Updating the Coils of Bahamut

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Other MMOs have had raids that were just one room with a boss, too. Just in WoW, there was Onyxia's Lair, Gruul's Lair (technically two rooms, but still), the Eye of Eternity, the Obsidian Sanctum, the Vault of Archavon, and a bunch more I can't remember. We have alliance raids for more dungeon-y runs.

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Even as the shortest raid in the game, Onyxia had a long hallway with trash capable of wiping you. Gruul's had an antechamber with trash capable of wiping you. Almost all FF14 raids are even shorter than these, and the few that are the same length as Onyxia have just been nominated in this thread for trimming to remove the exact parts that make it feel like you're breaking into an enemy facility rather than stepping off a tour bus.

It would definitely be nice to have them updated, I had to miss the story for 40 levels until I could come back at 90 to unsync them solo.
Having the option to do them while on the intended level, and not just asking someone in NN to one shot everything for you at 90 would definitely be welcome.

For the people who are against it, do you play these? how often are you going back to replay these? run them synced? queueing up in duty finder to bring newbies through the experience?
Probably not at all, these aren't run becuse they're just flat out too hard for what they are as story content and no one wants to do them. If that's the case then it'd be better to just redo the fights so they can be done in DF once again.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Sounds like you guys are a bit upset that the dungeons are no longer as braindead as they once were.

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Considering that 1) I actually enjoy the new boss fights and 2) I've personally complained on these very forums on more than on occasion about how stupidly faceroll dungeons had become with the release of EW, you couldn't be more wrong. But if you want to just make stuff up to feed forum sycophants than have at it.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I'm not sure why you're thinking the story would need to be transferred over to a trial rather than raid format. I would expect that the overall structure would remain: three lots of four boss fights, just like all the other raids that have come since.

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Because asking them to do it as a modern raid series means—as you note—three sets of four boss fights. Right now, while Coils is 13 fights long, some of those fights are little more than tiny dungeons, lacking any actual central "boss" to fight. So not only would they be taking fights like Twintania and Nael and so on and making them more like modern fights—plus, likely, rebalancing them for what jobs have at level 50 now, because a level 50 kit now is fairly different than a level 50 kit when Coils came out—they're also having to come up with entire new fights to fill the other spaces out in the tier.

Turning it into a trial series means you can take just a handful of the 13 fights—e.g., the more memorable actual boss fights—and update them. Now the story can still be accessible to players, but you don't tie up the combat design team to make them do an entire raid series worth of content reworking.

I'm in favor of making Coils accessible to new players who want to get into that story. I'm also in favor of not tying up the combat design team with level 50 content indefinitely; that steals time away from level 90 content... which is content I also very much want.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

I haven't healed them in EW, but when I last healed them (in Shadowbringers) I still had to manage MP. With so few abilities available I was healing constantly and just barely kept my MP up with Lucid Dreaming. Sometimes I had to use Energy Drain just to get some back.

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When the Retro Raiders did Coils during ShB, realizing I was actually actively fishing for Freecure procs as WHM during certain fights made me feel so dirty—even if it was necessary, as literally my only oGCD heal was Benediction—that it drove me to finish the rest out as SCH instead. (The other healer was AST and was not going to budge.)

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

Right now, while Coils is 13 fights long, some of those fights are little more than tiny dungeons, lacking any actual central "boss" to fight.

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I'm pretty sure that Turn 3 is the only turn that lacks a boss. Some of the others have a mini-dungeon leading to a boss fight, but there's still a fight in the end.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I'm pretty sure that Turn 3 is the only turn that lacks a boss. Some of the others have a mini-dungeon leading to a boss fight, but there's still a fight in the end.

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Turn one, sure, Caduceus is a boss... [ insert "I GUESS?" meme image ]

Turn two is just a whole bunch of minibosses, though I guess the last ADS variant will use the abilities of the previous ones so has a bit more variety in attacks; you could count it as a boss.

Turn three, you yourself mention; it's a weird duck by any standard.

Turn 4 does not have an actual boss, as I recall; isn't it just multiple waves of adds? Even if you consider the dreadnought a "boss", there's more than one of them.

I will grant that the Second Coil and Final Coil are more easily adapted, but I feel like the Binding Coil is something of a mess; if the goal is to take Coils and update the storyline to play like more recent/modern content, if you target doing a full three-tier raid series again, I feel like it's not as simple as just "tweak the mechanics slightly, chop Turn 3 altogether, and call it good".

If you cut the Coil story from the game absolutely NOTHING is lost in terms of Alphinaud or Alisaie's character development in 3.0 onwards. The only thing you lose is knowing what she went off to do after a cutscene in 2.0's early MSQ.
Players aren't entitled to every reward and not every content with worthwhile reward needs to be casual friendly. To hell with nerfing normal Coils yet again.

By the way the duty support msq dungeon redesigns are a pile of steaming crap covered in chocolate sprinkles and chantily because the only good thing about the redesign is graphical.

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

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Fair point on Turn 4, but we still have Alexander 2 that is just waves of adds, and now they're going the opposite way in dungeons and we have the first "boss" of Troia.

In any case I don't think they would need to change it. The primary thing to be updated isn't the structure of the battles, but their difficulty level and accessibility.

As for the others, Caduceus and the final ADS in Turn 2 are definitely bosses in my limited experience, mainly a few early attempts to clear via DF and then a failed BLU party (not the high-efficiency version) that couldn't get through the Caduceus fight.

Digging this up again after Natsuko Ishikawa herself said on the "The Annotaded Endwalker" panel on Fan Fest these cutscenes and their placement in the Coils raid haunt her, but also that people really should do these quests for the story.

If you want us to be able to do them, please, I beg of you, give us another way to do them than getting carried by a level 90 person or facing super hard stuff. Natsuko and Yoshi-P were worried about this panel because of the mechanics, how the mechanics are "all over the place" but.. so what? You folks create this stuff, change whatever you feel like needs to be changed, it's your very own game. :D
And you don't have to yeet the old fights, just give us a story mode so to speak. You did a fine job reworking old dungeons (for the most part) and are going to be done with that soon. So why not checking other side content, starting with the ARR Normal Raid and ARR Alliance Raid?

It's especially ironic how you cannot play this without having a lvl 90 person carrying you/being level 90 or going in at synced levels for a quest which would best be played right after 2.0, when it comes to the story. And it's very unfair towards all the free trial players who cannot create a party finder and therefore can only queue for it and wait forever. Considering we possibly get a wave of new free trial players soon with the free trial getting expanded, the number of people who cannot use a party finder for the easy way (unless someone else is locking at the exact moment they are online), this would be a very good time to redo them. Please, give us a story version for this raid!

I wish Coils were more accessible because they offer good story and it's the only time you really get to meet Alisae before Stormblood. She's basically absent from ARR and has an incredibly minor role in HW. I was lucky enough to have a high level friend who ran me through them when it was relevant to the story, but I think a lot of sprouts either straight up miss them entirely or don't have anyone to ask. When I was new to the game, I didn't think of using PF to do unsynced content because the game didn't tell me it was an option.

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Originally Posted by Minali

Natsuko and Yoshi-P were worried about this panel because of the mechanics, how the mechanics are "all over the place"

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Meaning it's not just the same ten or twelve 'stack this', 'spread this', 'we repainted Limit Cut again' mechanic types ad nauseam? Because the Coils mechanics actually feel diverse, creative, and experimental? Or because they actually cause damage to players that healers get to heal instead of awarding you with 0 damage when you successfully find the safe spot? I'm really curious what they mean by this.

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And you don't have to yeet the old fights, just give us a story mode so to speak.

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That's... what unsynced does.

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You did a fine job reworking old dungeons (for the most part) and are going to be done with that soon.

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Hahahahah. This right here is why I don't want them to rework Coils. The dungeon revamps have been 90% downgrades.

Much rather they just update the hint boxes to tell people that unsynced is an option.

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It's especially ironic how you cannot play this without having a lvl 90 person carrying you/being level 90 or going in at synced levels for a quest which would best be played right after 2.0, when it comes to the story. And it's very unfair towards all the free trial players who cannot create a party finder and therefore can only queue for it and wait forever.

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I did my first coils runs thru DF and it popped in about the same time as it would have taken a PF because a bunch of other free players were doing the same thing.

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Originally Posted by vetch

That's... what unsynced does.

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Have you ever actually done it unsynced lately? I did two runs with sprouts from the NN after EW release and you are missing out on literally everything that is supposed to be part of the experience, from small stuff like music or arena transitions in battles to, well, having anything to do besides just walking straight from start to finish in three minutes. In every duty the battle is part of the experience, and coils is no exception. Taking the battle out of the experience entirely or having people who are not into hardcore stuff (which is still a very large number of people, especially in low levels) running into tons of brick walls is a pretty horrible choice.

This is not like any other story mode version of a normal raid like Alex, Omega, Eden and now Panda. Yes, these are not savage unreal ultimate levels of fights, but they are still having you do something. It's not just watching cutscenes, which would be a movie, not a game. In Coils it's all or nothing and there is no good reason for keeping it that way. And as said, they don't have to take out the old stuff for this, just offer an additional mode on the same difficulty level as the normal version of every other normal raid. Apart from this, I didn't say anywhere what mechanics might be problematic, I just said they voiced some concerns about some, no clue which ones they mean. Maybe they would just keep most of it.

Anyway, you are making a lot of assumptions about how absolutely horrible a rework would probably look like from a post that's just "please make this raid accessible".

Turn 3 is the one that sticks out the most to me its just a hallway jump puzzle could be just a regular instance,
They definitely need a more normal mode variant for newer players,
just keep the ones we have now and label them as Extreme version (because coils already has a savage version)or even call them (Legacy) version.

Even with the thread necroed, I don't see a reason why it has to be kept at its current difficulty when getting a run is as difficult on-level as it is.

No one is doing consistent min-ilvl runs of this content, no one would really be affected were it to be nerfed and stuck in a roulette so people can do it at level 50 and on the free trial. There's maybe 1 min-ilvl run every 6 months and those people can just suffer if it means letting sprouts actually see the story.

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Originally Posted by Minali

Have you ever actually done it unsynced lately? I did two runs with sprouts from the NN after EW release and you are missing out on literally everything that is supposed to be part of the experience, from small stuff like music or arena transitions in battles to, well, having anything to do besides just walking straight from start to finish in three minutes. In every duty the battle is part of the experience, and coils is no exception.

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First tier of Alex Normal would like a word. Moggle Mog trial would like a word. Go queue for Mog normal and tell me that you're experiencing a battle when your ilvl 130 party bulldozes it before half of the new limp-noodle mechanics can even go off. That's reworked content, by the way, and the battle devs completely failed to levelsync and stat it properly.

If you want Coils to have battles to experience, ask them to leave it alone.

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Anyway, you are making a lot of assumptions about how absolutely horrible a rework would probably look like from a post that's just "please make this raid accessible".

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Yes? I'm allowed to make such assumptions after having seen their dungeon and Mog trial reworks.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

Even with the thread necroed, I don't see a reason why it has to be kept at its current difficulty when getting a run is as difficult on-level as it is.

No one is doing consistent min-ilvl runs of this content, no one would really be affected were it to be nerfed and stuck in a roulette so people can do it at level 50 and on the free trial. There's maybe 1 min-ilvl run every 6 months and those people can just suffer if it means letting sprouts actually see the story.

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It's absolutely easy to get a Coils together. They pop in DF all the time because sprouts don't know any better than to queue them in DF, they're in PF a bunch, and there are lots of in-game fellowships and discords that run pick-up groups and statics for synced and MINE.

Did you only look on Dynamis before deciding that Coils groups never happen, or did you not look at all?

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Originally Posted by vetch

It's absolutely easy to get a Coils together. They pop in DF all the time because sprouts don't know any better than to queue them in DF, they're in PF a bunch, and there are lots of in-game fellowships and discords that run pick-up groups and statics for synced and MINE.

Did you only look on Dynamis before deciding that Coils groups never happen, or did you not look at all?

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It is in no way easy to get a party together on-level for coils. I tried when I was 50 on the free trial on Primal. Free Trials cannot make PFs and cannot use /tell to ask other players to make one for them. Really all they can do is queue DF and hope someone maybe makes a PF.
This is an absolute lie if you're going to try to present it as being easy for level 50 players to get a coils group together. I've tried when I was at 50 and I gave up after weeks of trying to get a group in DF and being unable to make PFs.
It's so hard that the devs even made a note at fanfest that they regret having story content locked behind it because of that. I eventually gave up and ran through it at 90 but there's no reason you should have to wait until endwalker to have Alisae properly introduced and the conclusion of Louisoix's story.

Four months ago I got a full party going for Coils and Second Coils synced in just one day, and I used the party finder for that. We gathered and finished the runs in the same day.
Just because you need to do actual communication instead of clicking join in the DF and then seeing it all play out perfectly doesn't mean it's anywhere near to impossible to do them as is.

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

Four months ago I got a full party going for Coils and Second Coils synced in just one day, and I used the party finder for that. We gathered and finished the runs in the same day.
Just because you need to do actual communication instead of clicking join in the DF and then seeing it all play out perfectly doesn't mean it's anywhere near to impossible to do them as is.

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"I used the party finder for that" is the important point here: Free trial players cannot create a party finder, only join, and they aren't exactly appearing every hour on all datacenters, ready for sprouts to jump in.

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

Four months ago I got a full party going for Coils and Second Coils synced in just one day, and I used the party finder for that. We gathered and finished the runs in the same day.
Just because you need to do actual communication instead of clicking join in the DF and then seeing it all play out perfectly doesn't mean it's anywhere near to impossible to do them as is.

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Free trial players cannot do "actual communication" the game stops them from sending messages to players and from making PFs. It's a lesson learned long ago that you can't lock story content behind requiring PF and this just needs to be changed to follow that.
It at least needs to be tweaked enough to be put in normal raid roulette.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

Free trial players cannot do "actual communication" the game stops them from sending messages to players and from making PFs. It's a lesson learned long ago that you can't lock story content behind requiring PF and this just needs to be changed to follow that.
It at least needs to be tweaked enough to be put in normal raid roulette.

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Its almost like its there to encourage you to, gasp, buy the game.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Its almost like its there to encourage you to, gasp, buy the game.

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Then what's the point of having the trial go 20+ levels beyond and 2 expansions past that content?

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Butchered? By making people actually have to do mechanics? The horror! I think they handled them well.

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Not only is the MSQ roulette better but they even made the double shield guy who was an absolute joke one of THE best one on one duels in the game.

If they did Coils in the same manner I would definitely do Coils more often.

If coils could get a telegraph update to match current raids, without nerfing the difficulty into oblivion like they do to every other piece of content in the game, i'm all for it.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

Then what's the point of having the trial go 20+ levels beyond and 2 expansions past that content?

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To get you interested in the game and invested in it enough to buy the game.


Tease you on content. Etc.


The free trial will always be gimped when it comes to completing party-based content like Savage.

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Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE

If coils could get a telegraph update to match current raids, without nerfing the difficulty into oblivion like they do to every other piece of content in the game, i'm all for it.

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This is what's confusing to me. Who legitimately is still using Coils as a measure of anything anymore? The raids launched 10 years ago and are so underpopulated there are maybe a half dozen runs per month of it.
What is the real harm in nerfing the content? Why is everyone so terrified of nerfing content that has been irrelevant and dead to the game, other than cutscenes, for close to 8 years now?

If half of the people concerned with "nerfing the difficulty into oblivion" actually ran the content semi-regularly we wouldn't even be having the conversation.

It's an older thread so I imagine this solution has already been proposed but why not just make a story mode version of the raids, have the initial questline unlock those, and then have an unlock from the Minstrel to unlock the original versions? This keeps the original content intact for anyone who wishes to experience it in the way it was initially intended to be, but also allows newer players to experience the story. I think everyone wins with this solution.

You wouldn't even need to rename the old raids, you could just name the new ones "The Binding Coil of Bahamut - Turn x (Story)" or something like that.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

It is in no way easy to get a party together on-level for coils. I tried when I was 50 on the free trial on Primal. Free Trials cannot make PFs and cannot use /tell to ask other players to make one for them. Really all they can do is queue DF and hope someone maybe makes a PF.

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Cool anecdote. I tried when I was 50 on the trial and DID get groups, on Crystal and on Aether both before DC travel, on multiple alts. They popped in DF during primetime, they showed up in PF including as unsynced versions for me to tag along when I wanted. I even joined fellowships and CWLS and checked reddit for synced content communities and followed links from those to find discords when I got impatient to get a group on my challenge alt.

If you're worried about who's telling lies, I'll send you the two discords I use most and you can see people building Coils groups almost every night, and then you can stop claiming that Coils groups only happen rarely. Oh, you're opposed to third-party programs? You can't play during primetime? Go to Gridania or Ligma Lominsa and ask in Say chat if anyone would like to make a trial player an unsynced PF for the bonus tomestones. People do that too.

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I've tried when I was at 50 and I gave up after weeks of trying to get a group in DF and being unable to make PFs.

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You didn't use the tools already available to you.

This is solvable by adding a game tooltip informing players how to use the party finder -- in particular, the PF's search options can literally alert you in the chatlog when a group appears, which is wonderfully convenient for trial users. There's no need to encourage the devs to rip the guts out of an enjoyable raid series.

Now, if you could guarantee they wouldn't muck around with the originals and import a bunch of boring Shadowbringers mechanics into them, if you could guarantee that they would only build a separate, story-focused version, I might feel differently, but you can't guarantee that, and I don't want the content that I still do and enjoy on my free trial account to be wrecked in the same way they did when they stripped a bunch of the fun from the MSQ dungeons.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

Free trial players cannot do "actual communication" the game stops them from sending messages to players and from making PFs.

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Damn, the free trial bot accounts spamming RMT ads in say chat in the capital cities are going to be devastated to learn that they can't communicate with other players.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Its almost like its there to encourage you to, gasp, buy the game.

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Then letting newbies access Coils more easily would benefit that cause. They offer great sightseeing and the story in them isn't too bad, either. Plus, they could be the first taste of raid content to many.

The simplest thing to do would be to create solo instances from most of it. Key fights like Twintania, Nael, etc could be reworked into normal difficulty trials. That means all the chunky cutscenes aren't holding seven other people up and the story content is accessible to all, plus a few new fights for Trial roulette as a bonus.

Then just leave the legacy normal and savage Coils as they are and have them unlock once the story mode is done.

Edit: Should point out as a bonus this preserves Coils for BLU achievements as well

The difficulty of this series is vastly overrated by the portion of the community who never finished it synced.
Majority of the turns are not hard at all, just a matter of making sure the party understands ONE specific mechanic. The only actual hard fights are like, four of them.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

This is what's confusing to me. Who legitimately is still using Coils as a measure of anything anymore? The raids launched 10 years ago and are so underpopulated there are maybe a half dozen runs per month of it.
What is the real harm in nerfing the content? Why is everyone so terrified of nerfing content that has been irrelevant and dead to the game, other than cutscenes, for close to 8 years now?

If half of the people concerned with "nerfing the difficulty into oblivion" actually ran the content semi-regularly we wouldn't even be having the conversation.

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Coils drops what could be considered the most expensive raid drops in the entire game.

Twintania drops an item used to craft the Illumination Module, which normally sells anywhere from 3m to 10m depending on datacenter, and the only way to obtain that item, is doing it synced. It just does not drop in unsynced.

That is the reason people still do Coils to this day, because the rewards for it are a hidden little gem that not many people actually pay attention to.

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Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE

Coils drops what could be considered the most expensive raid drops in the entire game.

Twintania drops an item used to craft the Illumination Module, which normally sells anywhere from 3m to 10m depending on datacenter, and the only way to obtain that item, is doing it synced. It just does not drop in unsynced.

That is the reason people still do Coils to this day, because the rewards for it are a hidden little gem that not many people actually pay attention to.

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Are you kidding me? So the reason why sprouts don't get to see the story at the right time is because some people would get mad that an 8 year old drop would no longer be rare and they'd end up making less fake money?
Jesus Christ, the people who play this game some times.

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

The difficulty of this series is vastly overrated by the portion of the community who never finished it synced.
Majority of the turns are not hard at all, just a matter of making sure the party understands ONE specific mechanic. The only actual hard fights are like, four of them.

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Considering you still need all fights for the full storyline, it doesn't really matter if all of them are super hard and savage-like, don't you think? If people eventually hit the brick wall that is T9, when the more interesting stuff of the story is just about to start, they likely quit and then never get to the important parts. (And stuff like T3 that is basically just a jumping puzzle with some adds for example is certainly entertaining neither casuals nor hardcore players, so no matter how you put it I daresay some kind of fundamental rework might be helpful in general...)

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Butchered? By making people actually have to do mechanics? The horror! I think they handled them well.

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What do you mean people need to do mechanics? I can take a tankbuster As a healer in there because my cutscene finished faster and l just went ahead to pull the boss.