it currently exists. But that doesn't mean that the whole community feels that way, or feels strongly about it. Hence why this forum is a poor sample.

We can see this in a lot of ways, too. Like how these forums HATE SMN, while the community as a whole seems to like the Job considering how many play it and how widely it's supported in general circles and stats.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

I can agree with the divide over Cleric Stance.

Gordias and Midas didn't destroy the raid scene though. Not at all. A1S and A2S were easy to the point that both fights were cleared with 3.0 AST aka a 7 man clear ;) A3S and A4S just set the bar really quite high. You had to really be on the ball, IMHO you absolutely needed multiple people parsing in the group and you had to be willing to replace people for the good of the group if need be. After I stood down from hardcore raiding partway through the tier (House fire reasons) I later cleared it with a casual to mid-core group precisely because we were willing to make the cuts as needed.

Meanwhile the only issue with Midas was that A6S aka the robots fight probably should have been swapped with A7S. Perhaps dropping from combat between each mini boss might have made it a little more pug friendly but I dunno, it just wasn't a PF friendly fight. Outside of that difficulty spike, the tier was fine. A8S was an incredible fight with the only dig I'll accept being that it was a bit long and complex compared to anything we'd seen prior. It wasn't anything like as unforgiving as A3S/A4S though.

A key thing that you're overlooking here is that hardcore FCs were absolutely flourishing at the time. I'd argue that dedicated raid FCs are in a far worse state now than they were back in early Heavensward. Gordias pulverised pugs and casuals trying to clear savage for sure, but it certainly didn't destroy the raid scene nor even come close. The burst DPS requirements were just too high thanks to the mistakes SE made in how they tuned it.

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HARDcore were. Midcore wasn't. PUG wasn't. Even the lighter end of the hardcore weren't (mostly due to burnout). Recruiting was difficult, getting people to even try Savage once the horror stories came out was difficult. Raid groups disbanded and had to merge, etc. It was pretty bad at the time for much of the raiding community and did almost break the game a second time. Healers were hard to come by. Tanks were near impossible to come by. And several Jobs weren't just undertuned but were borderline non-viable.

Yes, the ultra 1% was flourishing, but no one else was.

Contrast with now where we have the opposite situation. The hardcore ultra raiders are the ones getting bored and burned out (even in Ultimate), but community engagement with Savage is the highest it's ever been.

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

Forums doesn't need a dislike button in this case for something like this to work -- If someone does not favor OP's post, a following post countering OP's argument in the same thread will be made and people will upvote that like crazy if the majority disagrees with the OP.

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Can you show me a single case on this forum where this has ever happened?

Follow-up posts are often not voted on much, and if they're passed the 3rd page or so, often get entirely overlooked. YES, you have to have a dislike button for the like count to have any meaning since you have no way to judge those who approve vs those who do not. It doesn't happen often. Even in the General Discussion threads, if a post is passed the second or third page, it tends not to get voted on nearly as much as the OP of a thread does. Moreover, it's horribly inconsistent. Several posts may disagree with the OP, but they all get different amounts of likes. Which number is the one we use? You can see that with the Rescue thread and how all these different posts both supporting and opposing the OP are getting wildly different amounts of likes. And again, that's ignoring the self-selection bias.

And that's just a start, as it doesn't solve the other issues such as selection bias (the people who frequent forums vs the community at large) and so on.

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As to the polls, they were posted here. And I think cross posted on Reddit, unless Ty posted them in other places. Neither are likely representative of the game's playerbase overall. And even with such a negative bias, Healers still got an "average" rating of around 5. Getting a resounding "average" from a hostile demographic isn't "pretty damning".

The only Job that got a SUPER positive result was Black Mage...which is among the least played (and presumably least enjoyed) by the playerbase at large. THAT is what is pretty damning as far as the poll results go. If the Job that is among, if not THE, least played, LIKELY due to being the least enjoyed by the playerbase at large, is also the highest rated here, that kind of indicates a disjoint with the poll results vs the playerbase as a whole. The Jobs that got high marks - let's say above a 7 - are:

WAR, GNB, NIN, DRG, RPR, DNC, BLM (the ONLY Job to get above an 8), RDM.

Of those, three are generally among the higher played Jobs (WAR, DNC, and RDM), and the highest rated by far in the poll, is also among the least played. Something I even noted in the thread itself about BLM, specifically, is that the only people voting on it seemed to be BLM mains or something.

PLD, DRK, MNK, SAM, BRD, MCH, SMN, and all the Healers are rated below this level.

Including the other most played Jobs in the game, WHM and SMN, which are ranked super low. WHM is ranked lower than most of the other Healers (aside from AST) despite being the most played by far (it's somewhat strange to think people who hate the Job and like the others better somehow all choose to play the one they hate, especially since WHM isn't meta by any stretch), and SMN lower than the other Casters (and, indeed, ALL Jobs), despite being widely regarded positively by the non-forum community and being the most played of the Casters. While some people do play it who hate it (because unlike WHM, it IS meta), there are a lot of people around the community that seem to really like it.

Indeed, the SMN/BLM disconnect in the poll vs what all we know about the community at large is pretty stark.

I dunno, strikes me as a really odd result that's pretty disjointed from everything we know about how the playerbase at large feels about the Job, which has me wondering about how well the rest of the poll does or doesn't capture the sentiment of the majority.

Whether this is true or not is hard to say, but I find it VERY strange to believe that most players love BLM, much less love it so much more than every other Job, when it's still the least played, despite it ARGUABLY being meta AND being the only viable 2 Caster comp member.

Believe what you wish, but I do not believe this poll is solidly representative of the playerbase as a whole. /shrug

I'm not really sure how to get the poll to a wider audience, though. And, as I noted before, having players pick and choose which ones to respond to (instead of having it as a full poll of all Jobs where players rate them all) leads to some strange artifacts in the data. BLM is probably the biggest example of this.

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EDIT: However, I don't think that makes it useless.

The long form answers and feed back about what specific systems people dislike are probably more useful - again, players are good at spotting problems.

But the rating system is already weird (1-10 not 0-10, among other things), and seems to in some cases mesh with what we suspect of the community as a whole, but in other cases, completely conflict with it.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Can you show me a single case on this forum where this has ever happened?

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Here's 1

Here's Another

Here's a decisive one where the whole front page is going strong

Here's another example, a thread from the healer forums back during Heavensward. Note the paradigm shift between the healer forums then and the healer forums now.

The forums are not exclusively a place people seek out to complain. Forums and online environments for discussion are also places people gravitate toward when they're passionate about something. That's how a fandom works. It only leans negative now because the last few expansions have been a point of negative reception by the dedicated healer community, but that's not to say that everyone who ever visits the forums agrees either. Lurkers are a thing, and who knows how many lurkers these threads get, and who actually likes posts. I certainly believe that the general view of the audience that frequents the forums leans more negative than the overall community, but by how much? I can't quantify that. I've said before, most people who get invested in games are very tolerant. It's very possible that the general audience would be happy with many of the changes proposed here, but don't find the current healers a big enough problem to really care either way. That's a very normal response for your typical gamer.

The best thing you can do is gather information from different sources, because you'll never be able to poll information from every player anyway.

Who cares if the only people voting on it are black mage mains? It’s not like every job has to be for everyone. That’s exactly what the complainant about homogenisation is.

Or perhaps BLM is rated that highly because it has the design philosophy that everyone wants for their own main job?

- Easy to understand and execute at the basic level (standard rotation)
- Has a high ceiling for optimisation (transpose lines)
- Forgiving enough to not have their entire rotation crumble on death or when they don't get full uptime for 2 minutes
- Has ways to overcome their weakness
- Rewards job and fight knowledge

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Originally Posted by Renathras

HARDcore were. Midcore wasn't. PUG wasn't. Even the lighter end of the hardcore weren't (mostly due to burnout). Recruiting was difficult, getting people to even try Savage once the horror stories came out was difficult. Raid groups disbanded and had to merge, etc. It was pretty bad at the time for much of the raiding community and did almost break the game a second time. Healers were hard to come by. Tanks were near impossible to come by. And several Jobs weren't just undertuned but were borderline non-viable.

Yes, the ultra 1% was flourishing, but no one else was.

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Dude...

I was literally there progging and clearing A3S/A4S with a midcore group within a fairly casual FC at the time.

We were 1 of 2 or 3 teams within the FC, I'm fairly sure all managed to clear A4S, I'm also fairly sure my team was the last.

Look at the the changes in membership between my group's first A3S and A4S clears.... We replaced 3 people from memory and I don't remember us ever having trouble doing so. Recruiting was no better or worse than it is now, the challenge was finding people that were good and reliable enough.

Again. I was literally there in the middle of it and have the logs to prove it, you don't even have an A1S clear listed, nor did you get the A4S achievement until last year, so I can only assume that you're going off conjecture and after the fact here say with no actual first hand experience to speak of. Don't you make a big deal trying to debunk people in other threads about this exact thing? The lighter end of hardcores were absolutely not burning out en mass, that's absolute BS. The lighter end of midcore hit a wall for sure. But not Hardcore. It was the pugs and casuals that gave up with it.

Trying to claim the ultra 1% were the only people dealing with it is just plain wrong. I'm not even close to that, neither was my group ;)

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

static classifications

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Okay, I think I get you now, because when you said you were in a casual to midcore static and you were replacing people, I was confused, because replacing people is a midcore/hardcore move. But if your FC was casual with a more intense raid static, then yeah, it's cool.

These terms are all vague anyway, maybe you do believe a casual-midcore group replaces people, but when I think casual, I think groups like mine, where it's a coin flip whether or not we clear a tier on content because enjoying the content is more important than progressing it. In my mind, if you're kicking someone due to performance, you aren't casual.

The "1%", though, I see as more of a representation rather than an actual percent. The hardcore aspirants that actually have the skills to back up their ambitions are the "1%". I have no idea if the percentage is higher or lower, but it is clear that these people are/were a minority of a minority, especially back In HW when we, the player base as a whole, weren't as skilled at the game as we are now.

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Originally Posted by fulminating

Who cares if the only people voting on it are black mage mains? It’s not like every job has to be for everyone. That’s exactly what the complainant about homogenisation is.

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I filled out the healer sections because I play healers. I did not fill out the Caster/Tank/Melee/Ranged, because I do not play those. Is it 'fair' for me, someone who DESPISES BLM gameplay, hate it with a passion, to fill out the BLM form, say 'its bad and trash completely start over' when others who main the class, enjoy the class for what it is? No, I don't think it is fair. I think that it's 'okay' to fill out the forms for your role, and if you really want, roles you previously mained (so as to indicate why you quit them).

Imagine if enough people who hate BLM gameplay because 'its too hard' or whatever cried about it so hard, that SE did a SMN on it, and made it super unrecognizable to the devoted mains of the job. Maybe that's ok in Ren's world but I think it'd be awful for everyone (mostly because the people who wanted it 'to be changed' would likely try it for a bit, then swap back to something else anyway, just look at healer churn)

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Originally Posted by Renathras

1) Cleric Stance almost tore the community apart, and Gordias/Midas almost ended the game a second time by destroying the raiding community. Yeah, casuals weren't using Cleric. And they were bitched at endlessly over it. Meanwhile, hardcores that used Cleric at a bad time and got their parties killed in casual content (which did happen) were also excoriated over it. HW was arguably the worst time in the game to be a Healer other than being a WHM in SB.
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I know I'm just one idiot in a sea of players, but I levelled every class to 60 in HW. NOT A SINGLE TIME, whether it was me or a rando as the healer, did I see any mention that 'you're not using cleric stance, fix it', or anything to that effect. I don't know where you're getting this picture that everyone was demanding full 100% sweaty CLEAR COMMS gameplay in the EX roulettes, but it sure as hell didn't happen to me. I think maybe your server is just toxic as hell? Or maybe it's an NA thing.

Saw a few 'you forgot to use Protect' instances though, or 'you forgot tank stance' because 'haha you level synced, time to clear all your buffs'

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Originally Posted by Renathras

And that's just a start, as it doesn't solve the other issues such as selection bias (the people who frequent forums vs the community at large) and so on.

As to the polls, they were posted here. And I think cross posted on Reddit, unless Ty posted them in other places. Neither are likely representative of the game's playerbase overall. And even with such a negative bias, Healers still got an "average" rating of around 5. Getting a resounding "average" from a hostile demographic isn't "pretty damning".

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I love how someone mentioned mental gymnastics a few posts ago and here's the prime example.

1st- You do not have solid data that supports your hypothesis that the population that answered is biased because not only people from the forum answered the poll and you lack information about the percentage of population that come from other sources or even if the opinion of the forum is that different from the majority.

2nd- The average score is 6.51, healers got 4.85 they are WAY below average, so much in fact that the difference between healers (5th) and the 4th spot is 2.24 times bigger than the difference between the 4th spot and the 1st

3rd- The poll goes from 1 to 10 so if anything to get to the middle point a role would need a 5.5, healers do not even reach that, they fail.

4th- The negative bias should happen for every job however healers stand out for having 4 out of the 5 lowest rated jobs in the game, that is an indication that even if that bias existed there is something really wrong in the healer design that increase its negative impact much further than any other role in the game

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BLM

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Playerbase=/=quality or enjoyment. BLM has a niche, plays strongly into it, its tools are rarely redundant, rewards the players for job knowledge and knows that not every job has to be for everyone, thats why it gets so many good results because people who like BLM REALLY like it and its design is so on point that even people that know the job is not for them can appreciate how well those tools are crafted.

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Indeed, the SMN/BLM disconnect in the poll vs what all I THINK about the community at large is pretty stark

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FTFY

Consider, BLU is arguably THE most divisive topic. While SMN and it's rework, or PLD and it's rework more recently, are also 'divisive', BLU is a job that cannot even enter the current endgame content, nor some of the older stuff like ultimates, Eureka, Bozja, Deep Dungeons. And still, BLU beats every healer's average. If THAT can beat healers, by two whole points of 'average rating-ness', that says a lot about healers.

Ironically, I've seen a fair few people across these forums, on reddit, etc. making mention of how fun BLU is as a healer. And consider what HealBLU actually is: very few 'healing skills' (pom cure, exuviation, gobskin, maybe strotram, angelsnack, a res with a CD), and like 16+ 'damage and support' actions like Offguard or Peculiar Light, your actual damage skill, Song of Torment, Bristle and Whistle for buffing the next GCD (wow Kaiten much?), the Primal actions for your 2min burst, access to other utilities of varying importance like a blind, bind, heavy, stun, sleep, slow, silence, all of which are usually distributed amongst the whole team, defensives that have opportunity costs (diamondback makes you unable to move or attack for 10s and costs 30% of your entire MP), a super strong heal skill that has an opportunity cost (of 15% of your MP, and if you're low HP it becomes worse), combination skills that work together to become greater than the sum of their parts (Tingle > Whistle > Triple Trident is worth more than 3x any 220p spam skill, Bristle > Matra Magic is more than 2x the spam skill, etc)

And ironically, it fulfills the 'make healing be GCD' parameter some are asking for. It just has way less healing skills in total, so the whole 'rescale the OGCD potencys now that they are GCD' step can be skipped. That's good for dev time! Damn the more I think on it, the more it feels like the class is situated pretty close to 'what healer should look like' that's crazy

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Originally Posted by Irenia

Okay, I think I get you now, because when you said you were in a casual to midcore static and you were replacing people, I was confused, because replacing people is a midcore/hardcore move. But if your FC was casual with a more intense raid static, then yeah, it's cool.

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In ARR and early Gordias I raided for Solitude, Exordium and Angered. You were expected to prepare, you were expected to bring pots, we raided 3 to 4 days a week at a minimum and the FC decided teams, not the groups themselves. If someone was unable to play for a week, someone else would be drafted in immediately. These were what I would define as hardcore teams even before speed runs were popular.

After I stood down from Angered part way through Gordias, I joined a team in a much more casual FC called DiZ. There was no trial to join the FC, and unlike my previous hardcore FCs, the groups handled their affairs themselves and weren't required to keep to members within the FC. We raided 2 to 3 days a week for maybe a lockout and a half. We didn't spend out of raid hours optimising and planning things and pots weren't enforced. As for our replacements, we had more people simply outgrow the group and move on to more hardcore teams than we ever kicked over under performing.

This is me helping the spiritual successor to that group in Eden Savage, do we really look hardcore to you? ;)

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

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The counter post with...32 likes?

The second one doesn't seem to have any strong counters, just people saying "I don't care" or "I don't go to them".

The third one is people calling out (the same guy as the first one?) for using Steam numbers as if they're the whole game. Something that's objectively wrong, not a matter of opinion, and the counter post has 12 more likes. But again, this is a matter of factual reporting, not a matter of opinion, so doesn't quite work the same way. Moreover, posts 3 and 4 just kind of go back and forth. It seems more like two factions warring with each other and liking their side's post, but then everyone lost interest after that. XD

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

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7 vs 25 6 years ago? I'm not sure that says "this thing can happen now".

Collectively, these examples don't really give a strong indication of this happening much. In fact, it's not even clear they'd be great examples of this happening at all.

But it's not a hill worth dying on. General Discussion isn't the Healer subforum. Though I'm kind of curious about something now...going to test it out.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

The forums are not exclusively a place people seek out to complain.

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Agreed. I came here to discuss things with people about a game I love before I got dragged into this morass of semi-defending it and being disparaged for doing so all the time.

However, that doesn't negate that the people who come here and have THESE discussions largely are doing so BECAUSE they don't like the way things are and want a change. The motive is irrelevant - I'm not saying you folks don't care or the like - I'm saying it taints the results of polling, as you your self noted before. Yes, lurkers are a thing, but it doesn't seem nay engage with the posts here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fulminating

Who cares if the only people voting on it are black mage mains? It’s not like every job has to be for everyone. That’s exactly what the complainant about homogenisation is.

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That's...literally my point.

Well, one of them, anyway.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

Or perhaps BLM is rated that highly because it has the design philosophy that everyone wants for their own main job?

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Doubtful, since not everyone likes all those things. It's rated highly because the kind of people who DO want those things play BLM and are the only people who seemed to have participated in the BLM survey. People who didn't like BLM seem not to have been many of the respondents. They simply don't like it, so they don't play it, so they didn't respond to its section.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Dude...

I was literally there progging and clearing A3S/A4S with a midcore group within a fairly casual FC at the time.

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I don't think casual means what you think it means. Other people also doing the content at the time have weighed in on it, and the general position seems to be that it did, in fact, nearly kill the raiding community, if not the game. "We replaced 3 people"; that's kind of the point. Statics and raid teams WERE SHUTTING DOWN. You didn't have trouble replacing people because THEIR static had broken and they were looking for a home. And, as you note, "the challenge was finding people that were good...enough", because a lot WEREN'T clearing the content.

"It was the pugs and casuals that gave up with it" - but you just said you were "fairly casual". So did casuals give up, or were you not really casual?

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Originally Posted by Irenia

Okay, I think I get you now, because when you said you were in a casual to midcore static and you were replacing people, I was confused, because replacing people is a midcore/hardcore move. But if your FC was casual with a more intense raid static, then yeah, it's cool.

These terms are all vague anyway, maybe you do believe a casual-midcore group replaces people, but when I think casual, I think groups like mine, where it's a coin flip whether or not we clear a tier on content because enjoying the content is more important than progressing it. In my mind, if you're kicking someone due to performance, you aren't casual.

The "1%", though, I see as more of a representation rather than an actual percent. The hardcore aspirants that actually have the skills to back up their ambitions are the "1%". I have no idea if the percentage is higher or lower, but it is clear that these people are/were a minority of a minority, especially back In HW when we, the player base as a whole, weren't as skilled at the game as we are now.

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This.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

NOT A SINGLE TIME

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I saw it as a DPS, a Tank, and sometimes a Healer. AS A TANK I once stopped a run briefly to tell off a DPS that was being an absolute dick to the Healer who wasn't using Cleric. We continued on and the DPS tried to pull a dick move drop as I started a pull, but we managed it, got another DPS, then went through the rest of the encounter (I also taught the Healer and both DPSers, since one was a SMN and the other a BRD about how DoTs worked and how they could use them more effectively and some other stuff; got 3 comms for that run, still remember it). YES, this DID happen. And it happened fairly frequently.

It happened enough that Square removed Cleric Stance. If it wasn't happening, they wouldn't have removed it. Clearly your experience was the outlier.

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Originally Posted by WaxSw

I love how someone mentioned mental gymnastics a few posts ago and here's not an example, but I'm going to say it is because I lack any good faith.

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FTFY

ONE thing I will comment on, though:

BLM - yup, has a niche and plays to it. The people who love it, love it, and the people who hate it, don't touch it and seem to not respond to the poll on it, leaving it with an artificially high score.

This is why the Four Healers Model should be done, so that Healers have the same types of situation that Casters have with BLM existing.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

...

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I don't care much for BLU healing.

I didn't vote on BLU.

So BLU has a higher rating because I didn't give it 1s across the board.

Thank you for kind of proving my point.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Doubtful, since not everyone likes all those things. It's rated highly because the kind of people who DO want those things play BLM and are the only people who seemed to have participated in the BLM survey. People who didn't like BLM seem not to have been many of the respondents. They simply don't like it, so they don't play it, so they didn't respond to its section.

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You claim that not everyone likes those things, that's fair, it's not for everyone. You also assert that the healer role polls and the SMN poll are being attacked by people here who are hostile towards the game, this is unprovable, but let's take it at face value. You also assert that the majority of the BLM survey is done by people who love BLM.

Now, we can see that the BLM poll numbers are quite high, but if you go into the breakdown, you can see some votes of 1-4 across the 3 options. You can also see some votes that are a perfectly average score. So what's happening here? Is the BLM poll fully positively-biased or are there people who hate-vote on it like the healer polls? You can't have it both ways. If the BLM poll is as positively-biased as you say, then the average score would be a 9 because no one who loves a job would vote below an 8.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

This is why the Four Healers Model should be done, so that Healers have the same types of situation that Casters have with BLM existing.

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One loathed, one incompatible with raid design, one the top dev’s favourite child and the last both accessible and coherent but unable to do level cap content? Sounds about right.

Why don’t you care for blu healing? It has a focus on strong gcd heals and a variety of damage options.

Actually, why not just have another Blue Mage update in 7.1 that increases the level cap from 80 to 100, and once reaching level 100, you can unlock Unlimited BLU (Tank), Unlimited BLU (DPS), and Unlimited BLU (Healer). Each of this offers a preset selection of spells with revamped effects that make them balanced alongside the other jobs of that role and functions as a normal job. Each version of BLU reuses animations from the spellbook, but all the effects are adjusted to feel balanced, and healer BLU is basically a reskin of the current White Mage--a very surface-level healer with no real complexity, and no real skill ceiling, but good enough to get you through all instances of combat. Meanwhile White Mage is allowed to develop a more well-established skill ceiling.

Anyone who doesn't like how simple healer BLU is also has the more Red Mage level DPS BLU, or the Dark Knight level Tank BLU. Limited BLU still exists and can be played outside of normal content for things like FATEs, the challenge log, etc. But anyone who wants 1 button DPS spam can just play healer BLU.

Some examples of what that could look like as far as skills:

The True Blue Gauge:
- Every second, the True Blue Gauge increases by 1 to a maximum of 100. when the True Blue Gauge is 20 or higher, casting any healing spell consumes 20 gauge and grants a charge of True Blue, allowing 1 use of Saintly Beam.

DPS Abilities
Water Cannon: 340 potency single target damage
Song of Torment: 80 potency single target DoT
Quasar: 180 potency AoE DPS
Stotram: OGCD 300 potency AoE DPS button that restores HP nearby party members, and restores MP to yourself. 40 second cooldown.
Saintly Beam: 680 potency AoE DPS in a straight line; requires a charge of True Blue

Healing Actions
Pom Cure: 500 potency single target heal
Pom Cure II: 800 potency single target heal
Pom Medica: 400 potency AoE heal
Angel Whisper: Resurrect spell
Exuviation: 200 potency AoE heal + regen (larger radius than current)
White Wind: 200 potency AoE heal that additionally restores HP based on 50% of your current HP.
Angel's Snack: OGCD 90 second cooldown that restores an additional 200 potency to allies healed with Pom Medica, Exuviation, or White Wind.
Transfusion: Single target OGCD heal with a potency of 700 on a 60 second cooldown.
Gobskin: Single target OGCD barrier and 10% mitigation on 30 second cooldown with 2 charges.

Other Noteworthy Actions
Condensed Libra: OGCD effect, increases your True Blue Gauge by 20; 40 second cooldown.
Chirp: Stuns all nearby enemies for 4 seconds and increases own healing magic potency by 20%.
Eerie Soundwave: Reduces damage dealt by all nearby enemies by 10%.

Something like that as a starting point. Anyone who cannot stand the other healers having more DPS buttons can play the new BLU, and anyone who wants a more complex BLU can play BLU as a DPS or Tank. Everyone wins.

Best to stay on topic as a healer discussion on the rework.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fulminating

Why don’t you care for blu healing? It has a focus on strong gcd heals and a variety of damage options.

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Answered your own question there I think

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Something like that as a starting point. Anyone who cannot stand the other healers having more DPS buttons can play the new BLU, and anyone who wants a more complex BLU can play BLU as a DPS or Tank. Everyone wins.

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And the best part is, the alternative to this would also be 'an option': BLU is the highly technical, 'it has insane skillcap', PHD complexity healer, and WHM stays as the sleep inducing brain-off healer it currently is. Everyone wins (except the people who like WHM aesthetic and want actual gameplay)

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Originally Posted by Renathras

"It was the pugs and casuals that gave up with it" - but you just said you were "fairly casual". So did casuals give up, or were you not really casual?

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Read the very line of mine that you quoted perhaps? From there, read the rest of the comment too. Ta.

I quite clearly stated that we were a midcore group no? The FC overall was casual, but it was large enough to field some groups that were absolutely a cut above casual. Even as a midcore group, we weren’t the most focused or optimised by any stretch though. It was first and foremost just a group of friends. We just happened to be fortunate enough to have consistent playtimes and a few really solid players that didn’t mind carrying.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aravell

...

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I didn't say people were attacking the Healer ones. My point was that more people are willing to answer the Healer ones (negatively) than go to the BLM ones to register a negative opinion about it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fulminating

One loathed, one incompatible with raid design, one the top dev’s favourite child and the last both accessible and coherent but unable to do level cap content? Sounds about right.

Why don’t you care for blu healing? It has a focus on strong gcd heals and a variety of damage options.

---

Quote:

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One brings shadow, one brings light
To this riddle all souls are tied
Brief our moments, brazen and bright
Forged in fury, tempered in ice

One brings shadow, one brings light
One more chapter we've yet to write
Want for nothing, nothing denied
Wand'ring ended, futures aligned
One brings shadow, one brings light

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:)

They all work, it more comes down to what's optimal. And everyone should remember the phrase: One man's trash is another man's treasure.

Many people wouldn't loathe it at all, and at this point, it's borderline impossible to not be compatible with raid design. It more comes down to how much people want to fuss about ~2-3% dps. Many groups do, but then again, there are absolutely raid groups that take whatever they have and don't care at all.

As for BLU healing:

Do much DPS focus. A majority of your buttons are for dealing damage. At that point, I may as well just run a DPS BLU in a 1T/7DPS setup and everyone cast White Wind.

I like the healing kit okay, I don't like the DPS kit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Something like that as a starting point. Anyone who cannot stand the other healers having more DPS buttons can play the new BLU, and anyone who wants a more complex BLU can play BLU as a DPS or Tank. Everyone wins.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

And the best part is, the alternative to this would also be 'an option': BLU is the highly technical, 'it has insane skillcap', PHD complexity healer, and WHM stays as the sleep inducing brain-off healer it currently is. Everyone wins (except the people who like WHM aesthetic and want actual gameplay)

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"Four Healer Model", "Five Healer Model"; same thing. This is literally what I pitch all the time.

Like, this is literally what I pitch ALL THE TIME. Normally, my version is "SGE has a DPS rotation, SCH has more DoTs, AST has more buff focus, and WHM stays the same" and under that idea, SGE and/or SCH would take the place of your BLU Healer here. But it's honestly just two ways of getting the same result. Hell, we could do them BOTH.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Osmond

Best to stay on topic as a healer discussion on the rework.

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Could be nice. But I'm not sure this discussion is bad, per se.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Renathras

"Four Healer Model", "Five Healer Model"; same thing. This is literally what I pitch all the time.

Like, this is literally what I pitch ALL THE TIME. Normally, my version is "SGE has a DPS rotation, SCH has more DoTs, AST has more buff focus, and WHM stays the same" and under that idea, SGE and/or SCH would take the place of your BLU Healer here. But it's honestly just two ways of getting the same result. Hell, we could do them BOTH.

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The key difference with the BLU suggestion I made is that someone who is interested in BLU is not restricted to the 1-button DPS dilemma. They can switch to DPS BLU or Tank BLU which would have far more diverse offensive libraries.

The problem with doing that to WHM is that there is no option for someone who likes WHM but wants to engage with rotational gameplay like every other job. They are subjected to the kitty pen. If we must have a kitty pen, I want every job to have the option to step out of it.

Or, instead of BLU. Make it CNJ. It's an asset that exists in the game, so why not use it? CNJ can equip all the same things as WHM, and has mostly the same abilities, but instead of getting new DPS buttons, it just gets a trait that increases Glare's potency. WHM instead gets a different DPS action instead of that trait.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Or, instead of BLU. Make it CNJ. It's an asset that exists in the game, so why not use it? CNJ can equip all the same things as WHM, and has mostly the same abilities, but instead of getting new DPS buttons, it just gets a trait that increases Glare's potency. WHM instead gets a different DPS action instead of that trait.

---

There was a guy who I saw in Praetorium one time who was 89 CNJ, and was going to hit 90 because of the run. They claimed that they had not been walled by any content so far, and that Medica/Cure2 was enough to keep up with all the healing requirements. Of course, I tried to explain that 'burdening your cohealer by lacking over half of your kit' is not great in a cooperative game, but the other people in the party said 'who cares theyre having fun' and such so... I guess that's the player SE designs around?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

The key difference with the BLU suggestion I made is that someone who is interested in BLU is not restricted to the 1-button DPS dilemma. They can switch to DPS BLU or Tank BLU which would have far more diverse offensive libraries.

The problem with doing that to WHM is that there is no option for someone who likes WHM but wants to engage with rotational gameplay like every other job. They are subjected to the kitty pen. If we must have a kitty pen, I want every job to have the option to step out of it.

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Pretty much this. WHM's identity as a healer should be on its healing style of being a straightforward and easy to heal with healer in comparison to its competitors:

- less buffing management
- no pet
- few to no regens
- no way of healing by doing damage

Basically an easy to pick up healer that doesn't have a mechanic or several to manage ON TOP of healing.

It should NOT be a healer defined by having 1 DoT and a Nuke with Misery on the side. And no Assize does not and will never count. I don't count ES as a dps tool and I don't know why anyone else does either.

When it comes to damage it should be just as straight forward and easy to pick up as its healing counter part.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

The key difference with the BLU suggestion I made is that someone who is interested in BLU is not restricted to the 1-button DPS dilemma. They can switch to DPS BLU or Tank BLU which would have far more diverse offensive libraries.

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It has 5 DPS abilities, not 1, though?

My point was if we did do something like:

Quote:

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"Give SCH players 2 DoTs, make one of them a Hardcast, and give them Tri-Disaster and make Aetherflow reset the cooldown of said Tri-Disaster. Let WHM stay exactly the same so that we can meme on it for being the baby healer. Bring back Nocturnal AST. Bring back AOE DoTs. And make SGE have some wack-a-- over complicated DPS rotation that baffles people's minds...and see if they embrace it or not.

If someone complains that they need to be rewarded with more DPS for their complicated Job; simply tell them that the reward is being able to have fun, and not being bored out of their ----ing minds. Shut the ---- up about a whole 2% DPS variance."

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[Credit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbWubxOTUWU ]

...then that would fix this problem because SCH and SGE would already fit that bill.

.

Honestly, I HAVE thought of the CNJ thing before. Also that ACN should split into both SMN and Evoker (Evoker should be New SMN, SMN should be Old SMN. Though I guess they could reverse those...) [oh, and also make a simple GEO to branch off CNJ so CNJ/WHM/GEO could be "the baby healer/dps" one]. If we had a slight bit more flexibility and creativity...but the Devs seem to kind of want to pretend 1.0 and the Class system never existed at this point. But having one be the GCD Healer with a simple rotation and the other being more complex would be a possible solution, though they'd have to change how Traits work, otherwise WHM would still inherit the CNJ Trait that ups the Stone damage.

There are plenty of ways to deal with the problem, it's just doing it.

Either way, it would fall under the "Four/Five/Six Healers Model", no matter what number we use. That's 100% the very argument I've been pushing all this time.

I'm...glad you're coming around to it, I guess? /shrug

And I don't mean THAT facetiously. If you actually do kind of agree with me on that, great. My version is actually more extensive than yours (since it wouldn't be JUST BLU Healer for players that want more DPS rotation, it would also include SCH and SGE, and AST would have a more buff focused gameplay to draw away from its GCD Malificspam), but it's the same/close enough general position we should be able to dovetail.

Quote:

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"Give SCH players 2 DoTs, make one of them a Hardcast, and give them Tri-Disaster and make Aetherflow reset the cooldown of said Tri-Disaster. Let WHM stay exactly the same so that we can meme on it for being the baby healer. Bring back Nocturnal AST. Bring back AOE DoTs. And make SGE have some wack-a-- over complicated DPS rotation that baffles people's minds...and see if they embrace it or not.

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This is the part people take issue with. We don't need THAT part of Stormblood design back.

Unless you want to be locked out of PFs by every Tom Dick and Harry for playing the job you like? Being forced to play a 'proper, not baby' job you're not as much a fan of the aesthetic of? Or would this not be an issue, because DF doesn't care what healer you are or what the playerbase thinks, and so you can clear the EX roulette just fine

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Renathras

It has 5 DPS abilities, not 1, though?

...

I'm...glad you're coming around to it, I guess? /shrug

---

I mean, we can make it 1 if you'd prefer. It wouldn't have any way to AoE, or have any DPS refund attached, but Water Cannon all the way if that's what you'd rather have. I just assumed you'd want an equivalent of Holy, Assize, and Afflatus Misery at the least equipped with it being triggerable by any healing GCD. Song of Torment is there because Dia, but we can axe that too if you'd rather.

The difference between what you suggest and what I suggest is your suggestion was previously about having 1 healer (WHM) remain as a bare-minimum DPS healer while the other 3 get the offensive expansion that many of the rest of us here are looking for, but that means anyone who likes the aesthetic of WHM is restricted to that style of gameplay, which I don't agree with. Both my suggestions for BLU and for CNJ are more like easy mode branches of jobs that someone can opt out of. CNJ and WHM would have all the same things except CNJ would just have Glare III, Holy III, and maybe Afflatus Misery (all with higher potencies to compensate) WHM would have weaker versions of those plus several more offensive spells to create that gameplay factor the rest of us have been asking for.

But if that's fine with you, then great. CNJ or healer BLU becomes the minimum DPS healer, and WHM, SCH, AST, and SGE move on from that point.

Wait what?

No, that makes no sense.

I thought you were suggesting BLU for your complex Healer.

I also think you consistently don't understand something:

If a change that leaves WHM alone hurts a portion of the community who DO want a damage suit but like WHM's aesthetic, then changing any OR ALL of the healers to have a more complex overall damage suit hurts EVERYONE who doesn't want that. Saying "people don't have to engage with it" doesn't change it's still there, on their Jobs, and still affects their gameplay experience. You may say it doesn't, but it does. No amount of you (who want it) saying it won't bother the people who don't want it changes the fact that, to the people who don't want it, it does bother them.

So if that's a valid argument for insisting WHM change, too, then it's also a valid argument for insisting ALL Healers DO NOT change.

Since it's an argument that supports both sides simultaneously - and yes, it does - you can't use it to support your position since I could just as easily point out a lot of people like SGE because of its simplicity who would be upset at no longer having access to the SGE aesthetic with the simplistic damage suite. So you cannot use that as support for your position.

.

So setting that side:

BLU as the minimum DPS Healer makes no sense from a logical perspective. WHM makes far far FAR more. I've discussed this with WHM vs SCH/AST/SGE before, but we can add BLU to the mix now.

We'll start with your unlock requirement, which was to get BLU to level 100 - which takes at least SOME effort. Sure, you CAN have a friend powerlevel you, but we're talking "the easy player" here, and they likely aren't going to know how to do that or engage with the content in that way, meaning they have to level it from level 1 to cap on their own without the benefit of instance ques. In other words, it's not friendly to "Timmy Casual".

After that, to get BLU to that level and unlock "Unlimited BLU" means they probably had to go collecting spells, which isn't HARD, but it's not trivial, and most people are going to have to consult guides and such out of game, which, again, "Timmy Casual" isn't prone to doing.

Finally, because players who WANT a complex rotation already LIKE BLU Healer as it is, and so would like a derivation of that in Unlimited form. BLU, even Heal spec BLU, has an expansive DPS suite but a slim healing one. (Seriously, some Tanks come close to having as many healing buttons as BLU Healer does now!) It's robbing Jonny Hardcore of a BLU Tank, BLU DPS, and BLU Healer that he would prefer having right now anyway. So it's not only antithetical because Timmy Casual isn't the one leveling and unlocking it, but BLU is also tailor made for the Jonny Hardcore as it is. Even in a more limited "Unlimited" form, Jonny Hardcore would salivate at the options of having a Tank that doesn't work like regular Tanks or a Healer with an expansive and thematic DPS and Support suite.

So from both sides, it makes no sense for BLU to be the simple DPS Healer on any level. It makes less sense for BLU to be that than...honestly any other Healer. The only one that, in lore and aesthetic, MIGHT make sense to be more complex in its damage kit would be...MAYbe SCH? SGE makes some sense in the lore, but the unlock is kind of hit or miss (some schools of thought might suggest it should be the easy one since it's easy to unlock for alts, but I kind of disagree with that, personally; SCH being easier makes sense if you pair it with SMN and say "these are for people that like uncomplicated Jobs").

But even that's iffy.

BLU's much more of a RDM-like "jack of all trades", just with even more off the wall and thematically unique abilities, and that would be the identity to shoot for with it if it was given an "Unlimited" version.

But contrasting each of these points: WHM starts at level 1 and can be leveled through the normal process, and can even be a person's Class/Job when first entering the game. It's easy and straightforward to level. It has a simple and straightforward damage (and healing) kit, matching its history through the Final Fantasy series. It doesn't have customization or branching paths for hardcore players to min-max, and it doesn't appeal to the playertype who is really into that like BLU does.

There's no world where it makes logical sense to have BLU as the simple Healer and WHM as the complex one. That doesn't even make sense to me, even if BLU was somehow "the non-complex one" for Healing, Damage, and Tanking as a one-stop-shop for people that like simplistic gameplay. It just doesn't make any sense thematically, via lore, via history (franchise history or metagame history) at all.

.

CNJ is an interesting idea, though it would require changing how they do Jobs and Classes entirely, and likey making another Job stone for it. It's just the way the game systems work right now. If it had a Stone+ Trait, WHM would also get it, meaning WHM's Glarespam would be as strong as everyone else's damage rotation, and WHM doing its rotation correctly would be doing 25-50% more damage than all the other Healers, which probably isn't what you're going for. A WHM doing 15% of a bosses health might be a BIT too much, I think you'd agree. So it would have to have a Job stone, meaning it would have to be given a separate JOB.

We'd have to add a new Job, maybe Druid or Geomancer (as a Healer - the in-game GEO's use WHM Wands as it is). But then we'd have this same problem again - all of you complaining that you like the Druid/GEO aesthetic but it has a simple damage rotation and how that's unfun and unfair to you guys. All the people right now complaining WHM doesn't have the earth/wind/water elements would be pissed if Druid/GEO got them and we'd still have this exact same complaint. So while they COULD arguably lock Druid/GEO as a Level 50 CNJ with just boosted ability power to keep it competitive with WHM, not only would they probably never do that in a million years, even if they did it, the people demanding complex DPS of every Healer aesthetic would STILL complain about it.

Indeed, if you're "willing to give" CNJ and BLU, that seems rather...well, CNJ is you giving up nothing (since you get to keep WHM) and BLU is you giving up nothing (since it isn't available now), while people in the camp opposed to you have to give up SCH, AST, and SGE to you, and get nothing from you except WHM without Holy spells - the aesthetic they currently enjoy. So in no way is that a fair solution to, honestly, anyone. But it also doesn't...work.


[For the record, what this would look like is a Job that has Cure 1, 2, Medica 1, 2, Stone 2, Aero 2, Raise, and the Job actions of Esuna, Repose, Swiftcast, Surecast, Lucid Dreaming, and Rescue. While an interesting thought experiment, I doubt this would work in any realistic sense. They don't even have an AOE attack or any instant casts other than Aero 2. Needless to say, this wouldn't appeal to people who like WHM as it exists RIGHT NOW at all.]

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I've given you the reasons why WHM staying as it is makes the most sense. And while you've tried to come up with any number of ways to get around this, the one thing you've never truly done is acknowledge it.

IF WE WERE going to leave one alone, WHM is the logical choice.

CNJ would be if and only if we had another branching Job from it or they completely changed how the Class system worked (which they COULD, mind you, but then we'd also be talking about MRDs and ROGs and the like - something I would personally love, but we both know isn't happening). And BLU makes no sense at all.

And if we AREN'T, then you have to defend why harming people that like WHM, SCH, AST, and SGE aesthetic not being allowed to enjoy their Jobs anymore and having exactly zero ways to escape the change ("not engaging with, you're just bad now" doesn't cut it) is acceptable. Because it is not, in fact, acceptable to rob people of those Jobs they like the aesthetic of - your argument, not mine.

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EDIT:

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Unless you want to be locked out of PFs by every Tom Dick and Harry for playing the job you like? Being forced to play a 'proper, not baby' job you're not as much a fan of the aesthetic of? Or would this not be an issue, because DF doesn't care what healer you are or what the playerbase thinks, and so you can clear the EX roulette just fine

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Wouldn't be.

He didn't say "make WHM unviable". If you watch the whole video, he points out several times how things aren't optimal but are viable, and even fun - Noctural AST, for example - to the people who played and enjoyed them. WHM staying as it is now means it would keep the Potencies it has now relative to the other Healers. Meaning it wouldn't be locked out of content. Moreover, you'd have the "too hard to play well" issue with the other Healers, meaning it's far less likely WHM would be the one locked out, since PF groups would more often think that WHM is the reliable one. It's like how SMN, despite being the "braindead baby DPS" isn't locked out of PF groups because people know it can consistently do more DPS than RDM and sometimes BLM if in the hands of an average or below average player, so people aren't locking them out because they bring a certain guarantee of "At least we'll be getting X level of basic performance out of it, which is sufficient to clear content."

ACN has actions unavailable to SCH, so CNJ can absolutely also have actions unavailable to WHM.

It’s a change that could literally be done in minutes. With the job stone, you are WHM, and you have an appropriate DPS rotation. With CNJ, the literal only thing that changes is anytime a DPS action is gained on WHM, CNJ instead has a trait that increases the damage potency of their Glare/Holy/Misery.

The only thing that would require investment is reworking WHM, but the following CNJ changes are seconds of effectively copying data over. That way you have your button mashing healer and an alternative for anyone that likes WHM but wants to engage with the combat model.

WHM needs a rework for the simple reason that it's bland and flavorless.

AST has flavor: cards, stars, time. SCH has flavor: fairy, a tool for every occasion. WHM has... ye olde generic HP restoration in spades, which is less a flavor and more a minimal expectation of a "healer."

FFXIV WHM is what you get when you take FFIV's Rosa and remove her unique weaponskill, remove most every spell related to buffs/debuffs/status effects, remove the super-charged version of Raise, remove the ability to use healing spells to deal damage, and then give nothing in return. FFXIV WHM has less variety than the original white mage/wizard.

Long

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Originally Posted by Renathras

I also think you consistently don't understand something:

If a change that leaves WHM alone hurts a portion of the community who DO want a damage suit but like WHM's aesthetic, then changing any OR ALL of the healers to have a more complex overall damage suit hurts EVERYONE who doesn't want that. Saying "people don't have to engage with it" doesn't change it's still there, on their Jobs, and still affects their gameplay experience. You may say it doesn't, but it does. No amount of you (who want it) saying it won't bother the people who don't want it changes the fact that, to the people who don't want it, it does bother them.

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Once again, back to World of Warcraft. Blessing of Seasons talent gives Holy Paladin a button that, every 45s, allows them to give an ally a buff, rotating in sequence through four effects. More damage, faster CDs, MP restore, Healing given and taken both increased. If they don't want that gameplay, they don't take that talent. They'll still clear most of the content in the game without it. It's only Mythic Raiding and megahigh M+ keys where metaslaving is important, and at those points, players are likely swapping their class entirely if necessary if it's advantageous for the group. Havoc DH can take Momentum, a talent that makes Vengeful Retreat (Yaten) grant Fury over time, and Fel Rush (more En Avant than Gyoten) to grant a short % damage buff. If people don't like getting launched all over the place, they don't have to use that talent. They can still clear most content. Same for other classes and their talent choices, you only run into 'damn I need to use this specific build' at super high content levels. Content beyond the skill level of you or I.

People want to keep Energy Drain even though it's now down to 100p. Clearly it doesn't matter how much of a difference an 'optimization tool' is in the grand scheme, what matters is that it exists. So if you do something like what I suggested, all those months ago, and balance the potencies in such a way, you can have 'spam Glare, refresh Dia when it falls off' at 98% of the effectiveness of 'actual full optimization'. And you can do the same with the other healers, give SCH 3 DOTs but have 'spam broil with no brain' give 90% of the efficiency of juggling those three DOTs. That way in most content, it doesn't matter if Timmy ignores the DOTs entirely, he still clears. It's only in content specifically designed to test the player's skill that they need to know how to actually play the game. And before you go 'ok well now the people who could clear cant anymore', you don't lose anything by clearing later. There's functionally no difference in reward between clearing on week 4 or week 14, beyond ego

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We'll start with your unlock requirement, which was to get BLU to level 100 - which takes at least SOME effort. Sure, you CAN have a friend powerlevel you, but we're talking "the easy player" here, and they likely aren't going to know how to do that or engage with the content in that way, meaning they have to level it from level 1 to cap on their own without the benefit of instance ques. In other words, it's not friendly to "Timmy Casual".

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Assuming you are using current, Limited form BLU to get to 100, yes, it would be friendly to Timmy. It still has the insane XP multiplier in the open world, it still has access to ridiculous abilities like Ultravibration, LVL Death, White Wind for selfsustain, they could rework 1000 Needles to 'Numerous Needles' so that it scales with your level if they really wanted. Actually, can that be the Holy equivalent Ty, thanks

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After that, to get BLU to that level and unlock "Unlimited BLU" means they probably had to go collecting spells, which isn't HARD, but it's not trivial, and most people are going to have to consult guides and such out of game, which, again, "Timmy Casual" isn't prone to doing.

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The game tells you where to find each of the spells. Not exact locations, but the zone they're in, or the dungeon they're in. No 'outside guide' is necessary, unless 'exact coordinates' is required for Timmy to find the mob. Spoonfeeding him the content is kinda par for the course though, and that's why people are asking for the changes they are

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There's no world where it makes logical sense to have BLU as the simple Healer and WHM as the complex one. That doesn't even make sense to me, even if BLU was somehow "the non-complex one" for Healing, Damage, and Tanking as a one-stop-shop for people that like simplistic gameplay. It just doesn't make any sense thematically, via lore, via history (franchise history or metagame history) at all.

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When I used BLU in older games like FFTA, for damage I used LVL death or Twister, and for healing I used White Wind. Most other stuff I ignored. Sounds pretty 'noncomplex' to me

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CNJ is an interesting idea, though it would require changing how they do Jobs and Classes entirely, and likey making another Job stone for it. It's just the way the game systems work right now. If it had a Stone+ Trait, WHM would also get it, meaning WHM's Glarespam would be as strong as everyone else's damage rotation, and WHM doing its rotation correctly would be doing 25-50% more damage than all the other Healers, which probably isn't what you're going for. A WHM doing 15% of a bosses health might be a BIT too much, I think you'd agree. So it would have to have a Job stone, meaning it would have to be given a separate JOB.

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Been a while since I programmed, but I assume there's a way to detect this stuff and conditionally activate it based on certain criteria. BLU skills have modifiers based on if the BLU is Tank/Heal/DPS Mimic'd. They have Basic Instinct which only works when they are A: in content that is usually tackled by a group, and B: the only living party member in the group. The CNJ only quest to get the Unicorn mount, which may have been fixed now but it used to ask specifically for CNJ. It could, for all we know, literally be as simple as having an if-else statement that says 'if player is WHM, disable trait'

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Indeed, if you're "willing to give" CNJ and BLU, that seems rather...well, CNJ is you giving up nothing (since you get to keep WHM) and BLU is you giving up nothing (since it isn't available now), while people in the camp opposed to you have to give up SCH, AST, and SGE to you, and get nothing from you except WHM without Holy spells - the aesthetic they currently enjoy. So in no way is that a fair solution to, honestly, anyone. But it also doesn't...work.

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Isn't this the ideal solution, though? CNJ being useable as 'another option to heal with' gives the 'I want simple DPS' crowd an option, gives the 'I want WHM to have a skillcap' crowd a skillcap to aim for, who loses out here? Unless you're shifting from 'I want a healer to keep simple gameplay' to 'I want the healer of my choice to keep simple gameplay due to me enjoying the aesthetics' which, as we're well aware, isn't really defensible because it wouldn't be up to any of us which healer it is that keeps that simple gameplay. For all we know, AST might be the only healer to keep 'one button one dot' gameplay, justified by SE as 'well its got cards to worry about', and the other three become PHD in engineering level complex.

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Wouldn't be.

He didn't say "make WHM unviable". If you watch the whole video, he points out several times how things aren't optimal but are viable, and even fun - Noctural AST, for example - to the people who played and enjoyed them. WHM staying as it is now means it would keep the Potencies it has now relative to the other Healers. Meaning it wouldn't be locked out of content.

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WHM was viable in SB. MCH was 'viable' in 6.2 (I know of someone who cleared the raid on it day 4). DRK was viable in SB, even getting BOTH ultimate worldfirsts. None of this matters because the average goon in PF doesn't care about the definition of 'viable'. What they think 'viable' means is 'what is part of the absolute best comp that I heard about from my favorite strummer'. Moreover, the class would gain a reputation for being the 'bad player magnet'. You played WOW, you know about the stigma Hunters STILL have. You know about 'lol DRG' memes despite Jump animation locks being fixed for several years now. You can't accurately predict 'no no they'll let WHM do the hard content too!' when we have evidence that word of mouth singlehandedly shapes metas and PF landscapes for months at a time. You can make the prediction, but what I am saying is backed up by precedent

Just, as a reminder, the thread title is 'Thread: The Healers should be reworked? New player perspective.' And is about a player coming from another MMO, and finding the levelling process of the healers dull as dishwater. IDK where the idea that 'WHM is simple and fun' came from, but I'd say it's about half right, it's definitely got the Simple part nailed down. It's really designed to be 'baby's first MMO', but unlike the levelling process of the competitor MMOs on the market, it doesn't ever take the training wheels off

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

ACN has actions unavailable to SCH, so CNJ can absolutely also have actions unavailable to WHM.

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Hm, that's actually a good point. They did divorce SCH from it. But keep in mind that SCH is a separate JOB, not the base CLASS. What you're arguing for would be like if ACN had Actions and Traits that SUMMONER did not inherit.

So we've established it CAN'T be CNJ. It would need to be a Job. So, I guess this means we need a new Job stone. So let's say we add Druid or Geomancer to the game. We give the kit WHM has now, and it splits off from CNJ at level 30. The exact kit WHM has now. Then we give WHM Tornado/Quake/whatever and some random 13 sec duration DoT for the hell of it.

What happens next? Won't you guys all complain that YOU want to play Geomander/Druid and how upsetting it is that YOU can't play the Job with the aesthetic that YOU want? Won't we be in this exact same situation a second time?

And, at this point, why not leave WHM alone - since we're copying all of its abilities anyway - and make the NEW Job this thing you want WHM to be instead? Hell, GEO/Druid would make more sense as the Job with Quake/Tornado/Flood, anyway.

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

WHM needs a rework for the simple reason that it's bland and flavorless.

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Not at all. WHM is the most fun of the Healers right now and has a ton of flavor. It has Holy element spells where the others have random non-elemental (SCH), random non-elemental (AST), and laser (SGE). It has powerful direct heals, and the rotation and healing efficiency revolves around the Lily system. And it has Holy, one of the most iconic Healer abilities in the game. It's neither bland nor is it flavorless.

FFXIV WHM is what you get when you take FF Tactics WHM and add a slate of attack spells, ability modifiers, barriers/mitigations, and extra efficient versions of its staple regular heals.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

So we've established it CAN'T be CNJ. It would need to be a Job. So, I guess this means we need a new Job stone. So let's say we add Druid or Geomancer to the game. We give the kit WHM has now, and it splits off from CNJ at level 30. The exact kit WHM has now. Then we give WHM Tornado/Quake/whatever and some random 13 sec duration DoT for the hell of it.

What happens next? Won't you guys all complain that YOU want to play Geomander/Druid and how upsetting it is that YOU can't play the Job with the aesthetic that YOU want? Won't we be in this exact same situation a second time?

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"We" have not established anything in regards to CNJ. You have declared that stance as fact. I don't care if there isn't a branching job off CNJ. My point is, rather than investing the resources needed to create an entirely new healer which retains the problem I'm trying to resolve of enforcing a bare-minimum DPS filler on anyone who likes that new job's design or visual identity, we can instead use an already existing resource to create a proxy job for anyone who has an allergy to DPS.

The point of suggesting that we use CNJ as this bare-minimum DPS healer is that anyone who likes CNJ/WHM is given the option to have more in their gameplay. There is no difference between the two beyond if they have 1 filler, 1 AoE, and 1 refund button, or actually fleshed out DPS gameplay other than one would have a lower DPS maximum, but a higher DPS minimum and vice versa. It's also extremely economic since it requires a very minor amount of work to accomplish.

I don't care if it hasn't been done before. Sometimes you do new things to resolve a problem. If we must have a minimum DPS healer to appease a chunk of players who would otherwise be unwilling to tolerate additional DPS gameplay on the remaining healers, then that is a solution that could quite literally be done in minutes. You get what you want, everyone else gets what they want. Why complicate it with trying to introduce Druid or Geomancer instead?

Idk im happy with how sage is currently, it just needs a few tweaks and in the future more skills to further differentiate it from its counterpart.

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Originally Posted by Elucesta

Idk im happy with how sage is currently, it just needs a few tweaks and in the future more skills to further differentiate it from its counterpart.

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Agreed. I like WHM and SGE right now. I like SCH okay, too. I don't play AST much, but honestly I'm moderately okay with it other than it has too much busywork.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

"We" have not established anything

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Yes, "We", have.

Your one example of how this is possible uses a Job stone.

All modern additions to the game are with a Job stone.

There's literally no reason NOT to do this with a Job stone (save one, which I'll get to...)

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I don't care if there isn't a branching job off CNJ.

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YOU don't. _I_ do.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

My point is, rather than investing the resources needed to create an entirely new healer...

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I know what's going on here, but you won't accept it if I tell you. Here's the short version:

You're like a kid who hordes all his toys when playing with friends at his house, and is only willing to share the action figure he doesn't like anyway that has a broken off arm if the other kid cries enough and your mom makes you share. It's immature and it's selfish. It's why you won't let people have WHM as it is (despite always being the simple Healer AND being the logical choice for the easy one) and you won't let them have SGE, either (despite it only existing in this model and under this form) - because you want them both. You're only VAGUELY "willing" to "share" the WHM with the broken arm that you don't like anyway, CNJ.

So much so you oppose the creation of Druid or Geomancer - a new Job - having WHM's current kit because that would be A JOB which YOU don't own and are having to share, which you desperately don't want to do. How dare there be a Healing Job that doesn't comport to your system, you protest, while insisting giving the armless WHM is "good enough".

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

The point of suggesting that we use CNJ as this bare-minimum DPS healer is that anyone who likes CNJ/WHM is given the option to have more in their gameplay.

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Which they'd get if it was Druid or Geomancer. OR if it was WHM and DRU/GEO was the one one that Yoshi P took your WHM rework idea and made THAT Job into it instead. What's the downside of the people with the simple kit having a JOB instead of a CLASS, exactly?

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

It's also extremely economic since it requires a very minor amount of work to accomplish.

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You know what would be even more extremely economic?

Leaving WHM as it is right now and adding GEO/DRU as what you want WHM to be.

Your proposal, while you insist it's little work, is actually MORE work than adding a new Job. Because they'd have to (a) rework the Class system to have Traits that are not inherited by the Job that comes from it (something that doesn't exist currently; SCH, in the game code, is basically like AST, a stand alone Job without a Class, at this point), (b) they'd then have to copy ALL the current WHM abilities to this new "Class", (c) they'd have to alter the game's matchmaking system to allow Classes to que up in things that don't right now, but ONLY for CNJ, (d) then they'd have to rework the WHM Job entirely, basically creating a new Job out of it like SMN.

How is that less work than "Leave WHM alone and then do (d) as a branching Job"? That's FAR more economical.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Sometimes you do new things to resolve a problem.

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Like adding a new branching Job to an existing Class? That would be a new thing.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

then that is a solution that could quite literally be done in minutes.

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Know what could be done in even less minutes?

Leaving WHM as it is right now and adding GEO/DRU as what you want WHM to be.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

You get what you want, everyone else gets what they want.

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NO!

I DON'T get what I want.

YOU get what YOU want and I get what you're barely even willing to give me, even though it would require far more work to do what you propose than just adding a new Job for your WHM idea and leaving WHM alone OR adding a new Job to CNJ, copying WHM's abilities to that, and then changing WHM. Either of those would still be less work than what you've proposed.

You clearly don't know what I want, and don't care, but no, your proposal isn't what I want. It's what YOU want.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Why complicate it with trying to introduce Druid or Geomancer instead?

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Because that's not COMPLICATING it. That's the SIMPLER solution.

Your solution would require new coding. It would require the community to see a Class - but ONLY one Class - as equal to Jobs. It would require change to the game's backend to accomplish.

That's not the simpler solution.

What's happening here is this:

I was right.

You don't want to share. You want every Healing Job to be one that YOU want with YOUR style of play. The only case you're willing to "give up" is one that you feel you aren't sacrificing anything because (a) CNJ isn't a Healer Job right now and (b) you having WHM means you aren't giving anything up.

"To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. Equivalent Exchange." It's not just Alchemy's one and only truth from a cartoon in a fictional universe, it's also the art of compromise. You give up something and you get something in return.

Your "compromise" here is that you give up nothing and get everything you want.

And the idea of GEO or DRU going to the simple players OR you getting those but WHM going to the simple players would mean you giving up something.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

But then we'd have this same problem again - all of you complaining that you like the Druid/GEO aesthetic but it has a simple damage rotation and how that's unfun and unfair to you guys. All the people right now complaining WHM doesn't have the earth/wind/water elements would be pissed if Druid/GEO got them and we'd still have this exact same complaint. So while they COULD arguably lock Druid/GEO as a Level 50 CNJ with just boosted ability power to keep it competitive with WHM, not only would they probably never do that in a million years, even if they did it, the people demanding complex DPS of every Healer aesthetic would STILL complain about it.

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Let's be real: THIS is what's going on here.

Admit it, don't admit it, it's the only reason to go through your tortured proposal rather than just adding a new Job for your WHM rework and leaving WHM alone, or adding a branching Job to CNJ that is WHM now (though that's still stupid since that'd be more work than just adding the new Job and giving it your WHM ideas as its rotation.)

I'm not trying to be antagonistic on this, I'm really not, but given what you have said in the past about SGE and your statements here, it's clear this is what's going on: You don't want to share, and the only way you're willing to share is if mom forces you to, and then only if you're giving up the broken toy you don't even like anyway.

I think we both know this - you're smart enough to know it, if you'd be willing to admit it to yourself - though I doubt your ability to admit it to yourself. Either way, that's the answer:

Add DRU or GEO as branching off CNJ.

Either give DRU/GEO WHM's rotation and then change WHM, or leave WHM alone and give DRU/GEO the rotation you want to change WHM's to.

Done.

Easiest fix possible. (Well, short of just leaving everything alone, anyway...)

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Yes, "We", have.

Your one example of how this is possible uses a Job stone.

All modern additions to the game are with a Job stone.

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So change that. It's not written on the rosetta stone that a class can function horizontally to the jobs. That's just how it's been handled. Impossible is adding in a real-time first person shooter segment to a fight.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

You don't want to share, and the only way you're willing to share is if mom forces you to, and then only if you're giving up the broken toy you don't even like anyway.

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You are the one that doesn't want to share WHM. You are the one arguing that it's your way or the highway. The CNJ suggestion is literally about making it specifically so that everyone has it their way.

Can you explain to me how 'Two versions of the same job, one with additional DPS buttons and one without, where all other abilities are the same across both' is being selfish, and how 'Leave my job alone. This is the way that I want it, and no one else is allowed to speak against that' is being selfless?