Should Level Sync better not remove skills?

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Originally Posted by Striker44

Unfortunately, hard pass from me. It would cause people who are actually the intended level for a run to feel practically worthless. I'm thinking the lower-level dungeons in particular. Hey, my RDM being synced down has his full tool-kit with multiple AoE spells and a high-powered combo. You, our newer player just reaching that dungeon for the first time, don't even have a single AoE ability yet. Entire packs melt and all you got to do was a couple single-target attacks against one mob.

Syncing the skills as well gives everyone in the party the ability to feel relevant, while still giving higher-level players being synced down a bit of extra power (since it syncs to the max level for the area rather than where a leveling player would likely be gear-wise).

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actually its the reverse when you do a daily and go in a lower level area your muscle memory is ruined since you are used to your job's full rotation. They can find a way to nerf damage in lower levels while keeping your skills

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Originally Posted by Velvet_Lunarfang

actually its the reverse when you do a daily and go in a lower level area your muscle memory is ruined since you are used to your job's full rotation. They can find a way to nerf damage in lower levels while keeping your skills

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Yes, it is perfectly possible to find some magic formula that could potentially make your job more balanced with a full kit compared to Sastasha, but then you would need another for, let's say........The Vault. You have a different kit there, so it needs to be balanced differently, or maybe Bardaam's Mettle, different balancing there as well etc. Now, do this for every job. Do you really think it is worth the time to achieve this when your jobs are already ... reasonably balanced at lower levels just because their kits are limited to that level.

To make it clear. The amount of time to so this would be astronomical and this is only considering level 90 kits to lower levels, in theory, you would also need to do this for each new action learned, which just exponentiates the time even more. I have shown in the past the PLD's AoE combo alone goes up by ~3 times potency on average from level 6 to level 90, this isn't including oGCDs.

If you really want to play something that won't mess with muscles memory, play Summoner. You basically do the exact same thing through the whole levelling process, the only difference being the level 86 trait and Ruin 4, otherwise, it is the same buttons, just different effects depending on your level.

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Originally Posted by Curemefi

In my opinion, the scaling on skills is enough. It would be much more fun if we can still keep all the skills while level syncing. What is your opinion?

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Would be great but i doubt it will ever be a thing, the main reason why i just do expert roulette and frontline. Low level gameplay is just too boring, worse, it's literally error inducing when you're doing scuffed rotation over and over.

Nah, too much work for high-level players.


Imagine scaling their DPS down to match lower-level player, you will have a player who do full lv90 combo for the same damage of a lv30 one-two-three combo. It adds more works for basically no rewards.


Don't fix what is not broken. If anything really need to be fixed, it is adding an AoE at lv15 for DPS, where contents that have you fighting multi-monsters become relevant.

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Originally Posted by Momo_Kozuki

Nah, too much work for high-level players.


Imagine scaling their DPS down to match lower-level player, you will have a player who do full lv90 combo for the same damage of a lv30 one-two-three combo. It adds more works for basically no rewards.


Don't fix what is not broken. If anything really need to be fixed, it is adding an AoE at lv15 for DPS, where contents that have you fighting multi-monsters become relevant.

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Add healers to the mix

Every class should have an AOE spell by sastasha

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Originally Posted by keichirou

Is possible, swtor has that system, it was kinda broken but after the devs Heard player feedback they managed to quickly fixed it.
But we know defenders will come with a bunch of excuses like they work for SE.

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lol, no, I play SWTOR, and when you go back late in the story at like level 40-ish to one of the low level planets and just roflstomp everything, no, keeping your skills while downsynched isn't actually balanced.

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Originally Posted by SnowVix

lol, no, I play SWTOR, and when you go back late in the story at like level 40-ish to one of the low level planets and just roflstomp everything, no, keeping your skills while downsynched isn't actually balanced.

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Why are you too focused on balancing low level?

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Originally Posted by Curemefi

Why are you too focused on balancing low level?

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Why are you ignoring the context of what I quoted being what I was replying to?

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Originally Posted by keichirou

But we know defenders will come with a bunch of excuses like they work for SE.

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We know this in the same way that we know that complainers will come with a bunch of 'brilliant' schemes with little or no thought to the amount of work necessary to accomplish balance.

Almost as though they work for Activision/Blizzard or Bioware.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

We know this in the same way that we know that complainers will come with a bunch of 'brilliant' schemes with little or no thought to the amount of work necessary to accomplish balance.

Almost as though they work for Activision/Blizzard or Bioware.

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Sorry they have to work to earn our money.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

We know this in the same way that we know that complainers will come with a bunch of 'brilliant' schemes with little or no thought to the amount of work necessary to accomplish balance.

Almost as though they work for Activision/Blizzard or Bioware.

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Square must struggle so hard to balance the classes when they are all just copies of each other.

They make their jobs easier by making our experience worse and yet still somehow we are expected to feel sorry for how hard they have it

Nope it would just ruin it for new players when everything around them just explodes in flashy aoes and all the stuff you get with lvl 90. Not to mention that balancing the jobs so they won't just blast through old dungeons on sync would be a terrifying nightmare for the devs. Since that way you need to also make the actions that are available at that level also weaker since the new players should be on the same powerlevel as you.

But if you want to use all your skills then don't do roulette and play current dungeons. BUT MUH EXP you would scream now. Doing roulettes is helping new players do old content, it is not designed for you to farm exp. That is the reward you specifically get for it, yes. So if you are unhappy with that nobody forces you to use this system.

Yeah the new player quitting the game because he saw a black mage using Fire 4 instead of being "Wow its so cool I want to do that".

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Originally Posted by Sesera

Yeah the new player quitting the game because he saw a black mage using Fire 4 instead of being "Wow its so cool I want to do that".

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No new player quitting the game cause old players onehit the enemies and they can't play, cause having all your actions will never be balanced.

Edit: Just to give an example why this would be a balancing nightmare. Lets just take Ninja as an example here, they have huton which makes them attack faster, this is a buff that would also have to be taken into account cause it isn't just potency but makes you stronger overall. Same with all the passive buffs you get over time on your actions, SE would've to balance or negate them all too. Or just take party buffs, they make everyone stronger but that would mean to make the dungeons fairly balanced so your party doesn't just insta nukes the enemy that would have need of tuning all jobs down at that level since you also buff the new players which don't have all the actions available.

So yeah it would be an insane amount of work to tune and balance all of that so new players don't get their experience ruined by old players nuking enemies into oblivion in the starter dungeons. Maybe don't ruin the fun for new players just cause you find it "boring" to do old content through a system that was designed to help people sync on old content and for exactly going through that pain you get the rewards.

So my thought on this is, if SE does that please also take the extra exp you get from roulette away, just 20% of the stuff we get now cause if it gets easier and faster there is no need for such a high roulette reward.

I can agree to adding at least complete basic combo and at least 1 AoE by Sastasha. But full skillset? Hard pass.

There is no way you can balance the performance between a newbie GLD who only has Rampart vs PLD additionally have Holy Shelltron, Sentinel, Holy Circle/Spirit built in heals, Hallowed Ground, etc.
There is no way you can balance a CNJ who only has Cure I that heals about 50%-60% of the tank’s HP vs WHM who has access to all their overbloated healing buttons.

Additionally, Newbie Tanks & Healers do not see their fellow rolemates in duties until lv50. Only fellow DPS would theoretically get that “Wow I can be like that too!”-moment, or straight up walk away because it makes them feels useless.

EDIT:
One of the talks w/ a friend reminded me that perhaps we could’ve gotten some sort of “Unreal Dungeon” roulette instead to do daily. Meaning this roulette will pick just about any duties in the game and syncs whatever that dungeon is to lv90 scaling. But I imagine this oughta require -A LOT- to make it work. Who knows? :shrug:

I really, really don't want to make a Google Slides presentation with the math about why this is a spectacularly bad idea, but every time this topic comes up I add a few more pages to the one I've been slowly constructing.

ANYWAY, that looming threat aside, let's just flood the forum with the extremely wordy explanation anyway, minus visual aids, because...

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

This is a good point. You don't just have to scale the level and item level like happens now, but the potency of the higher level actions.

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...it's worse than that, even. Sure, we can assume that they fix the gear/stat scaling so that you actually can make potency a 1:1 match between the on-level player in reasonable gear and the person level-synced down. (I mean, they haven't so far, but let's assume that gets fixed.)

The thing is that even with the 1:1 potency map, so that 200 potency is the same overall damage for both players, the overall potency of the kit changes. And the hypothetical ideal potency of a proper MNK rotation at, say, 30... then at 50... then at 90? Those don't scale in a linear fashion.

(Honestly, they don't scale in any fashion that can be charted with a simple graph function.)

And even if you somehow miraculously come up with a formula that properly handles scaling MNK's kit, it would be different than BLM, and both would be different than GNB, and... that way, madness lies. Especially since any time the job is rebalanced you'd have to find a new formula.

What you could hypothetically do is try to calculate the "ideal" rotation at every level where a job gets a new skill/spell/ability or trait, and then programmatically calculate the "ideal" DPS in terms of potency rather than damage.

So, take WHM... it's supposedly a simple one, right? In general, you have the same attacks throughout: a single-target (Stone -> Stone II -> ... -> Glare III), a DoT (Aero -> Aero II -> Dia), and an Aoe (Holy -> Holy III), all of which just have increasing potency.

Except that Assize can be woven in there (and 400 potency of AoE damage with no falloff is nothing to sneeze at), and you can use lilies to heal and get Afflatus Misery -- which becomes DPS neutral in a single-target scenario, and a DPS gain in trash pulls. Add to that the fact that a WHM without lilies is giving up a GCD every time they cast a heal and not regaining the DPS, so every time you need to heal the gap between the two in the total potency of damage dealt increases.

In a single-target scenario (and leaving out complicating factors like Presence of Mind), the first five GCDs of WHM at 90 work out to 1700 potency of up-front damage and 600 potency of DoT (spread over 30 seconds), assuming you weave Assize in there. The first five GCDs of WHM at 49 are 810 potency of up-front damage and 500 potency of DoT (spread over 30 seconds).

This works out to be that the level 49 rotation does like... 56% of the damage, in terms of pure potency, that the level 90 one does. So you'd want to reduce the potencies of the level 90 kit accordingly.

But even still, that's a vast oversimplification; as mentioned, there's Afflatus Misery and the cost of GCD heals to account for across the entirety of the dungeon. Plus, in an AoE scenario -- and most of a dungeon's content is trash pulls -- Assize and Afflatus Misery quickly inflate the level 90 WHM's potential damage potency, causing an even bigger gap between the two kits.

So we have to establish an 'average' level of healing across the dungeon as well, and then figure out how many GCDs the level 49 WHM loses to needing to use GCD heals; the level 90 one can use entirely oGCDs or lilies (which eat a GCD but are DPS-neutral in a single-target scenario and a DPS gain in a trash pull, thanks to Afflatus Misery).

Plus, we don't want those healing options to be OP, so we need to figure out the average potency of healing and then scale things down accordingly for the potencies on all the level 90 WHM's healing options. The level 90 WHM is going to be using Asylum and going to heal as a side-effect of using Assize; that's a lot of freebie healing potency the level 49 WHM doesn't have, so to keep the overall potencies equal we're going to need to nerf the 90 WHM's liles and, for that matter, their Regen tick, etc.

Still, let's say we come up with a good 'baseline average' for how much healing a dungeon should require, and work that into our calculations. This is hardly a given, but let's run with it. Now we can come up with the potency ratio in an automated manner; you can calculate the hypothetical 'ideal total potency' for a level 49 WHM's kit and that of a level 90 WHM, and a level 84 WHM, and a level 76 WHM, and so on.

Given this, we can now calculate that the level 49 WHM will, playing optimally, do roughly X total potency of damage across the entire dungeon, while the level 90 one would do Y total potency of damage across the entire dungeon if also playing optimally with their kit. Which means you can now tweak things so that the level 90 kit used correctly does only X potency across the dungeon, just like the level 49 one, and thus the level 90 WHM doesn't just vaporize the content in comparison.

So if X is 30% of Y, then just chop 70% of all the potency off of every damage ability for the level 90 WHM. Yay!

Let's say the 30% is a real number -- it easily could be, given AoE calculations accounting for Assize and Afflatus Misery -- so the level 49 WHM's single-target Stone II does 190 potency of damage (being on-level and thus the reference value); because a lot of your damage is in Assize and Afflatus Misery (and you don't have to give up damage GCDs for every single instance of healing, as your level 49 counterpart does), your Glare III loses 70% of its potency and does only 93 potency of damage per cast.

That just feels bad, as now you hit like a wet noodle -- sure, you and the level 49 WHM can do the same total damage across the dungeon, but since you have a whole bunch more tools in your kit, spreading the same amount of damage across all of those tools makes them each individually weaker than the level 49 variants.

Moreover, you are now operating on an expectation that both players are playing optimally; as difficult as it is to come up with the potencies to compare with an ideal use of kit, it's at least hypothetically possible (albeit nightmarish). Trying to figure out the potencies for "how the average player uses this kit" is not something you could automate in any reasonable manner.

And "playing optimally" is not a given in roulettes. (Nor, honestly, should it be a requirement.)

Which means if the level 90 WHM is not using their kit properly, they're going to do worse in Aurum Vale than the level 49 one -- potentially way worse. If you don't use Assize at all... well, that's potency the scaling calculated that you would use that you aren't, so now you're doing less damage overall than the level 49 sprout is. If you're a curebot who doesn't use lilies, your cures are now weaker than the level 49 one's are -- because it's assuming you're using Tetra and lilies and so on in scaling potencies -- and you may not even be able to heal through the dungeon.

And this is with a healer; think about how stark the difference can become with some of the DPS jobs. Even if you can solve for scenarios like "one of the two has Triplecast and the other does not" -- a nightmare in its own right -- trying to imagine how much you need to nerf the level 90 Black Mage kit to make the ideal rotation do the same overall potency as the ideal level 49 rotation across the entire Aurum Vale is sobering.

And I'm not even sure how you account for things like WHM's Benediction or, say, tank invulns in terms of calculating the potency of defensive/healing/mitigation scaling.

And then there's weird content like the deep dungeons; obviously, if you kept your kit, solo runs of PotD with a level 90 job could potentially be far easier than with the on-level level 60 equivalent.

(And I'm going to just assume for the sake of everyone's sanity that, say, Ultimates still just sync you to the appropriate level's kit because that is a balance nightmare I don't even want to consider.)

I hate being level-synced down; I groan every time I end up in the Crystal Tower alliance raids in roulette, especially if I'm a healer (or god forbid, a NIN -- Armor Crush being at level 54 is just cruel). I run the roulettes regardless because I know it helps others progress their own story, but yeah, I agree that no one likes having their kit stripped away. My FC has a running joke of "Hallmark presents... Wait, I Can't Use That Here: A Leveling Roulette Story".

But I feel like this is one of those things where, if we actually got what we wished for -- even just in roulettes -- it would be a cursed wish that we would soon pray to undo, every time we saw a freestyle level 90 SAM in Labyrinth of the Ancients doing functionally no damage because all the potency on their attacks had been scaled down around the expectation that they were actually keeping their DoT up 100% of the time, using Ogi Namikiri, etc.

(Though on the other hand, the overall effect might make mechanics actually happen in those raids again, so I can see one potential positive?)

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Square must struggle so hard to balance the classes when they are all just copies of each other.

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SE doesn't balance any of the classes in leveling instances. What they'd have to do is ensure your level 90 Scholar can do no more healing/damage/mitigation with your level 90 action bar than a Scholar at level 32, 65 or 73. And do that same thing for every single job for every dungeon instance under 90.

As Packetdancer points out in their post.

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

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Yes true, the problem there is mostly having more abilities at high levels compared to having none in Sastasha. Syncing the GCD potency to be similar to all the others at that level would be one thing because all GCDs share a cooldown but it's more complicated for the others. Getting an overall potency for damage and healing over 60-120s each at that level and distributing it proportionally among all attacks is a good idea, but probably complicated when different attacks work differently, such as Dream Within a Dream, astrologian's cards, party buffs, Chain Stratagem, Trick Attack and Mug.

It'll never happen, full stop. Given Yoshi-P has said countless times he wants everyone of the same job to be able to perform at the same output at any given level, there's far too many variables and problems to reconcile to make such a system possible without nerfing every single OGCD the job normally doesn't have at the level into dust that they might as well not exist. Take for example, hallowed ground. How do you reconcile the fact a level 30 PLD can't use it? Do you make it reduce damage by 1 so its non-existent to account for that fact? Keep in mind, Yoshi-P's requirement that two jobs of the same level must be able to perform the same, so letting the 90 PLD have it with any sort of immunity or even any sort of damage % reduction breaks that requirement.

This topic has come up again and again since HW. The devs have commented on it several times and saying no every time. The level sync won't ever change, full stop. It's too much of a hassle and a nightmare to balance when their current system works flawlessly for the purpose they want it to achieve in a massively tiny fraction of the effort, that also doubles as not needing to be changed expansion after expansion, whereas any formulas, scalings, etc would have to be adjusted any. single. time there's a change to any potency on any job, or radical toolkit changes each expansion. The devs know it'll be a colossal waste of their time to entertain giving people their skills back for even a nanosecond.

You're better off asking for an ability level squish. Give more tools to the player quicker. that way two jobs of the same level will be able to perform at the same strength due to matching toolkits in any instance, but everyone will have access to more skills quicker.

In short, these requests will always divide the players into two groups: Those that can see the math involved, even if only just a glimpse, and those that just see a jumble of numbers at best.

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Originally Posted by Daeriion_Aeradiir

It's too much of a hassle and a nightmare to balance when their current system works flawlessly for the purpose they want it to achieve in a massively tiny fraction of the effort, that also doubles as not needing to be changed expansion after expansion, whereas any formulas, scalings, etc would have to be adjusted any. single. time there's a change to any potency on any job, or radical toolkit changes each expansion.

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While I agree 100% with literally everything else in your statement -- likely no surprise given my own earlier posts in this thread, or my perennial threats to make an illustrated PowerPoint deck with All the Math which I can just drop in these threads when they come up -- I would disagree that the system works flawlessly.

While syncing skills works fine, syncing gear demonstrably does not; the ilevel sync in this game is extremely wonky, and that I feel could really, really use some fine-tuning.

As much as I would love to have my full kit, it would terribly destabilize the roulettes so it’s best to leave things the way they are.

Think about it, a group sees me as a fully geared level 90 WHM and goes wild in the dungeon. Same group and they get a level 31 sprout WHM in what gear they can find, don’t be surprised if they quit or kick.

The sync serves its purpose well and keeps the experience relatively the same for most players.

We need to keep the sync the way it is.

IMO the whole issue comes from how FF14 works as a whole and is the reason why I can't be fixed. Compared to other MMO 80% of the dungeons and trials are mandatory to do to progress in the MSQ, Back in ARR I had to wait 3 hours to do the level 18 ifrit fight cause I had to wait for 3 other people to be at the same spot in the story, that was an issue. So they made roulette that gives rewards, so you have to wait like 20 min at best as DPS to do a dungeon to progress in the mandatory content.

Now that creates a situation where you can't satisfy everyones

-Like many people pointed out it would be kinda boring for lower level player cause they get to press 2 buttons while you spam cool and complete mechanics with actual gameplay, but on the other side it's also bad design to get your thousands of hours in the game denied If I put the time to level a class to level 80 I shouldn't be nerfed to the like of someone who only reached level 20 so they enjoy the game.

-You can't do the math and play with number to make it so both a level 18 and a level 88 does the same contribution, it just don't work. If you just make the high level player deal more damage then it makes the content more ez, but tbh normal content is already braindead EZ so....

-Some people say you could just group with 4 other people who are high level, but it goes against the whole point of the roullete, making group fast to get content done. Plus good luck finding 3 other people who got a class around your levels.

-Some people say you don't have to do the roullete, it is not mandatory so just don't do them. IMO that's just a stupid statement, It's the biggest source of XP and Tomestones, If you need to level up or need some new tombstone costing gear you're forced to do them unless you want to quadruple the time it will take to farm those, and let be honest, farming level and tomes out of roulette is ABYSMAL for a modern MMO. In WoW I can max out a char in 1-2 days and that with reading quest and leveling in a sub-optimal way, in FFXIV I can get 10-20 ish level on the same time span, assuming I'm doing roulette then spamming dungeon as a tank/healer for fast Q

Hard pass. Dungeons are faceroll enough as it is, if they did this I would be able to solo most of the lower ones synced.

A much easier solution: don't queue for leveling roulette if you're level 90 and want to play with your level 90 rotation. Works like a charm. Even during leveling it's not much more experience than just doing the highest level dungeon available to you.

if every class had like 8 skills that mostly were just focused on damage sure. But that isn't the case. this is a game with 30+ abiltiies per class. How do you balance tank invulns and utility skillls like red mages manafication, gunbreakers extra 3rd catridge and bloodfest, and all the other various party buffs and non-potency abilities to be on par with not having them at all?

How about regens? how about classes that just gets more stacks of the same ability later on? (like astros essential diginity having 2 stacks at higher level, versus 1 stack at lower levels) etc etc.

try to think a bit futher than just damage potencies, and you'll see why this would be a massive undertaking.

A more realistic solution to this could be to unlock skills faster.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

A much easier solution: don't queue for leveling roulette if you're level 90 and want to play with your level 90 rotation. Works like a charm. Even during leveling it's not much more experience than just doing the highest level dungeon available to you.

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What if I need Tomestones too? Should I Ignore the 400+ ones I get doing roulette cause I can get as much If I spend trice the time spamming dungeons? I legit don't get you people who go from ''BuT wE nEeD tO hElP SpRoUt!1!11!!!'' Then when there complain about how the system to help them work you just go full 180 modes and tell people not to use it. Yea, who need rewards, let make them sprout wait half an hour between dungeon!

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Originally Posted by Magikazam

What if I need Tomestones too? Should I Ignore the 400+ ones I get doing roulette cause I can get as much If I spend trice the time spamming dungeons? I legit don't get you people who go from ''BuT wE nEeD tO hElP SpRoUt!1!11!!!'' Then when there complain about how the system to help them work you just go full 180 modes and tell people not to use it. Yea, who need rewards, let make them sprout wait half an hour between dungeon!

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If you want to help sprouts that way then you kind of have to accept your rotation syncing down. If you don't want your rotation to sync down, then maybe you just have to accept helping sprouts some other way like in the novice network and leveling some other way like fates, hunt bills, beast tribes or the highest level dungeon available.

There are other ways to get tomestones. Pvp, max level dungeons, expert roulette, first time bonuses for level 90 content, S ranks, hunt trains and maps.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

If you want to help sprouts that way then you kind of have to accept your rotation syncing down. If you don't want your rotation to sync down, then maybe you just have to accept helping sprouts some other way like in the novice network and leveling some other way like fates, hunt bills, beast tribes or the highest level dungeon available.

There are other ways to get tomestones. Pvp, max level dungeons, expert roulette, first time bonuses for level 90 content, S ranks, hunt trains and maps.

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Everything is fine either people don't queue for roulette and people looking to progress msq get stuck for hours or they do roulette and get a boring rotation and don't learn their job and at 90 they forgot they can use more than 3 skills.

I wish we could use all of our skills instead of not being able to whenever we do roulettes. They need to revamp it!

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Originally Posted by Sesera

Everything is fine either people don't queue for roulette and people looking to progress msq get stuck for hours or they do roulette and get a boring rotation and don't learn their job and at 90 they forgot they can use more than 3 skills.

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There is not going to be a massive decline in people doing the roulettes if they suddenly decided to get their tomes elsewhere, there are people who are willing to do the roulettes after all and do not care about the syncing.

As for 'learning their rotation', you shouldn't be learning in the instance. You should have already been hitting a striking dummy to learn at least your rotation basics before you go in. Getting synced down every time is not an excuse for not knowing your rotation at max level. This is a player issue, not a game issue.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

There is not going to be a massive decline in people doing the roulettes if they suddenly decided to get their tomes elsewhere, there are people who are willing to do the roulettes after all and do not care about the syncing.

As for 'learning their rotation', you shouldn't be learning in the instance. You should have already been hitting a striking dummy to learn at least your rotation basics before you go in. Getting synced down every time is not an excuse for not knowing your rotation at max level. This is a player issue, not a game issue.

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Uh...no? That's not how learning works. You don't just automatically get good when you have the knowledge and go out there and do the activity. Actually putting what you know into practice is part of that learning experience.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Uh...no? That's not how learning works. You don't just automatically get good when you have the knowledge and go out there and do the activity. Actually putting what you know into practice is part of that learning experience.

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What you have basically said is to learn the job as you go through an instance, whilst dealing with mechanics. You aren't going to learn effectively in that way. This is why you have a striking dummy. You can then focus on the rotation, learn where things go and then you can apply that knowledge in a fight where you have to then do mechanics and not have to also learn your job as you have already done that.

Why try to run before you can walk as they saying goes.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

What you have basically said is to learn the job as you go through an instance, whilst dealing with mechanics. You aren't going to learn effectively in that way. This is why you have a striking dummy. You can then focus on the rotation, learn where things go and then you can apply that knowledge in a fight where you have to then do mechanics and not have to also learn your job as you have already done that.

Why try to run before you can walk as they saying goes.

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Are you suggesting the only possible content in the game are striking dummies or instances? I learn my abilities and how they interact just from normal questing, doing FATEs, etc.. Put simply, you're not likely to get a random average player to spend time at a practice dummy. That's for people who want to absolutely optimize their rotation and maximize their dps for high-level content. For the other 95% of the playerbase, it's pointless.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

Are you suggesting the only possible content in the game are striking dummies or instances? I learn my abilities and how they interact just from normal questing, doing FATEs, etc.. Put simply, you're not likely to get a random average player to spend time at a practice dummy. That's for people who want to absolutely optimize their rotation and maximize their dps for high-level content. For the other 95% of the playerbase, it's pointless.

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Nope, I suggested the best way to learn what an action does is to test it on a striking dummy, away from other things that can distract you.

Also, dummies are for more than just practicing optimal rotations, it is just that noone uses it and that things is, learning the basics of your job and what everything in your kit does. I am a firm believer that that best way to learn a job is to learn the basics first, learn what everything does and why you use it, you can than apply that knowledge when you read about openers as you already have that underlying knowledge.

This idea that striking dummies are only for the rotation optimisers has to be stopped, they are for everyone and everyone benefits from them. Even whilst levelling they can be important, learning your job as you level will make the process much easier than rushing to max and trying to learn it all at once. Unfortunately this doesn't seem to be the mindset of some people, which is what leads to the bad players. The game gives you the tools to learn a job's fundamentals, which should be the bare minimum, it is just that people do not want to use the tools to learn.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

If you want to help sprouts that way then you kind of have to accept your rotation syncing down. If you don't want your rotation to sync down, then maybe you just have to accept helping sprouts some other way like in the novice network and leveling some other way like fates, hunt bills, beast tribes or the highest level dungeon available.

There are other ways to get tomestones. Pvp, max level dungeons, expert roulette, first time bonuses for level 90 content, S ranks, hunt trains and maps.

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Y'all can't get the easy part uh..okay let me spell it out for you... Roulette gives those reward in such big quantities so you do them daily cause they are by far the best way to get XP and tomestone in-game, to a point other methods to farm them are slow and inefficient. The reason it is made like that is so level 90 player has a reason to do roulette daily for reward, they don't care about the sprout, they want the reward, but the system also helps sprout so that just happen at the same time. It is like when you work IRL, you don't become an employee at Mcdonald cause you want customers to be served fast food, you go there because you want to get paid. And you're the guy going around saying ''WeLl If YoU dOn'T wAnT tO sErVe CuStOmEr, bEgGiNg fOr MoNeY, iT aLsO gIvE cAsH''

Yea sure I could xp in another way... Or I could save myself a week of farm and take those free 2-4 levels a day that are almost free.

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Originally Posted by Magikazam

Y'all can't get the easy part uh..okay let me spell it out for you... Roulette gives those reward in such big quantities so you do them daily cause they are by far the best way to get XP and tomestone in-game, to a point other methods to farm them are slow and inefficient.

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Not true. If you kill just 10 S ranks, you get 1000 poetics and 300-800 aphorism, which is easy because they spawn all the time with the world visit system and ARR+4 expansions worth of them. An EW hunt train gives you at least 360 poetics, 240 aphorism and 120 astronomy in the time it takes to do 1 roulette. There is a reason they are popular. It's more efficient than doing expert roulette which only gives 90 astronomy.

Although some roulettes give a lot of experience, a lot of them don't, such as level 50/60/70/80, normal raids and guildhest. It's not very desirable to do some of the roulettes either, such as main scenario and alliance, because you can get trapped in something that takes longer than 20 minutes. The bonus only applies once a day as well so after that you only have the highest level dungeon left as a way to level through dungeons.

I've done fate farming in Shadowbringers and EW and made 3 levels very quickly. It must have been less than an hour in a party. But if you enjoy doing it through roulettes that is fine, but syncing is part of those roulettes.

Too much work to code down scaling when there is absolutely no benefit to the time wasted implementing it. Opens the can of worms of having to re-balance old content, and they already give old casual content a slice in the throat when it comes to HP and potencies when the next one comes out. Then you have the newbie unfriendlness when you got some level 90 jockey and everyone is still level 60. Just unnecessary.