Nerf the Hell out of Ninja

Doesn’t it make sense of Ninjas to be squishier? I mean they’re not exactly tanks by classic ff standards (XI notwithstanding) lol. Idk when I think of ff ninjas I think of high damage but lower defenses, not…high damage and high defenses and high HP and tanking cool downs lol. I’d say it’s their survivability over damage output that gives them such an advantage over other jobs

I think Ninja should have the same toolkit it has now but with significantly less passive damage reduction, maybe equal to Dancer (who also has to go into melee range and can deal some good aoe damage with Ovation but also dies to a slight breeze lol). Or keep the damage reduction but adjust Huton and possible Meisui (never see that used so not sure what it does for ninjas survivability).

Seiton Tenchu I’m on the fence about. The 50% HP threshold means it doesn’t feel quite as cheap as when a Samurai one-shots you from full HP because you used an AoE not realizing they had Chiten up lol. Though, being able to chain it with such minimal effort might be a bit much lol. The range is kinda whack too lol, 20y?! On a melee lb!

If you do that then you need to buff their damage, because right now their burst really sucks.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

If you do that then you need to buff their damage, because right now their burst really sucks.

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Their burst does suck. It's spread over multiple GCDs and they're more meant to harass. They still have a lot of utility for a Melee Job though, meaning they can equally pick and choose when to poke or when to support. It's why I said it has too much utility.

I still draw the line at Seiton. In CC that LB is obnoxious on many levels due to the fact you have a high threshold(50%) to hit that snapshots the HP on use, so it won't matter if you decide to recup or not on server tick or during animation. You're still dead even when you're recuping and running from the fight.

Taking a bit of time to look at it further, Death Link also poses an issue: It refreshes Seiton if you kill the target, so essentially you have an LB ready to go each time you refresh. The reason why I started this thread was because of NIN's ability to literally team wipe in PvP and turn the tide on any match, making it a lopsided job to have for any PvP Team.

If you remove Death Link, you could lower the CD on it to 60 and it'd still have some power, but not so much power as to change an entire fight into a landslide. That might be the move to do if we don't want to have big changes to the kit itself.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

Their burst does suck. It's spread over multiple GCDs and they're more meant to harass. They still have a lot of utility for a Melee Job though, meaning they can equally pick and choose when to poke or when to support. It's why I said it has too much utility.

I still draw the line at Seiton. In CC that LB is obnoxious on many levels due to the fact you have a high threshold(50%) to hit that snapshots the HP on use, so it won't matter if you decide to recup or not on server tick or during animation. You're still dead even when you're recuping and running from the fight.

Taking a bit of time to look at it further, Death Link also poses an issue: It refreshes Seiton if you kill the target, so essentially you have an LB ready to go each time you refresh. The reason why I started this thread was because of NIN's ability to literally team wipe in PvP and turn the tide on any match, making it a lopsided job to have for any PvP Team.

If you remove Death Link, you could lower the CD on it to 60 and it'd still have some power, but not so much power as to change an entire fight into a landslide. That might be the move to do if we don't want to have big changes to the kit itself.

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and thats why im able to fight one that has max battle high as a gunbreaker with no battle high (heal junction basically allows me to 3 v 1)

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

Their burst does suck. It's spread over multiple GCDs and they're more meant to harass. They still have a lot of utility for a Melee Job though, meaning they can equally pick and choose when to poke or when to support. It's why I said it has too much utility.

I still draw the line at Seiton. In CC that LB is obnoxious on many levels due to the fact you have a high threshold(50%) to hit that snapshots the HP on use, so it won't matter if you decide to recup or not on server tick or during animation. You're still dead even when you're recuping and running from the fight.

Taking a bit of time to look at it further, Death Link also poses an issue: It refreshes Seiton if you kill the target, so essentially you have an LB ready to go each time you refresh. The reason why I started this thread was because of NIN's ability to literally team wipe in PvP and turn the tide on any match, making it a lopsided job to have for any PvP Team.

If you remove Death Link, you could lower the CD on it to 60 and it'd still have some power, but not so much power as to change an entire fight into a landslide. That might be the move to do if we don't want to have big changes to the kit itself.

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The ability to team wipe is the point though... Its what brings them up and keeps them viable instead of being the horribly mid job that they are in pvp. If you see a nin with LB just keep your HP up or simply run away. More often than not nin players only get 1 kill in higher tier matches.

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Originally Posted by Llynethil

That's not what an opportunist role is, you're describing a multiclass or jack of all trades role.

An opportunists job is go in, get a kill on a weak target, get out, like a jungler from a moba, that's the opportunist role and it's what ninja and also monk sort of are, or at least should be, these roles by definition do not need high survivability tools, they need high burst and mobility, anytime they do get too much of everything, you end up with a mess you're better off redesigning entirely than patching something that can never be balanced because of the bloated kit, best example of this is WoW's rogue, it's always a problem class in pvp somehow and always will be because of the tools they have.

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I may have had the terminology wrong there, my bad.

But in this case... this makes NIN what you call jack of all trades, master of none, no?

I mean far be it from me saying it is fine or good, but traditional roles are sorta water under the bridge, like some tanks are basically just bruiser style DPS, Samurai qualifies more like an offense focused Paladin, Sage is basically a DPS tossing shields...

Imo would be cool if NIN got better tools and be less restricted, but honestly as long as Seiton Tenchiu exists I doubt that will happen.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

So use recup and keep yourself above 50% and retreat when getting focused? If you dropped below 50% to a zerg you're probably gonna die anyways, so does it really matter that a ninja ganked you with an LB?

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If that worked as well as you think it should, I wouldn't have posted on the forums. That's not the gotcha you think it is. Especially with the melee defense in Frontlines making Ninja's extremely hard to take on.

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Originally Posted by Remish

If that worked as well as you think it should, I wouldn't have posted on the forums. That's not the gotcha you think it is. Especially with the melee defense in Frontlines making Ninja's extremely hard to take on.

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It literally does. Pay attention to your surroundings, pay attention to where your team is and stop pushing forward when your team is backing off. It's so easy to bait nin lb and make them waste it.

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Originally Posted by Remish

If that worked as well as you think it should, I wouldn't have posted on the forums. That's not the gotcha you think it is. Especially with the melee defense in Frontlines making Ninja's extremely hard to take on.

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ransu may be a dunderhead 99% of the time but hes right about this one, as i said earlier just keeping yourself above 50% and fleeing to your team when getting chased is the best way to handle a ninja, besides a ninja cannot usually kill by themselves outside of their LB. HOWEVER their self healing ability needs a bit of a nerf.

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Originally Posted by Towa-Musa

ransu may be a dunderhead 99% of the time but hes right about this one, as i said earlier just keeping yourself above 50% and fleeing to your team when getting chased is the best way to handle a ninja, besides a ninja cannot usually kill by themselves outside of their LB. HOWEVER their self healing ability needs a bit of a nerf.

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This is a bit difficult depending on the content and circumstances. In Frontline probably yeah that will do, but in Crystalline Conflict this might get hard quickly with a timed LB from like a Dragoon, Summoner or White Mage. Or a timed burst in general.

And then there is Dark Knight who basically can't play while in LOS of a NIN with LB.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

This is a bit difficult depending on the content and circumstances. In Frontline probably yeah that will do, but in Crystalline Conflict this might get hard quickly with a timed LB from like a Dragoon, Summoner or White Mage. Or a timed burst in general.

And then there is Dark Knight who basically can't play while in LOS of a NIN with LB.

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pretty sure they might not be talking about CC.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

Their LB needs to change. The ability to insta-kill anyone at half health is insane and polarizes the entire game. That, and the fact they have an entire utility belt that can be used for any situation shows how stupidly overpowered they are right now.

Simply nerf the crap out of Ninja's main utilities and either rework Seikon to something else or lower the threshold to 25%.

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NIN already got a mega nerf adding +10 sec to Shukuchi and -1 sec to the LB chain, it will never be enough for people I guess.

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Originally Posted by Pickledpinkpeppers

NIN already got a mega nerf adding +10 sec to Shukuchi and -1 sec to the LB chain, it will never be enough for people I guess.

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Nobody is asking for a rework / removal of Seiton Tenchou without compensation buffs or rearrangement of the power budget, you know.

Those nerfs might as well be reverted to make the base kit stronger as they replace the instant kill mechanic.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

This is a bit difficult depending on the content and circumstances. In Frontline probably yeah that will do, but in Crystalline Conflict this might get hard quickly with a timed LB from like a Dragoon, Summoner or White Mage. Or a timed burst in general.

And then there is Dark Knight who basically can't play while in LOS of a NIN with LB.

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Makes sense with both of those since NIN is taking advantage of the situation that their team is making, which makes sense given it's a team based mode. Similarly, I think it also makes sense that certain jobs have counters from other jobs.

It's the snapshot state on the LB. If you look at some of the super high burst sequences in PvP, besides the instant kills (which no one likes), it obeys the rules of FFXIV. If you take 40k HP damage with 35k HP remaining, but on the update before that a recuperate registered soon enough, the server code will let you live if the damage update was delayed. Frustrating to deal with, but whether it's monk burst or machinist burst or gunbreaker burst, it goes through the same system. Ninja snapshots you to be dead immediately when used sub 50%. Rather it just deal triple damage and ignore guard and not have the animation that freezes both the target and the ninja in place. Will deal with last frame heals and mitigations and the same rules as almost everything else.

I encountered for the first time in CC a nin that back-to-back stunlocked me by themselves from full HP to zero and there was nothing I could do. Pretty overpowered bs.

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Originally Posted by Xeonerable

I encountered for the first time in CC a nin that back-to-back stunlocked me by themselves from full HP to zero and there was nothing I could do. Pretty overpowered bs.

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Yup stunlock with more useful ranged DPS than any actual ranged DPS then a nice 1 hit K.O. when you're unable to heal or purify. Real fun stuff and any complaints are obviously a skill issue /s.

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Originally Posted by Xeonerable

I encountered for the first time in CC a nin that back-to-back stunlocked me by themselves from full HP to zero and there was nothing I could do. Pretty overpowered bs.

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They don't have that kind of burst... You were getting attacked by more than one person.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

They don't have that kind of burst... You were getting attacked by more than one person.

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Yea honestly I play pretty much nothing but ninja in pvp and I've never been able to stun lock from full hp to zero.

Edit: Unless they meant they got stunned and damaged enough to get killed by seiton but then you should never drop low fighting a NIN

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Originally Posted by JuicyHeals

Yea honestly I play pretty much nothing but ninja in pvp and I've never been able to stun lock from full hp to zero.

Edit: Unless they meant they got stunned and damaged enough to get killed by seiton but then you should never drop low fighting a NIN

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Even then, they were still more than likely getting hit by more than one player. The two raiju are hardly what I'd call a stun lock, and even with bunshin there's no way those knock you down under 50% from full HP.

Hey hey hey, let's better talk about developers stagnation with pvp (despite updates, lol) and it's poor choice of focus on arena type pvp, in narative driven mmo nonetheless.

Instead of developing mass pvp battlefields (you know with machinery, siege, pve and stuff)with interesting naratives and lore, like in wow the game that shall not be spoken.

What I am saying - there's so little to the pvp, people start to rage of nothing.