6.28 Patch Notes

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Originally Posted by Reimmi

Ease of play should have absolutely nothing to do with job balance.

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It has to in order to be actually balanced

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Originally Posted by FireMage

It has to in order to be actually balanced

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Who asked for summoner to be dumbed down? should everyone who played pre-EW summoner be punished with the lwoest damage in the game because they now play the "easiest" job?
No. players should not be punished for bad dev decisions, once again, ease of play should not affect job balance

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Originally Posted by Reimmi

Who asked for summoner to be dumbed down? should everyone who played pre-EW summoner be punished with the lwoest damage in the game because they now play the "easiest" job?
No. players should not be punished for bad dev decisions, once again, ease of play should not affect job balance

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This is what we in the know refer to as a non point. It doesn't matter if anyone asked for it or not, what matters is what IS. Ease of play MUST affect Job balance, otherwise you are penalizing skill

Difficulty is subjective, and the overwhelming majority of people have neither the same skill or time invested in any two jobs to make that assessment fairly. The 'highest skill job' for anyone is usually the one that they main. Most players have a hard enough time correctly evaluating their own competence, let alone trying to gauge job difficulty, and most public opinions on the subject are a reflection of whoever has been shouting the loudest.

If you want skill to drive gameplay, you stop giving out preferential treatment and level the playing field. Only insecure players are afraid of that, because you don't select for strong jobs, you select for strong players.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Difficulty is subjective, and the overwhelming majority of people have neither the same skill or time invested in any two jobs to make that assessment fairly. The 'highest skill job' for anyone is usually the one that they main. Most players have a hard enough time correctly evaluating their own competence, let alone trying to gauge job difficulty, and most public opinions on the subject are a reflection of whoever has been shouting the loudest.

If you want skill to drive gameplay, you stop giving out preferential treatment and level the playing field. Only insecure players are afraid of that, because you don't select for strong jobs, you select for strong players.

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Hey, remember when high end WARs were worse than gray DRKs on P8S? You clearly have no clue what you're talking about

If you did know what you were talking about, you would have brought up the term 'interquartile ratio' as an objective measure of performance distribution, and understand how sample power relates to comparing two different population samples.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

If you did know what you were talking about, you would have brought up the term 'interquartile ratio' as an objective measure of performance distribution, and understand how sample power relates to comparing two different population samples.

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Hey remember when Xenosys Vex literally hopped from WAR to GNB and then suddenly was clearing Heph 1? I do. Literally a case of bring the class. You are dismissed until you have something of value to post

You've just demonstrated why jobs should have rdps parity within a given role. You contradicted your very own statement about subjectively 'higher skill' jobs deserving to have preferential treatment. Good work.

They still not brought Protes back for the WHM. :( :( :(


Cheers

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Originally Posted by Lyth

You've just demonstrated why jobs should have rdps parity within a given role. You contradicted your very own statement about subjectively 'higher skill' jobs deserving to have preferential treatment. Good work.

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Except that I didn't. There's a distinct difference between a permissible gap, and inbalance. And you clearly lack the education to tell the difference

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Hey remember when Xenosys Vex literally hopped from WAR to GNB and then suddenly was clearing Heph 1? I do. Literally a case of bring the class. You are dismissed until you have something of value to post

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You do realize this completely nullifies your original argument, yes? Xeno wouldn't have switched if Warrior was balanced properly. And it would be balanced properly if the devs (and people in general) stopped using subjective variables like job difficulty.

Even taken at face value, that excuse doesn't hold up. Pretty much every experienced tank player would rank Paladin as the most difficult tank to optimize. Hence the "spreadsheet tank" memes. Meanwhile, a good amount of players consider Dark Knight very similar to Warrior. So by that logic, Dark Knight should be among the weakest tanks. Instead, it's the strongest in nearly every category. It's almost like job difficulty is, yet again, entirely subjective and a very poor metric to use.

Put another way. Most players will play their preferred job regardless of whether an easier achieves comparable damage. Gunbreaker players aren't going to suddenly become Warrior mains if the latter was buffed to match it. Look no further than White Mage, a job which has always been ranked below Astro in the meta scene yet is always more popular. This only changes if the separation becomes too high.

Darn! I was meme'ing for weeks that MCH will get +10p to their actions but instead they're given +20p, I've missed the mark :p Need to train my psychic better another time.

Also, I think at this point I'm starting to reading into the lines a bit too much... but I can shake off the odd feeling when reading SGE's balance overview, specifically the following explanation phrase: "To ensure all sages felt the benefits of these changes, regardless of playstyle--"

Other than that... oh yeah. They're making some pieces dyeable. I hope this will extend to other undyeable pieces like those pieces from ARR, HW, and StB Alliance Raids, Woad set, Valkyrie set, Plague Doctor, Arhat, etc etc... you name it!

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Other than that... oh yeah. They're making some pieces dyeable. I hope this will extend to other undyeable pieces like those pieces from ARR, HW, and StB Alliance Raids, Woad set, Valkyrie set, Plague Doctor, Arhat, etc etc... you name it!

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Valkyrie sets! The healer top needs dye badly. What were they thinking with the brown-and-violet colour scheme there?

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Hey remember when Xenosys Vex literally hopped from WAR to GNB and then suddenly was clearing Heph 1? I do. Literally a case of bring the class. You are dismissed until you have something of value to post

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so you agree that all jobs should be working at a similar level of performance no matter how they play.

WHM's Miracle of Nature gets nerfed again in pvp.


How about make Miracle of Nature an 5m range AoE next? High risk, high gain as a gap-closer disabler.


Also more dyeable low-level sets are cool. Hope they will do Shisui set next.

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Originally Posted by hagare

so you agree that all jobs should be working at a similar level of performance no matter how they play.

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I see you chose not to read anything following like the prior t-cup. What is with the rampant illiteracy on here?

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Originally Posted by FireMage

I see you chose not to read anything following like the prior t-cup. What is with the rampant illiteracy on here?

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because the important part is you admitting that jobs should be buffed so they perform at a similar level so every job is viable.
Instead of what you said, Literally a case of bring the class.
Thank you for being such a contrarian that you went against your first point.
see ya later, derplander

Monk's PvP Earth Reply needs to be less janky, manually activating where there is lots of delays in PvP feels dreadful, I do not think having 5 seconds shorter is the right solution...

Dyable dungeon gear is nice although that is due to Tactics Ogre, waiting for other gears like Valkyrie and Fillibuster/Royal Volunteer sets for example.

But it is good news they do not need to make a new gear for these kind of changes!

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Originally Posted by hagare

because the important part is you admitting that jobs should be buffed so they perform at a similar level so every job is viable.
Instead of what you said, Literally a case of bring the class.
Thank you for being such a contrarian that you went against your first point.
see ya later, derplander

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Except that I didn't. There's a distinct difference between a permissible gap, and inbalance. And you clearly lack the education to tell the difference

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You really should learn to properly read instead of trying to insult the intelligence of your betters

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Originally Posted by FireMage

You really should learn to properly read instead of trying to insult the intelligence of your betters

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so to you a literal case of bring the class is a permissible gap.
A case where one class is replaced by another because it can't clear is a permissible gap?
https://media.tenor.com/q9crr_x6HLYA...-that-word.gif

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Originally Posted by hagare

so to you a literal case of bring the class is a permissible gap.
A case where one class is replaced by another because it can't clear is a permissible gap?
https://media.tenor.com/q9crr_x6HLYA...-that-word.gif

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Look at the little troll, trying to infer. Proper balance would only have permissible gaps. The GNB over WAR one was not an example of a permissible gap. Do you get it yet bluelet SMN?

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Originally Posted by hagare

so to you a literal case of bring the class is a permissible gap.
A case where one class is replaced by another because it can't clear is a permissible gap?
https://media.tenor.com/q9crr_x6HLYA...-that-word.gif

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A permissible gap would be the slight difference of 1-2% inside of a role.

Not sure where this argument started but the state Warrior was in compared to Gunbreaker was not a 'Permissible gap' it was downright unbalanced and the community let the devs know.

All jobs withing a Role should perform within 1-2% of eachother, there is no 'Skill Job does more DPS' because that just makes things harder to balance.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Look at the little troll, trying to infer. Proper balance would only have permissible gaps. The GNB over WAR one was not an example of a permissible gap. Do you get it yet bluelet SMN?

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so what you're saying by that is, that WAR SHOULD be buffed despite their ease of play.
Because The GNB over WAR one was not an example of a permissible gap.
That just because it's easy to play, doesn't mean it shouldn't be viable.

again, thank you for contradicting yourself.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

This is what we in the know refer to as a non point. It doesn't matter if anyone asked for it or not, what matters is what IS. Ease of play MUST affect Job balance, otherwise you are penalizing skill

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Other than that... oh yeah. They're making some pieces dyeable. I hope this will extend to other undyeable pieces like those pieces from ARR, HW, and StB Alliance Raids, Woad set, Valkyrie set, Plague Doctor, Arhat, etc etc... you name it!

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All of the now dyeable pieces already had crafted color variants that were dyeable, so I assume they were chosen mostly because it was easier then giving a completely new set that treatment.

I think I'd probably want to see the Arhat pieces dyeable the most out of the mentioned, though.

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Originally Posted by hagare

daw. Now who's making stuff up.
PS: SMN got buffed. The easy job.

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Not making up anything. And it shouldn't have been

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Not making up anything. And it shouldn't have been

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Originally Posted by FireMage

The fact you have trouble with SMN is making a lot of sense

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not making up anything indeed.
see ya later verfiremagician

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Originally Posted by hagare

not making up anything indeed.
see ya later verfiremagician

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I mean you being a bluelet shows you have trouble with the easiest DPS

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Originally Posted by hagare

so to you a literal case of bring the class is a permissible gap.
A case where one class is replaced by another because it can\\'t clear is a permissible gap?
https://media.tenor.com/q9crr_x6HLYA...-that-word.gif

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This guy has literally been poisoning the dps forums because he's a 1 trick rdm player and he's prolly mad smn got a similar buff to rdm.

They buff Warrior.
Me happy.

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Originally Posted by hagare

not making up anything indeed.
see ya later verfiremagician

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The fact that you are calling him by usernames from another website means you know how he behaves on that website. Stop letting him do it here as well.

Well, I'm not too surprised. Ranged and casters should be about 6% to 8% behind melees now.

Black mage will look good in speed clears further invalidating rdm/smn.

Machinist still sucks compared to blm/Sam.

Waiting for the next worst melee job to get buffs.

Although there's still 6.3, I'm at least content smn/rdm got similar buffs because they are balanced to each other.

At this point they should just make WHM a melee class in PVP, goddamn.

Miracle of nature was a mistake. The sooner SE's PVP team realises this and either deletes or reworks it, the better.

now can't do anything when in dutyfinder or cancels it and gives you a pentaly for doing so. Gives you penalty a for leaving it now even if it doesn't pop.

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

Well, I'm not too surprised. Ranged and casters should be about 6% to 8% behind melees now.

Black mage will look good in speed clears further invalidating rdm/smn.

Machinist still sucks compared to blm/Sam.

Waiting for the next worst melee job to get buffs.

Although there's still 6.3, I'm at least content smn/rdm got similar buffs because they are balanced to each other.

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Summoner isn't invalid right now... Not like it's the most used caster by a massive margin, but ok? as important damage output is SMN is proof that not always the top damage job will be chosen.

Not saying it shouldn't be buffed but BLM changes were also needed, likely not even enough because people will still use Smn way more then other casters. RDM wont be used as much still.

I like that WHM nerf in PvP, definitely needed it.

These PvE changes leave much to be desired. Shifting the numbers around isn't enough. Not for ranged and casters anyway.

I would try to be excited for the Reaper buffs but Lemure Slice is still too weak and not on par with Bloodstalk. At all.

I think that Plentiful Harvest and Communio buffs is just to make RPR slightly better now that it's fallen behind in the DPS rat race but ultimately is balanced around Trials/Raids.

And you only get the 1k potency if you get 8 stacks. It's really just one extra Communio. Which is great I guess.

Fooling around with potencies is just so underwhelming to me.

SMN buffs just give me more incentive to SpS build and spam summons more while saving the second Energy drain for 4 Festers and 2 Ruin 4's for some burst.

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Originally Posted by Fourbestintoner

They'll keep nerfing nin in pvp until monk and drg are the only melees worth playing, again.

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Nin is a one shoting monster in CC what do you mean ?

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Summoner isn't invalid right now... Not like it's the most used caster by a massive margin, but ok? as important damage output is SMN is proof that not always the top damage job will be chosen.

Not saying it shouldn't be buffed but BLM changes were also needed, likely not even enough because people will still use Smn way more then other casters. RDM wont be used as much still.

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I meant for speed clears mainly. In prog, its still fine between smn/rdm yeah.

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

I meant for speed clears mainly. In prog, its still fine between smn/rdm yeah.

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Speed clears shouldn't really be a issue or focus of balancing really, Theirs always going to be small inbalances and for speed clears the only thing that matters is damage. Outside of Progression BLM might be slightly better? but at that point it's not going to matter, because DPS checks get easier with better gear (something you'll have after clearing) unless your group is a speed run group, but again theirs always going to be a select few "meta jobs" for speed clears, I personally don't see a Issue with that.

It came across (to me) as more in general that BLM would invalidate SMN/RDM in general. But If it's only good at invalidating SMN/RDM for speed optimisations then that's a good point. Because it does, I don't know what the solution would be then to remove utilities on smn/rdm and mobility on smn... which i feel defeats the purpose of having different role types if they're going to bring the same thing and same sort of mobility/utility

Casters are always going to be weird to balance, SMN mobility, both "utilities" smn/rdm give vs damage output on BLM is always going to be a tough balancing act, as you dont want BLM to do so much damage that it makes smn/rdm useless, but you also don't want SMN/RDM utility so strong it invalidates a BLM.

They're really pushing for WHM to be completely useless in PVP, aren't they?