Want to know why tank is almost always the role in need?

Because it's intentionally skewed that way?

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Originally Posted by PredatoryCatgirl

Edit: Forget it. Too many people not even bothering to read what I write. Not checking this thread anymore.

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lol
/10char

The "in need" thing is a lie anyway. I've seen it be all tank in need. I queue as a tank. I sit there for several minutes. Hop over to healer instead. Tank is still in need. Queue as a healer. Instantly pops every time. That whole system is a joke.

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Originally Posted by Tint

It's still annoying and disrespectful.

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A slow tank is disrespectful to three others' time.

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Originally Posted by Tint

It's still annoying and disrespectful.

Plus it actually slows the run down. The tank needs longer to gather up all enemies so the group can't properly aoe them down and the healer has to use extra heals.

It's like saying you can stand in mechanics because with one heal the problem is solved (healer adjust).

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It takes all of a second to hit the mobs and doesn't matter if they auto a DPS or healer a few times. Dungeon trash does negligible damage. That "extra" healing is essentially one oGCD that would have sat on CD otherwise because, once again, mobs don't do anything. I can and have gone the entire dungeon pressing maybe five heals total. And no, it wasn't only with Warriors. I don't need to heal them at all in 90 dungeons.

As for standing in mechanics. That's actually another problem with a lot of the casual content. It does so little damage you can stand in stuff and you won't even need healing. Tanks can pretty much collect vuln stacks and it will never matter.

What Avoidy said is an interesting bit. One of my other FC members said he did manage to get on right after maintenance was done to see who would be the adventurer in need that time. It was always the tank even though we shouldn't see much queuing yet. It's probably just because they are in the top party slot or something like that. So if a couple roles are actually competing to be adventurer in need, it goes by the role in the highest top slot. It also takes a few minutes to refresh changes to who is in need too.

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Originally Posted by Tint

It's still annoying and disrespectful.

Plus it actually slows the run down. The tank needs longer to gather up all enemies so the group can't properly aoe them down and the healer has to use extra heals.

It's like saying you can stand in mechanics because with one heal the problem is solved (healer adjust).

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Ngl still wish tank had an enemy pull in skill for a role action, an aoe or single target either would be handly. Most of the work the work is already done too, they already exist as BLU skills...

Feels good to be a tank main and to get paid to play my job

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Originally Posted by Tint

It's still annoying and disrespectful.

Plus it actually slows the run down. The tank needs longer to gather up all enemies so the group can't properly aoe them down and the healer has to use extra heals.

It's like saying you can stand in mechanics because with one heal the problem is solved (healer adjust).

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This. All it takes is 2x aoe on each pack to keep aggro. I always double aoe the first pack I'm grabbing and I am almost never falling behind my party members unless the they are the type of people that sit there and wait at the nearest wall to speed ahead.

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Originally Posted by Hanayumi

Ngl still wish tank had an enemy pull in skill for a role action, an aoe or single target either would be handly. Most of the work the work is already done too, they already exist as BLU skills...

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IIRC, DRK's Salted Earth has this effect in PvP, it is more relevant there because players can just walk out of the muck where as mobs can easily be manipulated to stay in the muck, but it'd be nice to have it in normal gameplay.

Tho yeah, a Role Skill version of Hydro Pull would be the best route, I absolutely adore Hydro Pull when Fate Farming because it not only pulls enemies closer, but it will also interrupt their casts in the same way knockback would cancel a player's cast.

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Originally Posted by Avoidy

The "in need" thing is a lie anyway. I've seen it be all tank in need. I queue as a tank. I sit there for several minutes. Hop over to healer instead. Tank is still in need. Queue as a healer. Instantly pops every time. That whole system is a joke.

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I believe is because there are two issues with the system: A) it doesn't change immediately, and B) if two or more roles are needed, it will take a priority of Tank>Healer>DPS.

So if nobody is que'd for anything, the game will display Tank despite the fact all 3 roles are "in need", which causes an overflow of Tanks que'ing to take the bonus, and DPS are naturally numerous anyway, which means that Healers will get instapops, then In Need switches to Healer and all Tanks in que get processed, now assume there are some Healers que'd, but no Tanks and DPS... then the game displays Tank again!

This both makes Tanks extremely likely to be In Need, and DPS extremely unlikely to be, but the bottom line is that due to the trend of In Need causing the target role to overflow, it's a trap and you should actively go against it.

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Originally Posted by Tigore

What Avoidy said is an interesting bit. One of my other FC members said he did manage to get on right after maintenance was done to see who would be the adventurer in need that time. It was always the tank even though we shouldn't see much queuing yet. It's probably just because they are in the top party slot or something like that. So if a couple roles are actually competing to be adventurer in need, it goes by the role in the highest top slot. It also takes a few minutes to refresh changes to who is in need too.

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I suspect it's interface limitation. Something like "If all roles are equally in need, then pick X role."

Considering the duty finder window can only show 1 icon per roulette, they're probably putting tank icon as #1 prio. Just.. a maybe...

Personally I'm echo'ing those other people who also cited getting instant queues the moment they swap to healers...

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Originally Posted by Hanayumi

Ngl still wish tank had an enemy pull in skill for a role action, an aoe or single target either would be handly. Most of the work the work is already done too, they already exist as BLU skills...

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Tank AoE Hydro Pull would be pretty awesome

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Originally Posted by PredatoryCatgirl

Edit: Forget it. Too many people not even bothering to read what I write. Not checking this thread anymore.

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Ugh. You just have to accept that threads drift. You're in for a lot of headaches if you don't.

Moving onwards, to touch on the topic you deleted, I feel you are shooting yourself in the foot by reserving Sprint as a mitigation tool. As a tank, it's a given you must adapt to the challenges you face.

If some of those challenges are that characters kept running ahead of you and pulling mobs, the proper course of action is to start using Sprint to get ahead of the party and use your tanking abilities to grab aggro. It's not to run to the Forums then flip out when some people disagree with you.

There, I said my piece. Now, I'm going to enjoy this custom blend coffee I just brewed.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

A slow tank is disrespectful to three others' time.

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Not sure if I agree with that. Respect must be given to the tank too. There is this thing called "tank anxiety" where a lot of tanks are afraid they're going to mess up, myself included.

So, I have found the best course of action is two-step. The first is communication. The tank has to let the others know that they are uncomfortable with large pulls. The second is for the tank to be willing to go a bit out of their comfort zone. Instead of wall to wall pulls, pull two groups. The next pull, try three groups,etc...

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Tank AoE Hydro Pull would be pretty awesome

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WHOA! I didn't know how badly I wanted that ability until you mentioned it.

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

Now, I'm going to enjoy this custom blend coffee I just brewed.

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You can't just leave us hanging like that, Kacho! What's the blend?

It's funny that one of the first replies is talking about how the "general opinion" here is that tanks arn't in control of the timing of a run... but folks get that view from the troll threads. Either troll threads that turn into huge arguments that the trolls pretend to win, or troll threads that nobody challenges because it's recognized as a troll thread.

Perhaps tanks ARE in need because people are tired of other people pulling enough to wipe the tank. Surely the tank knows how good, or bad they are at mitigation. Ever see the posts on that other reddit, the one the trolls banned from places hang out? They complain the most about tank + healer teams, that are carefully pulling just exactly what the tank and healer know they can handle, and ignoring the DPS who try to start fights. If the tank knows how much they can mitigate, and the healer knows how much they can heal, they still want to be the DPS that controls the speed somehow?

Over here if you see the complaint, they try to not be quite so obvious about it, but it is almost always a DPS that is doing the complaining. You almost never see a healer saying "go ahead, pull more" and being ignored, and then complaining on the forum.

So yha, of course tanking isn't happening as much. When DPS think they can just grab as much as they want, pull it back to the tank, and wipe the party because the tank wasn't pulling more then they could handle... and then the tank gets the blame for not being good enough?

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

Ugh. You just have to accept that threads drift. You're in for a lot of headaches if you don't.

Moving onwards, to touch on the topic you deleted, I feel you are shooting yourself in the foot by reserving Sprint as a mitigation tool. As a tank, it's a given you must adapt to the challenges you face.

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The problem is: Sprint absolutely IS a mitigation tool but is far better served being used between packs. Because every second mobs aren't hitting you is mitigation. There isn't any AoE that can't be avoided with standard running.

If the DPS want to pull more for me that's fine. They can help out but alternating their Arms Length to get that sweet slow on every single set of mobs.

Of course I tend to wall to wall anyway but hey if they want to lead it ill allow it if they at least do that one thing for me. You got bloodbath/second wind. Clean yourself a bit after I take those slowed down mobs from ya.

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Originally Posted by Chie_M

You can't just leave us hanging like that, Kacho! What's the blend?

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Hi Chie! It's a mix of Ethiopian, Indian Monsoon, and Columbian. I made it up out of leftover beans. It worked out deliciously! It's somewhat dark but doesn't linger on the tongue.

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Originally Posted by ICountFrom0

It's funny that one of the first replies is talking about how the "general opinion" here is that tanks aren't in control of the timing of a run... but folks get that view from the troll threads. Either troll threads that turn into huge arguments that the trolls pretend to win, or troll threads that nobody challenges because it's recognized as a troll thread.

Perhaps tanks ARE in need because people are tired of other people pulling enough to wipe the tank. Surely the tank knows how good, or bad they are at mitigation. Ever see the posts on that other reddit, the one the trolls banned from places hang out? They complain the most about tank + healer teams, that are carefully pulling just exactly what the tank and healer know they can handle, and ignoring the DPS who try to start fights. If the tank knows how much they can mitigate, and the healer knows how much they can heal, they still want to be the DPS that controls the speed somehow?

Over here if you see the complaint, they try to not be quite so obvious about it, but it is almost always a DPS that is doing the complaining. You almost never see a healer saying "go ahead, pull more" and being ignored, and then complaining on the forum.

So yha, of course tanking isn't happening as much. When DPS think they can just grab as much as they want, pull it back to the tank, and wipe the party because the tank wasn't pulling more than they could handle... and then the tank gets the blame for not being good enough?

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I really think a lot of this is overstated because of the need of some people to stir up drama. As for the shortage of tanks, it just comes down to the simple case that people prefer to tank with people they know. Furthermore, tanks, for better or worst, are seen as the leaders of the party. A lot of people don't want to have that responsibility placed on their shoulders in a game.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

The problem is: Sprint absolutely IS a mitigation tool but is far better served being used between packs. Because every second mobs aren't hitting you is mitigation. There isn't any AoE that can't be avoided with standard running.

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I guess I never realized Sprint is a mitigation tool. I always treated it as a means of getting through an instance faster. Learned something new. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

WHOA! I didn't know how badly I wanted that ability until you mentioned it.

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Me either until Hanayumi mentioned it.

Maybe Hydro Pull for tanks, Excuviation for healers (my kingdom SE for AoE Esuna), and Nightbloom for dps? Or one of the really cool primal AoE spells.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

The problem is: Sprint absolutely IS a mitigation tool but is far better served being used between packs. Because every second mobs aren't hitting you is mitigation. There isn't any AoE that can't be avoided with standard running.

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Probably a stupid question but bard have an ability to speed up the whole party (sorry name escapes me atm). Is that effective enough to be used instead of sprint for this sort of mitigation?

ie If you have a bard and they are using their ability liberally can a tank then save sprint for other things?

These are genuine questions not trolls.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

A slow tank is disrespectful to three others' time.

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I'm not playing video games with efficiency in mind, sorry. People can use PF if they want to speed run.

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Originally Posted by Myrany

Probably a stupid question but bard have an ability to speed up the whole party (sorry name escapes me atm). Is that effective enough to be used instead of sprint for this sort of mitigation?

ie If you have a bard and they are using their ability liberally can a tank then save sprint for other things?

These are genuine questions not trolls.

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Peloton (available to all the Phys ranged jobs) only applies when out of combat. The moment the player is on a creature's enmity list (as opposed to being hit by them), the effect is removed.

It's helpful getting to the next group of mobs faster after a boss dies but doesn't offer any advantage when it comes to mitigation.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

I'm not playing video games with efficiency in mind, sorry. People can use PF if they want to speed run.

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I'm playing video games with efficiency in mind, sorry. People can use PF if they want to stop and sniff every flower on the way.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Peloton (available to all the Phys ranged jobs) only applies when out of combat. The moment the player is on a creature's enmity list (as opposed to being hit by them), the effect is removed.

It's helpful getting to the next group of mobs faster after a boss dies but doesn't offer any advantage when it comes to mitigation.

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TY for the information.

Oh well it was a nice thought for a solution to the OPs dilemma

What are we fighting about today? I don’t have time to check the whole thread D:

It has a 2 way topic. The first one is discussing why tanks are always the adventurer in need. The original poster was proposing it was because it was the other healers and DPS rudely pulling for the tank. It became apparent that they use Sprint during combat instead of for dragging the first group to the second one for wall to wall pulls. There have been a few arguments about whether non-tanks should pull or not. Most would agree that an accidental face pull is easily forgiven and they must at the very least drag the enemies to the tank. Bonus points if the DPS uses cooldowns like Second Wind, Bloodbath, Arms Length, Leg Graze slows, stuns and interrupts so the healer doesn't have to stress on the unconventional events.

I have actually used the stun when there was a spell NPC refusing to move for one of the level 50 dungeons. I decided to take care of it for my FC tank by singling it out with Midare Setsugekkas near the end of the pull and kick stunning it to remove the damage they were doing to us. The NPC pretty much died in the middle of the stun. I might of done it sooner, but I was on the other side of the mob of enemies taking care of AoE damage at first.

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Originally Posted by Myrany

TY for the information.

Oh well it was a nice thought for a solution to the OPs dilemma

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SCH's EXPEDIENT ability on the other hand. . . *chef's kiss* sprint equivalent + mitigation.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

SCH's EXPEDIENT ability on the other hand. . . *chef's kiss* sprint equivalent + mitigation.

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True, but is it REALLY a capstone level 90 ability? Feels more like a level 50 ability... (can we PLEASE get it at level 50?)

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Originally Posted by ICountFrom0

True, but is it REALLY a capstone level 90 ability? Feels more like a level 50 ability... (can we PLEASE get it at level 50?)

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Expedient is so stupidly good as is that it had to be nerfed, and it is still amazing, it used to be 20 second movement buff but it was unreasonably long for combat, it's the biggest example of "boring but practical" in this game.

See also: Why I always carry Lost Impetus in CLL/Dal runs in Bozja, except when I am on Healer duty and I have Lost Cure IV instead.

My guess is that they needed a default when there is no one queueing (thus no adventurer in need). So they choose tank.
At least that's my experience. With healer, I gets an instant queue when it appears. With tank, I sometimes have to wait several minutes.

I also believe that when there is no one queueing a duty, they choose one at random so that there is no ridiculous wait. But their algo needs tweaking. I am sick tired of Crystal Tower on alliances raids.

I can agree with the algorithm needing work on some roulettes. Some of the others seems to always default to one even if everyone already did it.

Level 90 roulette - Dead Ends. Almost without fail.
Leveling Roulette - For me, Ghimlyt Dark and Kugane Castle popped up a lot compared to others. If it was the more recent ones, it was almost always Vanaspati.

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

Not sure if I agree with that. Respect must be given to the tank too. There is this thing called "tank anxiety" where a lot of tanks are afraid they're going to mess up, myself included.

So, I have found the best course of action is two-step. The first is communication. The tank has to let the others know that they are uncomfortable with large pulls. The second is for the tank to be willing to go a bit out of their comfort zone. Instead of wall to wall pulls, pull two groups. The next pull, try three groups,etc...

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Not directed AT you, but you replied to them lol, you know how it is...

I found the best way to deal with "tank anxiety" is friends.. especially if we are running someplace new.

if I am leveling my tanks, I rarely do roulettes because I am not dealing with people whose house is on fire.

if we are running something for the first time, especially new content, running with friends is also not going to inconvenience those same impatient people.

saves any anxiety and dealing with the people who speed run everything like its a contest, especially new content. sorry if taking your time and and actually experiencing and learning the place is considered "disrespectful" but the speed runners out there, but some people play a game to enjoy it.. weird huh?

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

Not directed AT you, but you replied to them lol, you know how it is...

I found the best way to deal with "tank anxiety" is friends.. especially if we are running someplace new.

if I am leveling my tanks, I rarely do roulettes because I am not dealing with people whose house is on fire.

if we are running something for the first time, especially new content, running with friends is also not going to inconvenience those same impatient people.

saves any anxiety and dealing with the people who speed run everything like its a contest, especially new content. sorry if taking your time and and actually experiencing and learning the place is considered "disrespectful" but the speed runners out there, but some people play a game to enjoy it.. weird huh?

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Please tell me you understand that people who want to double pull aren't speed runners and people who prefer to do double pulls are genuinely enjoying that content.

The best formula for dealing with "tanxiety" or "healxiety" is one or all of the following:

• Realizing that almost everyone is new, anxious, or stupid, and you're not the only goober in the roulette
• Not caring what some randomly-selected 25 minute teammate you'll never see again thinks about you
• Realizing that the people you grouped up with will forget you just as quickly as you forget them
• Realizing that death in FFXIV can barely be classed as an inconvenience and doesn't matter
• Realizing that FFXIV roulette content is so easy ice mages could clear it
• Realizing that someone who uses votekick on a player firing more than five neurons is hilarious because if you're trying at all odds are you got kicked by a dingbat who will replace you with someone statistically worse anyway

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Realizing that death in FFXIV can barely be classed as an inconvenience and doesn't matter

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This is the one that gets me everytime. Dying in FFXIV costs a minuscule amount of gil and sets you back a small amount of time. That’s it. Yet people absolutely lose their minds over it.

In old MMOs like early Everquest, your body, gear and all stayed where you died and it was up to you to go get it. Die as a newbie in the depths of somewhere like Blackburrow and you’d almost certainly need help to get to your corpse and gear. If you died in a more remote dungeon like Kaesora you’d have to hope you could persuade a necromancer to come summon your body or the recovery could end up taking hours. And this is before we even think about the saga that was a raid wipe in the planes back then.

Oh and yeah, many an MMO, FFXI and EQ included had some very significant XP loss including potentially deleveling on death as well. It was all too common to see people who couldn’t take a res from anyone other than a Cleric because they would delevel and be unable to use their gear.

Meanwhile in FFXIV, oh noes, 30 seconds and a few gil…

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

This is the one that gets me everytime. Dying in FFXIV costs a minuscule amount of gil and sets you back a small amount of time. That’s it. Yet people absolutely lose their minds over it.

In old MMOs like early Everquest, your body, gear and all stayed where you died and it was up to you to go get it. Die as a newbie in the depths of somewhere like Blackburrow and you’d almost certainly need help to get to your corpse and gear. If you died in a more remote dungeon like Kaesora you’d have to hope you could persuade a necromancer to come summon your body or the recovery could end up taking hours. And this is before we even think about the saga that was a raid wipe in the planes back then.

Oh and yeah, many an MMO, FFXI and EQ included had some very significant XP loss including potentially deleveling on death as well. It was all too common to see people who couldn’t take a res from anyone other than a Cleric because they would delevel and be unable to use their gear.

Meanwhile in FFXIV, oh noes, 30 seconds and a few gil…

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Yep. There are some people that have things go pear shaped and instantly start attacking everyone or getting nasty and snotty. I'm over here like, I didn't have to go search for an hour to find my body in Qeynos Hills or wait for a necromancer to summon me or get someone to drag my corpse (and potentially steal all my stuff before they patched that fix in) and you guys are complaining that we wiped a single time?

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Originally Posted by Miracle_Diva

I'm playing video games with efficiency in mind, sorry. People can use PF if they want to stop and sniff every flower on the way.

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Nope. That's not how DF works. It's fast times but you get what you get. Enforcing your own rules is what PF is for.

The weakest link determines your speed.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

Nope. That's not how DF works. It's fast times but you get what you get. Enforcing your own rules is what PF is for.

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Imagine pretending activating sprint is akin to speedrunning.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

Imagine pretending activating sprint is akin to speedrunning.

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Because when you use sprint, you run fast. So speedrunning.
https://media.tenor.com/Va9M6DvKygYA...-tsss-drum.gif