What was they thinking when they did variant dungeons and criterion

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Originally Posted by vanaii

Players are going to be upset no matter what he does, and the worst thing he can possibly do is allow forum riots to dictate changes -- especially when the content you've listed as "missteps" are not missteps. Allowing the riot to dictate design is exactly how you end up with a fear-adverse design by committee.

I don't particularly care if you like or don't like anything he's tried; I'm just thrilled he's willing to try new things rather than stick with the same predictable stuff everyone eise is doing. Maybe that doesn't work for you -- and it really doesn't matter if it does -- but I'm not going to ignore what the man did because it's suddenly cool to smear him.

I'm looking forward to what comes next, even though circumstances around Endwalker made me sick. I don't know what else to say.

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And what content asked to be changed? All asked here is to add to it the rewords that will make it last long. Look at all the other new things he did. Non relevant a patch or 2 later. This time a weak or 2.

Variant rewards are pretty much fine, I would have preferred better glamour options, having one set (that doesn't really fit any class and is just another boring "casual" outfit glam), other then that the rewards behind the variant aka easiest mode is great, I love how repayable it is compared to normal dungeon content, heck I'd say you had to even learn a few things in fights so I generally enjoyed the reward/gameplay

While I haven't yet touched Criterion, (I plan to in the future). Just looking at the rewards really annoyed me, I find that if they wanna do "end game dungeons" they should at least make the reward comparable to extremes if not savage rewards, It becomes "whats the point of doing it again?" which is true theirs no point (outside of fun) for doing the hardcore dungeons.

Disappointed, I like smaller groups but raids are always going to be took more seriously either way.

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Originally Posted by magitekLuna

And what content asked to be changed? All asked here is to add to it the rewords that will make it last long. Look at all the other new things he did. Non relevant a patch or 2 later. This time a weak or 2.

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This might come as a shock, but content doesn't disappear when it no longer has rewards for you to gain. It's still available to other players for the first time, it's still possible for other content to require it (such as relic).

The silliest thing is to expect every piece of content in the game to somehow be evergreen. I don't know if I would take people wanting this content to last longer to be taken as a compliment that what was added was a ton of fun or the players wanting to stretch it out are so mmo frazzled by rewards they no longer know how to enjoy themselves without a carrot.

There's a whole game out there. Enjoy the buffet rather than focus exclusively on the single piece of a new type of content that was just added.

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Originally Posted by vanaii

This might come as a shock, but content doesn't disappear when it no longer has rewards for you to gain. It's still available to other players for the first time, it's still possible for other content to require it (such as relic).

The silliest thing is to expect every piece of content in the game to somehow be evergreen. I don't know if I would take people wanting this content to last longer to be taken as a compliment that what was added was a ton of fun or the players wanting to stretch it out are so mmo frazzled by rewards they no longer know how to enjoy themselves without a carrot.

There's a whole game out there. Enjoy the buffet rather than focus on the single piece of a new type of content that was just added.

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I'd say the issue with older content is that as the game keeps going and keeps adding stuff and increasing numbers, the experience stops being the same. Not in the sense that "Oh, kids these days don't know what a good Coincounter boss was". But rather that the skills you had before are no longer the same. The job's feel is no longer the same, often due to them reworking it. And the synched down experience makes a lot of people feel like the content is boring, as their jobs have been watered down to their base classes.

Because otherwise, you're right. Hell, the Roulette system even encourages people to play older content and help people, and you have relics and other sort of content made to make you run older content and keep it alive. Not everything has to be relevant. BUT I'd argue that maybe stuff should be fun. And a sure-fire way of discouraging people from playing older content and leave it dead in the water is by making it/leaving it in a non-fun state.

I know suggesting stuff is about as useful as arse all, but maybe if they allowed people to have their skills while synching stuff down. Maybe if there were rewards added to those older contents to keep them interesting. Or, you know, just stuff to make people feel like it's worth engaging in them.

Take what you said about the relics. You're right, of course, but most people just unsynch half the stuff required. Light farming for Anima? PF a group of people and run Alex Savage unsynched. Running the dungeons or trials for Anima? Unsynched. Do Tam Tara for the Zodiac weapon? Unsynched... Khloe's diary? It gets Unsynched too and people spam the same instance over and over with those other points. So that older content isn't exactly "alive" anymore, and the people who run them for other stuff go for the quickest route. And grinding poetics is literally just a matter of running Bozja or doing roulettes, nothing major about that there. When Anima was content, it was tied to Tomestones of Lore and stuff, which demanded a bit more of a grind than Poetics do.

Editing bc lol post limits :P

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

People wouldn't need to White Knight if people's feedback was fair and balanced. If you are going to tell the developers what you don't like, then tell them what you do like so they know what they are doing right. "I like this, but I don't like that".

A lot of feedback is one-sided on this forum "I don't like this, this, this, or anything." Developers would be forgiven for thinking they can do nothing right and that everything they do is always wrong however much they try to please you.

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Hold it there buckeroo ;D I ain't that sort of hypocrite!

Okay, that thread was a thing and it didn't really work out that much, but there's a key difference between "Hey, you're doing a lot of flaws in succession" and "This is utter garbage". And people in these threads really need to stop painting the situations like that's what happened. No one said that.

The only thing that people were saying was that constantly looking back at their old glory doesn't excuse them from being called out when stuff does happen. It wasn't directed at the devs. It was directed at the community who kept sweeping problems under the rug. Otherwise? Yeah! I agree with you! The devs HAVE done quite a lot to be thanked for. Not many people will agree with what you're excited about, but that's alright. But the reverse side of that coin is being as fair toward the places where the game needs to improve upon. And dismissing people who say as much is just as harmful as when people only focus on the negative aspects.

...ok, deja vu... this was the exact same sentiment I expressed when I made that thread...

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Originally Posted by vanaii

This might come as a shock, but content doesn't disappear when it no longer has rewards for you to gain. It's still available to other players for the first time, it's still possible for other content to require it (such as relic).

The silliest thing is to expect every piece of content in the game to somehow be evergreen. I don't know if I would take people wanting this content to last longer to be taken as a compliment that what was added was a ton of fun or the players wanting to stretch it out are so mmo frazzled by rewards they no longer know how to enjoy themselves without a carrot.

There's a whole game out there. Enjoy the buffet rather than focus exclusively on the single piece of a new type of content that was just added.

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Ok as some one that wanted to do older raids on a new character I play now it was hell. Each thing take over 30 min to get in to it at all. Things like old raids/trials. Deep dungeons are not even possible to find a party for. So as long as it's there the people you need for it are not.and turn ff14 in to a solo game won't help it.

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

I genuinely wouldn't be surprised if some of the forum's white knights were paid by Square Enix to do what they do. Sometimes what they say/do is just beyond logic and understanding. Just don't bother with them.

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People wouldn't need to White Knight if people's feedback was fair and balanced. If you are going to tell the developers what you don't like, then tell them what you do like so they know what they are doing right. "I like this, but I don't like that".

A lot of feedback is one-sided on this forum "I don't like this, this, this, or anything." Developers would be forgiven for thinking they can do nothing right and that everything they do is always wrong however much they try to please you.

But most of the time it is fair and balanced.
What did I say that was wrong. Even the defenders don't say the problem is not there. They just try to spin it to be a good thing.
To the people that say "why content need to have something to make it live longer,so it won't turn in to deep dungeons.so new players a year from now can do it as well.

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Originally Posted by vanaii

This might come as a shock, but content doesn't disappear when it no longer has rewards for you to gain. It's still available to other players for the first time, it's still possible for other content to require it (such as relic).

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This might come as a shock, but most players would prefer to be rewarded for their time when engaging in challenging content.

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Originally Posted by magitekLuna

To the people that say "why content need to have something to make it live longer,so it won't turn in to deep dungeons.so new players a year from now can do it as well.

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Variant dungeons can be done (and arguably are best suited to being done) entirely solo. Each person who arrives at this point in the game will be able to do it on their own time, with no need to find a full group.

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Originally Posted by magitekLuna

Ok as some one that wanted to do older raids on a new character I play now it was hell. Each thing take over 30 min to get in to it at all. Things like old raids/trials. Deep dungeons are not even possible to find a party for. So as long as it's there the people you need for it are not.and turn ff14 in to a solo game won't help it.

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You're pointing to a much bigger problem that's brushed aside with "check the discords bro," and I wish I had a better answer for you. This problem is not unique to the new dungeons, and it's something that does need to be solved-- but I have no idea how it should be solved.

As cool as BA, DR, CLL, DDD (deep deep dungeon) might be, the best I can say in the current era to find runs through that content are "check the discords bro." Same with synced older content and such.

I don't really count spamming an unsynced trial to get a mount as "accessing content." I'd love to see something to incentivize actual gameplay in older content, but there's clearly a piece missing.

Merely adding a drop or two to these new dungeons won't make them evergreen. Something like (somehow) leveling roulette would need to exist to make this tier of content evergreen.

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(assuming the story is true and not a PR stunt

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its true. Every word of it. He had no idea until they came to him.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Variant dungeons can be done (and arguably are best suited to being done) entirely solo. Each person who arrives at this point in the game will be able to do it on their own time, with no need to find a full group.

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Yey play solo in an MMO. Yey. I really fail to get it.
Now what of the harder ones?

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Originally Posted by vanaii

You're pointing to a much bigger problem that's brushed aside with "check the discords bro," and I wish I had a better answer for you. This problem is not unique to the new dungeons, and it's something that does need to be solved-- but I have no idea how it should be solved.

As cool as BA, DR, CLL, DDD (deep deep dungeon) might be, the best I can say in the current era to find runs through that content are "check the discords bro." Same with synced older content and such.

I don't really count spamming an unsynced trial to get a mount as "accessing content." I'd love to see something to incentivize actual gameplay in older content, but there's clearly a piece missing.

Merely adding a drop or two to these new dungeons won't make them evergreen. Something like (somehow) leveling roulette would need to exist to make this tier of content evergreen.

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There one fix I can see. Give relevant new rewards for it.be it times or up to patch new crafting mats.

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Originally Posted by magitekLuna

Yey play solo in an MMO. Yey. I really fail to get it.

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Some people want to do content solo but talk outside of content such as in FC chat, especially because being matched with random people would give them anxiety. Maybe over time they will overcome that anxiety but it's a common anxiety to have when starting an MMO. This is the whole plan of making the MSQ solo content. It will tease interacting with others constantly to people who thought they couldn't.

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Originally Posted by magitekLuna

There one fix I can see. Give relevant new rewards for it.be it times or up to patch new crafting mats.

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Band-aid -- a temporary fix. I'm more interested in a long-term fix for a long-term problem, especially since this isn't the only content that's tagged with this issue.

Game has more content outlets than it has possible rewards.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Some people want to do content solo but talk outside of content such as in FC chat, especially because being matched with random people would give them anxiety. Maybe over time they will overcome that anxiety but it's a common anxiety to have when starting an MMO. This is the whole plan of making the MSQ solo content. It will tease interacting with others constantly to people who thought they couldn't.

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Why so much people got anxiety this days?

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Originally Posted by magitekLuna

Why so much people got anxiety this days?

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Have you been outside the last three, maybe four years?

Or doesn't the currently 6.5+ million deaths by a pandemic faze you at all?

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Originally Posted by Arrius

Have you been outside the last three, maybe four years?

Or doesn't the currently 6.5+ million deaths by a pandemic faze you at all?

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Why a over inflated number need to faze me?my mental state is ok.i don't live on drugs from young age.

I'm rather baffled by how they dropped the ball so hard on this.

It seems almost obvious that the Variant was made to have high replay value, by how the bosses can change(ability wise n such), along with how Namamo's choice grants more chests. Yet, there's not any rewards that are super rare enough, nor are there glam rewards which warrant you want to return, after 'One and Done' 12 routes.

The vendor clearly has several rows of different item sections, so it would also seem they at some point were thinking of adding more rewarding items, or even weapon glams but decided not to. Especially by the extreme lack of rewards from Criterion and its savage mode, is just utterly baffling. They either clearly made a last minute call to remove stuff, or they have become so tone-deaf they actually thought the rewards that were there was plenty to last 2 months.

I really thought, since they made it into 3 different difficulties, there would be special zone gear added for it too.

The Variant bosses are fun enough to give people a slight enough variety, if there were any form of farming incentives to it, along with Nanamo's choice, yet there's none.

Don't know about others but I always thought this would need to be their answer to exploration content in scope, and that this would last far longer than Island Sanctuary in replay value, yet I enjoyed 2 weeks of Island Sanctuary, maybe even a little more. Yet I was pretty much all done, after 2 evenings in this. And had no reason to do Criterion/Savage, since it had no rewards that would have enticed me to even try it.

I could easily have seen myself enjoyed it far far longer, if it had (zone)progression gear or weapon glams, or super special rare glams inside.

While speaking of glams, the noir set is really meh. Truly, what were they thinking...

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Originally Posted by magitekLuna

Why so much people got anxiety this days?

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"Why" doesn't matter. They just do. But part of it is just natural. People are born with different levels of anxiety toward things, even if you account for all the circumstances, life events and life style choices that affect it.

Half the battle is confronting the thing that makes you anxious so that it doesn't make you anxious anymore so it is quite smart to start people off with solo content and see if they dip their toe in further.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

"Why" doesn't matter. They just do. But part of it is just natural. People are born with different levels of anxiety toward things, even if you account for all the circumstances, life events and life style choices that affect it.

Half the battle is confronting the thing that makes you anxious so that it doesn't make you anxious anymore so it is quite smart to start people off with solo content and see if they dip their toe in further.

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It's not . Just the excuse of "all have anxiety" gets old

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Originally Posted by magitekLuna

It's not . Just the excuse of "all have anxiety" gets old

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Maybe some of us have already gotten paired with absolute jerks in runs and simply dont want to deal with that? You bascially dont know who you will get when you play with randoms. It could be a wholesome group, it could be a okay group or it could be a group of horrible people that make it absolute miserable.

Then there are the different playstyles. Some will want to speedrun it, others want to take their time, maybe even read notes if the dungeon has them. Others simply are part of a FC and run soley with them and their friends.

And then you have someone like me that simply dont want to deal with other people and enjoy running stuff with the NPCs or solo. I can take my time. Look at the scenery, even take a few breaks between pulls. There is nobody there who will berate me for that. And I dont waste someone elses time.

At least in this game you can build your own group for content. Maybe try to use that. I am sure that if there are more like-minded people on your world, the party will fill up and who knows maybe you will gain a few players that you can do more content with.

That is the great thing about this game. You can do it all with other people. And those who dont want to, can do it too.

One pertinent question I have is who exactly is this Criterion content even meant to be for. I have no real issue with variant, I'd call that a success even if the rewards are a bit more sparse than id like. Savage raiders dont wanna do it cause rewards dont justify the effort, casual players wont be able to at all. Extreme players can't even get past the first boss. So the fact the reward is the game's fifth(?) chair mount with a price that continues to fall on the MB is like a slap in the face. Especially considering the existence of Criterion Savage. If I was mr square enix, I'd do this:

Leave variant alone, add a couple more rewards in the shop
Completely rework criterion. All bosses on one route, make them do more damage, add a couple of mechs to each boss.
Move current criterion to Savage, cause rn both versions are practically the same, and rn standard criterion is closer to savage than anything else.

In doing this, you create a difficulty gradient, instead of a difficulty staircase where the first step is 8 meters high.

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Originally Posted by Lustre

One pertinent question I have is who exactly is this Criterion content even meant to be for. I have no real issue with variant, I'd call that a success even if the rewards are a bit more sparse than id like. Savage raiders dont wanna do it cause rewards dont justify the effort, casual players wont be able to at all. Extreme players can't even get past the first boss. So the fact the reward is the game's fifth(?) chair mount with a price that continues to fall on the MB is like a slap in the face. Especially considering the existence of Criterion Savage. If I was mr square enix, I'd do this:

Leave variant alone, add a couple more rewards in the shop
Completely rework criterion. All bosses on one route, make them do more damage, add a couple of mechs to each boss.
Move current criterion to Savage, cause rn both versions are practically the same, and rn standard criterion is closer to savage than anything else.

In doing this, you create a difficulty gradient, instead of a difficulty staircase where the first step is 8 meters high.

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It was asked for and intended for the WoW content creators who have long since been chased away by FFXIV's gcbtw behavior. Though I imagine even they would scoff at the pathetic state of this content's rewards.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Maybe some of us have already gotten paired with absolute jerks in runs and simply dont want to deal with that? You bascially dont know who you will get when you play with randoms. It could be a wholesome group, it could be a okay group or it could be a group of horrible people that make it absolute miserable.

Then there are the different playstyles. Some will want to speedrun it, others want to take their time, maybe even read notes if the dungeon has them. Others simply are part of a FC and run soley with them and their friends.

And then you have someone like me that simply dont want to deal with other people and enjoy running stuff with the NPCs or solo. I can take my time. Look at the scenery, even take a few breaks between pulls. There is nobody there who will berate me for that. And I dont waste someone elses time.

At least in this game you can build your own group for content. Maybe try to use that. I am sure that if there are more like-minded people on your world, the party will fill up and who knows maybe you will gain a few players that you can do more content with.

That is the great thing about this game. You can do it all with other people. And those who dont want to, can do it too.

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So you look for people that want to play the same way you do. I normally takes up to 30 min to find people if no one I know is free. I just don't see how play solo in the solution in an MMO.

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Originally Posted by magitekLuna

It's not . Just the excuse of "all have anxiety" gets old

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Gonna start off by saying that other peoples mental health is absolutely none of your business, nor is it your business to comment on it. I've seen some gross takes on this forum lately but this is some really gross stuff.
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As far as the topic at hand, Variant & Criterion are fun and I like how they were designed. Do we need more rewards to keep the content going? Yes. No one outside of brand new people & those who are farming it for the glam/to sell will run it after a couple weeks. I also would not be shocked if they tie Variant to the new relic weapon, which I mean....at least it's not Crystal Tower spam (gopefully). I look forward to seeing what they do with it in the future but it absolutely need more rewards (other than materia & glam) to push forward from here and keep future floors viable.

Second, as far as Endwalker vs. Shadowbringers, it should be pretty obvious the game has taken a dip in terms of being bug proofed/QA. I joined FF in 5.2 and I have 0 memory of any of their patches being as buggy or broken as Endwalkers have been. I can understand that maybe the flood of new people before Endwalker launched would cause some problems (cause it was unexpected, I don't think anyone knew what happened at Blizz was going to happen outside of it) so I can't fault them for the issues the launch of Endwalker faced. However, we're almost in 6.3, knowing they have a massive audience should be over now and they should have some sort of idea of how to launch patches smoothly, just like before in Shadowbringers. I really fail to see why some are just not acknowledging that they used to put out patches without a problem and now we're getting bugs each time.

Third, as far as this forum is concerned, yes it's a cesspit sometimes..I don't think anyone here would deny that either. However, as was stated before, the forum isn't a social media website like Twitter or Reddit. If you want endlessly fluffy content, direct your attention there. The forum is (even though it's hardly maintained as it used to be) a line to the devs in a way social media sites are not. Housing lottery idea? Came from here. I still remember that thread as an example. Yeah, people here are extremely critical of the game sometimes but we also have to be to see change happen since no one else is doing it. If you want people to endlessly praise the game, you don't want to be on here. We do give praise where it is due, don't get me wrong, but this isn't a place for 100% positivity and niceness.

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Originally Posted by magitekLuna

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Many people here deeply love the criterion dungeons BECAUSE they have no rewards. They want to clear once for the challenge and that’s it. They don’t want to have their time playing other games or AFKing taken up by a mandatory grind. Let’s face it, we’re in a big season for new games coming out. We don’t have time for replaying old content like criterion. FFXIV isn’t meant to be a “main game” like WoW is, it’s a side game. We log in, do dailies or weeklies, then log out or go AFK. We like to get our business over with. Let me play other games Square, I don’t like FFXIV that much and neither do you.

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Originally Posted by caffe_macchiato

Many people here deeply love the criterion dungeons BECAUSE they have no rewards. They want to clear once for the challenge and that’s it. They don’t want to have their time playing other games or AFKing taken up by a mandatory grind. Let’s face it, we’re in a big season for new games coming out. We don’t have time for replaying old content like criterion. FFXIV isn’t meant to be a “main game” like WoW is, it’s a side game. We log in, do dailies or weeklies, then log out or go AFK. We like to get our business over with. Let me play other games Square, I don’t like FFXIV that much and neither do you.

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I'm having way more fun doing it for the lore book. >: 3c but then again my favourite game was FF12 so of course I'd go for the text rather than the fancy outfits.
And I think that's the model FF14 relies on. It's clearly a game designed for you to be chill with, it's not going to be so demanding. And at the times when it is, it's very controlled (Savage/Ultimate) and once you do clear them, you'll have nothing more to do than the menial tasks. Square does let you play other games. There could be an argument made that perhaps this is unbecoming of a game with a monthly subscription, but eh.

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Originally Posted by Lustre

One pertinent question I have is who exactly is this Criterion content even meant to be for. I have no real issue with variant, I'd call that a success even if the rewards are a bit more sparse than id like. Savage raiders dont wanna do it cause rewards dont justify the effort, casual players wont be able to at all. Extreme players can't even get past the first boss. So the fact the reward is the game's fifth(?) chair mount with a price that continues to fall on the MB is like a slap in the face. Especially considering the existence of Criterion Savage. If I was mr square enix, I'd do this:

Leave variant alone, add a couple more rewards in the shop
Completely rework criterion. All bosses on one route, make them do more damage, add a couple of mechs to each boss.
Move current criterion to Savage, cause rn both versions are practically the same, and rn standard criterion is closer to savage than anything else.

In doing this, you create a difficulty gradient, instead of a difficulty staircase where the first step is 8 meters high.

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Pretty sure some people wanted harder 4 man content/a savage-esque experience that didn't involve finding a static or dealing with 7 other people so Criterion was born.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

because their opinion differs from your own

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When we can move past "majority rule" and "it's good thing bad because yes" maybe you'll have a sliver of a point.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

"I like this, but I don't like that".

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The fact that you're expected to present a curriculum of what you like to discuss something, anything, is nothing short of bizarre.
"Hey buddy, here, I still enjoy this and this, and here is my daily schedule... so don't feel bad, ok?".

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Originally Posted by Lustre

One pertinent question I have is who exactly is this Criterion content even meant to be for. I have no real issue with variant, I'd call that a success even if the rewards are a bit more sparse than id like. Savage raiders don't wanna do it cause rewards don't justify the effort, casual players wont be able to at all. Extreme players can't even get past the first boss.

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Variant has a solid basis and I would be happy if it were to replace what we now know today as "expert dungeons" going forward. Including a revamp of rewards and eventually their own roulette. This will "future proof" them much better. Of course given the current implementation, I doubt it will happen.
For what I observed, Criterion Savage is just Criterion with a forced no death speedrun. I would remove their existence completely tbh (no deaths, and speedrun can easily be reward granting achievements), and focus on retooling/rebalancing normal Criterion, with rewards appropriate to the difficulty they end up choosing.

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Originally Posted by magitekLuna

So you look for people that want to play the same way you do. I normally takes up to 30 min to find people if no one I know is free. I just don't see how play solo in the solution in an MMO.

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And what does it matter to you if people choose to play it solo? Are you afraid that suddenly everyone will do it that way? (Npcs are still slower and way more punishing than a good player run) And if somehow many play it that way, than these probably would not have done much group content anyway.

The solo part is a great way for more people to enjoy this game. I never started WoW years back because I did not like the thought of doing it with people I dont know. I hated having to do dungeons when I started FF14. And I was so glad when we got the NPCs. If we did not have these NPCs to run dungeons with us I simply would have done the story dungeons once and played more gathering and crafting. (Or found some people in other FCs that I know to run it with me)

So in the end you have two easy solutions: Go find a group yourself with the group finder and do it with them. Or find a active FC that will run these things with you. Having a static is often needed if you want to do the harder content.

And eventhough I prefer the solo playstyle I still found friends in this game. One I would even count as a best friend. He too is more of a solo player. Yet we both know enough other people which in turn know people or have big FC behind them that we could run stuff in groups. We do it for palace right now. We run it either as a duo or a trio. So if there is a will there is way. ;)

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Originally Posted by caffe_macchiato

Many people here deeply love the criterion dungeons BECAUSE they have no rewards. They want to clear once for the challenge and that’s it. They don’t want to have their time playing other games or AFKing taken up by a mandatory grind. Let’s face it, we’re in a big season for new games coming out. We don’t have time for replaying old content like criterion. FFXIV isn’t meant to be a “main game” like WoW is, it’s a side game. We log in, do dailies or weeklies, then log out or go AFK. We like to get our business over with. Let me play other games Square, I don’t like FFXIV that much and neither do you.

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Do people forget we actively pay a sub with these weird talking points? Or that there are massive time gated systems that mean we need to stay subbed, or to keep our housing?
People get excited for new systems coming out to help pad the in-between, but when it's a big let down we're often told "You're not actually supposed to play the game, Yoshi even said so."

The most rewarding thing for me to do right now is to sit at a Summoning Bell to AFK do Ventures and craft, because over the years I just see us culling things down even further until there's nothing left to do other than a 2 day gimmick released every 6 months, and MSQ once every few years.

FFXIV doesn't need to be a main game, I just want it to at least be a game.

I haven't really had time to run them yet and I'm worried that by the time I do get time I won't have anyone to run them with at this rate...

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Originally Posted by NekoMataMata

I haven't really had time to run them yet and I'm worried that by the time I do get time I won't have anyone to run them with at this rate...

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I have excellent news for you. The rewards from these dungeons like the Noir set can be bought on the marketboard. If you have a spare 600k gil, you'll have the coat in no time at all.

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Originally Posted by R041

Do people forget we actively pay a sub with these weird talking points? Or that there are massive time gated systems that mean we need to stay subbed, or to keep our housing?
People get excited for new systems coming out to help pad the in-between, but when it's a big let down we're often told "You're not actually supposed to play the game, Yoshi even said so."

The most rewarding thing for me to do right now is to sit at a Summoning Bell to AFK do Ventures and craft, because over the years I just see us culling things down even further until there's nothing left to do other than a 2 day gimmick released every 6 months, and MSQ once every few years.

FFXIV doesn't need to be a main game, I just want it to at least be a game.

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I think people misquote what he said. He said you weren't supposed to binge the game and poop-sock it, just log in when you want to, log out when you don't, without FOMO or feeling like you had to log on every day.

Otherwise, you have to log on at least once a week for weekly clears and resets, not to mention remain subbed to not lose your house like you said. And that's a bare minimum. So the game IS meant to be played, and has content if you decide to remain logged on and subbed.

I disagree with Macchiato saying that FFXIV is a side game. Any game is a side game. If the distinction mattered that much, then we'd be paying monthly for something actually inferior.

imo the real issue doesn't lie in there being stuff to do daily\weekly\monthly. The choice to log out and go AFK is there in any game, be it side/main, be it FF14, WoW, GW2 or whatever. You don't have to remain in-game like a match of League that you absolutely cannot pause. The real issue is in the quantity and quality of content, and whether they translate into proper longevity and if they're fun or not.

It's why as much as I agree with Yoshida and think people rushed Island Sanctuary and similar content that wasn't meant to be rushed, I also have to point out that the devs didn't have the foresight to prepare for the way the community handled it. They didn't prepare for it to have longevity, they went through it relying on good player behaviour. Meaning that while I see the people who rushed it as not having read the room, I realize I shouldn't use what the devs said as an answer to those people because the devs' design is flawed.

Christ that reminds me of Meteion. "Hermes wouldn't have failed had he had better forethought and prepared Meteion for her purpose rather than allowing logic errors to form"...

Longevity needs to be assured as much as fun has to be. Not for every content, not everything needs to last, and fun is subjective. But if we're going to be waiting this long and remaining subscribed all throughout, then content needs to be relevant and last a little longer. And one thing that helps older content remain relevant despite its age is keeping it fun and provide rewards.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

The question is though: Why does every single piece of content have to be long lived?

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One thing you really want in an MMO is varying content that is long-lived. Not a lot of the content in FFXIV is long-lived, and arbitrary time gates do not make something long-lived. It just makes it to where you have to wait a week to play the game for an hour or two.

Long-lived doesn't necessarily mean it has to be hard either. Not all content needs to have a static group and a month of practice. It just needs to have a reason to keep doing it beyond the first week of a patch. A reason that goes beyond it being "fun." Fun is only one aspect of it, and a grind does help at times. There's a fine line between a grueling grind and a fun grind though.

Based off of recent content:

8-man Raid Normal. Takes about 1-2 hour(s) per week. Only long-lived because you have to wait a week to get gear again. Fun, but not worth doing beyond getting the gear each week. By the time they allow you to lot more, the 24-man will be out and the gear is replaced.

8-man Raid Savage. Pretty much the same as above. I don't touch them during the cycle, but me doing them won't make them long-lived content.

Island Sanctuary is effectively done after 1-2 week(s) after the patch. Yes, they will add more to it, but is it long-lived? Not really, no. You can check on it every day, but it's pretty forgettable.

Variant Dungeons are probably the best thing I've seen added in awhile. I loved that I could duo it with a friend. Just finished this one though, a week after patch. Gear isn't really desirable enough to grind out. (Can't even wear the hat.) They said they'd add more later, but again, maybe 2-3 more weeks worth of content in an entire year.

Criterion Dungeons I don't really care about. Not gonna complain about them. I'm just not into savage type content. So for me, personally, it's untouched content that might as well not exist. However, it is content that will not live long for the majority of players.

The reason this becomes more and more of a problem, is because the time between patches keeps increasing. Four months now between major patches, and we get week long content sprinkled in here and there. Gear is replaced every two to four months. Hardly anything lasts beyond a week in a game where you could potentially log in every day. And their stance on it is "go play other games."

They either need to add new systems, or more reasons to do the newer content. As well as adding more reasons to possibly grind out old dead content, other than tomes or a roulette.

In a way, the new dungeon setup reminded me a lot of island sanctuary, in that I enjoyed it for a very short time, but now that I'm done with it I can't see myself ever returning. This is sort of problematic in the long term, because when enough people reach that "I don't want to go back anymore" stage, it makes progression difficult for people who arrived late to the content. Luckily Variant (i.e. the ez mode) skirts this issue by having viable solo options, but if you wanted to do the EX/Savage modes of it, you're sorta screwed. Good luck getting people to do that when the rewards might as well not exist, and anyone who did it for the challenge already did it and got that out of their system.

The issue though, is even with better rewards, this game basically implements rewards and then never changes them even when the environment shifts and those items aren't desired anymore. So if your goal is to create content with really strong staying power and you're an XIV developer, you have a difficult task ahead of you because you need to design content that's not just rewarding now, but will continue to be rewarding several years from now. "Glams" as rewards tried to solve this problem, but with Variant dungeons in particular, those rewards can be sold on the market and they're obviously getting cheaper every hour. It's easier for most people to just... buy the glam/minion/mount/etc. than it is to grind the content, so that's what a lot of people will do. I feel like the best solution they could offer, would be to include some item that people always desire no matter what, like crafting mats or something, and then when the next patch comes out, change the crafting mat with the needs of the player base. But then this creates the question of, like, "well okay but do we do this for all the other forgotten content that exists? Where do we stop?" and it's rather daunting.

The devs were probably thinking it's much easier to just make good one-time rewards and then call it a day like they've always done. They did it with island sanctuary, which is dead now. They did it with bozja, which is dead now. They did it with Eureka, which is alive with bots now, and so on. XIV is full of content, but there lacks a reason for doing most of it. And the solution is unclear. It is definitely a problem though. One that -- if solved -- could potentially revitalize several parts of the game all at once.

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Originally Posted by Avoidy

They did it with island sanctuary, which is dead now.

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I find this outlook a bit odd. Island Sanctuary is only "dead" to those who've completed it at level 90. It doesn't require other people to play it, provides a few interesting glamour items and mounts/minions, and is quite likely to be very much alive for all of those up-and-coming players who haven't reached level 20, let alone level 90. Same thing for the Variant dungeons. If it's soloable, and there are rewards people want from it, it will never be "dead".

It's just content that you can't do over-and-over-and-over again. And that's ok.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

I find this outlook a bit odd. Island Sanctuary is only "dead" to those who've completed it at level 90. It doesn't require other people to play it, provides a few interesting glamour items and mounts/minions, and is quite likely to be very much alive for all of those up-and-coming players who haven't reached level 20, let alone level 90. Same thing for the Variant dungeons. If it's soloable, and there are rewards people want from it, it will never be "dead".

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When I say "dead," I mean that the vast majority of players aren't bothering to run this stuff because they completed it when it came out and there isn't a reason for them to return. Like, if I go into Bozja right now, I'm sure there'll be a few dudes in that big empty map running a mini FATE train, but I still wouldn't consider bozja healthy and living content since most people abandoned it, the rewards haven't been updated, and lord help you if you want to do a delubrum to get your relic; you've gotta join a discord for it because finding people in game for that is a pain. You mentioned my island sanctuary example. Will island sanctuary always have people running it as newbies trickle their way into endgame? Of course. Is island sanctuary a bustling hub of content that offers replayability to the vast vast majority of players who have already completed it? Unfortunately, no. You get your stuff, and you're done. There's no reason to go back. And I guess that's fine, but damn... if I were a dev I'd want people to have a reason to go back to the thing I spent a year+ building.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

It's just content that you can't do over-and-over-and-over again. And that's ok.

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I think it's okay when the content is framed like Island Sanctuary or Variant dungeons, yeah. Even if most people aren't even focusing on it in their periphery, at least someone who wants to make it their focus can just complete it alone. But for a lot of the content in this game that can't be soloed, that sudden loss of interest from most of the community is quite detrimental.