Criterion savage, only for i625-i630?

We'll find out Friday night.

Yeah, I vaguely remember them mentioning needed a decent amount of savage raid or aug tome gear for criterion savage. And considering all the other versions in play, it would make sense for the savage version to be exclusive.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Hate to be that person but source on that claim?

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It's actually visible in the live letter stream. It says 610~ note the ~.

Having hard dungeons locked behind savage raid gear sounds moronic, but ohwell, I guess we'll see.

The reason people don't do savage is often because PF is cancer, and they can't commit to a static. The fact that it's hard doesn't have anything to do with it. At least not in my friend group.

Having smaller group hard content is the perfect solution, for non raiders who seek a challenge, as its far easier to get 4 friendos togheter whenever, but if u need to do 8 man savage raids for gear anyway, what is the point? It also limit the jobs you can use, since people might not have multiple bis geared jobs, making it futher inflexible, and I thought that was the whole point. To offer harder content for people who don't do savage raids due to reasons stated above.

wait a few patches for catchup gear then I guess.

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Originally Posted by Gullis

Having hard dungeons locked behind savage raid gear sounds moronic, but ohwell, I guess we'll see.

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Pretty sure they mentioned it would able as difficult as last savage raid tier, something where pulling wall to wall will very likely wipe the party and they're still offer other versions. Think the biggest factor will be what is offered as a reward for the savage variant, too good and you'll certainly have folks screaming im sure...

Now, correct me if I'm wrong. But if you are skilled enough to do a savage dungeons, wouldn't you be able to have some way to get tome gear? That would make having the min ilvl between 610-620 completely possible without locking it behind savage clears?

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

Gonna be interesting to see how job balance even works in there, tuning for 625/BiS or no. With raise being blocked entirely, SMN/RDM will basically be non-starter jobs to take; honestly caster in general will probably be the dumped role in favor of DNC/Melee/Tank/Healer.

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Value could certainly swift with this being a dungeon, could to see high aoe dps jobs, very brusty jobs, and possibly (given if trash is even affected) jobs with CC a tad more valuable, so range with slow n roots, or casters with sleep.

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Originally Posted by Hanayumi

Value could certainly swift with this being a dungeon, could to see high aoe dps jobs, very brusty jobs, and possibly (given if trash is even affected) jobs with CC a tad more valuable, so range with slow n roots, or casters with sleep.

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Seeing how they just gave all casters sleep in 6.0, I could see them having this in mind, as well as Deep Dungeon. Wall to wall is probably ill-advised in here.

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Originally Posted by Gullis

Having hard dungeons locked behind savage raid gear sounds moronic, but ohwell, I guess we'll see.

The reason people don't do savage is often because PF is cancer, and they can't commit to a static. The fact that it's hard doesn't have anything to do with it. At least not in my friend group.

Having smaller group hard content is the perfect solution, for non raiders who seek a challenge, as its far easier to get 4 friendos togheter whenever, but if u need to do 8 man savage raids for gear anyway, what is the point? It also limit the jobs you can use, since people might not have multiple bis geared jobs, making it futher inflexible, and I thought that was the whole point. To offer harder content for people who don't do savage raids due to reasons stated above.

wait a few patches for catchup gear then I guess.

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I mean there's already 2 other versions with a much more accessible ilvl requirement and difficulty level. I don't see what the issue is. It's basically bonus content for people who have done savage.
Also we don't know what the dps checks will look like. It may not be THAT restrictive, I'm sure they are taking in mind that 4 person parties covers a lot less ground than 8 person parties.

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Originally Posted by JetTaylor

Now, correct me if I'm wrong. But if you are skilled enough to do a savage dungeons, wouldn't you be able to have some way to get tome gear? That would make having the min ilvl between 610-620 completely possible without locking it behind savage clears?

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There are 3 difficulties. There's Variant which is basically "story" difficulty, anyone will be able to run and clear it. Then there's Criterion which is apparently going to be ilvl 610. This will be equivalent to Extreme difficulty, and you will not need Savage to access it. You don't even need tomestone gear, a full crafted set will get you in. And then there's Criterion Savage which requires 625 to get in. The 5 is important because that means at least some savage will be required to enter as unaugmented tomestone gear is 620, and that's the best non-savage players can get til 6.3. So if you want to run Criterion Savage this patch, Savage is required.

And that's where my gripe lies at. I havent gotten lucky with PF groups nor i can get a static that is able to get past ruby5/devour traps, so 630 gear is out of the question for me. Ill be stuck at 620 as i cant access the second ring upgrade .. thanks PF

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Originally Posted by Stepjam

And then there's Criterion Savage which requires 625 to get in.

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It was confirmed? Good. For the first time since like 2015 I'm not overgeared for a new level cap dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Stepjam

I mean there's already 2 other versions with a much more accessible ilvl requirement and difficulty level. I don't see what the issue is. It's basically bonus content for people who have done savage.
Also we don't know what the dps checks will look like. It may not be THAT restrictive, I'm sure they are taking in mind that 4 person parties covers a lot less ground than 8 person parties.

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the Issue I have is that this content might appeal to players who aren't interested in savage raiding, but would love some hard content to do with friends you can easily organize at any given time. (yes getting 3 other friends toghter, vs getting 7 friends togheter is actually night and day difference) I see no positive reason to do this.

I don't have much faith in the first two modes tbh, considering the first version is balanced around any role comp being viable, and the ex version being balanced around duty finder, meaning it probably won't be super hard if your going inn with 3 buddies.

there is basically no 90 content in this game outside of savage raiding, that is remotely fun or challenging, so locking the one thing that might satisfy non savage raiders, and give them more to do, behind savage raid gear just seems like a misstep to me.

Also is 625 comfirmed?

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Originally Posted by Mika_Zahard

And that's where my gripe lies at. I havent gotten lucky with PF groups nor i can get a static that is able to get past ruby5/devour traps, so 630 gear is out of the question for me. Ill be stuck at 620 as i cant access the second ring upgrade .. thanks PF

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Yup, there's going to be whole lot more complaints like this going forward. They made Savage more difficult with tons of shitty bodycheck mechanics while the general skill level of the playerbase has gone downhill, walling off everyone even progging becomes a pain. So, if this decision is actually true that Savage gear is needed for Criterion Savage then that will be the dumbest one they've made to date unless the normal and EX dungeons give gear for it.

We are technically missing a mid tier gearset, but in all likelihood it would be around ilv615...

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Originally Posted by Gullis

the Issue I have is that this content might appeal to players who aren't interested in savage raiding, but would love some hard content to do with friends you can easily organize at any given time. (yes getting 3 other friends toghter, vs getting 7 friends togheter is actually night and day difference) I see no positive reason to do this.

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You either need to do a straight stat sync -- not basing it on gear at all -- or balance it for savage gear, or else you run the risk that savage raiders will outgear it on day one. If it's balanced to be cleared with i610 gear, a party in i630 BiS is going to steamroller through some mechanics that should ideally be a body-check on them. And people like having "I got better gear, now this raidwide doesn't kill me / now my numbers are bigger" being a thing.

But moreover, the variant dungeon (and the Criterion and Criterion savage variants) aren't coming until 6.25; by the time we do get them, there's probably only going to be a month or whatever until 6.3 lands. When 6.3 hits, we'll have another alliance raid and people will be able to upgrade their i620 tomestone gear to i630 without needing to do savage; the Criterion savage variant will quickly become accessible to folks even without savage gear.

Now, I admit, I do kind of wish it might be different; I do have friends who I'd love to do the Criterion savage with who won't have the gear right away.

But I also don't think it's a huge problem; you have the variant mode (for folks who just want the story), and the Criterion mode (for folks who want a little challenge), and even if it has an i625 requirement (which I still don't think I've seen confirmed) the Criterion savage mode will be accessible fairly soon after the introduction for those who want to put in the effort to upgrade their tomestone gear, and will be accessible to everyone even with crafted gear as soon as 6.4 lands.

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Originally Posted by Stepjam

And then there's Criterion Savage which requires 625 to get in. The 5 is important because that means at least some savage will be required to enter as unaugmented tomestone gear is 620, and that's the best non-savage players can get til 6.3. So if you want to run Criterion Savage this patch, Savage is required.

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I don't think this is true.

Yoshi-P's live letter stream proved that the only thing preventing a person at item level 618 from entering Criterion Savage was not having 4 people in the party. In fact, there wasn't a minimum item level displayed at all, so you could enter at item level 1.

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Originally Posted by Gullis

Having hard dungeons locked behind savage raid gear sounds moronic, but ohwell, I guess we'll see.

The reason people don't do savage is often because PF is cancer, and they can't commit to a static. The fact that it's hard doesn't have anything to do with it. At least not in my friend group.

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People that have a genuine interest in challenging content in 14 will seek it out and complete it. I highly, highly doubt there are a large number of people that have some weird aversion to the games other difficult offerings, but are totally interested in the new 4 man savage.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

People that have a genuine interest in challenging content in 14 will seek it out and complete it. I highly, highly doubt there are a large number of people that have some weird aversion to the games other difficult offerings, but are totally interested in the new 4 man savage.

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I know plenty. Simply because raids requires either a static, where you have to consistently be available for a set amount of hours, for so and so days, which can be challenging for many people depending on life or work situations.
or you can do PF. yeah People love to PF don't they? where the challenge comes from getting a okay group, rather than the fight itself.

I'm in a chill static atm, so im good. but if I didn't have that opportunity, due to life getting in the way, there would be no way I would suffer solo in PF, even tho I love hard content in any game. Light parties fixes these issues, due to the ease of getting 3 people togheter, that can be more easily done on the fly with little planning.

I have plenty of friends in this game, That would love to do savage levels of difficulty in a smaller group, who don't do savage raiding for the reason above.

It seems so obvious to me, but maybe i'm just wierd.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

People that have a genuine interest in challenging content in 14 will seek it out and complete it. I highly, highly doubt there are a large number of people that have some weird aversion to the games other difficult offerings, but are totally interested in the new 4 man savage.

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I'm interested in challenging content, but I am also aware of how awful I am at playing. It's way easier to find 3 equally awful players to fail together with, than finding a static where I'll most likely hold 7 other people back for months until they get tired of my nonsense.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

I don't think this is true.

Yoshi-P's live letter stream proved that the only thing preventing a person at item level 618 from entering Criterion Savage was not having 4 people in the party. In fact, there wasn't a minimum item level displayed at all, so you could enter at item level 1.

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this means nothing

you can ENTER dsr with i580, but you wont be able to get through phase 1

we're talking about "tuned ilvl" not about "strict ilvl"

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Originally Posted by Gullis

I know plenty. Simply because raids requires either a static, where you have to consistently be available for a set amount of hours, for so and so days, which can be challenging for many people depending on life or work situations.

or you can do PF. yeah People love to PF don't they? where the challenge comes from getting a okay group, rather than the fight itself.

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I reprogged this tier from scratch on my alt recently, and reached p8s with less than 10 hours spent in PF groups across two weeks. I've PF'd every tier since Creator back in HW, and I view a lot of claims pertaining to the viability of PF with a lot of incredulity. I genuinely do not think it's as much of a barrier as people make it out to be.

In my overwhelming experience, these types of ideas about statics/scheduling being mandatory or PF being unviable are just self-imposed limitations. It's entirely possible to do all of the hard content in this game in a reasonable amount of hours entirely on your own time. This game has some of the most readily accessible hard content of any MMO.

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Originally Posted by Kansene

I'm interested in challenging content, but I am also aware of how awful I am at playing. It's way easier to find 3 equally awful players to fail together with, than finding a static where I'll most likely hold 7 other people back for months until they get tired of my nonsense.

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I would recommend just jumping into EX4 or P5S fresh parties in PF, they're very accessible and will usually have a mix of experience levels in them, so it's unlikely you'll be the only inexperienced player.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

I reprogged this tier from scratch on my alt recently, and reached p8s with less than 10 hours spent in PF groups across two weeks. I've PF'd every tier since Creator back in HW, and I view a lot of claims pertaining to the viability of PF with a lot of incredulity. I genuinely do not think it's as much of a barrier as people make it out to be.

In my overwhelming experience, these types of ideas about statics/scheduling being mandatory or PF being unviable are just self-imposed limitations. It's entirely possible to do all of the hard content in this game in a reasonable amount of hours entirely on your own time. This game has some of the most readily accessible hard content of any MMO.

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well, thats just the signals i've gotten from friends and others i've talked to. I'm not saying you're wrong. it could very well be the 0.01% minority for all I know.

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

You either need to do a straight stat sync -- not basing it on gear at all -- or balance it for savage gear, or else you run the risk that savage raiders will outgear it on day one. If it's balanced to be cleared with i610 gear, a party in i630 BiS is going to steamroller through some mechanics that should ideally be a body-check on them. And people like having "I got better gear, now this raidwide doesn't kill me / now my numbers are bigger" being a thing.

But moreover, the variant dungeon (and the Criterion and Criterion savage variants) aren't coming until 6.25; by the time we do get them, there's probably only going to be a month or whatever until 6.3 lands. When 6.3 hits, we'll have another alliance raid and people will be able to upgrade their i620 tomestone gear to i630 without needing to do savage; the Criterion savage variant will quickly become accessible to folks even without savage gear.

Now, I admit, I do kind of wish it might be different; I do have friends who I'd love to do the Criterion savage with who won't have the gear right away.

But I also don't think it's a huge problem; you have the variant mode (for folks who just want the story), and the Criterion mode (for folks who want a little challenge), and even if it has an i625 requirement (which I still don't think I've seen confirmed) the Criterion savage mode will be accessible fairly soon after the introduction for those who want to put in the effort to upgrade their tomestone gear, and will be accessible to everyone even with crafted gear as soon as 6.4 lands.

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In case you're forgetting: Patches are every 4 months. We're approaching the second month. There's 8 weeks (4 months) between .25 and .3. We're allegedly scheduled to get 6.3 in December 20th.

I doubt it will require savage BiS, but I can see the requirements being above 610. Even players that don't raid would have above 610 at this point because of tomestone gear and I believe this week is the week for the normal raid tomestone weapon. So unless someone is a fairly casual player or fresh to 90 they would be able to meet the requirements by now. I can't see the ilevel requirement being any higher than what you would have after a few accessories from P5S.

I hope it's tuned for higher level gear so there is more than 1 incentive (ultimate) to get BiS. I think ilvl620-625 is a good level. I also hope the Savage version drops slightly below Savage equivalent gear so we can have two avenues of gearing up alt jobs.