Ardbert's Party vs the Scions Analysis

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Originally Posted by Iscah

The sadness of Moenbryda's death was never about how much it affected us personally, but how much it clearly affected the other Scions who knew her well.

Urianger in particular was struck so deeply by it at the time and has never stopped talking about her since – not in every line, of course, but she's clearly never far from his thoughts, and the payoff in Endwalker is entirely about addressing his emotions, not yours.

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Once more, you have to consider the fact that for some of us this event took place over 8 years ago. The player's perception of such things should be considered when dealing with events that took place so far in the past. The fact that such a payoff was locked behind such a lengthy detour in the MSQ is also a contributing factor as to why it was a miss for people.

It was a miss? That's news to me. From what I've seen, most people (even those who were otherwise unimpressed with the Labyrinthos segment or even 6.0 as a whole), thought it was one of the highlights. Eight years is really not that long in terms of fiction, either, as someone who is engaged with a story can remember enough details from decades ago.

I'm sure there's a nebulous group of "some people" who didn't like it or weren't engaged with it, but you can always find "some people" who hold any opinion.

Ardbert's party was really flashy and they could kind of afford to be compared to the Scions.

Look at the root of the Scions as an organization. Of course there's going to be a ton of people with similar backgrounds. In comparison Ardbert's group was a bunch of outcasts that came together under Ardbert. The scions come together for a singular purpose while Ardbert's group has its own side objectives even though they work and travel together.

Even when we've taken the time to explore what might be side interests of the Scions such as for example when Tataru messed around with becoming an Arcanist(poor example I know but empty mind right now), it all circles back to wanting to benefit the organization. Plus some of it's just really, really uncompelling compared to the trials that Ardbert's party members go through.

The Scions can be a tiny bit boring but a lot of it is by story design. You'd have to change really important details of the story to actually make them not be this way.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Once more, you have to consider the fact that for some of us this event took place over 8 years ago. The player's perception of such things should be considered when dealing with events that took place so far in the past. The fact that such a payoff was locked behind such a lengthy detour in the MSQ is also a contributing factor as to why it was a miss for people.

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Yeah, I was always indifferent to Moenbryda. She's one of the characters who was milked far too much for my liking over the years. I thought she had a decent send off back during ARR.

I would have liked to have seen Nabriales re-examined in the context of the party knowing the truth behind the Ascians. In hindsight, he's quite the chad given that he managed to take out a Scion. The only other on screen death of note from an Ascian is at Lahabrea's hands in the reworked ARR finale and even that is swiftly reversed by Hydaelyn.

In terms of parties who are part of or make up an organization of some kind, I cannot help but recall my experience many years ago when I played Kingdom Hearts 358/2 Days. Despite having 13-14 members, Organization XIII at the time was able to provide much in the way of visual variety and distinct personalities. Love or hate those characters, they each brought something unique to the table for their respective fans to enjoy. The same kind of diversity just doesn't exist with the scions.

These were characters with flaws that were often put on display over the course of the Kingdom Hearts games, and although being a game intended for younger audiences the stakes in these games for these characters felt more pronounced than those over the course of FFXIV's season 1. Kingdom Hearts however does have a tendency to let characters off the hook eventually, but the payoff felt a lot more earned than when compared to the numerous times the scions have been saved from the consequences of their own actions.

https://alchetron.com/cdn/organizati...esize-750.jpeg

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

It was a miss? That's news to me. From what I've seen, most people (even those who were otherwise unimpressed with the Labyrinthos segment or even 6.0 as a whole), thought it was one of the highlights. Eight years is really not that long in terms of fiction, either, as someone who is engaged with a story can remember enough details from decades ago.

I'm sure there's a nebulous group of "some people" who didn't like it or weren't engaged with it, but you can always find "some people" who hold any opinion.

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Honestly this is the first time Ive ever heard someone say otherwise to that scene. I mean, I can imagine it since not many people get attached to every single minute detail to the story.

Although I do agree that particular part in Labyrinthos part 2 dragged the pacing a bit too much with its "find these npcs". It's almost as bad as the Shb Kholusia part 2 Talos section which while I loved conceptually, the execution was just ....ugh (funny enough both pace sloggers happen around the same time in their respective acts in the main stories lol)

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

In terms of parties who are part of or make up an organization of some kind, I cannot help but recall my experience many years ago when I played Kingdom Hearts 358/2 Days. Despite having 13-14 members, Organization XIII at the time was able to provide much in the way of visual variety and distinct personalities. Love or hate those characters, they each brought something unique to the table for their respective fans to enjoy. The same kind of diversity just doesn't exist with the scions.

These were characters with flaws that were often put on display over the course of the Kingdom Hearts games, and although being a game intended for younger audiences the stakes in these games for these characters felt more pronounced than those over the course of FFXIV's season 1. Kingdom Hearts however does have a tendency to let characters off the hook eventually, but the payoff felt a lot more earned than when compared to the numerous times the scions have been saved from the consequences of their own actions.

https://alchetron.com/cdn/organizati...esize-750.jpeg

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are we seriously trying to sell KH's rogue's gallery of buffonery that is Organization XIII now?

The only "depth" any of those members (sans Roxas, Saix and Axel I suppose) where how fun and cool their respective boss fights were perfectly showcasing their personalities and quirks in a gameplay aspect and thats it. One of my faves out of this group was Marluxia but let me tell you, its wasnt because he was a compelling or interesting character in the slightest. It was because I like his theme of being a grim reaper represented by japanese cherry blossoms which is extremely cool as a design choice. And this made him memorable due to his fun boss fight in KH2FM. But thats all I cared for that character since his actual role in the plot and personality was just standard stuff.

I've played the KH games and I can still tell you that 80% of Organization XIII are just ....whatever in terms of character development. I think people like them due to their interesting character designs and potential each could've had rather than what was given in the games.

Thank you for affirming that interesting visual designs do much in the way of increasing the palatability of these characters, even if they have limited screentime. However, I do think that these characters had sufficient depth for the story they were trying to tell and as you mention, each had distinct personalities and quirks that helped set them apart from each other. These are some positive design principles which should be considered for the makeup of the Season 2 cast.

I thought they played off of each other rather nicely. I believe they were also given some form of 'happy ending' as well when all was said and done?

Though if they don't count for whatever reason then one needs only look at the way in which the Turks play off of each other and Rufus Shinra throughout Final Fantasy VII and its various spin off titles.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

In terms of parties who are part of or make up an organization of some kind, I cannot help but recall my experience many years ago when I played Kingdom Hearts 358/2 Days. Despite having 13-14 members, Organization XIII at the time was able to provide much in the way of visual variety and distinct personalities. Love or hate those characters, they each brought something unique to the table for their respective fans to enjoy. The same kind of diversity just doesn't exist with the scions.

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Yeah, no thanks to that. I mentioned in the other thread how some games (noteably, FFIX) uses shallowness or one-note jokes/gimmicks to give characters the illusion of "diversity" when they're all just flat characters. Another example of that is Organization XIII from KH, and I can also provide another example with the majority of Chrono Cross's cast. Having a lot of characters doesn't mean a lot when half or more of them are defined by a single character trait or recurring joke. It's another reason why, like I said before, "variety" isn't particularly relevant to how good or bad a group may be.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Thank you for affirming that interesting visual designs do much in the way of increasing the palatability of these characters, even if they have limited screentime. However, I do think that these characters had sufficient depth for the story they were trying to tell and as you mention, each had distinct personalities and quirks that helped set them apart from each other. These are some positive design principles which should be considered for the makeup of the Season 2 cast.

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I strongly disagree that Organization XIII had "sufficient depth" in their stories. Like I said, they're almost all just one-note characters with nothing else going for them. They lack any substantial arcs, they lack solid prevalence in the series (besides Roxas, Axel and now apparently Xigbar...), theyre all just basically glorified jobbers.

But you're right that I would love to see fresh new faces that'll tag along with the main FFXIV group (give me another hearty roegadyn, I miss Gosetsu so badly in this story) however I dont think I would want for the Scions to just end right here with Endwalker either since they've done some setup for interesting future arcs (we're currently experiencing one with Y'shtola atm if you havent noticed)

Admittedly my tolerance for any future storytelling surrounding Y'shtola was greatly diminished after the spectacle she made of herself in 6.1, which did not serve her character in a meaningful way. As I mentioned in my earlier post, the way in which Organization XIII was handled worked for the story they were trying to tell - as in a story intended for consumption by an audience far younger than the one FFXIV aims for. Even so, they were able to express more creativity in terms of their designs and personalities than the current scions. They had stakes and more consequences for their actions than in FFXIV's Season 1, which is why it is important to reflect back on why this piece of media was able to accomplish what FFXIV didn't.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Admittedly my tolerance for any future storytelling surrounding Y'shtola was greatly diminished after the spectacle she made of herself in 6.1, which did not serve her character in a meaningful way. As I mentioned in my earlier post, the way in which Organization XIII worked for the story they were trying to tell - as in a story intended for consumption by an audience far younger than the one FFXIV aims for. Even so, they were able to express more creativity in terms of their designs and personalities than the current scions.

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A lot of KH fans (including myself) would still disagree with this statement. The individual members of Organization XIII were underplayed very heavily in the games to be taken as a better example to your argument over the Scions in terms of personality and depth.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Admittedly my tolerance for any future storytelling surrounding Y'shtola was greatly diminished after the spectacle she made of herself in 6.1, which did not serve her character in a meaningful way.

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The... spectacle? Casting the nixie spell, you mean?

That's actually probably the most character-ish thing she's done in a while. I can totally relate to the embarrassment I would feel if I had to recite something I'd made up as a seven-year-old but as an adult in front of other adults. The key thing isn't the spell itself but the discomfort she has before reciting it.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

The... spectacle? Casting the nixie spell, you mean?

That's actually probably the most character-ish thing she's done in a while. I can totally relate to the embarrassment I would feel if I had to recite something I'd made up as a seven-year-old but as an adult in front of other adults. The key thing isn't the spell itself but the discomfort she has before reciting it.

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I think the key question to ask is why such an event is even taking place in the main story at all. How was this event supposed to grow her character? It would have been a better use of screen time to see her display something in the way of emotional vulnerability or opening up about her feelings on Runar, even if no other characters are there to witness it. A monologue to herself away from prying eyes where she could express the things she's buried deep inside herself. Possibly even cry, or reflect on the cost that her journey has truly taken on her so far.

Not the Nixie spell.

Simple enough, not every moment has to be a deep examination of character. The lighthearted details are as much a part of them as the serious ones.

A sad soliloquy about her deep feelings doesn't belong in the part of the story they were telling there. Maybe some other time, but not then.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Admittedly my tolerance for any future storytelling surrounding Y'shtola was greatly diminished after the spectacle she made of herself in 6.1, which did not serve her character in a meaningful way. As I mentioned in my earlier post, the way in which Organization XIII was handled worked for the story they were trying to tell - as in a story intended for consumption by an audience far younger than the one FFXIV aims for. Even so, they were able to express more creativity in terms of their designs and personalities than the current scions. They had stakes and more consequences for their actions than in FFXIV's Season 1, which is why it is important to reflect back on why this piece of media was able to accomplish what FFXIV didn't.

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Actually as cringe inducing as that scene was, it did establish that she wasn't the snarky hard mage character her whole life. That somewhere down the line before life got to her she was your usual little girl. A short window into her life before the circle of knowing. It was ham-fisted but effective.

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Originally Posted by Thaciscokidd

Actually as cringe inducing as that scene was, it did establish that she wasn't the snarky hard mage character her whole life. That somewhere down the line before life got to her she was your usual little girl. A short window into her life before the circle of knowing. It was ham-fisted but effective.

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the scene is so much better with her French VA lol

Tbh that little scene told me a ton about her. To make such things hints she was a lonely child. She also wasn’t bitter as the whole incantation seems happy in nature. The care she shows the two constructs after, even though there are just constructs shows a tiny bit of how much they once meant though granted… she had them go into the void but they were constructs XD. I learnt more from that scene about her then I did in storm blood. That is the crime if you ask me.

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Originally Posted by Comrade_uri

Tbh that little scene told me a ton about her. To make such things hints she was a lonely child. She also wasn’t bitter as the whole incantation seems happy in nature. The care she shows the two constructs after, even though there are just constructs shows a tiny bit of how much they once meant though granted… she had them go into the void but they were constructs XD. I learnt more from that scene about her then I did in storm blood. That is the crime if you ask me.

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Honestly this.

That scene showed a lot about her. You may still not like her and that's fine, but I found the whole thing to be a good character moment.

No it is bad scene. Because the Yshlotta sacrifice the bubbleman to the Void to look just because is curious lol. And then player are upset when the Ascian want to sacrifice all the humans in all the worlds to bring back dead friends. Is the double standard writing.

It also is bad writing. Funny scene has no place in drama story like the game of the thrones. It make them look like the silly student rather than the warrior. Next they will dress the Gaius as the chicken and Ayayameric as the elephant for the silly joke it will not stop. Is embarrassing. It take away from rugged traditional masculine portrail of cast in the western games. Writer should replace her with the Garlemald girl in the green dress for diversity in cast.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

You really, really don't seem to get that covid isn't the worst thing that's ever happened to some people. I'm reminded of a quote, "Some of you aren't used to every year being the worst year of your life and it shows."

"Forge ahead" is absolutely a platitude as well as a lame motto.

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I think you’re mistaking opinion for fact.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

What a pity that unlike Estinien’s traumatic backstory, hers was never even hinted at in-game aside from the business with her grandfather. This however does not excuse her recent pivot in Endwalker that now has her constantly telling the WoL to take care of themselves. It is not an effective use for a character that isn’t really built up for that sort of thing.

This does nothing to address the fact that for a lot of us vets it did in fact happen 8 years ago and given how little time we spent with her, forgive us if we aren’t exactly all that attached to her or her relationship with Urianger. The time bubble happening in this game is a whole issue itself but I’d rather not go into it at length here.

Thancred’s negative characteristics made him feel like a real and fleshed out character as opposed to one that no longer has much of a reason to be around anymore, as echoed by a significant sector of the playerbase. Reread my original post to see my explanation as to why his behaviour was inappropriate for a supposed father figure in Endwalker’s MSQ. As it stands now he is the top pick for many when it comes to what character should be retired first.

This is one of many examples throughout Season 1’s storyline of her sacrifices being annulled. Please re-read the OP to see why this isn’t an effective way of storytelling.

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You mean just like how everyone is to take into account the side story about Zenos that's in a separate book that's not yet been published in other languages in order to fully understand him? As Iscah and myself have said its not about how her death affected you as a player but those within the story. You and others might not have grown attached to her for the short time we knew her. But others like myself did and it didn't even take that scene in Labyrinthos to be reminded of how much she meant to others. Just doing a few side quests that hint at her as that nice Roegaden lady who used to play with the children.

You can be angry about something and not explode into a rage at some cute little bunnies that don't deserve it. Let alone wouldn't and couldn't understand as to why he or anyone would care about the shards. It would be like getting mad at the fact Gully Dwarves are unable to count higher then like five and thus don't get how there's a difference between five and fifty. I did read your Op I just don't agree with it. How does her injury annul a sacrifice? We knew soon after her injury that she wasn't dead. It wasn't like the deal with Nanamo at the end of ARR. That if you were playing the game when that part first came out us the players had months between the bloody banquet and how things unfolded after that once the story picked that storyline back up to not know that she didn't really die.

Even her quick save from the 2nd use of Flow isn't as cheapened as some of you feel that it is. Did you know that when she used it that Emet was capable of pulling souls out of the life stream? Or that he only did it to really solidify that he'd actually help you and not stop you from defeating the Lightwardends? Instead of being a heartless and cruel jerk and going "I could save her, but why would I?" or having it come at some kind of price. If anything Y'shtola getting sidelined twice is more of the writers not knowing what to do with her while also not knowing how to be able to have others at the time more in the spotlight. Either to show some character growth or that the group can figure things out without having one of the two academic powerhouses in play.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

The... spectacle? Casting the nixie spell, you mean?

That's actually probably the most character-ish thing she's done in a while. I can totally relate to the embarrassment I would feel if I had to recite something I'd made up as a seven-year-old but as an adult in front of other adults. The key thing isn't the spell itself but the discomfort she has before reciting it.

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I agree. The summoning and the scene where a lot of books fell on her made her way more relatable as a character because she showed some other emotions than stoicism and snark.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

You really, really don't seem to get that covid isn't the worst thing that's ever happened to some people. I'm reminded of a quote, "Some of you aren't used to every year being the worst year of your life and it shows."

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You seem a bit lost trying to relate to an anecdote about the similarities in Endwalker as discussed among a set of players who also happen to have some experience in an ICU where people are dying.

The effect of Covid19 on health workers has been ignored time and time again. It is being ignored here as well.

Hint: Don't use quotes spoken by a television character in "Supernatural" (or Fairly OddParents, depending on who is doing the attribution) as if it was God's Wisdom. I am reminded of that famous quote "Do you know what lies on the other side of this fog? ...... More fog"

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

I think the key question to ask is why such an event is even taking place in the main story at all. How was this event supposed to grow her character? It would have been a better use of screen time to see her display something in the way of emotional vulnerability or opening up about her feelings on Runar, even if no other characters are there to witness it. A monologue to herself away from prying eyes where she could express the things she's buried deep inside herself. Possibly even cry, or reflect on the cost that her journey has truly taken on her so far.

Not the Nixie spell.

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It wasn't mean to grow her character now, it was meant to be a glimpse into her past.

Also, Y'Shtola doesn't show emotions, that is one of her traits. She is all about learning everything, the exception being with Runar, where it is shown she does let her guard down. However, this is then going to be used as a driving force for her to find a way back to the First and you can guarantee the portal they find in 6.1 is going to be of particular interest to her. She wants to know how the portal was formed and how it works so that she could potentially replicate it herself, not only for the expanded knowledge, but it is also a chance for her to reunite with Runar. Her determination to know more even overpowers her embarrassment which goes to show just how much she wants to learn more about this portal.

Her emotions are not on full display at all times, however, her actions certainly show what emotions she is feeling behind her stern nature.

I do not believe that trying to compete in this thread regarding who had the worse time during Covid or other similarly harrowing situations is a productive direction for this discussion. The simple fact of the matter is that in this story that spoke at length about the ordeals one needs to pass to grow resilient enough to overcome despair, the Scions are quite privileged and suffered little to no losses when compared to Ardbert's group and many of the game's side characters.

In the context of the story and setting real life aside, the message falls flat in the way that it is delivered. Again, look back to Lamitt. She sacrificed everything for the greater good and was still shunned by her own people for it. Alphinaud in comparison had no such consequences for his "rebellion" of sorts because his mother was there every step of the way supporting him and his father eventually relented as well. This may be good for "feels" but it really isn't the kind of resolution I was expecting, as his father had the capacity to be a far more compelling antagonistic figure.

If I have to ask myself whose story I am more interested in following, hers or his, I'm choosing Lamitt's. Another Final Fantasy character who was quite the mama's boy was Hope from FFXIII - and the loss of his mother coupled with his estranged relationship with his father at the very least gave him a more thrilling character arc that incorporated revenge and the need to grow stronger in a more effective manner than Alphinaud's writing. I will never understand the aversion some players seem to have for higher tension and stakes in the main story.

If you want a game where nothing bad happens, there are plenty of other options to choose from outside the Final Fantasy series. Final Fantasy games should provide some level of emotional ups and downs that are grounded by permanent consequences instead of handwaving away problems for the main party like we saw happen in Endwalker. Up until recently, I would have gladly recommended FFXIV to adults my age but after Endwalker I struggle to find a good reason to do so, because the game increasingly appears to disregard the age of its playerbase from both a gameplay and story perspective by continually wearing down both aspects.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

It wasn't mean to grow her character now, it was meant to be a glimpse into her past.

Also, Y'Shtola doesn't show emotions, that is one of her traits. She is all about learning everything, the exception being with Runar, where it is shown she does let her guard down. However, this is then going to be used as a driving force for her to find a way back to the First and you can guarantee the portal they find in 6.1 is going to be of particular interest to her. She wants to know how the portal was formed and how it works so that she could potentially replicate it herself, not only for the expanded knowledge, but it is also a chance for her to reunite with Runar. Her determination to know more even overpowers her embarrassment which goes to show just how much she wants to learn more about this portal.

Her emotions are not on full display at all times, however, her actions certainly show what emotions she is feeling behind her stern nature.

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She may let her guard down with Runar, but it really isn't clear whether her motivation to return to the First is to see Runar or to prove that she can complete what some think is impossible.

Would be nice if we could replace some/most of the Scions with some new different characters.

I would also echo the desire to have Gaius along the journey, would not only make for more interesting dialogue between characters but would also have a once complete opposite of worldviews to our own along the way.
Or to see something akin to HW, with Ysayle and Estinien again, their interactions between differing lived worlds or perspectives. We did have some of that as well in Shb as well, with Emet voicing his side, so would be interesting to explore such a field again. Especially if new characters would be of opposing views yet be part of said new team, even if most unlikely of allies too.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

Also, Y'Shtola doesn't show emotions, that is one of her traits. She is all about learning everything, the exception being with Runar, where it is shown she does let her guard down.

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Frankly, all i saw from her when Runar showed something more than respect was a woman who is dazed and confused at receiving honest affection. Then she "retreats to her shell" to avoid dealing with it, instead of giving the usual mocking retort. I'm sure some armchair psychologist could write a few paragraphs about that.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

I do not believe that trying to compete in this thread regarding who had the worse time during Covid or other similarly harrowing situations is a productive direction for this discussion. The simple fact of the matter is that in this story that spoke at length about the ordeals one needs to pass to grow resilient enough to overcome despair, the Scions are quite privileged and suffered little to no losses when compared to Ardbert's group and many of the game's side characters.

In the context of the story and setting real life aside, the message falls flat in the way that it is delivered. Again, look back to Lamitt. She sacrificed everything for the greater good and was still shunned by her own people for it. Alphinaud in comparison had no such consequences for his "rebellion" of sorts because his mother was there every step of the way supporting him and his father eventually relented as well. This may be good for "feels" but it really isn't the kind of resolution I was expecting, as his father had the capacity to be a far more compelling antagonistic figure.

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You can't make the argument "competing over who has it worse isn't productive" and then write an entire essay about how the Scions haven't suffered enough. If suffering isn't a competition, then that goes all around. In this context, I can feel the same sympathy for the Scions, who try to help people in need, as a social or medical worker. People IRL can and do develop PTSD and other psychological traumas from being exposed to suffering, underprivileged and dying people. Even if those people themselves come from wealthy or privileged lifestyles and get to go home to warm meals, a loving family, and a comfortable bed, I would find it disrespectful and diminishing to say that the pain they feel from that secondhand exposure means nothing. A nurse that watches her patient slowly die in front of her with no way to stop it, in my opinion, doesn't get to be talked-down-to about suffering, no matter how big her bank account is. That's to say nothing of the fact that the Scions do put their lives at risk on an almost constant basis -- it's easy to forget because this is fiction and all, but near-death experiences aren't exactly something a human being can experience even once in a lifetime and just walk away from unaffected.

In terms of storytelling, do I think Endwalker could have handled its subject matter of suffering and resilience with more tact and nuance? Absolutely. But do I think "the Scions don't suffer enough" is one of the problems? Not really....buuuuut, I don't really fault that criticism either when "You don't suffer enough" was literally the criticism being levied at the game's "fallen precursor" civilization.

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Up until recently, I would have gladly recommended FFXIV to adults my age but after Endwalker I struggle to find a good reason to do so, because the game increasingly appears to disregard the age of its playerbase from both a gameplay and story perspective by continually wearing down both aspects.

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Aside from the obvious risks of trying to generalize to an entire imagined "age" based on one's own personal thoughts, I would say the complete opposite. There are plenty of media available to adults where a lot of "bad" things happen which aren't appropriate for younger audiences (the entire Game of Thrones saga comes right to mind). There's also plenty of "bad" stuff that happens in FFXIV, just not final death to main Scion characters recently. I feel the current approach for FFXIV is fine for the "age" you're describing, and I find EW honestly a fantastic expansion that it makes me encourage others to try it out even more.

Same with gameplay. If your "target" audience is established adults and maybe middle-age adults, you're talking either mainly people with full-time careers and families, or those whose dexterity and reaction times may be starting to slow. The gameplay design where classes keep many general things the same while including smaller differences to separate them meshes perfectly with this. I would see a design approach with each class being completely unique and as complex as possible most appropriate for younger audiences than come anywhere close to what forms FFXIV's main population.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

The simple fact of the matter is that in this story that spoke at length about the ordeals one needs to pass to grow resilient enough to overcome despair, the Scions are quite privileged and suffered little to no losses when compared to Ardbert's group and many of the game's side characters.

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I just want to point out that describing the Scions as “privileged” is nothing but hyperbole . By deliberately ignoring the Scions struggles, you skew the overall narrative and just about anyone who likes the Scions will immediately reject your point as a result. You aren’t convincing anyone with this argument.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

In the context of the story and setting real life aside, the message falls flat in the way that it is delivered. Again, look back to Lamitt. She sacrificed everything for the greater good and was still shunned by her own people for it. Alphinaud in comparison had no such consequences for his "rebellion" of sorts because his mother was there every step of the way supporting him and his father eventually relented as well.

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Only after being publicly disowned. And his mother support was their, yes, but that certainly didn’t help him in Ishgard, as he grappled with the guilt of creating the Crystal Braves and being blamed for murdering the Sultana.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

This may be good for "feels" but it really isn't the kind of resolution I was expecting, as his father had the capacity to be a far more compelling antagonistic figure. If I have to ask myself whose story I am more interested in following, hers or his, I'm choosing Lamitt's. Another Final Fantasy character who was quite the mama's boy was Hope from FFXIII - and the loss of his mother coupled with his estranged relationship with his father at the very least gave him a more thrilling character arc that incorporated revenge and the need to grow stronger in a more effective manner than Alphinaud's writing.

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This is subjective through and through.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

I will never understand the aversion some players seem to have for higher tension and stakes in the main story.

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I don’t think people are averse to changes, just not the ones you’re advocating for.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

If you want a game where nothing bad happens, there are plenty of other options to choose from outside the Final Fantasy series. Final Fantasy games should provide some level of emotional ups and downs that are grounded by permanent consequences instead of handwaving away problems for the main party like we saw happen in Endwalker.

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FF games handwave consequences all the time though! It’s practically a series staple. Looks at FFIV.

It's worth noting that FFIV was released before some of us were even born. Personally I'm inclined to look to the more 'recent' entries in the franchise. Besides, I'm not sure how the existence of FFIV negates the many other Final Fantasy titles with dire consequences for the world as a whole and the members of the main cast.

Though I imagine, as always, those who consider the Scions to be their comfort characters will insist on shielding them from any and all meaningful stakes whilst being perfectly fine with everything else in the setting being tormented and eliminated in their stead.

FFIV is the game where a father sacrificed his life in the name of revenge in casting Meteor. FFIV is where the main character was directly responsible for the death of another main character's parent. FFIV also did not annul the sacrifices made by the main cast members in as little time as this game did, with some only being able to be brought back into action in the penultimate moments of the game. It did not demand nearly as much in the way of suspension of disbelief as Endwalker did, with some characters like Rydia only making an appearance in a shocking manner aged up to adulthood in the middle of a battle that was practically lost after her fate was left unknown. Unless one has prior knowledge of the game, it is much harder to predict the fates of these characters or if/when they will return.

This doesn't hold for FFXIV however, and especially not for Ultima Thule.

Many could see that the sacrifices made in Ultima Thule would be annulled over the span of less than 30 minutes, and many could also see ahead with the 5 minute delay between Y'shtola's Shadowbringers forbidden magic moment and her immediate revival by Emet-Selch. The lack of commitment to these consequences for even an hour is a concerning trend that must be re-assessed. Given the age of this playerbase it is important to factor in their perception of these events, especially when games intended for younger audiences like the Mana series are more consistent in sticking to the consequences of the choices characters make in the story. The emotional impact of these moments has been compromised and greater care should be taken moving forward when writing sequences where characters must make sacrifices.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Given the age of this playerbase it is important to factor in their perception of these events, especially when games intended for younger audiences like the Mana series are more consistent in sticking to the consequences of the choices characters make in the story

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How did you determine the 'age' of the player base for this game? Its ESRB rating is "Teen", yes. That's the lowest common denominator for this game ... a parent might allow a 13 year old to purchase and play the game.

But.

The game has an ongoing subscription fee. Parents are supposed to decide whether the game is appropriate for their children. An ESRB rating of "Teen", along with the caveat "Language, Mild Blood, Sexual Themes, Use of Alcohol, Violence" indicates that maybe, just maybe, they have oriented the game to those who are slightly older than 15 or 16. I personally knew plenty of parents who don't even allow T rated games to be played at home because of the wide variance in themes.

In reality, I know of no specific teenagers on YouTube or Twitch who play the game. (Point them out to me and I'll give them a look-see). Even a reasoned argument in these forums requires a player of a certain age and education. If I were to guess, the 'age' of the player base is closer to 35 than to 13. A smaller group of teenagers, a larger group of 20-40 year olds, a smaller group of 40-70 year olds. What do I base my speculations on? Money. The game is not free [technically, it's free-with-restrictions-through-level-60, but...]. It has a subscription cost, a cost to purchase the game itself post-Heavensward, a cost to purchase additional items for the Mog Store, etc.

The player of the video game is only the people of the young age. So is important to make the story they can like so it can be recommended to they friends at the school. This is why the story about the Ascian is better writing because they want to make the world without the consequence and only the bliss. To live in the world with the grown person consequence is bad. Scion should be the one to face the consequence not the Ascian.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

FFIV is the game where a father sacrificed his life in the name of revenge in casting Meteor. FFIV is where the main character was directly responsible for the death of another main character's parent. FFIV also did not annul the sacrifices made by the main cast members in as little time as this game did, with some only being able to be brought back into action in the penultimate moments of the game. It did not demand nearly as much in the way of suspension of disbelief as Endwalker did, with some characters like Rydia only making an appearance in a shocking manner aged up to adulthood in the middle of a battle that was practically lost after her fate was left unknown. Unless one has prior knowledge of the game, it is much harder to predict the fates of these characters or if/when they will return.

This doesn't hold for FFXIV however, and especially not for Ultima Thule.

Many could see that the sacrifices made in Ultima Thule would be annulled over the span of less than 30 minutes, and many could also see ahead with the 5 minute delay between Y'shtola's Shadowbringers forbidden magic moment and her immediate revival by Emet-Selch. The lack of commitment to these consequences for even an hour is a concerning trend that must be re-assessed. Given the age of this playerbase it is important to factor in their perception of these events, especially when games intended for younger audiences like the Mana series are more consistent in sticking to the consequences of the choices characters make in the story. The emotional impact of these moments has been compromised and greater care should be taken moving forward when writing sequences where characters must make sacrifices.

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Another good thing about FFIV is that the main character was forced to atone for supporting a misguided cause. I think it would be pretty interesting to see the protagonists in this game go through such an ordeal - though the most obvious route to having that play out was, unfortunately, deliberately 'subverted' during Endwalker.

Self proclaimed heroes who somehow always end up on the winning side don't really resonate much with me. Real heroes are imperfect - they might mean well but they're only human and make mistakes or back the wrong horse in a race. Anything remotely similar to the idea of things blowing up in the faces of the Scions doesn't even affect them so much as third party characters - as we saw with Alphinaud's 'plight' in Garlemald.

Ilberd was probably the closest this game will ever get to it, I suppose. He was a great antagonist. Though as of the end of Heavensward the game's narrative seemed to move away from intrigue in favour of 'feels' instead.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Self proclaimed heroes who somehow always end up on the winning side don't really resonate much with me. Real heroes are imperfect

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I don't particularly mind imperfect heroes, since they're the most relatable. But on the other side of the coin, I also dislike when an imperfect hero stays imperfect...especially if it's imperfect in the same way. That, in particular, is why I couldn't get behind the earlier argument of Thancred continuing to have his womanizing vices; if a character trait is deemed an impediment, then it easily becomes aggravating when said impediment remains throughout the narrative.

For instance, this is one of the reasons it rings hollow on the 50th occasion that Batman decides he needs to start trusting his adopted family and, in turn stop abusing their own trust. Because later on, some new story starts and he does the same thing again, learns the exact same lesson again, and makes the same promise again. Ad infinitum.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

FFIV is the game where a father sacrificed his life in the name of revenge in casting Meteor. FFIV is where the main character was directly responsible for the death of another main character's parent. FFIV also did not annul the sacrifices made by the main cast members in as little time as this game did, with some only being able to be brought back into action in the penultimate moments of the game. It did not demand nearly as much in the way of suspension of disbelief as Endwalker did, with some characters like Rydia only making an appearance in a shocking manner aged up to adulthood in the middle of a battle that was practically lost after her fate was left unknown. Unless one has prior knowledge of the game, it is much harder to predict the fates of these characters or if/when they will return.

This doesn't hold for FFXIV however, and especially not for Ultima Thule.

Many could see that the sacrifices made in Ultima Thule would be annulled over the span of less than 30 minutes, and many could also see ahead with the 5 minute delay between Y'shtola's Shadowbringers forbidden magic moment and her immediate revival by Emet-Selch. The lack of commitment to these consequences for even an hour is a concerning trend that must be re-assessed. Given the age of this playerbase it is important to factor in their perception of these events, especially when games intended for younger audiences like the Mana series are more consistent in sticking to the consequences of the choices characters make in the story. The emotional impact of these moments has been compromised and greater care should be taken moving forward when writing sequences where characters must make sacrifices.

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So Cid jumping off an airship hovering above a mountain top that grew a hole to technically the middle of the planet. Blowing himself up and somehow surviving the rest of the falls and explosion. Or Yang who not only survived a ship wreck but also an explosion at the top of a giant tower. Later getting whacked with a frying pan while already unconscious don't demand more of a suspension of disbelief than things that have happened in XIV? Or that Palom and Parom's Elder somehow found something to cure them of having petrified themselves? Or that in order to actually do damage to the final boss one has to throw a spoon at them?

Ultama Thule we knew even before going there that we were carrying a maguffin. Even told to use it if we needed to. Only to later get told to not use it because it wasn't safe yet to do so.