why the crystal tower raids are still part of the roulette?

Im still in the mindset that msq roulette should be organized into all dungeons and raids that are part of the msq and not just the measily 3 ARR instances.

and yeah this also includes CT

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

8 mans, too. I don't remember if the Live Letter specifically mentioned it would be required but given who they showed I wouldn't be surprised if that series was required to do first.

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The 6.3 quest required the Four Lords trials to be completed.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Im still in the mindset that msq roulette should be organized into all dungeons and raids that are part of the msq and not just the measily 3 ARR instances.

and yeah this also includes CT

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I totally agree!

Because spending 15 minutes instead of 45 in old content is based.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Im still in the mindset that msq roulette should be organized into all dungeons and raids that are part of the msq and not just the measily 3 ARR instances.

and yeah this also includes CT

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An MSQ roulette that includes anything and everything related to the MSQ wouldn't work because what you get is the old Castrum/Prae routine on steroids. You're mixing in content that takes 3 minutes to clear, up to 30 minutes to clear. Also considering that you're mixing in 4-man, 8-man, and 24-man content; it's the 4-man stuff that will get filled and pop constantly. It would kill the CT raids, which cannot happen. This is also why the CT raids can't get lumped with the MSQ roulette at all. However, you could place other 4-man content into this roulette for sure but we kind of already have leveling for that.

I've said it every time this topic comes up, there are two things that need to happen to fix this. The first is to de-incentivize the naked queues, and this is done by scaling the content up so its run time is on par with the longest 24-man clear time. The second is to divide up the alliance raids: 50/60, 70/80, and then max level. This will create more roulettes, and to that I say, "big flippin' deal" The same concept can be applied to all content in the game including raids and trials, which quite honestly need it done to them as well. I'm not only sick of CT, I am also sick of getting Gilgamesh, King Moggle Mog, and anything Alexander that isn't Cruise Chaser.

The older roulettes are incentivized by making the rewards for these higher than the newer ones.

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Originally Posted by ClaudeHerel

Because spending 15 minutes instead of 45 in old content is based.

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No!

If you don't like spending 45 minutes in old content YOU HATE THE GAME.

:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Pratini

No!

If you don't like spending 45 minutes in old content YOU HATE THE GAME.

:rolleyes:

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HERE-HERE
Sound Argument!

The reason CT won't go away is that it is necessary for MSQ. And if CT went away, there would just be the "next one" (whatever it would be) that would become the favorite. If it was Syrcus Tower, players would just open up Syrcus Tower and leave it at that as long as they can so they keep getting it.

I like how ones always complains about CT in roulettes, but the only purpose of roulettes is to help new players with queues and complete that content. They should just do away with all roulettes then no more complaints about not getting the duties you want.

At this point these "OMG WHY CT ROULETTEEEEE" threads can only be the result of a lack of understanding how the search function works.

Again, we get it. You get it. Everyone gets it.

Use the search and bump the latest thread. Then read through it to understand why things are the way they are.

I'll be the odd one out and say I don't really care what I get when I queue for alliance raid roulette. If it's CT, great I can get it done fast, if not, great, it will be more fun than CT (unless it's Dun Scaith, still hate that one).

I think this would be less of a problem if the overall time to complete was re-evaluated and normalized. If it takes, say, 20 minutes, to complete any raid in the roulette queue, on average, I think there would be a lot more variety in what people would be willing to do. Unfortunately, this is not bound to happen as the clear rates as they are now are kind of locked in. They'd have to retool the bosses and there is no way in hell they'd throw resources at it.

But hard agree that CT should be turned into a dungeon. How many more years will it take to get there, do you think? 10? Can you imagine people still running CT unironically in Alliance roulette in 2033?

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Originally Posted by VeyaAkemi

magitekLuna's entire post history at this point is starting to sound like "I want YoshiP to personally break into every newbie's house and shoot them in the head for daring to inconvenience me".

No, being seriously, while I agree the ways people exploit roulette is a problem, there is still a strong point that even in a perfect world where everyone has every single raid roulette unlocked, the bottom denominator would always be the most common by a wide margin, by nature of being the bottom denominator, if you removed CT, Shadows of Mnach would be most common, and you'd get people complaining that they've done Dun Scaith 200 times already and they are tired of it, and what you do then? every roulette has this issue, 50/60/70/80 and leveling roulette are predominantly ARR content, normal roulettes is predominantly Alexander, there isn't really a way to give you the fix you want, it'd be just a temporary solution.

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you are totally wrong here. if any thing i one of the people that will love to see yoshi move on from running ff14.i don't see him as someone that can fix things as all the problems we have now are from him. now i don't think he is bad or any thing . by move on i will like him to run SE.
as to newbie's point, they are in no way shape or form are the problem.

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Originally Posted by Pratini

What the hell are you talking about?

Hating doing some specific Semi-AFK content for easy XP = Hating the game?

You do know Alliance Raids are a joke right? The majority of people don't give a flying f. I'm sorry if thats peak gameplay for you lmao...

And I don't want to play "the less I can", I want to do the things I actually want instead of waste 40 minutes in a Nier raid when I can get the same experience from a 15 min Crystal Tower raid. That's 25 minutes I could be doing retainers, subs, EX trials, beast tribes, etc.

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what supper under preforming party's you need to get to stay 40 min in Nier raids? and sorry but its sound like you (and lots of people to be honest) saying you want to get the most easy and fast content as you can in the roulettes to finish it faster. to do what then? afk? play other games? as if its to do raids a 5-10 min longer roulette (all of them together) will not hurt you.
don't take its as a personal attack as its not. i just hear that same old thing over and over.

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Originally Posted by ClaudeHerel

Because spending 15 minutes instead of 45 in old content is based.

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what 45 min?? you don't know how to play and all the time getting 23 more players that don't know how to play at all? this raids take 20-30 min . you cant just afk there as well. so i really don't get it why people want to just afk in ff14 over playing it

40 minutes is pretty much the average in Paradigm's Breach because of the damage sponge bosses and that's when everyone in the raid is on point. Similar times in the other two because, again, the damage sponge bosses.

If we want a good average time, the average to run something like Ridorana or Orbonne or Dun Scaith is a good meter to use. CT skews it too low. Nier skews it too high.

They should move it to MSQ roulette due to the reason people cheat and exploit their iLevel down so they wont get anything newer than that.

If you remove it, they just all cheat to hit the level 60 24 man raids.

It is as simple as that, the fix should be when you hit level 60 there will be a lock on Alliance Roulette, where you need a minimumi ilevel to queu in the minimum for Dun Scaith... at level 70 the bar will be raised to the Orbonne Monastarie and so on and so forth.

It will plug the problem for good, because there is nothing wrong with those raids and for SE STILL allowing people to exploit/cheat to only queu in for onesided trash really is in heavy conflict with the ToS about hindering possible content on purpose.... and hey if keep yelling about that it is a gear issue then you pretty much get a new gear set thrown at you for free at every 10 levels from 50 and up.... and all gear can be bought for the basic tomes ( poetics ) up to level 80 and they can be acquired from lots of things.

It is no wonder the game is starting to push people away, especially when you only get the same old same old all the time, NO ONE WANTS CRYSTAL TOWER, all the time.

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Originally Posted by dspguy

The reason CT won't go away is that it is necessary for MSQ.

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*Looks at prae and castrum*

Changes can be made!

You aren't exactly proposing very bright solutions if your opening one is to plant this in the MSQ roulette. All you're doing is passing the issue from one roulette pool to another. In essence, you aren't solving a damn thing. Equally, pushing these into solo instances is just... No. There's no reason they need to relegate the ARR alliance raids to a solo experience just because you feel like you're tired of them, and most especially when there are still better solutions.

They just need to increase the minimum Item Level requirement so that it scales based on which expansion you're in. E.g., if you are 50-59, the minimum item level is 70, if you're 60-69 then the minimum item level becomes 205, if you're 70-79 then it becomes 335, and if you're 80-89 then it becomes 465. This way you cannot shaft your gear without making the roulette inaccessible. This I believe would resolve the problem of people shafting their Item level, and the rewards can be increased accordingly.

Furthermore, they do need to rework the scaling with these ARR raids, after all the changes we've had, they're simply wet noodles. Furthermore, they really need to look into resistance weapons relics. These are by far the most abysmally designed relic series we've had thus far, in this regard. Attach loathsome memories to the roulette itself as opposed to a particular series of alliance raids, e.g., Crystal Tower (Which they are) - This just exacerbates the issue, and quite significantly.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

40 minutes is pretty much the average in Paradigm's Breach because of the damage sponge bosses and that's when everyone in the raid is on point. Similar times in the other two because, again, the damage sponge bosses.

If we want a good average time, the average to run something like Ridorana or Orbonne or Dun Scaith is a good meter to use. CT skews it too low. Nier skews it too high.

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i dont know never got one longer that 30 min after the patch it was new in.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

40 minutes is pretty much the average in Paradigm's Breach because of the damage sponge bosses and that's when everyone in the raid is on point. Similar times in the other two because, again, the damage sponge bosses.

If we want a good average time, the average to run something like Ridorana or Orbonne or Dun Scaith is a good meter to use. CT skews it too low. Nier skews it too high.

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This is part of my frustration with Nier raids, half the time it feels the bosses just... drag, like yeah in a literal sense it makes them harder because longer fights give more room for mistakes, but it also makes them incredibly dull.

I wish the roulette ignores your queued iLv like trial does. Was amusing to watch that one NIN who zoned in literally naked in Zodiark normal back in 6.0. (An anecdote, take it as a grain of salt)

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

[…]If we want a good average time, the average to run something like Ridorana or Orbonne or Dun Scaith is a good meter to use. CT skews it too low. Nier skews it too high.

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Agreed wholeheartedly. This is one of the reason why I dislike getting Paradigm in particular despite being non-CT & a CT raid hater myself. Everything else are in the ‘sweet spot’ of ‘just long enough’ to be enjoyable.

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Originally Posted by TheGrimace

The hero we need, but not the hero we deserve. Thank you for your sacrifice.

I do this too, depending on my mood and whether or not there are any new players in the instance. If I'm not needed and could actually do a fun instance later, I'll take the penalty.

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Tips: leave AR roulette for the last of your daily roulette routines, so if CT raid pops you can just eat the penalty & do something else or log off for the day. The penalty will be meaningless this way.

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Originally Posted by magitekLuna

what supper under preforming party's you need to get to stay 40 min in Nier raids? and sorry but its sound like you (and lots of people to be honest) saying you want to get the most easy and fast content as you can in the roulettes to finish it faster. to do what then? afk? play other games? as if its to do raids a 5-10 min longer roulette (all of them together) will not hurt you.
don't take its as a personal attack as its not. i just hear that same old thing over and over.

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I still fail to understand why saying I don't want to waste time in Nier raids means I automatically AFK in Limsa doing nothing. Do you know what I do ingame? What type of content I like to complete? What type of player I am? The answer is NO, so why are you accusing me of "hating the game" for something so trivial? Sounds like daily roulettes are the peak of YOUR FF14 experience, which is kind of sad if you ask me.

Again, Alliance Raids are NOT peak gameplay, are NOT engaging, and for the majority of people they are NOT fun. We do because it gives a shit ton of experience for close to none effort.

No one is obligated to do roulette. Just queue for what you want and force roulette to find players. Roulette is for filling groups that need to be filled and there is demand for CT.

This past week I got the 3 rd Nier raid (which I abandoned immediately as the whiteness hurts my eyes and gives me a headache), Rabanastre, Ridorana, Aglaia, Void Ark (which is duller than CT raids) and Labyrinth of the Ancients (tanks didn’t know what they were doing and we wiped 5 times lol). I also queued for Euphrosyne for the token.

The thing is without CT everyone would be waiting a lot longer for the queue to pop as all other raids are optional. Void Ark would likely become the new CT.

There’s various reasons to get CT beside a first time and relic. Here are some examples:

- It's tied to story progress: regardless of level, not having finished HW does not allow you to unlock the next series. It’s almost impossible not to over level these days and even tome gear is locked behind MSQ progress. I once had someone DMing me after CT accusing me of skewing roulette on a lvl 65 char in Ironworks gear…duh! I was in post ARR quests where everything I fight is <= lvl 50. There was no point in getting better gear from the MB and it wouldn’t make a difference.

- someone might have queued for one of the CT raids for whatever reason

- a few weeks ago I ran numerous CTs because I was leveling up jobs between level 50 and 60. It was the only AR I could do and the XP is decent. Available roulettes are faily limited at that level and moving CT with MSQ would make leveling alt jobs more tedious as it would remove a huge chunk of daily XP;

- unlocking the optional raids takes a while and quest lines to unlock them are not only long, some are not very exiting and require a lot of running back to areas you have already completed (like that lore unfriendly dwarf/Nier quest in the most remote part of Kholusia, away from aetherytes)

- New players may want to prioritize the MSQ (everything in this game is tied to MSQ progress) and they may not even know there are other raids (I’ve met a few people in that situation);

- If someone buys a story skip (I did so to play with friends and get a house on another DC) nothing other than MSQ, not even glamours or chocobo fighting/bag, is unlocked. You end up with zillions of purple markers all over the place. Why would those players prioritize ARs over functionality, leveling other jobs and finishing MSQ? I’ll get there some day but I surely won’t unlock Nier 3 (and although I do like the other 2, I don’t feel like doing that quest at all). I wish SE would give us an npc to talk to in order to quickly unlock past extremes, normals and ARs per series when we buy a story skip!

NieR raids taking 20-30 minutes is ridiculously lowballing it. There's far too much unskippable RP in all 3 of those raids and the bosses are all huge damage sponges. Maybe you can get around 30 minutes on Copied Factory if your team is really good, but no way you'd ever clear Tower of Paradigm's Breach in 30 minutes.

I'd rather see them bump up the CT raids a bit and knock down the NieR raids a bit, Ivalice raids are the sweet spot in length. Not too short that everything else feels like a waste of time and also not too long that it feels like a drag.

I really don't mind it unless its the "World of Darkness" raid, I hate that one. Maybe cause I have such a fond for FF3 I just kick back and chill with the music, the raid itself is on autopilot.

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Originally Posted by VeyaAkemi

This is part of my frustration with Nier raids, half the time it feels the bosses just... drag, like yeah in a literal sense it makes them harder because longer fights give more room for mistakes, but it also makes them incredibly dull.

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what so dull about them? you cant afk on them like in the tower bosse

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Originally Posted by magitekLuna

what so dull about them? you cant afk on them like in the tower bosse

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It's specifically their length, you will loop through Egels entire rotation at least twice, then you look at his HP bar and he is at 60% or so, and then his phase transition happens and you wake up, and then you return to braindead mode, all while fighting an enemy so insanely large that he legitimately takes a quarter of the area and lets you basically play melee jobs without a discernable difference from ranged jobs except for the rare times he targets the very front of the area in specific, it all leads to him being about as interesting CoD but at least she has the courtesy of dying fast, and he is hardly the only boss of the raid series that have these issues.

I am not trying to say that I don't like any of the Nier fights, I think the Compound 2P and the False Idol fights are actually really cool even if they also drag longer than I'd like, but getting to them is a chore in itself, in fact Paradigm's Breach has two bosses with all the issues of Egels, Knave and the Zis, tho I guess Red Girl is a good interlude.

Moving CT to MSQ roullette is a logical choice at this point.

I have not touch the roullette in years.
I refuse to unless getting CT is like 20% chance or the mechanics becomes meaningful again.

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Originally Posted by magitekLuna

how long are we as players going to except such trash?:

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about 6 or 5 years now and counting XD

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Originally Posted by MsMisato

about 6 or 5 years now and counting XD

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sadly, but its a fact

I wouldn't really say the Nier raids are longer (aside from Paradigm's Breech, mostly because of drawn-out cutscenes), so much as they show you how much of the party is slacking off. Power creep and inflated item levels have made Crystal Tower such a joke that half of the bosses in the first two don't even get to do most of their mechanics anymore. A group that's on point in Copied Factory can skip plenty; I've seen parties that burned down the second boss before the floors made a complete rotation, or killed 9S before he could take his second bombing run, or Engels before he tried to clap. But a lot of people in Duty Finder slack off, so it's more noticeable.

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Originally Posted by einschwartz

Moving CT to MSQ roullette is a logical choice at this point.

I have not touch the roullette in years.
I refuse to unless getting CT is like 20% chance or the mechanics becomes meaningful again.

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I get it about 20-30% of the time on a lvl 80+ on my DC at the hours I play. Why remove everything from lower level players or players who have not completed HW regardless of level, have not unlocked the other raids for whatever reason (story skip, new player wanting to do MSQ) or are leveling alternate jobs? It makes no sense. 8m roulette is now lvl 60+ and now the introduction to 24m would also be gone along with a significant chunk of daily XP. There would be little left to do for those players, all to satisfy a minority.

What needs to be done is to provide incentives and facilitate unlocking the other ARS to increase the qualified player base (see my post above) to shorten the queue on some DCs. Otherwise, we'll just end up with a roulette with a very long queue like the 50/60/70/80 roulette and Void Ark will end up being the new CT ppl complain about ( it is duller than any of the CT raids).

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

I wouldn't really say the Nier raids are longer (aside from Paradigm's Breech, mostly because of drawn-out cutscenes), so much as they show you how much of the party is slacking off. Power creep and inflated item levels have made Crystal Tower such a joke that half of the bosses in the first two don't even get to do most of their mechanics anymore. A group that's on point in Copied Factory can skip plenty; I've seen parties that burned down the second boss before the floors made a complete rotation, or killed 9S before he could take his second bombing run, or Engels before he tried to clap. But a lot of people in Duty Finder slack off, so it's more noticeable.

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I saw that more before the stat squish but now after the stat squish it's incredibly rare. Even a couple times I have seen 9S brought down almost dead, he still does the second Undock. So SE may have put something in that he does it regardless now.

Y'now, I was thinking back on this thread while doing my daily CT run, and I feel this image speaks to the absolute state of WoD more than anything, you can talk down the first two, but WoD provides much excitement of the wrong kind...

https://i.imgur.com/7Kcm8yz.png

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Originally Posted by VeyaAkemi

Y'now, I was thinking back on this thread while doing my daily CT run, and I feel this image speaks to the absolute state of WoD more than anything, you can talk down the first two, but WoD provides much excitement of the wrong kind...

https://i.imgur.com/7Kcm8yz.png

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Haha I can see from the hint of the icons that that's the first boss. Luckily things tend to get better from there.

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Originally Posted by Toutatis

I get it about 20-30% of the time on a lvl 80+ on my DC at the hours I play. Why remove everything from lower level players or players who have not completed HW regardless of level, have not unlocked the other raids for whatever reason (story skip, new player wanting to do MSQ) or are leveling alternate jobs? It makes no sense. 8m roulette is now lvl 60+ and now the introduction to 24m would also be gone along with a significant chunk of daily XP. There would be little left to do for those players, all to satisfy a minority.

What needs to be done is to provide incentives and facilitate unlocking the other ARS to increase the qualified player base (see my post above) to shorten the queue on some DCs. Otherwise, we'll just end up with a roulette with a very long queue like the 50/60/70/80 roulette and Void Ark will end up being the new CT ppl complain about ( it is duller than any of the CT raids).

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what you just Sayed was so analogical i cant even.
"Why remove everything from lower level players" how moving it to a different place remodeling it? "players who have not completed HW regardless of level" so people that are to lazy to go and play the game need to be the norm on witch we live mow? "new player wanting to do MSQ" they will do msq this roulette is not even something they will do. msq now just level you up perfectly.
now i give you that yes they need to add incentives to do older content. because we can talk all day about what's more fun or not but most people will take the short cut if they can as long as there nothing for them to get.

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Originally Posted by VeyaAkemi

Y'now, I was thinking back on this thread while doing my daily CT run, and I feel this image speaks to the absolute state of WoD more than anything, you can talk down the first two, but WoD provides much excitement of the wrong kind...

https://i.imgur.com/7Kcm8yz.png

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if this really from CT this people need to just delete the character they play and start over and this time L2P

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Originally Posted by magitekLuna

if this really from CT this people need to just delete the character they play and start over and this time L2P

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This is often the WoD experience on Aether, especially when I play DPS. On healer I can usually keep things together for my group and help out others.

It's WoD. Looking away from the Angry Meatball is the hardest mechanic left, followed by chaining the doggo.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

It's WoD. Looking away from the Angry Meatball is the hardest mechanic left, followed by chaining the doggo.

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Oh, that's the funny part, as someone who has had a lot, lot, looooot of bad experiences with Angra, I can assure you, his problem isn't the pletora of instakill... sometimes it is, I had runs where we repeatedly wiped on him because 15+ people were dying to his gaze doom, but the really deadly and insidious part are his adds, to elaborate... immediately after the roulette mechanic resolves, he will spawn two Ahriman adds, these adds must be killed as soon as possible, if they aren't killed within a minute or so, they will cast Eyes On Me, which is a huge raidwide blast that deals 4-5k damage... in a raid where your max HP is just over 5k as a DPS, you only really need two people to target them, they don't have that much HP, but if you can't kill them because, say, you were hit with Level 150 Death and people didn't move out of the circle which means you died by no fault of your own, or everyone assumed that someone else would get them which means nobody got them(...never do that), they will wipe the raid or get damn close with the only survivors being those who were outside their range.

In that screenshot, that's exactly what happened, I had barely survived the blast, and immediately hit Max-Potion+Second Wind(my trusty Max-Potion stack is a godsent as idiot-proofing in ARR content), which put me at a comfy amount of HP on my own, but I still witnessed a whole alliance get utterly demolished in one second.

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Originally Posted by magitekLuna

if this really from CT this people need to just delete the character they play and start over and this time L2P

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I wish I lived in your world, wherever that might be? that's not even my worst WoD run this week, we somehow managed to not wipe even once, see this post for my second worst WoD experience of all time... because we at least cleared, my worst period was a Disband after the 5th wipe at Angra, it cannot be stressed enough how much people suck at this game, a while back I was running MSQ Roulette with an FC buddy who uses ACT for his own benefit, me Tanking and him Healing, and he showed me the log after... I was dealing as much damage as both DPS combined, as a level 50 WAR, where the extent of my damage dealing is my 1-2-3 combo, Inner Beast every so often, and 3 guaranteed crits hits every minute, Gaius got to 76% on his LB sequence for crying out loud...