Ideas For a Paladin Rework

I think the 1% damage difference is fine too, but the way the devs made everything into 2min now, even if the damage output from 2 jobs were theoretically the same, you can have an 1% difference just being lucky/unlucky from crit direct hits inside the buff window, this is why I want PLD (and WAR) to be closer to DRK/GNB damage. Imagine if they changed PLD, make its rotation boring and easier, design with a 1% damage output lower difference from top dps tanks, but because DRK/GNB capitalize better from party buffs, PLD would be behind 2~3% from a aDPS perspective and everyone will meme about PLD being bad again.

Tbh I want the rotation to be as close as possible from what we already have, but to be able to fit our big moves on the buff window, and kill the -18 FoF opener please. What I want the most (and fear they won't touch) is the mitigation aspect, like we already talked a bunch: cover, bleeds, invul.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Not Like Intervention is the shared equivalent of just using a something like HOC or TBN on a party member... wait it is but it's slightly worse then the one for yourself.. that's great! Even storing 2 so you can use one on the MT and self is so redundant, Warrior gets the heal effect on both and the MIT for the MT, they could just use rampart and that's a better effect, lets ignore that drk can use oblation and TBN and gunbreaker can use auora and HOC.

Intervention isn't a 3rd CD, it's just Holy shelltron for a friend enough said.

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Alright look, I think both of us are not talking on the same page here, even though we are talking about the same mitigation, I don't think we have the same content in mind. My previous comment is written with my previous experience in savage and ultimate content, where both tanks are going to take 250.000 damage in a single hit ( DSR ) or a 110.000 Tankbuster Damage followed by 33.000 x 5 DoT damage that totals to 275.000 Damage (P7S). If we are talking about that level of content, then PLD quite surprisingly have better mitigation tools compared to WAR/DRK/GNB in a single large hit tankbuster, and for DoT based tankbuster PLD is still beating DRK/GNB with WAR only be able to beat PLD if Thrill of Battle is off cooldown.

I also have the numbers to back up my statement that Intervention isn't just a Holy Shelltron for a friend. If you are willing to discuss it further then I would be happy to crunch the numbers for you

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Originally Posted by esra01

Alright look, I think both of us are not talking on the same page here, even though we are talking about the same mitigation, I don't think we have the same content in mind. My previous comment is written with my previous experience in savage and ultimate content, where both tanks are going to take 250.000 damage in a single hit ( DSR ) or a 110.000 Tankbuster Damage followed by 33.000 x 5 DoT damage that totals to 275.000 Damage (P7S). If we are talking about that level of content, then PLD quite surprisingly have better mitigation tools compared to WAR/DRK/GNB in a single large hit tankbuster, and for DoT based tankbuster PLD is still beating DRK/GNB with WAR only be able to beat PLD if Thrill of Battle is off cooldown.

I also have the numbers to back up my statement that Intervention isn't just a Holy Shelltron for a friend. If you are willing to discuss it further then I would be happy to crunch the numbers for you

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I don't think You can view Intervention as a extra because it's so heavily tied to Holy Shelltron, If you split HOC or TBN one that has a similar effect, both share the same Cooldown on a ally, while on paper it would be a extra CD, it's really not, if you made Holy shelltron targetable and removed intervention they would bassically serve the same purpose as it currently does (maybe reduce the recast to be 2 seconds).

Storing Oath at 100, is generally like having 2 stacks of your Gauge spenders, you can spread out its uses to both tanks but it will also take longer to get both back, of course it's a massive benefit and I won't try to underplay it, I wouldn't know the exact numbers but people generally say PLD takes the most general damage out of all the tanks.

Would be nice to know the exact numbers, To be fair I haven't played ultimate content PLD's mitigations are pretty different that it might work out better in some sorts of content, But generally what I've heard is that PLD's the weakest tank and it does generally seem to show, It's undeniable that some of its "advantages" are very situational and clunky, abilites such as cover exist, DV while strong doesn't need to be clunky, passage doesn't need to be either, even if it's "acceptable in x content"

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

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Alright so let's test the mitigation at 1 scenario. Which is the heavy hitting 250.000 Damage tankbuster that targets both tanks. And let's assume both tanks have 100.000 Health

For this all tanks have to use all of their cooldowns to be able to survive the tankbuster. Which is Rampart + 30% Mitigation + Reprisal + 3rd button (Dark Mind/Thrill/Camo) + Personal (TBN/Shell/HoC/BW/Interv).

WAR = 20% + 30% + 10% + (10% + 10%) = 59.17% Mitigation
= 250.000 * 59.17% - 20.000 = 82.060 Damage

GNB = 20% + 30% + 10% + 10% + (15% + 15%) = 67.22% Mitigation
= 250.000 * 67.22% = 81.931 Damage

DRK = 20% + 30% + 10% + 20% + 10% = 63.71% Mitigation
= 250.000 * 63.71% - 25.000 = 65.720 Damage

PLD = 20% + 30% + 10% + ( 20% + 15% ) = 65.72% Mitigation
= 250.000 * 65.72% = 85.680 Damage

So those are damage taken individually if each tank are only using cooldown for themself. Now to test Intervention, let's take 3 tank combination, DRK+GNB, DRK+PLD, GNB + PLD. With PLD using Shell + Interv, and the co-tank in PLD pairing uses their personal on PLD to maximize the % mitigation on both tanks.

GNB & DRK
GNB = 20% + 30% + 10% + 10% + (15% + 15%) = 67.22%
= 250.000 * 67.22% = 81.931 Damage

DRK = 20% + 30% + 10% + 20% + 10% = 63.71%
= 250.000 * 63.71% - 25.000 = 65.720 Damage

Total Damage Taken = 147.651 Damage

PLD & DRK
DRK = 20% + 30% + 10% + 20% + 10% + (20% + 10%) = 73.87%
= 250.000 * 73.87% = 65.318 Damage

PLD = 20% + 30% + 10% + 20% + 15% = 65.72%
= 250.000 * 65.72% - 25.000 = 60.680 Damage

Total Damage Taken = 125.998 Damage

PLD & GNB
GNB = 20% + 30% + 10% + 10% + (20% + 10%) = 67.34%
= 250.000 * 67.34% = 81.648 Damage

PLD = 20% + 30% + 10% + (20% + 15%) + (15% + 15%) = 75.23%
= 250.000 * 73.78% = 62.903 Damage

Total Damage Taken = 144.551 Damage

So from the tests above, PLD is going to be operating at the same level of DRK in terms of mitigation. Even if the co-tank is un-cooperative and choose to your their own personal on themself, the total damage taken will just be a little bit higher due to inefficient mitigation % stacking.

Also what makes Intervention unique compared to all buttons is as you said it can be stored to have 2 stacks. Usually on Savage/Ultimate tankbusters would be spread 60-90 seconds aparts. With PLD gauge restoring 1 usage of Shelltron at a rate of 20 seconds, a PLD can easily stock up 2 charges while still using 1-2 Holy Shelltron in between tankbusters

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Originally Posted by esra01

Alright so let's test the mitigation at 1 scenario. Which is the heavy hitting 250.000 Damage tankbuster that targets both tanks. And let's assume both tanks have 100.000 Health

For this all tanks have to use all of their cooldowns to be able to survive the tankbuster. Which is Rampart + 30% Mitigation + Reprisal + 3rd button (Dark Mind/Thrill/Camo) + Personal (TBN/Shell/HoC/BW/Interv).

WAR = 20% + 30% + 10% + (10% + 10%) = 59.17% Mitigation
= 250.000 * 59.17% - 20.000 = 82.060 Damage

GNB = 20% + 30% + 10% + 10% + (15% + 15%) = 67.22% Mitigation
= 250.000 * 67.22% = 81.931 Damage

DRK = 20% + 30% + 10% + 20% + 10% = 63.71% Mitigation
= 250.000 * 63.71% - 25.000 = 65.720 Damage

PLD = 20% + 30% + 10% + ( 20% + 15% ) = 65.72% Mitigation
= 250.000 * 65.72% = 85.680 Damage

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So... PLD has the worst mitigation of all the tanks because it takes the most damage. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You guys know pld can block right?

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Originally Posted by Commander_Justitia

You guys know pld can block right?

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You ever tried to block a poison or a bleed?

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Originally Posted by Mithron

So... PLD has the worst mitigation of all the tanks because it takes the most damage. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Have you sir tried reading more than half of my comment

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Originally Posted by Commander_Justitia

You guys know pld can block right?

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DOTs are not calculated on Shield Blocks, specially current tier busters.

PLD should get buff on the defense side such Holy Sheltron should block bleed or sentinel old mitigation of 40% back and gain old cover back due now all tank classes are somewhat busted nowdays.Seriously, pld feels like in defense side like we are going to hw pld turf which is bad. As for 1/2 mins burst windows, I'm ok with it but the real question is, are they going be busted as ninja with the burst or weak as smn rework. With the "Changes" they did on this expansion for jobs im expecting pld to be busted af due to ninja "Changes".

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Originally Posted by Undeadfire

DOTs are not calculated on Shield Blocks, specially current tier busters.

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Not to mention that you cannot blocked when stunned, even with Holy Sheltron.

Shadowbringers Paladin worked for being pretty much on par with GNB/DRK despite the primitive abilities. Could easily sync 60s raid buffs, early Veil buff for timings, cheesing mechanics with Cover, saving cooldowns covering your tank partner, but all in all it's DPS was on par GNB/DRK and can beat GNB based on RNGs.

Endwalker Paladin being bad for high end content is it falls off raid buffs too fast no way to recover without taking a hit against it's DPS, primitive abilities, button bloating under no uses.

If Paladin takes a tuning to restore it's rotation based on it's Xpac predecessors, it easily work again, and actually perform well.

HW Dark Knight was horrifically broken Paladin had nothing against it, this is common knowledge.
Stormblood Paladin was annoying to play but it perform super well and worked.
Shadowbringers Paladin was at it's complete prime despite the primitive abilities.
Endwalker Paladin is like a failed fusion of ranged with physical, a downgrade.

I prefer Ew PLD to SHB PLD. It's more fun in general.

I just don't think EW PLD is designed around endwalker, Endwalker changes were generally good the job feels more "complete" the problem is again PLD doesn't work well with EW fight design

If it makes you any happy, took a long time but a new rotation shown up for Pld which defeats the -16 fof, it's pretty cursed.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...44/unknown.png

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Originally Posted by Undeadfire

If it makes you any happy, took a long time but a new rotation shown up for Pld which defeats the -16 fof, it's pretty cursed.

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It's because they keep buffing paladin's magic damage and ignoring their physical portion. If they made Requiescat grant 6 stacks instead of 5, you wouldn't even need that extra Goring Blade every 3 minutes with a 2.50s GCD. Right now, if you're lazy and don't mind the small DPS loss, you could even just slow cast a Holy Spirit every minute to keep the rotation at 60 seconds.

It'd be amusing to see a dance partner version on Paladin that increases healer's damage.

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Originally Posted by Kemeko

It'd be amusing to see a dance partner version on Paladin that increases healer's damage.

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You press the clemency button and increase you're own healing per second!

This would be? ok? I rather not be dependent (even if it's a little bit) on my healers skill level personally, I generally like that I can play PLD in casual content without having to be dependent on others and it's a mixed bag what sort of healer you can get, with stuff like buffing a astro's damage compared to a white mages or sages damage would be way different. I don't know buffing damage doesn't feel like something that would make PLD more fun for me personally. I would actually like to see a new tank give out raid damage buffs (As we don't have one currently)

Mind you I like jobs that buff others damage and stuff, but I go to those jobs more with friends more often.

that rotation is only viable now since the current Tank BiS has basically 0 skill speed

I mean...yea...what do you think prompted the slowboi rotation to exist in the first place lol

One of the only ways to get rid of burst windows is to remove group buffs. Years ago, we'd line up group buffs like Chain and Battle Litany and then go ham in those windows. But not all jobs could line up with that. SE's solution was to just make more jobs line up to have their burst damage in that same window while adding a few more group buffs along the way.

Remove the group buffs, remove the windows entirely. Everyone just does their own thing. It's an MMO after all... why should we have to work with other players :(

I'd rather just see PLD's issues finally excuse universally beneficial changes and provide a bare minimum of change necessary to help prevent rotational drift.

• Skill Speed and Spell Speed merged.
• Confiteor deals an additional 40 potency per remaining charge of Requiescat, to a maximum of 100. (Further tuning required.)
• Melee Mastery II also increases Goring Blade's damage-over-time potency from 65 to 80.
• Goring Blade and Blade of Valor deal an additional 20 potency per second of duration remaining on Goring Blade or Blade of Valor, to a maximum of 100. (This allows up to 5 seconds time to be trimmed at 75% efficiency.)

That's it. No removal of alternating phases. No consolidation towards a dull-standard 2-minute macrorotation.

Edit: Additionally, again have Clemency's potency be increased by Requiescat.

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Originally Posted by Khan_Sado

theorycrafting stuff.

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If the rework is something like that I could live with it. Unfortunately I suspect they're just going to make it warrior #3.