Disappointed Dragoon.

I pray it doesnt get the SMN treatment. I knew it was coming though. DRG is the only melee to not get some type of rework. Really wish they at least adjust right eye.

No one is getting SMN treatment because there are no malfunctioning pet classes! :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Zsolen

Please don't respond again. I don't care for what you have to say, because it obvious you are looking to give a lecture to someone, and the lecture does not even apply.

I pointed out a trend. There is a history of SE making jobs watered down. If that hurts your feelings, that is your problem.

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Yet their point is still sound. Folks need to WAIT. Folks here jump the gun way to much. And yes using teems like "entire playerbase" is kind of off. Folks pointing that out aren't always trying to lecture tbf

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

Yet their point is still sound. Folks need to WAIT. Folks here jump the gun way to much. And yes using teems like "entire playerbase" is kind of off. Folks pointing that out aren't always trying to lecture tbf

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People are going to wait regardless, what people are worried about is the fact that they can spot an easily noticeable pattern and are lamenting. Not exactly 4D thinking here, lol.

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

Yet their point is still sound. Folks need to WAIT. Folks here jump the gun way to much. And yes using teems like "entire playerbase" is kind of off. Folks pointing that out aren't always trying to lecture tbf

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We've been hearing that for years and the goalpost is constantly changing.
It's like waiting for a Dr. Appointment date only for it to be cancelled and rescheduled 6 more months away only for it to then be pushed back again another 3 months.
At some point, people are just going to give up and see a new Dr instead of waiting around forever.

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

People are going to wait regardless, what people are worried about is the fact that they can spot an easily noticeable pattern and are lamenting. Not exactly 4D thinking here, lol.

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Again, judge it when we have the info. Worrying does nothing good for anyone. Once we know what's going on then we address it accordingly. Not exactly 4D thinking here, lol

Seems a lil early to be so worried about it. We have no clue what they intend to do with DRG yet. Although i will say i hope they won't do with it what theyve done with other jobs, aka makin em all the same.

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

Again, judge it when we have the info. Worrying does nothing good for anyone. Once we know what's going on then we address it accordingly. Not exactly 4D thinking here, lol

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You are right, basic patterns are rng if you think about it. :^)

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

You are right, basic patterns are rng if you think about it. :^)

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Don't recall saying that, but ofc you'd rather joke and try to provoke people. Pretty sad tbh

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

Don't recall saying that, but ofc you'd rather joke and try to provoke people. Pretty sad tbh

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If the analogy went over your head then that's on you m8.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

Yet their point is still sound. Folks need to WAIT. Folks here jump the gun way to much. And yes using teems like "entire playerbase" is kind of off. Folks pointing that out aren't always trying to lecture tbf

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It's natural to be wary when basically every other time they have "reworked" a job it's ended up a lobotomized mess of it's former self.

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Originally Posted by nezumiku

I feel as if I was conditioned to believe that the developers of this game listen to their community, so I wasn't really worried about the future of this game. But despite all of the new amazing content I am looking forward to from the Live Letter, I am now at a loss for if I will even be able to enjoy it as I would like to.

They have decided to move forward with a dragoon rework and I was personally really caught off guard. Previously they stated they were considering major changes to DRG but when the entire DRG playerbase said that the job was in a perfect or near-perfect spot, I assumed DRG would be left alone or only given some small tweaks centered around DH/Crit and Battle Litany/Life Surge. But they recently announced a full rework IS coming in 6.2

As a DRG main, I also personally felt that dragoon is perfect to play and the only things that have ever annoyed or bothered me was things that were at the end of the day, me as a player failing in that moment, and not actual problems with the job (like jumps locking you in place and perhaps because of this you eat a p4s sword).

So what is the deal here? Are the developers really just ignoring the entire playerbase of this job and changing it despite protestations? :confused:

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They're following in Blizzard's footsteps of "No fun is allowed".

I am not really a fan of current dragoon so I am curious how they will change it. But since I was an ast main for all SB and ShB. I feel for you dragoons. Wonder how my beloved healer will change this time..

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Originally Posted by Kranel_San

They're following in Blizzard's footsteps of "No fun is allowed".

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Then why Hildibrand for the Relic weapon storyline?
Seems like some people in the playerbase who are mad about it are the ones who don't like fun lel.

Look lets at least give it a chance...
It's happening, just wait.
If it ends up being really good it's going to be kinda embarrassing to look around the forum and see all of the hysteria surrounding it.
Lets maybe save our energy for if it actually ends up being bad.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

Then why Hildibrand for the Relic weapon storyline?
Seems like some people in the playerbase who are mad about it are the ones who don't like fun lel.

Look lets at least give it a chance...
It's happening, just wait.
If it ends up being really good it's going to be kinda embarrassing to look around the forum and see all of the hysteria surrounding it.
Lets maybe save our energy for if it actually ends up being bad.

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You can't really do anything once it's reworked though can you? Once it's done, it's done.

Besides that, there's a saying for this. "If it's not broken, don't fix it." You have more to lose than lose from trying to fix something that isn't broken.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Seeing as its been postponed, ad we have zero idea of what..if anything,..is being proposed, again I counsel patience.

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Kind reminder that this is the same argument people said during Shadowbringers regarding Hrothgar, and we're still waiting patiently after 3 years. People are just voicing their concerns, and I don't think that warrants suppressing and silencing their opinions.

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Originally Posted by NekoMataMata

You can't really do anything once it's reworked though can you? Once it's done, it's done.

Besides that, there's a saying for this. "If it's not broken, don't fix it." You have more to lose than lose from trying to fix something that isn't broken.

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That saying is why I feel a bit iffy about DRG being reworked.

I am not saying that you shouldn't be concerned and talk about it, what I am saying is just that we shouldn't talk about it as if we know that it's going to be bad.
The devs have put out many awesome reworks in the past.
I also think that DRG does have a bit of a lack of identity and maybe that's why they want to rework it too, to make the Jumps more of the main event.
Jumps feeling week have been a fairly common complaint for a long time.

I think it's probably more constructive to talk about what we want to see and what we don't want to see and what we want to keep from what we have.
Rather than to just indulge in hysteria about how horrible it's going to be ( not saying everyone does this, but a lot of people are to various degrees ).
Lets just not talk about the rework as if we know it's going to be bad.
If we want to keep DRG as it is then that's another matter and I think that's perfectly valid, but just talk about things we do know rather than things we don't.

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Originally Posted by Izar_Chillen

Seeing how good Dragoon is currently the only "rework" that would seem useful , would be to "rework" Doom Spike to be a Lancer skill earned at lvl 15 so that you can contribute to better dungeon damage in the first few dungeons and then grant Sonic Thrust at lvl 30-35 once you become a Dragoon and can contribute even better dungeon aoe dps than you can currently before 62 when you get the 2nd of the combo


As Doom spike isnt earned until lvl 40 which is ridiculous , other than changing the first 2 of your aoe combo to be accessible much earlier what rework is necessary?


Are jumps going to be altered into standard attacks ?

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The low level AoE is for sure a big issue with DRG.
I don't expect Jumps to become standard attacks ( I am assuming you mean the combo weaponskills? ).
But I am expecting and hope for Jumps to become more powerful.
I do think that some skills may change to Jump attacks in the burst window too.

They made Jumps feel way more responsive in a patch not long ago, so I think that may have been setup for the rework.
They do feel way better now than they used to before, before they felt very clunky to use imo.

Why not? They've changed every other class. I really doubt they'll mess up Dragoons, since they're a developers pet class, like Black Mages are.

Sorry drg mains, they will dumb down your playstyle. However I hope they make it somewhat fun for you guys. I'll join the pray team they won't butcher the job too much.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

We are all doooomed....

Seriously. Get a grip will you?

How about you WAIT , then see what is going to be done, THEN you may grab sackcloth and ashes. Or not.

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Ahh, yes, so that the blame for bad changes can be shifted to the playerbase for not having told the devs not to do X, Y, or Z.

Oh, wait, we've done that, too, and it was merely ignored.

Well, damned in all cases, I guess.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

It's natural to be wary when basically every other time they have "reworked" a job it's ended up a lobotomized mess of it's former self.

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That so? I much prefer Drk post rework, McH post rework and Monk post rework. So thats less fact and mostly opinion

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

That so? I much prefer Drk post rework, McH post rework and Monk post rework. So thats less fact and mostly opinion

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DRK became knock-off warrior and it took them years to make Living Dead not garbage.

MCH used to be the simplest DPS in the game until Summoner came along. My favorite part was in Shadowbringers when people were saying MCH was just a base and they'd add more, then they get one singular button in EW that doesn't even work with the rest of their kit.

MNK I don't have enough information on to say.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

DRK became knock-off warrior and it took them years to make Living Dead not garbage.

MCH used to be the simplest DPS in the game until Summoner came along. My favorite part was in Shadowbringers when people were saying MCH was just a base and they'd add more, then they get one singular button in EW that doesn't even work with the rest of their kit.

MNK I don't have enough information on to say.

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MCH used to not be the simplest job also. This dumbing down began with MCH.

The vast majority of reworks have been overall enjoyed. For how much people will complain, the overall number of people playing MCH and SMN after their respective reworks raised drastically. Very few changes have been seen by the overall playerbase as "bad" outside of the SAM changes in 6.1. While I fully understand that you PERSONALLY may not enjoy the changes, the blunt end of the stick is that these changes arent made for you. They are made to entice new people to play the job because (to my knowledge) its sitting a little low on the list of what jobs are played the most. Also, I dont really get freaking out about changes before youve even SEEN the changes. Sure, they may simplify the job a bit, but assuming that will automatically make the job unfun just seems...over reactive. And for how much people complain about simplification, id argue that summoner got more complicated with its rework vrs the "throw dots on and wait" that was pre endwalker summoner. TLDR, chill. Rage when you see the changes.

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

That so? I much prefer Drk post rework, McH post rework and Monk post rework. So thats less fact and mostly opinion.

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And in what cases was that due to the actual change in mechanics rather than just finally providing long-asked for wholly separable fixes to clunky skills (see: Living Dead) or bloat not being left as is (regardless of whether that be by trimming or reinvigorating it)?


One can dislike that the reward of perfect Overheat fell under a standard deviation of direct hits alone without wanting MCH to be stripped of all mechanics outside of "3 after 2 after 1; hit things on CD."

One can care enough about, say, the improvements to TCJ and Meisui that 5.1 NIN seems better than 5.0 NIN on the whole, but that still wouldn't make turning one of its combos into a one-off 60s CD a good change in itself.

Living Dead finally being decent and Blood Weapon finally having stacks will likely feel huge to most players. That those wholly separable changes were good, in themselves, doesn't mean that edgyWarrior will feel like a fulfilling job on the whole, let alone better than, say, HW or StB DRK.

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Originally Posted by Treesus

id argue that summoner got more complicated with its rework vrs the "throw dots on and wait" that was pre endwalker summoner.

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Lmao you have to be kidding me

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

Lmao you have to be kidding me

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https://i.gyazo.com/500545b54f2f7af6...832589c73a.png

Seems pretty complex to me

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

Lmao you have to be kidding me

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Never said either version was actually difficult, but at least within the rework I feel like im...actually doing stuff. Old summoner was boring in a solid 80 percent of content and felt more braindead then even dancer outside of trying to pay attention to the cast bar. The over reliance on dots was the most un-fun part of any class at the time imo. Now I actually go out of my way to pay attention to what summons I have left in this round when running around a dungeon. Far more engaging then "mmm yes, throw dots. Spam button". But go off fam. After lvling it from 1 to 80 on 3 different characters, id say the only one to have a worse lvling experience was blackmage. The only time summoner felt even slightly engaging was maxed content, and even then, it only felt that way due to still learning fights and managing cast bars. While new summoner is by no means hard, its far more engaging. And the feeling of at least being engaged by the job is going to make it feel more difficult.

I hope they just don't touch drg at all. The job is at a good place. We don't need it mutilated like summoner.

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Originally Posted by VentVanitas

https://i.gyazo.com/500545b54f2f7af6...832589c73a.png

Seems pretty complex to me

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If only the pet system actually had as much complexity as a toy for toddlers.

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Originally Posted by VentVanitas

https://i.gyazo.com/500545b54f2f7af6...832589c73a.png

Seems pretty complex to me

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This always makes my day

As for Drg either very good or very Verwy BAD no in between

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Originally Posted by Treesus

Never said either version was actually difficult, but at least within the rework I feel like im...actually doing stuff. Old summoner was boring in a solid 80 percent of content and felt more braindead then even dancer outside of trying to pay attention to the cast bar. The over reliance on dots was the most un-fun part of any class at the time imo. Now I actually go out of my way to pay attention to what summons I have left in this round when running around a dungeon. Far more engaging then "mmm yes, throw dots. Spam button". But go off fam. After lvling it from 1 to 80 on 3 different characters, id say the only one to have a worse lvling experience was blackmage. The only time summoner felt even slightly engaging was maxed content, and even then, it only felt that way due to still learning fights and managing cast bars. While new summoner is by no means hard, its far more engaging. And the feeling of at least being engaged by the job is going to make it feel more difficult.

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Can't seem to like this enough. :D

DoTs were definitely the worst part (after the pets). Then there was that whole ruin stacking thing you built up for when you needed some maneuverability or had to fill in some space between trances. It was all a clunky process. You wouldn't even use titan because the shield didn't give a stack. What was the point of being summoner if you didn't use all your summons? I don't understand how anyone can say things were better when something like that was going on.

The revamp streamlined that and basically add more trances and let you decide when to use them. The best part was getting full control of our DPS and that handy shield.


I love the fear of DRG being treated like summoner when it's not even broken or makes use of pets. If anything, they're tidying a few things up in the name of future-proofing.

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Originally Posted by VentVanitas

https://i.gyazo.com/500545b54f2f7af6...832589c73a.png

Seems pretty complex to me

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I feel this would make a better DNC meme then a SMN meme. Then again maybe a Simon says would be better for DNC since thats all the class feels like.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

Can't seem to like this enough. :D

DoTs were definitely the worst part (after the pets). Then there was that whole ruin stacking thing you built up for when you needed some maneuverability or had to fill in some space between trances. It was all a clunky process. You wouldn't even use titan because the shield didn't give a stack. What was the point of being summoner if you didn't use all your summons? I don't understand how anyone can say things were better when something like that was going on.

The revamp streamlined that and basically add more trances and let you decide when to use them. The best part was getting full control of our DPS and that handy shield.


I love the fear of DRG being treated like summoner when it's not even broken or makes use of pets. If anything, they're tidying a few things up in the name of future-proofing.

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Pets were a total mess and anyone who defends them should be regarded with a grain of salt at best. Dots are just boring. I do realize there are those who enjoy them, but on a majority the player base has shown they dont. While ill never mourn their loss, maybe we will see a DOT focused class so the 5 whiny old summoner mains can have their due. Trances just felt off. And yes, titan was a massive mistake in old summoner that had little to no use. As per usual, there will always be a handful of people who cry about how things once were, while a majority either dont care or are pleased by the changes. Just so happens that the ones who are angry are usually also the ones going on a board to cry about it. I think square has shown a pretty straight forward change in class ideals as changes have gone forward, and are on a majority doing the same type of changes to most classes. Personally, I enjoy them. I far more enjoy the snappy faster paced combat of how most jobs currently play to the older styled buff reliant job styles of HW and Stormblood. Most jobs in themselves are not even hard. 99 percent of every job is muscle memory, and the few times its not is only applied to a handful of classes. Tanks and casters for the most part given how they are the ones most needed to actually know mechanics. People cowering in fear are just doing so because they are stuck in an older form of combat ideals that square has shown a blatant distaste for, and instead of doing anything worthwhile, they simply scream into the everyawning void of the interent how things were SOOO much better before. It is how it will always be. While im not going to say jobs are prefect currently (healers being one MAJOR issue currently), I think most are fun. Ive lvled everything to 80, 3 different times for my 3 different characters. All the jobs I use to dislike the most are low and behold the ones getting reworks/changes. Untill we see the changes, I do think its silly for anyone to get up in arms. But its the internet. Rationality is in short supply here.

DoTs are fun and I won't stop asking for them back on SCH, SCH players didn't want them removed

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

DoTs are fun and I won't stop asking for them back on SCH, SCH players didn't want them removed

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Well, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but it doesn't seem the majority of players agree. Look, ill say it plain, I hate dots. In every mmo. I do hope for the players who do enjoy them that you all get thrown a bone. 7.0 seems like it should be including a new caster class, so even though ill probably never play it, heres hoping its a dot heavy class. As for dots on SCH....eh? I dont play enough of it to really have any opinion at all. Got it to 80, never touched again. Not a fan of shield healers personally. I know 1 off and on again SCH main and they dint seem to have strong opinions either way. With them its usually just a constant low pitched screaming about how he loves and hates pets at the same time.

"Don't worry guys machinist lost everything that made It unique except the turret/queen so the devs could add more things along the way!" Then MCH gets like 20 potency on drill and air anchor all through out shadowbringers. "Well yea they save the good stuff for the next expansion" Nice another 90 second cooldown :^). The class is exactly the same as before

"Don't worry the summoner rework will be amazing because you get to summon PRIMALS" literally gutted the class, removed all complexities because everyone and their mom should be given a shiny good job you did It you pressed a button class.

Whats unique about DRK? TBN? cool an ability that keeps that class crippled because the devs can't seem to give DRK anything else because TBN lmao other than that Its all edge.

Sam dodge a bullet with only having Kaiten removed but even then there were a lot of players confused as to why or straight up didn't want It removed, It was an ability that did something simple and had a cool animation, but sure lets blame button bloat again.

There Is a reason people are skeptical about the announced changes to DRG and AST, for Dragoon the only thing I can think of that would be nice is a change to the eye buff being made to be like dancer and thats it leave the damn class alone. But for AST? thats even more confusing to me, unless they are finally removing Undraw or helping with their busy opener, there should be a near zero reason for them to change AST they just got reworked with the xpansion launch.

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Originally Posted by Treesus

Well, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but it doesn't seem the majority of players agree. Look, ill say it plain, I hate dots. In every mmo. I do hope for the players who do enjoy them that you all get thrown a bone. 7.0 seems like it should be including a new caster class, so even though ill probably never play it, heres hoping its a dot heavy class.

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Are you conflating your individual opinion with "the majority of players" there? There's no hard evidence to suggest that more players disliked interactions around DoTs or other soft CDs than liked them.

Additionally, why should those who liked DoTs only be "thrown a bone" via a new job, instead of the already functional, DoT-centric ones that were already in play?

"You seem to be enjoying that. But hey, I the majority of players would prefer that what you like is removed. Still, here's some charity, unnecessary though it may be. You might even enjoy it the half as well as what you enjoyed before."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Treesus

Well, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but it doesn't seem the majority of players agree.

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SCH is consistently the 2nd lowest played healer despite the ShB changes, the ShB SCH ""rework"" is well hated and the DoTs are consistently asked to be given back, just go look at any suggestion thread for SCH or healers and Miasma, Bane and Shadow Flare will constantly come up as things people want back. I don't care what the majority of players agree with when the majority of players aren't playing SCH to begin with, even with the ShB gutting the job is still consistently the 2nd least played healer in the game. Maybe it's time for SE to accept that making it 'WHM with a book' hasn't brought people to the job? If the majority of players didn't find DoTs fun, they could just... not play SCH? Seems like the appropriate action, especially considering SCHs weren't asking for them to be removed in the first place.

I don't see why we should need a "new DoT caster!" when that's what SCH was. Give SCH back.

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

SCH is consistently the 2nd lowest played healer despite the ShB changes, the ShB SCH ""rework"" is well hated and the DoTs are consistently asked to be given back, just go look at any suggestion thread for SCH or healers and Miasma, Bane and Shadow Flare will constantly come up as things people want back. I don't care what the majority of players agree with when the majority of players aren't playing SCH to begin with, even with the ShB gutting the job is still consistently the 2nd least played healer in the game. Maybe it's time for SE to accept that making it 'WHM with a book' hasn't brought people to the job? If the majority of players didn't find DoTs fun, they could just... not play SCH? Seems like the appropriate action, especially considering SCHs weren't asking for them to be removed in the first place.

I don't see why we should need a "new DoT caster!" when that's what SCH was. Give SCH back.

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As said, I have so little knowledge about SCH that I have little to no input on it. While id guess that square will probably just keep doing stuff to try and make it more appealing to others, I can also see the argument of just letting you guys have your thing since most people are uninterested anyways. Healers in general seems to be in an odd state, and even with more popular ones, I cant say I think any of them are in a good state. My whole "hope you get a new one" wasent meant to be mean or sarcastic. I just dont really see square giving old scholar back, so id say a new dot focused class may be the best situation. While I dont enjoy dots, I do genuinely hope you get something. Either scholar being given them back, or something new all together. Maybe we will see the kaiten changes be revoked, which will give perhaps some hope to square reverting certain changes.