The Definition of "Handsome"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

No, asking for this is not "hard to please" and I'm honestly quite tired of people pretending otherwise.

https://rpgsquare.files.wordpress.co...-xii-basch.jpg

---

I wish my guys hair flowed as well as Basch's hair does with his sideburns/facial hair. I feel like Male Elezen is the only one close enough to that "look" (but I don't want to use Beatin's hairstyle lol)

The Definition of "Handsome"

Female Roe.

Is this not the 4th or so time aveyond has made a thread about the games apparent lack of 'handsom' characters?

As Zero is one of my favourite characters at the moment that article looks fascinating, will have to find some translation of it. Honestly I did see her as a woman from the start, tough I could see why people may see her more as androgynous/male especially due to her outfit. Can certainly see how she may have started as a genderless character (In fact would have been kinda cool if they made her non-binary!) Handsom can be used for women too, take how people in the Valentione quest often referred to the girls in suits with the ‘handsom’ trait.

I think no one would object with a more ‘rugged/handsom’ character joining our team (Though I would say Estinie is handsome…) but its not the end of the world if they do not appear, I feel. You should not take it personally or as some sort of meta commentary. One of the reasons I love the games cast is because they often do not adhere to the sometimes stereotypical rules some JRPGS impose. Sure there are such archetypes we would all like to see join the cast, such as a musclebound FemRo… just in time for the new graphic update so they can show off all the muscle definition they will give us? Please?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hurlstone

Is this not the 4th or so time aveyond has made a thread about the games apparent lack of 'handsom' characters?

As Zero is one of my favourite characters at the moment that article looks fascinating, will have to find some translation of it. Honestly I did see her as a woman from the start, tough I could see why people may see her more as androgynous/male especially due to her outfit. Can certainly see how she may have started as a genderless character (In fact would have been kinda cool if they made her non-binary!) Handsom can be used for women too, take how people in the Valentione quest often referred to the girls in suits with the ‘handsom’ trait.

I think no one would object with a more ‘rugged/handsom’ character joining our team (Though I would say Estinie is handsome…) but its not the end of the world if they do not appear, I feel. You should not take it personally or as some sort of meta commentary. One of the reasons I love the games cast is because they often do not adhere to the sometimes stereotypical rules some JRPGS impose. Sure there are such archetypes we would all like to see join the cast, such as a musclebound FemRo… just in time for the new graphic update so they can show off all the muscle definition they will give us? Please?

---

Hey, he has a thing for handsome white men, don't shame him.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...8778/image.png

Something something, but the game is sold worldwide!

Besides... Isn't Clive like the SE-mc-handsomecutie-face: the disheveled edition. Meteor Hiroshi Derplander ran so Clive could fly, yeah?

Quote:

---

Let me be absolutely clear that from the perspective of most players when we saw Zero it was blatantly obvious that we were looking at a female face

---

I...I thought she was a dude until she opened her mouth. o.o

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Burmecia

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...8778/image.png

---

Then they must love the lion's share of dudes playing this game.

I saw her as a woman. She just had that FromSoftware NPC that will probably die when you accidentally miss a step in their questline energy in English. (I'm sorry, Eileen the Crow) And I love the design because she's just a big Vampire Hunter D reference.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by angienessyo

I saw her as a woman. She just had that FromSoftware NPC that will probably die when you accidentally miss a step in their questline energy in English. (I'm sorry, Eileen the Crow) And I love the design because she's just a big Vampire Hunter D reference.

---

Which is amusing because her facial design is Amano-esque anyway

https://www.britannica.com/dictionar...0or%20delicate.

"Yes, you can use the adjective handsome for women.

While handsome is more often used for men, women can also be called handsome. When a woman is described as handsome, it suggests that she is very good-looking, and also healthy and strong. Handsome is less likely to be used to describe a woman who is petite or delicate. "

/endthread

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MilkieTea

"Yes, you can use the adjective handsome for women.

While handsome is more often used for men, women can also be called handsome. When a woman is described as handsome, it suggests that she is very good-looking, and also healthy and strong. Handsome is less likely to be used to describe a woman who is petite or delicate.

---

...or feminine.

From my experience, when a women is called handsome it is not used as a term of endearment. It is used offensively.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gemina

...or feminine.

From my experience, when a women is called handsome it is not used as a term of endearment. It is used offensively.

---

I do accept that it's your experience, but in books I've read, some kinda old in the context they were written, women were called "handsome" at times but in a quite neutral manner. Heck in the Valentione quest this time around our companion was called "handsome", like someone mentioned earlier. A woman like a Highlander would get called that.

Also I understand your take on femininity/masculinity applying only on women/men respectively, Gemina. I've seen your posts across time on that topic, and sometimes I agree. But just like men can embrace being androgynous or even feminine - like Veena M Viera for example - women can embrace their naturally brawny, tall or muscular stature too. Sometimes people just don't fit the box they "belong" to, and they can pull that off too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RobynDaBank

I do accept that it's your experience, but in books I've read, some kinda old in the context they were written, women were called "handsome" at times but in a quite neutral manner. Heck in the Valentione quest this time around our companion was called "handsome", like someone mentioned earlier. A woman like a Highlander would get called that.

Also I understand your take on femininity/masculinity applying only on women/men respectively, Gemina. I've seen your posts across time on that topic, and sometimes I agree. But just like men can embrace being androgynous or even feminine - like Veena M Viera for example - women can embrace their naturally brawny, tall or muscular stature too. Sometimes people just don't fit the box they "belong" to, and they can pull that off too.

---

It is interesting that beautiful men are now a fairly acceptable thing, and yet handsome women has the connotation of being too masculine. It's odd, why can't a woman prefer to be more 'handsome' (whatever that might be) and have that be okay? If Zero was considered handsome, would that be a bad thing?

Well, here is the urban dictionary definition - seems flattering just not often used today:

A woman with the kind of refined beauty and attractiveness that requires poise, dignity, and strength of mind and character, things that often come with age; not merely sex-appeal. Usually applied to a woman who is also very well-groomed and from an upper class background.

This phrase is very dated and rarely used in today's English. Those who don't understand the term could almost be insulted by the word "handsome" being applied to a woman, mistakenly thinking you're saying she is masculine.
"Though she had lost long ago her virginal loveliness, she had ripened into a handsome and fruitful looking woman." - Ellen Glasgow

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Boblawblah

Hey, he has a thing for handsome white men, don't shame him.

---

Thirst is fine and acceptable in 14

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Burmecia

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...8778/image.png

---

While this is probably true, japanese artists also codified an entire genre of hyper-masculine art. (mostly geared towards gay men) So it's not entirely black and white.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gemina

...or feminine.

From my experience, when a women is called handsome it is not used as a term of endearment. It is used offensively.

---

I use "handsome" in a positive tone towards women all the time, in particular, I am very fond of the "princely handsome lady" trope, y'now, masculine fashion sense, maybe a rapier... as far as popular/well known examples of the trope go, Utena is probably the archetype for it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Boblawblah

It is interesting that beautiful men are now a fairly acceptable thing, and yet handsome women has the connotation of being too masculine. It's odd, why can't a woman prefer to be more 'handsome' (whatever that might be) and have that be okay? If Zero was considered handsome, would that be a bad thing?

---

Because masculine traits are "bad".

Personally, I thought Zero to be female before they opened their mouth. Looks sort of androgynous, but still has a feminine air to it, and was female before the calamity on the 13th.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Saraide

How do you do it? How do you manage to find the one person who is still taking your complaints seriously and just push them away with surgical precision?

---

hey, be nice to poor Aveyond. he uses a picture of his character which basically is a reflection of everything he says is wrong with men in the game. not to mention, I am sure he can recognize when someone is not "arguing in good faith" since.. well.. more reason to suggest they check a mirror...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kes13a

hey, be nice to poor Aveyond. he uses a picture of his character which basically is a reflection of everything he says is wrong with men in the game. not to mention, I am sure he can recognize when someone is not "arguing in good faith" since.. well.. more reason to suggest they check a mirror...

---

Hey, be nice to Poor Aveyond. His word alone dictates if the game will survive or not.
And dont challenge him, because he will never back up his claims, but he will ignore you.
He is tough cookie

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

Hey, be nice to Poor Aveyond. His word alone dictates if the game will survive or not.
And dont challenge him, because he will never back up his claims, but he will ignore you.
He is tough cookie

---

he does speak for EVERYONE after all so you are completely correct. FFxiv is circling the drain and only he can save us!

surprisingly, I can survive being ignored... hope thats not too upsetting

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RobynDaBank

I do accept that it's your experience, but in books I've read, some kinda old in the context they were written, women were called "handsome" at times but in a quite neutral manner. Heck in the Valentione quest this time around our companion was called "handsome", like someone mentioned earlier. A woman like a Highlander would get called that.

Also I understand your take on femininity/masculinity applying only on women/men respectively, Gemina. I've seen your posts across time on that topic, and sometimes I agree. But just like men can embrace being androgynous or even feminine - like Veena M Viera for example - women can embrace their naturally brawny, tall or muscular stature too. Sometimes people just don't fit the box they "belong" to, and they can pull that off too.

---

Real life isn't a fictional story you read in a book or a quest in a video game. Even textbooks that depict historical context come from different times, regions, and demographics. That is why I used my own experience in this regard. Now I totally understand what you're saying when it comes to men embracing femininity, and females embracing masculinity. The issue in the current time is females rejecting their femininity, and males rejecting their masculinity. These traits are considered toxic when displayed by the sex that corresponds to them, and celebrated when the opposite sex exhibits them. All under a false pretense that this 'empowers' the person, when it does just the opposite. Civilization was not built or sustained by these principles. Our species also cannot propagate in this manner either.

You're right. Not everyone fits perfectly into a mold defined by their biological sex. Ronda Rousy is a great example of a woman exhibiting masculine traits who still embraced her femininity and allowed it to empower her. While Prince is a great example of a man who was very effeminate, yet drew upon his masculine energy to build an empire and a legacy that will exist for decades, if not longer. These two people are entertainers though. Their lives are not what the majority of us small folk go through. Reality bites, it stings, and is often unpleasant. Which is why if you're a woman and someone calls you "handsome" they are very likely making fun of you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Boblawblah

It is interesting that beautiful men are now a fairly acceptable thing, and yet handsome women has the connotation of being too masculine. It's odd, why can't a woman prefer to be more 'handsome' (whatever that might be) and have that be okay? If Zero was considered handsome, would that be a bad thing?

---

The word "beautiful" is not the same as handsome. It has many different connotations and meaning behind it. The word can be used to describe a sunset, freshly fallen snow, or the birth of a child. The word "handsome" has far more specificity tied to it.

Zero being called handsome would suggest that she looks more masculine than feminine. The antonym to the word handsome you're looking for is "pretty". When a male is referred to as pretty, it suggests that his appearance is more feminine. If Zero was a male, I think the word "pretty" would apply quite well; as does the word "handsome" for her currently. Because Zero has an androgynous look to her, it is easier for both terms to apply to her. My personal take on her is that she still leans ever so slightly towards feminine, which is why I would not refer to her as handsome.

I'm starting to wonder what this thread thinks of the Jungian concept of the Anima and the Animus.

https://i.imgur.com/fZR0Y9X.png

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CidHeiral

https://i.imgur.com/fZR0Y9X.png

---

I am sad I can only like this once lol

I don't really see her as the typical girly girl type of woman like Ystola, lyse or Minfilia is, but she's still feminum to me, she don't really look,sound or act like a dude.

She reminds me of a calm mannered quiet caring goth or emo girl who is not very talkative or out going but seems like if u get to know her she'd be a sweetheart in her own way.

That's the vibes I get from her appearance and how she acts.

I hate that I'm replying, but a machine-translated article does not mean Zero is meant to be a dude, and the use of 'his' in the translation means exactly 0 things. It means that the machine translating the article used a gender pronoun when the actual text usually just means a person. In this case, breaking down the actual text used, a human would translate the 'he' the machine used as 'they' since Zero is supposed to be androgynous (though I think we know Zero is more feminine but has 'handsome features', which is what the scenario team asked for to get the point across that Zero is pretty masculine, but also feminine.)

In this case it would be "The scenario team wanted me to make an androgynous character, who has masculine features." Machine translations are great for understanding things, but actual context clues and nuance is always lost. If you look at translations where the devs talk about an actual female character like Y'shtola or Lyse or someone, a machine translation will still say 'he' regarding them, it's not just this one case and it doesn't mean that those characters are also males. It just means machines suck at translating beyond a surface translation meant to be able to read it with some level of understanding.

If you're going to rehash this same subject for the nth time, might I suggest just necroing your own thread instead? Though tbh this doesn't even warrant a thread necro for something stupid like "this clearly androgynous character who at least seems vaguely feminine though who's to say just yet beyond the voice should be RUGGED AND HANDSOME LIKE SOME RUGGED DUDE FROM A DIFFERENT GAME IN THE SERIES." You're entitled to your opinion on what kind of dudes you find hot, but you don't speak for everyone, either.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kazhar

While this is probably true, japanese artists also codified an entire genre of hyper-masculine art. (mostly geared towards gay men) So it's not entirely black and white.

---

well that would explain jojo

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hagare

well that would explain jojo

---

Similar style, but not quite. Usually bara tends to be a lot larger. JoJo is still pretty skinny all things considered, though it is on the right track.

Think Roegadyn-type bodies. That's the sort of thing you'd see in Bara. There's usually an emphasis on making guys wide as well as muscled, so JoJo is grazing it, but not really in the same camp.

Plus, it's characterized as made by men for men with not much thought given on whether it's appealing to women or not. JoJo is a shounen so it operates by different rules. (Or rather, started out as one, then got upgraded to Seinen). One's more LGBT-oriented and specifically meant to come across as lewd. The other is just there for "the coolness" aspect.

Araki's art and storytelling isn't the same as Gai Mizuki, for example.

I guess Baki would fit that better than JoJo, though Part I JoJo was almost as much brawn (but it got toned down part after part, the least of it starting from Part 4). Nowadays the characters are lean rather than buff.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RobynDaBank

I guess Baki would fit that better than JoJo, though Part I JoJo was almost as much brawn (but it got toned down part after part, the least of it starting from Part 4). Nowadays the characters are lean rather than buff.

---

Araki started with buff lads, then starting about Part 4 he experimented with twinks.
Part 5 onwards is hard shift into The Twink Phase.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Midareyukki

Similar style, but not quite. Usually bara tends to be a lot larger. JoJo is still pretty skinny all things considered, though it is on the right track.

Think Roegadyn-type bodies. That's the sort of thing you'd see in Bara. There's usually an emphasis on making guys wide as well as muscled, so JoJo is grazing it, but not really in the same camp.

Plus, it's characterized as made by men for men with not much thought given on whether it's appealing to women or not. JoJo is a shounen so it operates by different rules. (Or rather, started out as one, then got upgraded to Seinen). One's more LGBT-oriented and specifically meant to come across as lewd. The other is just there for "the coolness" aspect.

Araki's art and storytelling isn't the same as Gai Mizuki, for example.

---

oh I know bara.
But JoJo is really close with their older arcs. Though post-pucci they seem to be using a more standard body types.
Though the glam poses, the way they move, and almost everything else hadn't changed much xD

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Simple_Barghest

Araki started with buff lads, then starting about Part 4 he experimented with twinks.
Part 5 onwards is hard shift into The Twink Phase.

---

have you seen the new arc's characters? xD

I thought Zero had a very androgynous look, I believe the very first words out of my mouth were "Is that a guy? I can't tell for sure." (to my husband) and he said something along the lines of "No, why would you think that's a guy?".....To which I have no definitive answer, my first impression was just leaning slightly more toward masculine.

Personally, Urianger and Cid are both examples of what I view as handsome male characters. I don't run across that many, but overall it seems to be most often the elvaan guys. One character that looks very masculine to me is Gaius....too masculine even. He has a little bit of a Gaston-ish look that I find vaguely off-putting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by angienessyo

And I love the design because she's just a big Vampire Hunter D reference.

---

Female Vampire Hunter D is exactly what went through my mind when I first saw her

I thought Zero was a woman. Their looks, personality, and English voice acting all are in accord with the traits of strong woman characters shown throughout FFXIV. In fact, I wondered if Zero was meant to be the WoL's new partner now the Scions of the 7th Dawn are supposedly disbanded.

((I haven't done the full post EW MSQ quest line yet. I've been busy leveling Reaper specifically to go through the Void World as one.))

You all have me curious how Zero sounds in Japanese.

Slow forum day, eh?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Payadopa

Slow forum day, eh?

---

Probably. This is such an interesting thing to nitpick.

But I find it amusing that I’ve seen more discussion on Zero’s aesthetic than the actual plot on the forums.

Of course I only do light reading nowadays.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Erinellza

:) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDaYLxoJHBQ

---

When people said she had a deep voice I guess I was expecting a bit more.
Like, it is deep, but to me that's a distinctly feminine voice, not particularly androgynous.

Idk, maybe it's a personal or cultural thing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Midareyukki

I'm starting to wonder what this thread thinks of the Jungian concept of the Anima and the Animus.

---

Jung is cool and made some pretty good points, Freud on the other hand needs therapy, and so do I after reading anything from him.

We had Hien. I think he was supposed to fill that role for a bit.