Inconsistencies with the sundering (Spoilers)

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Originally Posted by SannaR

The ancients would have needed to know that the 1st summoning of Zodiark had actually done the job and not have delayed the Final Days. It took a giant crystal formed over 12,000 years turned into the form of various primals to get a ship to the edge of the universe. Remember the only person we know for certain that knew about Meteion by the time the Final Days started was Venat.

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Yes but that still doesn't preclude the ancients devising a plan to get to the edge of the universe. It would probably take a lot of effort and time but if their entire existence depended on it, it might be the course of action that they choose. Also, it's not entirely impossible for venat to confront emet-selch, hythlodaeus, and hermes with the information that she gleaned from the warrior of light's visit to their time period. Of course this would be a major deviation from the game's actual story but that's an idea that's being entertained in this thread.

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Originally Posted by PeaTearGriffin

Well now I'm confused because it says that "Dynamis is a far weaker form of energy, and is almost completely nullified by Aether in equal quantities." They don't interact with each other so to speak but they can cancel each other out according to the game. Here's a link to the website that I'm getting my information from https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Dynamis

Theoretically this means that a ton of aether could blast meteion away because dynamis can be completely nullified and cancelled out by aether even in equal quantities. Also you raise another good point. Hydaelyn, using the logic that aether nullifies dynamis, and if she was able to, could've gone out into space and killed meteion too. That would've made one hell of a cutscene.

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Problem number one is that you're reading the wiki. It's been known to be incorrect before and even on that page mentions things that have never been confirmed as if it's fact. Unless I missed something somewhere, there's been no mention that the DNC quest had to do with dynamis specifically and that's just theories. Those quests existed before the writers even conceptualized dynamis as being a thing that exists.

Ultimately through the story we're led to believe that for whatever reason they can't just blow Meteion away with aether. I'm not even sure what the point of arguing over it is because the writers who made up how aether and dynamis work can just make up anything on the spot to justify the story we got. If it was possible, we or someone else would've done it. The Ancients couldn't do anything at all themselves except to stall it with a shield and even if they flew to meet Meteion, the unshielded Ancients would get Final Days'd again. If Zodiark flew away to fight Meteion, then the unshielded planet would get Final Days'd again. If aether could smack Endsinger down, Hydaelyn would've just left and swatted her like a fly.


And again with the Ancients doing dynamis, people keep saying there's examples of it, but no one has actually pointed out where in an instance that is actually described as dynamis use, while the story itself outright states they just can't do it. Hermes was able to make something that can handle dynamis in the same way that humans can make an airplane but they can't expect to fly by themselves. As far as the Elpis flowers, all they did was react to Hermes' state of emotion and change color.

Ok let's go over some of these points then:

---- "Why did Hydaelyn sunder herself? (The Watcher mentions that she did.) Are there mini-hydaelyns in the shards? Why then did she get weaker with each rejoining?"-----

I dont think its directly stated that there are 14 full blown Hydaelyns and Zodiarks. All reflections are bounded by their singular entity, with the Source being its core. There are remnants of themselves within each shard though as seen from the 13th that their moon seemed to house the same prison as our moon's Zodiark perhaps? but I feel 6.4 will hopefully bring light into whats actually going on. Until then, there's only one Hydaelyn and one Zodiark, and they were all bound by the 14 reflections of their planet that glued them together. Which also meant that everytime a rejoining happened, Zodiark grew in power and thus Hydaelyn grew weaker as the seal was slowly being broken (since she used all that power to both sunder and maintain the primal in the seal)

-----"If the sundered weren't capable of, or didn't chose to save the star, wouldn't the refugees in the moon ship also be susceptible to the song after Zodiark was killed? And where was there to go? What kind of back up plan is that?"-----

It was a gamble on a desperate situation in which she made contingency plans in the events if x happens then y can happen. Obviously it was a risk, but when faced against certain doom, you really have no other options if your main plans fail.

------"If the ancients couldn't manipulate dynamis, how did Hermes create Metion? Why did the elpis flowers react to their emotions? How did Emet-Selch and Hythlodeus use creation magic in Ultima Thule to not only make an entire field of elpis flowers, but also make the liveable environment permanent so the scions could come back? What part of manipulating dynamis were they incapable of, that only the sundered could do?"-----

We dont know (or if we will ever know) the specifics behind Meteion's creation; at best I can theorize that Hermes who somehow became aware of dynamis energy created a being whom happen to be as aether-less as possible to be able to use this energy. After all Meteion was an experiment of this at the end of the day. Its like how we can create tools to do things we normally arent capable of doing. Elpis flowers react from sensing basic emotion and not the other way around. Hermes didnt directly control the flowers. Same can be said with Emet-Selch and Hythlodeus when they conjured Elpis flowers with creation magicks and brought the Scions and forged the path with the WoL's dynamis, which they were ultimately the ones to actually pull the feat off and not them. So basically in a nutshell they cant conjure that energy on their own due to their abundance of aether in their bodies. All examples showcasing this has always been an outside source of the energy.

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Originally Posted by PeaTearGriffin

Yes but that still doesn't preclude the ancients devising a plan to get to the edge of the universe. It would probably take a lot of effort and time but if their entire existence depended on it, it might be the course of action that they choose. Also, it's not entirely impossible for venat to confront emet-selch, hythlodaeus, and hermes with the information that she gleaned from the warrior of light's visit to their time period. Of course this would be a major deviation from the game's actual story but that's an idea that's being entertained in this thread.

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She wouldn't want to let Hermes know cause then he would know that he altered people's memories. That he had set into motion his test on if mankind is worthy enough to exist. He is a wild card. Hythlodaeus isn't part of the convocation and their only part of all of this is to choose to become part of Zodiark during the 1st sacrifice. They still would need to figure out a way to either A use a bunch of aether to travel to the far reaches of the universe or B create beings capable of manipulating dynamis while also not knowing what Meteion would throw at them. Would an ancient or a familiar know how to get pass various blocks Meteion puts in place? What the story shows is that the majority didn't want to move on and deal with their grief. It's why the ignored third sacrifice was the line in the sand. They summoned Zodiark to stop the final days and then once more to give the planet a jump start. The 3rd was to release at least the 1st sacrifice with other entities that held souls. You know the things they felt should always find their way back to the Aetherial Sea. If Pandeamonium has shown us anything the Ancients didn't do such a great job at handling strong emotions. Just cut it off if you can't ignore and bury it. Take some joy er I mean conform harder.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

She wouldn't want to let Hermes know cause then he would know that he altered people's memories. That he had set into motion his test on if mankind is worthy enough to exist. He is a wild card. Hythlodaeus isn't part of the convocation and their only part of all of this is to choose to become part of Zodiark during the 1st sacrifice. They still would need to figure out a way to either A use a bunch of aether to travel to the far reaches of the universe or B create beings capable of manipulating dynamis while also not knowing what Meteion would throw at them. Would an ancient or a familiar know how to get pass various blocks Meteion puts in place? What the story shows is that the majority didn't want to move on and deal with their grief. It's why the ignored third sacrifice was the line in the sand. They summoned Zodiark to stop the final days and then once more to give the planet a jump start. The 3rd was to release at least the 1st sacrifice with other entities that held souls. You know the things they felt should always find their way back to the Aetherial Sea. If Pandeamonium has shown us anything the Ancients didn't do such a great job at handling strong emotions. Just cut it off if you can't ignore and bury it. Take some joy er I mean conform harder.

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Its the biggest downside of living in a utopia, which Amaurot and the Ancient world was. It's why there's always lessons about perfectionism and living in total bliss is such a criticized concept, which numerous works of fiction have dabbled into its implementation and FFXIV is no different.

I kind of don’t like Hydaelyn too.
But I think SE really wanted to portray her as a parallel to real life religions or even Christianity deity, where the questions of “why God allows suffering” often arise, and that only through suffering can mankind find the true face of God.

Similarly, Hydaelyn sundered the world so that mortals can build up the proper strength to overcome adversity. She did not actively action or intervene in any meaningful way because she’s a deity.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Its the biggest downside of living in a utopia, which Amaurot and the Ancient world was. It's why there's always lessons about perfectionism and living in total bliss is such a criticized concept, which numerous works of fiction have dabbled into its implementation and FFXIV is no different.

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Definitely. Emet and many others show the presundered world as a utopia that didn't allow for individuality. The only outlet we know of came from their creations. Some of those being apex predators. And yet we knew there were cracks in it. After all why have an office who's entire role is to go out and deal with the ever day person's problems. Or an office that's all about keeping order? We don't know what kind of art they had even though we know that there was a convocation seat that was in charge of it. Sure there were others who had feelings that Hermes expressed, but they didn't seem to be as bothered by it. If a convocation member can lopp off a part of themselves to get rid of negative emotions and only two people raise a brow at it...

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Originally Posted by Fiel_Tana

As I wrote on page 1 here.

"If the ancients couldn't manipulate dynamis, how did Hermes create Metion? Why did the elpis flowers react to their emotions? How did Emet-Selch and Hythlodeus use creation magic in Ultima Thule to not only make an entire field of elpis flowers, but also make the liveable environment permanent so the scions could come back? What part of manipulating dynamis were they incapable of, that only the sundered could do?"

Clearly they can manipulate and interact with dynamis as shown in those notable examples.

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It is explicitly stated by Hermes during the WoL's time in Elpis that the aetheric makeup of the ancients is far too dense for them to be able to manipulate dynamis. This explains how sundered souls, which are 1/14th the aetheric density are capable of using limit break along with other examples of dynamis manipulation such as the Song of Oblivion in the BRD questline. He also stated that the entire universe is approximately composed of around 67% dynamis; meaning it stretches out to just about every corner of the existing universe.

Dynamis being an energy source is governed by emotions. What this explains is that while the ancients could not manipulate Dynamis at will, that does not mean it does not react to their emotions. Hence, the Elpis flowers changing colors. Elpis flowers are created by the use of aether, not dynamis. And the same goes for sustaining the hospitable environment on Ultima Thule. That is all aetheric and an essential component in thwarting Meteion's plans who bends Dynamis to her own will.

As for Meteion's creation, iirc she is still comprised of aether. It is just extremely faint. Emet Selch could have easily killed her with a snap of his finger, but there were a couple of things that stopped him from doing so. He wanted to hear her report, ascertain her cause, and became aware of her sisters; but when he was done with all that, Hermes intervened. He then sacrificed his time and memory in order to create an opportunity for the WoL and Venat to escape Ktisis Hyperboreia.

It's been a year since I've done all this, so some stuff is fuzzy. But yeah.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

Problem number one is that you're reading the wiki. It's been known to be incorrect before and even on that page mentions things that have never been confirmed as if it's fact.

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We at least know that the wiki is correct on aether nullifying dynamis because Hermes says to the Wol, Venat, Emet, and Hythlodaeus in one of the cutscenes on Elpis: "As you know, Aether, in essence, negates dynamis." So we at least know for certain that is true.

sauce: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSOzhX7-d64
2:22:36

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

Ultimately through the story we're led to believe that for whatever reason they can't just blow Meteion away with aether.

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I personally didn't hear or see that written anywhere during the msq but if that dialogue exists I'd sure like to read up on it.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

I'm not even sure what the point of arguing over it is because the writers who made up how aether and dynamis work can just make up anything on the spot to justify the story we got. If it was possible, we or someone else would've done it. The Ancients couldn't do anything at all themselves except to stall it with a shield and even if they flew to meet Meteion, the unshielded Ancients would get Final Days'd again. If Zodiark flew away to fight Meteion, then the unshielded planet would get Final Days'd again. If aether could smack Endsinger down, Hydaelyn would've just left and swatted her like a fly.

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I didn't really see this as an argument but rather a discussion on what other paths the game could've taken. It's like you said yourself "the writers can just make up anything on the spot to justify the story we got" which leaves the possibility of different solutions to the story. A vessel with an aether shield that prevents the ancients from becoming affected by dynamis as they travel to the edge of the universe; technology that can hold tremendous amounts of Zodiark's aether so zodiark doesn't have to be physically present to slay meteion and he can just hang back on etheirys to keep the shield going, and other alternate endings. If aether could be used on Endsinger then hydaelyn could definitely kill her as well and I can see that being a badass ending as well.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

She wouldn't want to let Hermes know cause then he would know that he altered people's memories. That he had set into motion his test on if mankind is worthy enough to exist. He is a wild card. Hythlodaeus isn't part of the convocation and their only part of all of this is to choose to become part of Zodiark during the 1st sacrifice. They still would need to figure out a way to either A use a bunch of aether to travel to the far reaches of the universe or B create beings capable of manipulating dynamis while also not knowing what Meteion would throw at them. Would an ancient or a familiar know how to get pass various blocks Meteion puts in place? What the story shows is that the majority didn't want to move on and deal with their grief. It's why the ignored third sacrifice was the line in the sand. They summoned Zodiark to stop the final days and then once more to give the planet a jump start. The 3rd was to release at least the 1st sacrifice with other entities that held souls. You know the things they felt should always find their way back to the Aetherial Sea. If Pandeamonium has shown us anything the Ancients didn't do such a great job at handling strong emotions. Just cut it off if you can't ignore and bury it. Take some joy er I mean conform harder.

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Still everything you said doesn't make it impossible (in an alternate ending for the story) for venat to change her decision to confront all three, especially under extenuating circumstances, or for the ancients to figure out a way to either "use a bunch of aether to travel to the far reaches of the universe or create beings capable of manipulating dynamis while also not knowing what Meteion would throw at them." Yes there are many hurdles to accomplishing these things but they are not completely impossible. Like I said this would be a major deviation from the game's actual story but part of the purpose of this thread is to discuss alternate paths for the game's story.

you are all kind of overlooking something important. time frame.

for us, it took a couple days/weeks, whatever time frame you want to apply to it.

But Zodiark wasnt created the day after we left, we have no reference how long the time span was between us leaving and the creation of Zodiark, who was created to hold the world together, not fight Metion.. who no one knew about except Venat.

in the end, we have no idea how strong Metion may have been by the time Zodiark was created. Dynamis may be weaker, but she is also drawing it from the entire universe... not one planet. So I think this whole "1/4 of Zodiarks strength should have been enough to overpower Metion" is conjecture. we have no actual way of knowing. In the defense of the star, "compression" of the shell Zodiark provided could have made it stronger, but who knows.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

These threads always read like some CinemaSins "just fly the ring to Mordor on eagles and the whole story is over. PROBLEM SOLVED!" It just reminds me that the modern media consumer has zero interest in what stories are about, and would rather meticulously dissect the physics "rules" of magic.

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It's because the reasons the story uses to try to argue that there was "no other way" are not exactly rock solid, and are also trying to be used as a defense for having to cause the end of the world as man once knew it.

I told myself back in Shadowbringers that if the Sundering was intentional, it would've had to have been for a really, really good reason for me to find it a moral course of action, but in the end, it was fueled by naught but "maybes" and knowledge that the future we came from was acceptable, if not preferable by Venat's standards.

Dynamis? She admits to having only a "basic" understanding of it, then Beyond the Rift delves into the notion of how the "strength to overcome despair" she sought to cultivate was arbitrary and unfathomable. Not to mention she is only enlightened as to the terrible negative effects dynamis is capable of having on sundered beings, so taking the "fight fire with fire" approach by sending people who can influence dynamis after Meteion was strictly a gamble.

Mankind ending themselves in the pursuit of perfection? The third sacrifice was plainly stated back in ShB to be a terminal point where the Convocation intended to simply resume their way of life as best they could once the sacrificed were restored. Perhaps they might have gone down that path, but it makes no sense to pre-emptively lay waste to everything before things even started going in a bad direction; much less so when it's made clear that the actual sacrifices involved were not the true concern.


There are so many problems I have with basically every aspect of Venat's framing/decisions from everything post-Ktisis up to the present...but I could've been more okay with it if they hadn't doubled down on trying to push her as the absolutely righteous moral authority instead of someone who simply made a selfish, questionably reasoned choice to impose her ideology on the world and that it ended up working out in the end.

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

you are all kind of overlooking something important. time frame.

for us, it took a couple days/weeks, whatever time frame you want to apply to it.

But Zodiark wasnt created the day after we left, we have no reference how long the time span was between us leaving and the creation of Zodiark, who was created to hold the world together, not fight Metion.. who no one knew about except Venat.

in the end, we have no idea how strong Metion may have been by the time Zodiark was created. Dynamis may be weaker, but she is also drawing it from the entire universe... not one planet. So I think this whole "1/4 of Zodiarks strength should have been enough to overpower Metion" is conjecture. we have no actual way of knowing. In the defense of the star, "compression" of the shell Zodiark provided could have made it stronger, but who knows.

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It doesn't matter all that much because in the present day we know that a sundered Zodiark whom is seven times restored was keeping the Final Days at bay. However, he was also doing this when all of the source's reflections were intact [before any rejoinings]. Both Zodiark and Meteion were gaining in strength as time passed. Even with around the entire universe being comprised of around 67% dynamis, Meteion still could not eliminate Etheirys off the cosmic map solely due to Zodiark's existence.

I think what does get overlooked is that the sundering was not executed to stop the Final Days. It was done to stop the sacrifices to Zodiark, and by extension Zodiark himself. Venat definitely never meant to kill him, but it was also very likely that she wasn't even capable of doing so. She basically admits this, and says the best she could hope for was to imprison him. The watcher also confirms that due to the sacrifices of over half the population made to him, Zodiark was far more powerful than Hydaelyn.

Simply put, Zodiark is an aetheric beast of incomprehensible strength.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

I think what does get overlooked is that the sundering was not executed to stop the Final Days. It was done to stop the sacrifices to Zodiark, and by extension Zodiark himself.

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It wasn't done to stop the sacrifices. At least, it wasn't the primary motivation.

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Q: Venat had good intentions and her plan worked out in the end, but as a result, the world was sundered and most of the Ancients suffered for it. Was sundering the star really the only way to save it?

A: At the very least, as Y’shtola theorized, Venat believed the Ancients were too dense in aether to control dynamis and stop the Final Days at its source. Perhaps she also believed the Ancients would be unable to change as a people and were doomed to become their own undoing. Therefore, I believe she chose to sunder the star and dilute mankind’s aether, so that someday they might be capable of fighting against despair.

As she said herself, Venat’s actions are not a simple matter of good or evil, and she agonized over it for eons. In a sense, Venat’s very decision to sunder the star makes me think that she too, was an Ancient herself.
Normally, I think it would be impossible for someone to make that kind of choice, but similar to the ways in which Emet-Selch and Hermes evaluated mankind, this was Venat’s way of passing judgment.

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Emet-Selch and Elidibus believed the sacrifices were the primary motivation but this isn't what's talked about when we see Venat's followers in patch 5.2. They seemed more concerned with the idea that their civilization was headed to downfall (which is consistent with the above Yoshi-P's quote and Venat's stated motivations during her metaphorical flashback.)

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Originally Posted by PeaTearGriffin

Still everything you said doesn't make it impossible (in an alternate ending for the story) for venat to change her decision to confront all three, especially under extenuating circumstances, or for the ancients to figure out a way to either "use a bunch of aether to travel to the far reaches of the universe or create beings capable of manipulating dynamis while also not knowing what Meteion would throw at them." Yes there are many hurdles to accomplishing these things but they are not completely impossible. Like I said this would be a major deviation from the game's actual story but part of the purpose of this thread is to discuss alternate paths for the game's story.

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Here's the thing though. This theory and alternate paths has been discussed seven ways til Sunday and then some. To the point that the 700+ page thread has gone from but what about X and Venat is a total B to people nitpicking about how this part of the story let alone the entire 6.0 story looks like through various philosophical lenses. You're just joining in very late. So late that some are trying to point out the myriad of ways the Ancients would have had a rough time or how other options had a slimmer chance at success than the one the story gave us did while trying to still be polite. All the while you seem to be wanting to ignore those or try and shoot them down. It's why I said what I did earlier. That death itself has forgotten what state of being alive this particular horse is in cause it has thrown their hands up and walked away. This has been discussed so much I'm surprised no one has come in here with a popcorn eating gif and some form of the "Oh sh*t here we go again" meme. If not a "How many times do we gotta teach you old man?"

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

It wasn't done to stop the sacrifices. At least, it wasn't the primary motivation.



Emet-Selch and Elidibus believed the sacrifices were the primary motivation but this isn't what's talked about when we see Venat's followers in patch 5.2. They seemed more concerned with the idea that their civilization was headed to downfall (which is consistent with the above Yoshi-P's quote and Venat's stated motivations during her metaphorical flashback.)

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I just don't buy it. None of it, and feel that this is a deflection so Venat isn't demonized, which is clearly what the dev team did not want. With the information she had, Venat knew that mankind's aether is capable of stopping Dynamis in its tracks. As was the case with the summoning of Zodiark. She had no information whatsoever that dynamis could be used to combat dynamis, and sundering all the aether on Etheirys would somehow miraculously grant mankind the ability to manipulate it. That's a haymaker.

Furthermore, Venat did not have to wait for the summoning of Zodiark to enact her plan. However, doing so prior would alter the timeline and that was something she promised the WoL she would not do. However, she was always curious as to what drove her to such lengths to become Hydaelyn and genocide her own people and all life on the star. She eventually found out, and it was the sacrifices. Ironically enough, it was her own despair that motivated her to perform the sundering. Emet Selch and Elidibus were correct.

Again, the Final Days was already halted. When Hydaelyn occupies Krile's body in Garlemald, she admits to the WoL that she only hoped to imprison Zodiark for a time, and knew it was temporary. He was just too strong, which suggests that she didn't even do battle with him. Venat became Hydaelyn and in her first act as the godly primal, she sundered him and all of Etheirys. I do agree with Yoshi that this was Venat's way of passing judgment, which she did on her own people. That's a bit different than Emet's judgment of what became of them. They did not want to demonize Venat, but for a large portion of the playerbase, they failed in that regard.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

Here's the thing though. This theory and alternate paths has been discussed seven ways til Sunday and then some. To the point that the 700+ page thread has gone from but what about X and Venat is a total B to people nitpicking about how this part of the story let alone the entire 6.0 story looks like through various philosophical lenses. You're just joining in very late. So late that some are trying to point out the myriad of ways the Ancients would have had a rough time or how other options had a slimmer chance at success than the one the story gave us did while trying to still be polite. All the while you seem to be wanting to ignore those or try and shoot them down. It's why I said what I did earlier. That death itself has forgotten what state of being alive this particular horse is in cause it has thrown their hands up and walked away. This has been discussed so much I'm surprised no one has come in here with a popcorn eating gif and some form of the "Oh sh*t here we go again" meme. If not a "How many times do we gotta teach you old man?"

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That very well may be so because I didn't start watching endwalker msq till only a week ago, so I'm sure there's been plenty of discourse about the story ever since the game was released. But still, I'm going to come to the forums to discuss the story, and to be completely blunt, I'm going to discuss the story in any way I want. Usually on video game forums like these, people are free to chat about other topics, like what the game could've been or how the story could've been better, no matter how many threads have been created before and after. People are free to take part in these discussions and they're also free not to.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

There are so many problems I have with basically every aspect of Venat's framing/decisions from everything post-Ktisis up to the present...but I could've been more okay with it if they hadn't doubled down on trying to push her as the absolutely righteous moral authority instead of someone who simply made a selfish, questionably reasoned choice to impose her ideology on the world and that it ended up working out in the end.

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And that's another thing that makes venat's choice to sunder etheirys even more confusing. The evidence she had at that point from the WoL's account of what was happening in the current timeline was that sundered people in thavnair were still unable to control dynamis and were turning into blasphemies left and right. After hearing that she still thought it was a good idea to sunder etheirys?

I've seen someone mention before that part of venat's reason for sundering etheirys was because she needed less aetherically dense beings who could use dynamis to kill meteion, but how is that a good decision if the WoL told her that after zodiark was destroyed in the current timeline a second final days started happening and people were turning into blasphemies? That's just a completely terrible gamble to make where the odds were stacked against her. The fact that her plan worked was sheer blind luck as well as a generous amount of help from the writers in the form of plot armor.

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Originally Posted by PeaTearGriffin

That very well may be so because I didn't start watching endwalker msq till only a week ago, so I'm sure there's been plenty of discourse about the story ever since the game was released. But still, I'm going to come to the forums to discuss the story, and to be completely blunt, I'm going to discuss the story in any way I want. Usually on video game forums like these, people are free to chat about other topics, like what the game could've been or how the story could've been better, no matter how many threads have been created before and after. People are free to take part in these discussions and they're also free not to.

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Which is fine, but you're behaving as this fan theory that isn't yours but a friend's unless I'm mistaken as something new and unique. While also trying to do the same thing you accuse others of doing just because they don't want to talk about a theory. You also seem to not understand how much aether is needed to get to the ends of the universe. It'd be like expecting a 1930s Woodie to get you to the moon and back with just regular diesel gas. It took over 12 thousand years of collected aether to get a small ship carrying about 14 people there. I'm not sure the aether needed included coming back in the calculations or not.

Meanwhile you're there going I'm sure Hydelean a being that yes is bigger and more powerful than let's say Ramuh who when summoned ate 12 unsundered beings could just fly there. When we know that two unsundered beings that flew from somewhere around the Dragon Star or the Alpha star made it to Etheryis on basically fumes. Omega was severely damaged to the point on the way here had to systematically shut down their other systems. Midgardsormr lost their firey mane and went to sleep guarding Silver Tear lake soon after.

Then there's Zodiark who couldn't jump start one planet's ecosystem without half of the population after its first summoning was also sacrificed. Sure he didn't use up all their aether due to them still being semi alive inside of him. Yet think of how many more would have to die or how much time they'd have to spend getting enough energy let alone making an even bigger guess as to how do you fight something that if it wanted to could go invisible to your senses if you didn't make things that could track it without the use of aether.

People turned into Blasphemies after Zodiark died because of the thinness of aether. It's the same reason why the Ancients themselves weren't and couldn't be affected by the song of Oblivion yet their creations were. It's because their creations are naturally thinner in aether.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

Which is fine, but you're behaving as this fan theory that isn't yours but a friend's unless I'm mistaken as something new and unique.

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If you're admitting that it's fine then let it be. Simple as that. I know this fan theory might not be new or unique. I even acknowledged that earlier by saying "I'm sure there's been plenty of discourse about the story ever since the game was released" implying that the alternate fan theories I mentioned may have already been said. But that doesn't mean I can't talk about it on the forums here.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

You also seem to not understand how much aether is needed to get to the ends of the universe. It'd be like expecting a 1930s Woodie to get you to the moon and back with just regular diesel gas.

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But lets not forget that unsundered etheirys and its inhabitants are a lot more aetherically dense than the sundered world. Sure it may take 12,000 years for the sundered to collect that much aether but what about the unsundered? It could take dramatically less time for them to do so, and what would be the huge deal if it did take a lot of time?

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Originally Posted by SannaR

Meanwhile you're there going I'm sure Hydelean a being that yes is bigger and more powerful than let's say Ramuh who when summoned ate 12 unsundered beings could just fly there. When we know that two unsundered beings that flew from somewhere around the Dragon Star or the Alpha star made it to Etheryis on basically fumes. Omega was severely damaged to the point on the way here had to systematically shut down their other systems. Midgardsormr lost their firey mane and went to sleep guarding Silver Tear lake soon after.

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Someone else made this suggestion. The only thought I really had on this idea was that it would be a pretty cool cutscene if Hydaelyn flew out and killed meteion herself.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

Then there's Zodiark who couldn't jump start one planet's ecosystem without half of the population after its first summoning was also sacrificed.

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Yes, this makes sense for the actual game's story, but I was talking with another forum member about an alternate reality where Zodiark was much much more powerful and naturally had a lot more aether.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

People turned into Blasphemies after Zodiark died because of the thinness of aether. It's the same reason why the Ancients themselves weren't and couldn't be affected by the song of Oblivion yet their creations were. It's because their creations are naturally thinner in aether.

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Yes, that's correct. The thinness of their aether allowed them to be affected by dynamis more, as opposed to the ancients who had a lot more aether and couldn't be directly affected by dynamis but their creation magics were.

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Originally Posted by PeaTearGriffin

Snips.

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You're right we don't know how long it would take them to gather enough energy to send something on at least a one way trip. This of course is assuming that Hermes didn't go rogue and the knowledge of sacrificing half of the planet's population didn't actually deal with the root of the problem that caused the final days didn't create mass hysteria at the same time. What we do know is after something was cleared for release into the wild for the betterment of the star is they were hands off. That and returning to the star was according to Hythlodaeus always beautiful and something to be celebrated. And yet for whatever reason the remaining ancients post Zodiark's initial summoning felt they could not or would not be willing to wait for the ecosystem to rejuvenate itself.

So, why do you think those who couldn't wait for that to happen on its own would be willing to wait for enough aether or whatever they ended up using to send a group of people, or familiars, or creations to go fight something they don't know how to fight? Would they even choose to send our pre-sundered self? As at that point in time Azem had left the convocation and been labeled as a traitor? Or Hermes in a "Hey Jackrabbit you got us into this mess now go deal with your pet project"? Or do you not even think about taking said risk because they one or both could choose to sabotage the mission even if you saw it as a suicide mission. Not that I think Azem would be that spiteful.

The other thing is would they i.e convocation and any general public choose to want to use Zodiark to speed up the process and thusly condemning even more souls to live inside it? You know not allowing said souls to being able to return to the Star which was pre Zodiark something they cared immensely about. To the point people who even though they respected Venat after she retired from being Azem would occasionally ask her when would she you know go and kick the bucket? As it was going against custom to not do so after stepping down from such a prestigious position. Sure they might not have celebrated it like a New Orleans wake, but Hythlodaeus and Emet did make it seem as though it was to be seen as a joyous occasion. That is a lot of speculation with very little information to say which way it all would go as we only really know how Emet , Hermes, Venat, Elidibus and Lahabrea would probably react. As we barely interacted with Igeyorhm, Nabriales or Mitron. The rest of the convocation is very much a mystery as to their personalities. Even Logrith is a mystery as Gia acts differently than how she did before the sundering.

The worst part about time travel stories are how forgiving it is to stupid decisions made by supposedly intelligent people. It doesn't really matter how much sense it makes to gamble everything on a slim hope when you know it worked.

Granted I still think the sundering was a necessary evil because... well if you're a race capable of splitting reality into 13 reflections I think you're officially too powerful to exist. But that was never the reasoning used. Don't know why. The actual excuse given makes Venat on about the same level as Mother Teresa.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

So, why do you think those who couldn't wait for that to happen on its own would be willing to wait for enough aether or whatever they ended up using to send a group of people, or familiars, or creations to go fight something they don't know how to fight?

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Because some ancients might see or can be convinced that its better to solve the root of the problem instead of just applying a band-aid solution like zodiark. Venat certainly saw that it was necessary to fight the root of the problem which is partly the reason why she sundered everyone. Also there's the possibility that gathering the aether might not take that long.

I'll dive a little bit into what I think could've happened. This is just a fan theory so don't take this too seriously. Venat could put a plan into action that involves informing the other ancients of what she learned from her encounter with meteion and hermes WITHOUT implicating hermes. She could say: "Look, your memory is gone but mine isn't. Your creation went crazy and escaped and is coming back to kill us all and we need to do something." All the while she could tiptoe around the fact that hermes attacked her, emet, hythlodaeus, and the WoL at Ktisis Hyperboreia. Why avoid revealing this to hermes? Because they need hermes' cooperation because he knows the most about meteion. Would the revelation that all the ancients might die to hermes' creation cause panic and mass hysteria? It might and it probably will. But that doesn't mean the ancients will refuse or are incapable of a devising a plan to fight meteion. Once the hysteria subsides they can begin working on a plan to travel to the edge of the universe and kill meteion.

In the event that it does take lots of time to prepare for an assault on meteion I'd imagine there would be a lot more resistance to carrying out such a plan, so venat would have to sway public opinion. She would have to convince everyone into taking a course of action that resolves the problem at the source (killing meteion) instead of just a band-aid solution that is zodiark's aether shield. Will it be hard to convince all the ancients that this is a plan worth putting into action? Yes. Will it be impossible? No.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

Or Hermes in a "Hey Jackrabbit you got us into this mess now go deal with your pet project"? Or do you not even think about taking said risk because they one or both could choose to sabotage the mission even if you saw it as a suicide mission.

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If hermes were to join the expedition to the edge of the universe only to betray the entire crew, that would in my opinion make for a very entertaining cutscene. It would almost be like Cypher from the Matrix where he betrays morpheus and everyone on the ship.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

The other thing is would they i.e convocation and any general public choose to want to use Zodiark to speed up the process and thusly condemning even more souls to live inside it?

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If it's to eliminate something that's a threat to their entire civilization, yes possibly. Desperate times call for desperate measures. If someone had a chance to sacrifice themselves to zodiark in order to save everyone on the star, I'd say that's something that the ancients might find worth celebrating too.

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Originally Posted by hydralus

Granted I still think the sundering was a necessary evil because... well if you're a race capable of splitting reality into 13 reflections I think you're officially too powerful to exist. But that was never the reasoning used. Don't know why. The actual excuse given makes Venat on about the same level as Mother Teresa.

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That could be another way for venat to justify the sundering of etheirys, although in my opinion it would once again make for a very one-sided decision which doesn't consider anybody else's views other than venat's. It gives it a somewhat religious undertone to it, like the whole "one should not have too much power, wealth, etc." concept from the bible.

It's been a bit since I saw the cutscenes but IIRC it was less the Ancients couldn't interact with dynamis at all or manipulate it but that it made their creation magics go out of whack and become uncontrollable. Their society relied heavily on these creation magics so any response to Meteion would involve utilizing them. I'm not sure how they could have mounted a proper offense with the tools they had available assuming they could reach her. We as the WoL don't have pesky creation magics to fall out of our control.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

It's been a bit since I saw the cutscenes but IIRC it was less the Ancients couldn't interact with dynamis at all or manipulate it but that it made their creation magics go out of whack and become uncontrollable. Their society relied heavily on these creation magics so any response to Meteion would involve utilizing them. I'm not sure how they could have mounted a proper offense with the tools they had available assuming they could reach her. We as the WoL don't have pesky creation magics to fall out of our control.

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That's entirely true, but summoning zodiark helped the ancients regain control of their creation magic again. The ancients were an especially advanced civilization very dedicated to science and technology. I really don't think that they would be incapable of creating something that could travel the stars. Even one scientist alone (hermes) was able to create a being all by himself that could reach the end of the universe (meteion).

It's also true that sundered people can't lose control of their creation magic, but they can turn into blasphemies themselves which I don't think is that much better.

To quote a few real life pilots about Top Gun 2's plot, here is the realistic rewritten of the story:

- Maverick died 5min into the movie at march 10. *('cause only in Holywood someone would survive that).
- Scene skip to the destroyer launch a bunch of cruise missile and destroy the target without the need of any planes. 'Cause that exactly how the Pentagon would handle that mission in real life.
- The end.

But then, that kind of realism doesn't make a movie.


About the sunder scene: it's called stage play, and the one saw is a well executed one. You definitely won't pull off something like that without some professional training. Does that mean everyone like it? Of course not. But at the same time I don't think "realism" is a valid criticism either. You can compare two plays and debate which one is better. But for example, saying a play is better made into a movie isn't a valid comparison. After all, a Shakespeare play doesn't share the same goal as a Hollywood action flick.



And the last part about why the Ancient doesn't fight. They always say you need both a will and a mean. At the on set, the Ancient lacked both. I don't think reaching Endsinger is an issue, but even if they face her ... then what? While it's true the sundering thin out the aether, I would think the main, or at least the other half of the reason was to train the mentality that can accept suffering. The former is the "mean", the latter is the "will". It is within reason to say they can get around the "mean" part given how advance and powerful the ancient were, but they would never achieve the "will" due to the nature of their society. It's a battle they certainly could have fought, and one that they would definitely lose.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

To quote a few real life pilots about Top Gun 2's plot, here is the realistic rewritten of the story:

- Maverick died 5min into the movie at march 10. *('cause only in Holywood someone would survive that).
- Scene skip to the destroyer launch a bunch of cruise missile and destroy the target without the need of any planes. 'Cause that exactly how the Pentagon would handle that mission in real life.
- The end.

But then, that kind of realism doesn't make a movie.

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Here's top gun 2's plot written in the same style as endwalker:

Tom cruise blows up all the fighter jets because he believes that the F-18s make the mission too easy to accomplish. He thinks everyone should fight a ground war to make people understand true pain and suffering and what it really means to be a soldier in a war. The movie is emotional, fantastic, and full of exciting fight sequences but leaves the audience thinking: "why on earth did he choose this method of fighting the enemy?"

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

About the sunder scene: it's called stage play, and the one saw is a well executed one. You definitely won't pull off something like that without some professional training. Does that mean everyone like it? Of course not. But at the same time I don't think "realism" is a valid criticism either. You can compare two plays and debate which one is better. But for example, saying a play is better made into a movie isn't a valid comparison. After all, a Shakespeare play doesn't share the same goal as a Hollywood action flick.

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I don't think anybody here is asking for total realism. What some people are asking is for square enix to not retcon the story from shadowbringers. Some people may see the sundering cutscene as metaphorical/symbolic but other people see it as a continuity error. You can make a cutscene symbolic or metaphorical and not have it change the story.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

And the last part about why the Ancient doesn't fight. They always say you need both a will and a mean. At the on set, the Ancient lacked both. I don't think reaching Endsinger is an issue, but even if they face her ... then what? While it's true the sundering thin out the aether, I would think the main, or at least the other half of the reason was to train the mentality that can accept suffering. The former is the "mean", the latter is the "will". It is within reason to say they can get around the "mean" part given how advance and powerful the ancient were, but they would never achieve the "will" due to the nature of their society. It's a battle they certainly could have fought, and one that they would definitely lose.

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I know, all I'm saying is imagine an alternate ending where the ancients do have the will to fight. I don't think it's beyond reason for the ancients to muster the will to destroy meteion to secure the safety of their people.

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Originally Posted by PeaTearGriffin

I don't think anybody here is asking for total realism. What some people are asking is for square enix to not retcon the story from shadowbringers. Some people may see the sundering cutscene as metaphorical/symbolic but other people see it as a continuity error. You can make a cutscene symbolic or metaphorical and not have it change the story.

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I know, all I'm saying is imagine an alternate ending where the ancients do have the will to fight. I don't think it's beyond reason for the ancients to muster the will to destroy meteion to secure the safety of their people.

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I don't see it retconning anything, it just focus on answering a different answer. You want to see a cinematic implementation of the conflict mentioned in ShB, but this scene isn't about that. The scene is not about the civil wars or conflict between the 2 ancient factions, but about the reason for it. The short dialogue is meant to show why Venat decided she had no choice but sundering the ancient, not to show your the epic power struggle between her and Zoc (which is what the ShB portion was about).

In fact, that's pretty much the answer to your 2nd quote as well. The will to fight is not what is needed. You're pitching a civilization who had know nothing but a blissful paradise existence against an entity that had seen despair on countless world, they can not win. The Ancient can't fight because they didn't know who their enemy was, and Venat didn't disclose it because precisely what happened in that CS. It showed that she did not make an arbitrary decision, and tried to convince them to change. But once she saw the Ancient would rather die to get back their old paradise instead of accepting the reality, she know her people had no hope in winning that battle. Had she let them know about Metion, it could very well be the Ancient gonna march right to their demise in their omnipoten ignorance/arrogant.

It's also why the most meaningful interaction (for me) when the Scion met Hydaelyn was Alise's answer to her question "are you ready?". In which Alise reply was "sure, no problem, we beat her up and win for sure ... is what the old me would say. But do we actually have a chance?". The maturity in Alise's answer (who used to be the most cocky of the Scion) symbolize the growth Hyadaelyn was seeking in humanity. The agony and acceptance of your own powerlessness, the pain of fear and uncertainty, yet despite that still find the courage to forge ahead is what separate the current humanity and the Ancient.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

I don't see it retconning anything, it just focus on answering a different answer. You want to see a cinematic implementation of the conflict mentioned in ShB, but this scene isn't about that. The scene is not about the civil wars or conflict between the 2 ancient factions, but about the reason for it. The short dialogue is meant to show why Venat decided she had no choice but sundering the ancient, not to show your the epic power struggle between her and Zoc (which is what the ShB portion was about).

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Of course there are people that don't see it as a retcon because there's the excuse that the cutscene was metaphorical and symbolic. I and plenty of other people don't buy though. It seems like the developers created a continuity error and use this excuse to sweep it under the rug.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

In fact, that's pretty much the answer to your 2nd quote as well. The will to fight is not what is needed. You're pitching a civilization who had know nothing but a blissful paradise existence against an entity that had seen despair on countless world, they can not win.

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This I don't agree with because the ancients had a lot of things going for them. They were a technologically advanced civilization very dedicated to science, and we also know that aether nullifies dynamis because Hermes says to the Wol, Venat, Emet, and Hythlodaeus in one of the cutscenes on Elpis: "As you know, Aether, in essence, negates dynamis." So to say that the ancients cannot win under any circumstance and that the sundering was the only choice seems like a cop out to me.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

It's also why the most meaningful interaction (for me) when the Scion met Hydaelyn was Alise's answer to her question "are you ready?". In which Alise reply was "sure, no problem, we beat her up and win for sure ... is what the old me would say. But do we actually have a chance?". The maturity in Alise's answer (who used to be the most cocky of the Scion) symbolize the growth Hyadaelyn was seeking in humanity. The agony and acceptance of your own powerlessness, the pain of fear and uncertainty, yet despite that still find the courage to forge ahead is what separate the current humanity and the Ancient.

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I understand that some people like the narrative that the game pushes: that humanity is courageous and resilient and can overcome any obstacle with determination and willpower. But to me, that message lost its impact once I realized that humanity was created at the expense of the ancients and that the decision to do so was made without consulting anybody else. It was a very selfish decision to make. This is honestly why I like shadowbringer's version of the story better where the sundering happened because of a huge battle between zodiark and hydaelyn.

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Originally Posted by PeaTearGriffin

Of course there are people that don't see it as a retcon because there's the excuse that the cutscene was metaphorical and symbolic. I and plenty of other people don't buy though. It seems like the developers created a continuity error and use this excuse to sweep it under the rug.

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They have literally said it is symbolic, and we have a Lodestone story released after Endwalker featuring Venat and the Watcher at the time shortly before the Sundering—which is still canon to Endwalker. It wasn't retconned, it was a cinematic representation of Venat's guilt and burden presented through cutscene form. It's a scene meant to make us feel bad for her and that's all it is.

Ask yourself questions about what is shown, if it makes sense (90% of it doesn't):
Did Emet-Selch stand in the midst of Amaurot while the Final Days was happening and Hythlodaeus ran off to become part of Zodiark? Absolutely not. Emet-Selch was probably stuck with the Convocation preparing for Zodiark's summoning, as it was their doing. He and Hermes, now Fandaniel, were also shown without their masks—a major taboo in Amaurot, espescially for those of the Convocation.

Was a group of random yay-hoos unassociated to the Convocation the people who sacrificed others to Zodiark? Like the scene implied? No. The convocation made those decisions, the populace was like sheep to the slaughter underneath their control and guidance, they had no choice in the matter.

Further, its established even in 6.X that Venat had followers, many followers. Those followers and she of who chose to sacrifice half the remaining population to create Hydaelyn (revealed in 5.2). It wasn't a decision she herself made and the revelation in Myths of a Realm and through the Lodestone story with the Watcher confirm that this is still the case.

There are so many inconsistencies and nonsense depictions in that scene that its actually hilarious when you look at what's going on. Honestly, how anyone can take it seriously and think it is a continuity error genuinely confuses me.

None of what happened in that scene made sense, the Final Days was stopped before the sundering happened, the scene shows it going on concurrently even though what we're supposedly witnessing there is the second set of sacrifices which was what brought life back to the planet.

That right there was the dead giveaway that the scene was worthless, cinematic drivel that was meant to make us feel bad for Venat/Hydaelyn and nothing more.

Its a bad, poorly written scene that served no narrative purpose other than to try and make us feel bad for Hydaelyn and that's all it was.

You need to understand that our visit to Elpis changed nothing, it had already happened by the time we had gone there, which is why its a loop.
Everything happened the way we already knew it had because everything was already pre-ordained to take place.

For Endwalker's narrative to even work, nothing could change, that was the whole point. Meaning we always had gone to Elpis, we were always Hydaelyn's inspiration, she always knew about the future, and she always chose to remain silent despite the information she knew.

I figure the reasoning was: "Well the players already know all this pre-established information, so there's no need to have that represented in the scene as they won't question it," which is, often a direction they do go with the narrative. Why suddenly people think its different here is beyond me. lol

Its paradoxical and frankly silly, but its the direction they went with.

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Originally Posted by PeaTearGriffin

Of course there are people that don't see it as a retcon because there's the excuse that the cutscene was metaphorical and symbolic.

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So because people have a different take of opinion than your own version is simply making excuse? You know what's this called? It's called gaslighting.

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I and plenty of other people don't buy though.

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Sure, you do you. But ... I can also point of the popularity of that scene to show you plenty of people think highly of it. So ... tell me, what make you and your version somehow more valid or superior?

Are you a certified story connoisseurs?

Are you an Oscar winning screen writer?

Or a perhaps a top sell author?

Or are you just an average gamer like ... the rest of the people who have a different take on the story than yours?

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Originally Posted by Aniya_Estlihn

They have literally said it is symbolic, and we have a Lodestone story released after Endwalker featuring Venat and the Watcher at the time shortly before the Sundering—which is still canon to Endwalker. It wasn't retconned, it was a cinematic representation of Venat's guilt and burden presented through cutscene form. It's a scene meant to make us feel bad for her and that's all it is.

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I know they said it was symbolic and I don't buy that. Do you really think they're just going to say: "uh yeahhh... we didn't really pay attention to the story we created in shadowbringers so we accidentally retconned it." Of course not because that would throw their story writers under the bus by implying they were careless and did a sloppy job. You can choose to believe them but I certainly don't.

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Originally Posted by Aniya_Estlihn

None of what happened in that scene made sense, the Final Days was stopped before the sundering happened, the scene shows it going on concurrently even though what we're supposedly witnessing there is the second set of sacrifices which was what brought life back to the planet.

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I brought this up earlier and someone said that it still makes sense because blasphemies still appear even after the endsinger died, and that sin eaters still exist on the first.

It seems like you're well aware that square is creating all these continuity errors and inconsistencies but you suddenly believe them when they say that one of the most important cutscenes in the game isn't an accidental retcon and is just a metaphorical cutscene? If you believe that, it's ok. But I personally don't. There's a pattern of carelessness here on the writer's part.

I'm going to start using that excuse from now on. If I accidentally retell a story incorrectly and someone calls me out on it, I'm going to say I was speaking metaphorically. What an excuse.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

So because people have a different take of opinion than your own version is simply making excuse? You know what's this called? It's called gaslighting.

Sure, you do you. But ... I can also point of the popularity of that scene to show you plenty of people think highly of it. So ... tell me, what make you and your version somehow more valid or superior?

Are you a certified story connoisseurs?

Are you an Oscar winning screen writer?

Or a perhaps a top sell author?

Or are you just an average gamer like ... the rest of the people who have a different take on the story than yours?

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I'm making a direct accusation. That's not gaslighting... This is gaslighting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

So ... tell me, what make you and your version somehow more valid or superior?

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I didn't say that either. Now you're just being snippy because I disagreed with you. Try again.

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Originally Posted by PeaTearGriffin

I'm going to start using that excuse from now on. If I accidentally retell a story incorrectly and someone calls me out on it, I'm going to say I was speaking metaphorically. What an excuse.

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So... do you also think the writers meant that Venat canonically walked down a hallway of smoke covered in blood while sundered beings who don't exist yet loitered around her?

If your take on this whole thing is that the writers forgot the lore and made it up for one scene at the climax of a decade of story and then later said "oh it's symbolic" as a cover-up, then there really is nothing more to talk about with you.

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Originally Posted by PeaTearGriffin

I'm making a direct accusation.

I didn't say that either. Now you're just being snippy because I disagreed with you. Try again.

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So ... you admit the opinion that not align with your is merely "making accuse". While presenting yours, and say you're not claim it as more valid/superior, despite "directly accusing" the opposition as just making excuse ...

Eh ... feel like telling me exactly what you're doing then? And I may need an Oxford definition of what you're doing to be convinced otherwise. In the mean time, this is what I'm using: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_test

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

So... do you also think the writers meant that Venat canonically walked down a hallway of smoke covered in blood while sundered beings who don't exist yet loitered around her?

If your take on this whole thing is that the writers forgot the lore and made it up for one scene at the climax of a decade of story and then later said "oh it's symbolic" as a cover-up, then there really is nothing more to talk about with you.

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I can agree at least that was metaphorical. But that walk down the hallway doesn't retcon the story from shadowbringers.

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Originally Posted by PeaTearGriffin

I know they said it was symbolic and I don't buy that. Do you really think they're just going to say: "uh yeahhh... we didn't really pay attention to the story we created in shadowbringers so we accidentally retconned it." Of course not because that would throw their story writers under the bus by implying they were careless and did a sloppy job. You can choose to believe them but I certainly don't.

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So we've established that you don't believe the authors of the story are writing the story as they say they're writing the story. Okay..well, you're definitely free to do that.

You know, you were better at trolling lalas, now you're more like a snarkier version of who you know. it's not as entertaining.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

So ... you admit the opinion that not align with your is merely "making accuse". While presenting yours, and say you're not claim it as more valid/superior, despite "directly accusing" the opposition as just making excuse ...

Eh ... feel like telling me exactly what you're doing then? And I may need an Oxford definition of what you're doing to be convinced otherwise. In the mean time, this is what I'm using: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_test

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You're aren't furthering the discussion here. You're just attacking me because I disagree with your take on the story.

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Originally Posted by PeaTearGriffin

I can agree at least that was metaphorical. But that walk down the hallway doesn't retcon the story from shadowbringers.

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It's literally the same cutscene. She narrates over the whole thing and is walking the whole time except for the pause in the summoning sequence. We also see Hythlodeus there even though we know in EW that he got sacrificed to Zodiark and thus should not be walking around. That scene happens right as she's talking about those sacrificed to Zodiark and he says his goodbyes to Emet-Selch. Unless you expect that the writers want us to believe that he was Zodiark'd 1 minute before Hydaelyn was summoned.