Savage Raids are poorly designed and Enrage is fake difficulty.

You people are a walking advertisement for banning parsers.

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Originally Posted by JamieRose

Expecting 8 people to perform 15 minutes of mechanics without losing DPS, without a single death and all this while poorly communicating is the crux of everything that makes Savage raiding a horrible experience, the icing on that inedible cake is enrage which enforces this mechanic through fake difficulty and removes any flexibility or room for error.

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I share this opinion, and that's why I don't do Savage raiding. However, I also understand that lots of players get a thrill out of being tortured in this manner, and I wholeheartedly believe that their wishes should be respected, too. No one is forcing you to Savage raid. At least this game isn't like WoW where you're expected to repeatedly run Mythic dungeons on a tight timer just to get your endgame gear. The beauty of this game is that it has something for everyone. For the sake of your sanity, leave Savage players to their Savage content, and stick to roulettes.

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Originally Posted by LisSquid

Savage is good and fine.

P3s sucks hard and I hope who designed it stubs their toe.

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We do not speak of the Brooklyn Bird. The most terrifying raid boss to fight in a while.

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Originally Posted by JamieRose

You people are a walking advertisement for banning parsers.

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lol, just work on yourself man. It's supposed to be hard content, if you're struggling you need to try to identify where at and try to work it out. Blaming the game/others/evil parsers won't get you to improve

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Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE

I'm sorry but perhaps Minecraft would be a more suitable challenge for your skill level.
If i can clear savage fights with ease, and my skill level is dreadful, then you really don't know how to play your job.

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Getting carried by groups doesn't count.

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

Multi-phase fights (E12S, P4S, etc.) tend to have an overall 15 minute-ish timer if you count both phases as one fight; for instance P4S phase 1 is ~7 minutes for enrage, P4S phase 2 is ~8 minutes.

That said, we only get at most one checkpointed multi-phase fight per tier, and not even that every tier, so... yes, I would agree with you that 10 minutes is the more commonly encountered enrage timer.

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I guess but you don't have to go from beating phase 1 of P4s then immediately start ACT1 after the cutscene. You reset then start form that point. I mean a non-ultimate fight that is straight up 15 mins with no door boss.

Well enrages need to exist, otherwise fights become wars of attrition. Trust me I know from experience that this can happen on two occasions. THe first was all the way back in ARR in an Ifrit hard mode. It lasted 25 minutes and I used 4-5 healer lb 3's in order to bring back everyone that was dead. It was not a great experience. The other was an o5 normal with the train. People kept dying and healers kept getting caught by the ghosts whenever they appeared. It took a total of 21 minutes. If fights don't enrage, they will default to a loop of mechanics that everyone has already seen, The only pressure would be if healers can manage their mp well but with the wealth of ogcds, and mp recovery tools that healers have, unless someone is dying every 5-6 seconds, they are not going to run out.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

We do not speak of the Brooklyn Bird. The most terrifying raid boss to fight in a while.

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Listening to Sea Shanty 2 [10 hours] got me through it. Numbs the pain.

It's actual difficulty. It is meant to be hard. People need to stop asking for easier stuff.

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Originally Posted by JamieRose

You people are a walking advertisement for banning parsers.

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Here's the thing - you're making several broad, subjective, and even questionable statements, and pointing at other people. Liking the design or not of the fights is entirely subjective, but a time limit is "fake difficulty"? Something that's been in games, not even just video, any games - competitions - since conception? And then you blame ToXiCiTY oF SaVaGE RaiDeRS? Sorry, but it really just sounds like sour grapes that you struggle with what savage fights demand, and looking to blame everyone/thing else first.

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Originally Posted by Curisu

So true. You rarely see these top player's in normal PF because they have their own HC group of people they play with.
But when you encounter one in the wild then they are one one the most helpful player I've encountered.

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Honestly, the bigger issue is that most groups don't want the help because we cost them valuable drops.

The days of helping coach other groups through coil freely are long gone sadly =(

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Originally Posted by DRHaymaker

Here's the thing - you're making several broad, subjective, and even questionable statements, and pointing at other people. Liking the design or not of the fights is entirely subjective, but a time limit is "fake difficulty"? Something that's been in games, not even just video, any games - competitions - since conception? And then you blame ToXiCiTY oF SaVaGE RaiDeRS? Sorry, but it really just sounds like sour grapes that you struggle with what savage fights demand, and looking to blame everyone/thing else first.

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The enrage timer exists to enforce a single approach to clearing, player ingenuity and creativity is punished. That is artificial difficulty and it has the side-effect of fomenting toxicity in savage raiders who will accept nothing less than perfection.

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Originally Posted by JamieRose

The enrage timer exists to enforce a single approach to clearing, player ingenuity and creativity is punished. That is artificial difficulty and it has the side-effect of fomenting toxicity in savage raiders who will accept nothing less than perfection.

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I really do not understand what kind of backwards logic you used to come up with this.

Also, no savage raider expects perfection, just competence.

I usually just find it the 1-2 pugs in your team or someone not listening in party finder, which is the hardest part of savage. The savage part isn't the fight but getting a person with the ability to work with others more than four pulls in practice.

However, once you find the right team, it's usually a gratifying experience; however, you need to have people with like-minded goals. Having some people there for fun and others for a clear will not work.

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Originally Posted by JamieRose

The enrage timer exists to enforce a single approach to clearing, player ingenuity and creativity is punished. That is artificial difficulty and it has the side-effect of fomenting toxicity in savage raiders who will accept nothing less than perfection.

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Would you yourself say that you are close to perfection?

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Originally Posted by JamieRose

The enrage timer exists to enforce a single approach to clearing, player ingenuity and creativity is punished. That is artificial difficulty and it has the side-effect of fomenting toxicity in savage raiders who will accept nothing less than perfection.

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What is the other approach to clearing with no enrage timer?

87 deaths and 45 min fights because you can just keep raising?

Doesn't that kind of defeat the "skill" aspect of it?

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Originally Posted by JamieRose

The enrage timer exists to enforce a single approach to clearing, player ingenuity and creativity is punished. That is artificial difficulty and it has the side-effect of fomenting toxicity in savage raiders who will accept nothing less than perfection.

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Nothing less than perfection! Witness the toxicity!

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Originally Posted by JamieRose

Expecting 8 people to perform 15 minutes of mechanics without losing DPS, without a single death and all this while poorly communicating is the crux of everything that makes Savage raiding a horrible experience, the icing on that inedible cake is enrage which enforces this mechanic through fake difficulty and removes any flexibility or room for error.

It's no wonder all the toxicity in FFXIV comes from the savage raiding community, which is in turn why we have all these parsers controversies which are taking up the devs focus. This problem could easily be fixed by offering a little wiggle room for mistakes and removing the pointless enrage function but I guess that's not happening any time soon.

Now I'll sit back and wait for all the accusations of "trolling" or me not "gitting gud" to spew forth like the contents of an overflowing toilet.

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Think I said before that it shouldn't take over 2 months to clear a savage tier because it gets in the way of doing other things in the game, but this comment was more on the subject that there are a lot of people who want something that makes being good at a job worth it, and a lot of these people do not have the time to tackle something like savage for 3-4 days strait for 3 hours a piece. Some of the most common statics I've seen around are 2 day ones and those guys are just getting blocked by mechanics even with better gear.

Also, despite the enrage savage is not really about DPS. Savage is more about learning what the different patterns are at each stage of the fight, coming up with a strategy, getting 7 other people to all agree on the same strategy, and then practicing the execution of said strategy. All of those final steps are sort of like herding cats in PF, and I'm pretty sure people are dying to not agreeing to a proper strategy long before damage is even a factor. I mean you obviously are not going to make a dps check if half your party died during the fight.

There isn't a savage fight in the game you can't clear with multiple deaths if everyone is doing their rotations and outputing damage properly.

The final fight of a tier is typically the hardest and may require more gear, but it still has a lot of leeway.

Oh savage is problematic because of damage. The fights are designed around having X amount of time to complete and all mechanics are built on a timeline through the fight. If a group does more damage than another group, they can skip the tail end of the fight and depending on the mechanics at the tail end, can make the fight far easier than it should be.

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Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE

I'm sorry but perhaps Minecraft would be a more suitable challenge for your skill level.
If i can clear savage fights with ease, and my skill level is dreadful, then you really don't know how to play your job.

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I get your point but this sounds more like you get carried

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Honestly I think they're unlikely to ever improve by more than insignificant margins. Their mindset is stubbornly set at "all my faults are someone else's fault".

For once I have to say "troll thread" and leave it at that.

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As naive as I sounded, I really hoped they did.

But boy, last few replies made me realize they're the epitome of what people call 'the lost cause'. I regretted for giving them the benefit of doubt.

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Originally Posted by LisSquid

Listening to Sea Shanty 2 [10 hours] got me through it. Numbs the pain.

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I had To The Edge blasting on repeat every time I stepped in there. I can listen to that song for days without issue.

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Originally Posted by JamieRose

The enrage timer exists to enforce a single approach to clearing, player ingenuity and creativity is punished. That is artificial difficulty and it has the side-effect of fomenting toxicity in savage raiders who will accept nothing less than perfection.

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Except it doesn't. There's fights with different strategies for mechanics, and those can change depending on what classes are in your party. You're either woefully misinformed, or lying - probably the former.

"Enrage is fake difficulty"...? So you want the alternative to be that any terrible set of players, regardless of their mechanical prowess, damage capabilities, competence or skill is able to clear content by just throwing themselves at the same pull, constantly re-rezzing deadweight players and never having any "threat" of failure? Because that's what enrage timers avoid. Enrage is not artificial difficulty it is the only thing that makes these fights difficult in the first place, as otherwise you'd simply be able to just endurance run a fight until you beat it like in most normal modes encounters—which would then lead to monotonous fights and bosses that have no real bite to their bark, so to speak.

At that point, just send in a group for 4 tanks and 4 healers to every piece of content because the actual likelihood of dying (outside of mechanics that require DPS to resolve them) would be so miniscule that you could cheese every fight and just outlast the boss. That's not even fun at that point.

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Originally Posted by JamieRose

You people are a walking advertisement for banning parsers.

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You're a walking example of why we should have them.

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Originally Posted by JamieRose

The enrage timer exists to enforce a single approach to clearing, player ingenuity and creativity is punished. That is artificial difficulty and it has the side-effect of fomenting toxicity in savage raiders who will accept nothing less than perfection.

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What creativity? Playing badly and brute forcing the mechanics? No enrage timer just means you can ignore mechanics and die as many times as you want. Learn the fight, practice your rotation on SSS and if you're on PC learn to keybind.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

What creativity? Playing badly and brute forcing the mechanics? No enrage timer just means you can ignore mechanics and die as many times as you want. Learn the fight, practice your rotation on SSS and if you're on PC learn to keybind.

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That's toxic! Don't you know they're uh... *checks notes* incapable of improving at the game and therefore wish for the game to cater to their every whim?

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Originally Posted by JamieRose

The enrage timer exists to enforce a single approach to clearing, player ingenuity and creativity is punished. That is artificial difficulty and it has the side-effect of fomenting toxicity in savage raiders who will accept nothing less than perfection.

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I savage raid with 7 others in a static. I was not required to have a parse of a certain level to join. We are all jumping into savage raiding this tier. And they let me join on my main class: black mage.

I've had slight improvement in my DPS since I started doing savage.

I've died more times than I can count. Sometimes multiple times per run. And on a majority of those runs where I've died, we've beaten it. We're working on P3S currently. We've had real life interfere with frequency of raiding and we aren't smooth through P1S and P2S, so sometimes we spend the entire time reclearing instead of progging.

I've not once been fussed at or yelled at or even asked to improve my DPS.

It would be clear to anyone watching the fight that I'm not playing perfectly. Don't even need a parser or anything. If you see my ley lines down in any situation other than 4 fold shackles in P1S, I've hit my ley lines accidentally most likely.

So not all savage raiders demand perfection, and I'd be willing to bet that most don't. Yes, there will always be the toxic minority who demand perfection out of everyone (but yet aren't themselves).

I've seen multiple strategies for certain mechanics in the raids where there isn't a single answer. Many times, the strategies will not coexist with each other so groups have to agree beforehand and one stubborn person who decides to do it the way they want to even if the other 7 decided to do it a different way can cause problems if not a wipe. There's one mechanic in P2S that we initially tried to YOLO, but we weren't good at that. So we did assigned positions based on what markers we got. A later mechanic we all tended to YOLO to the same separate spot and did not need to assign positions for it. It could likely be the reverse for other groups.

So the enrage timer doesn't mean that there can only be one way to win the fight.

15 minutes? A single death causing a wipe? Are we talking about Ultimate here?! haha I cleared the tier fairly early and every fight was do-able with a death. Door boss could be a bit spicy, but no other dps check was really that bad. A few gear upgrades and all the fights could be cleared with a few deaths.

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Originally Posted by DRHaymaker

Except it doesn't. There's fights with different strategies for mechanics, and those can change depending on what classes are in your party. You're either woefully misinformed, or lying - probably the former.

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Yup. Savage actually has a bit of a problem when the mechanics let people get too creative and you end up with multiple strategies... like every other phase of p3s.

Also funny Angienessyo thinks that a single death wont kill a savage run. I guess he skipped out on all the fun with Phoenix FoF, Phoenix baby birds, and probably FoA. Actually I take that back, you can survive FoF with a healer down if you have someone martyr themselves on the burning circle of flaming death, but then you have two people dead with weakness and you got to pray to every known deity that the other healer is ready to go turbo mode.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

Yup. Savage actually has a bit of a problem when the mechanics let people get too creative and you end up with multiple strategies... like every other phase of p3s.

Also funny Angienessyo thinks that a single death wont kill a savage run. I guess he skipped out on all the fun with Phoenix FoF, Phoenix baby birds, and probably FoA. Actually I take that back, you can survive FoF with a healer down if you have someone martyr themselves on the burning circle of flaming death, but then you have two people dead with weakness and you got to pray to every known deity that the other healer is ready to go turbo mode.

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Having multiple strategies is not inherently a bad thing, it just becomes bad when it's cheese strategies like goodbye world.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

Having multiple strategies is not inherently a bad thing, it just becomes bad when it's cheese strategies like goodbye world.

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It's more a bad thing because the content is accessible by random PF groups. The very thing that the designers use to make the fight challenging for a coordinated group is hell on wheels when someone throws a bunch of people with varying schedules, attention span, and no validation of progress into a fight with incredibly loose mechanics. And that's probably why the OP thinks savage is awful. Again, it's the devs problem if people can't clear the content in a reasonable time, not the people who seek it out. And FYI I think that Ultimate is very well thought out compared to savage. Savage is just a gear grind continuation that gets mistaken for a trophy run, and the devs sort of mistakenly believe that the curve of complexity they have in savage fits the bill for what every person who continues gear progression wants out of end game.

Fact is gearing is way too slow, the mechanic complexity kind of goes up way too fast after extreme mode for a lot of people, and the fights in savage are built to tie down people with way more time than what most folks have. They'd basically suffer nothing if they make the content doable in 2 months time by people who can only do it two nights a week for a couple of hours, which is the majority of statics from what I can tell.

And yeah, I'd expect people to complain about that direction, but after doing this stuff for the last three tiers and going through every possible thing that can go wrong with savage, PF, and static parties, they need to get away from this design direction because FFXIV doesn't need it. If they want to make a challenge mode, don't stick gear grind on it.

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Originally Posted by JamieRose

Expecting 8 people to perform 15 minutes of mechanics without losing DPS, without a single death and all this while poorly communicating is the crux of everything that makes Savage raiding a horrible experience, the icing on that inedible cake is enrage which enforces this mechanic through fake difficulty and removes any flexibility or room for error.

It's no wonder all the toxicity in FFXIV comes from the savage raiding community, which is in turn why we have all these parsers controversies which are taking up the devs focus. This problem could easily be fixed by offering a little wiggle room for mistakes and removing the pointless enrage function but I guess that's not happening any time soon.

Now I'll sit back and wait for all the accusations of "trolling" or me not "gitting gud" to spew forth like the contents of an overflowing toilet.

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*devs make a hard raid.*
Player 1: OMG RAID TOO HARD, DAFUQ!
Devs:*Make it slightly easier*
Player 2: HOLY BALLS, THIS IS EASY WTF!
Devs:*sigh and make it harder*
Player 3: JESUS H CHRIST, ARE WE EVEN SUPPOSED TO BEAT THIS!?
Devs:*Audibly grunt and make it easier*
Player 4: WOW, THIS IS TOO EASY, DO THEY EVEN LISTEN!?
Devs:*Now have a pissed off look. Make the raid Harder.*
Player 5: I' CAN'T DODGE TWO ASSCLAPPER 9000s! I'LL NEVER EXPERIENCE THE RAID!
Devs: *Red in the face and drawing blood from biting their lip. Makes it easier."
Player 6: WOOW, LISTENING TO RAM RANCH IS MORE ENGAGING THAN THIS.
Devs: *Veins bulging, bloodshot eyes, muffled screaming. Make it harder.*
Player 7: WHAT IS THIS, DARK SOULS? I'M GONNA QUIT!
Devs: *release a patch to replace older raid. It's just a giant middle finger that spawns furry trash mobs for all eternity. You can't leave the game or you get banned, and if you die it's permadeath.*


I can't really blame the players, but I can't blame the devs either in this case. Things that are hard are meant to be hard for a reason. No, I'm not going to condemn you for having a hard time, because I've dealt with things of this nature myself. I just switched over to PVP to remedy the problem, as I was never much of a raider.

As for that gigantic wall of text that I wrote, it has nothing to do with any of this.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

Yup. Savage actually has a bit of a problem when the mechanics let people get too creative and you end up with multiple strategies... like every other phase of p3s.

Also funny Angienessyo thinks that a single death wont kill a savage run. I guess he skipped out on all the fun with Phoenix FoF, Phoenix baby birds, and probably FoA. Actually I take that back, you can survive FoF with a healer down if you have someone martyr themselves on the burning circle of flaming death, but then you have two people dead with weakness and you got to pray to every known deity that the other healer is ready to go turbo mode.

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I was on P3S week 1 with really bad loot luck, a single death usually didn't end up in a wipe in my group. It was multiple deaths that resulted in the wipe. Of course I did the tier on RDM so there was never a time someone was down for more than a second unless I'd died haha I only remember door boss being any punishing without gear.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

It's more a bad thing because the content is accessible by random PF groups. The very thing that the designers use to make the fight challenging for a coordinated group is hell on wheels when someone throws a bunch of people with varying schedules, attention span, and no validation of progress into a fight with incredibly loose mechanics. And that's probably why the OP thinks savage is awful. Again, it's the devs problem if people can't clear the content in a reasonable time, not the people who seek it out. And FYI I think that Ultimate is very well thought out compared to savage. Savage is just a gear grind continuation that gets mistaken for a trophy run, and the devs sort of mistakenly believe that the curve of complexity they have in savage fits the bill for what every person who continues gear progression wants out of end game.

Fact is gearing is way too slow, the mechanic complexity kind of goes up way too fast after extreme mode for a lot of people, and the fights in savage are built to tie down people with way more time than what most folks have. They'd basically suffer nothing if they make the content doable in 2 months time by people who can only do it two nights a week for a couple of hours, which is the majority of statics from what I can tell.

And yeah, I'd expect people to complain about that direction, but after doing this stuff for the last three tiers and going through every possible thing that can go wrong with savage, PF, and static parties, they need to get away from this design direction because FFXIV doesn't need it. If they want to make a challenge mode, don't stick gear grind on it.

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OP thinks savage is awful because they refuse to accept the possibility that they themselves are just not very good at the game, massively limiting their own growth. PFs usually state which strat they want and often times there are reasons for every strat (although not always smart reasons). How you are jumping from there to gearing is a mystery to me however. Gearing is an issue worth talking about but not really in this thread and speaking from personal experience finishing this current tier in two months is entirely possible on a 4 hours split over two days raiding time per week schedule.

The problem often encountered in PF and statics is that people do not want to accept that their mistakes are holding the party back and instead blame everyone else for it. Sure, no one wants to be the dummy of the group but by dismissing that possibility out of hand you are denying yourself the chance to improve and only make it worse. This has nothing to do with mechanics having multiple ways of solving them.

The benefit of having to clear a fight multiple times is that you probably have to do more than just get in a lucky clear and then never again.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

OP thinks savage is awful because they refuse to accept the possibility that they themselves are just not very good at the game, massively limiting their own growth. PFs usually state which strat they want and often times there are reasons for every strat (although not always smart reasons). How you are jumping from there to gearing is a mystery to me however. Gearing is an issue worth talking about but not really in this thread and speaking from personal experience finishing this current tier in two months is entirely possible on a 4 hours split over two days raiding time per week schedule.

The problem often encountered in PF and statics is that people do not want to accept that their mistakes are holding the party back and instead blame everyone else for it. Sure, no one wants to be the dummy of the group but by dismissing that possibility out of hand you are denying yourself the chance to improve and only make it worse. This has nothing to do with mechanics having multiple ways of solving them.

The benefit of having to clear a fight multiple times is that you probably have to do more than just get in a lucky clear and then never again.

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To be fair, they could be good at the game, it's just that PVE might not be their calling. However, SE is very forgiving in its difficulty compare to other games out there that have more convoluted mechanics. I'd say "Keep trying" and if they have trouble, put them behind PVP, and see if that works.

I do agree that I'm not a fan of FFXIV's raid design. In WoW, multiple party members can botch multiple mechanics and the raid doesn't instantly wipe. In WoW, the difficulty of a raid is more about the long battle of attrition, trying to conserve your limited mana, cooldowns, and resurrections. Whereas in FFXIV it's just a matter of doing it again and again until that one time where everyone passes every mechanic.

As for enrages, the design philosophy behind it is to keep players from being burnt out on long fights. I prefer soft enrages to hard enrages, though. It feels pretty unfair to whittle a boss down to 0.5% but you ran out of time so the game arbitrarily decides to kill everyone. A soft enrage where the boss rapidly begins gaining stacks of a damage buff would give you more leeway.

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Originally Posted by MoofiaBossVal

I do agree that I'm not a fan of FFXIV's raid design. In WoW, multiple party members can botch multiple mechanics and the raid doesn't instantly wipe. In WoW, the difficulty of a raid is more about the long battle of attrition, trying to conserve your limited mana, cooldowns, and resurrections. Whereas in FFXIV it's just a matter of doing it again and again until that one time where everyone passes every mechanic.

As for enrages, the design philosophy behind it is to keep players from being burnt out on long fights. I prefer soft enrages to hard enrages, though. It feels pretty unfair to whittle a boss down to 0.5% but you ran out of time so the game arbitrarily decides to kill everyone. A soft enrage where the boss rapidly begins gaining stacks of a damage buff would give you more leeway.

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Took the thoughts I was thinking right out of my noggin, but I'll contest you on the enrage timer. The lack of a race against resource depletion (lives included) is why the enrage timers in 14 are so tight. You have unlimited brezing (yes, as mana allows, but this isn't something you can get away with in WoW. Think how often Alliance Raids would crumble if it had an enrage. How many runs are won after picking every single member off the floor?), you have healers with an infinitely refilling mana pool, and you have dps that don't quit. They want you to do it all correctly (with some margin for error), and we aren't also juggling a bunch of other variables.



(They also don't have to design fights around jobs having, say, a literal exclusion zone for an ability, etc, so it's very A to B to C. They can make fights tightly choreographed because they don't have DKs running around death gripping an add out of place to negate the mechanic.)

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Originally Posted by Saraide

OP thinks savage is awful because they refuse to accept the possibility that they themselves are just not very good at the game, massively limiting their own growth. PFs usually state which strat they want and often times there are reasons for every strat (although not always smart reasons). How you are jumping from there to gearing is a mystery to me however. Gearing is an issue worth talking about but not really in this thread and speaking from personal experience finishing this current tier in two months is entirely possible on a 4 hours split over two days raiding time per week schedule.

The problem often encountered in PF and statics is that people do not want to accept that their mistakes are holding the party back and instead blame everyone else for it. Sure, no one wants to be the dummy of the group but by dismissing that possibility out of hand you are denying yourself the chance to improve and only make it worse. This has nothing to do with mechanics having multiple ways of solving them.

The benefit of having to clear a fight multiple times is that you probably have to do more than just get in a lucky clear and then never again.

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It's a bit more than that. It can genuinely be difficult sometimes to gauge where the problem is, or even if you have personally passed and understand a particular part of a fight, because the fight is both the strategy being employed by the party, the mechanic the boss uses, and the role one has. It is truly a mess at times.

Also you can say that but I just lived through this and a lot of parties could not clear in 2 months. If a group is going for 2 hours a day for 2 days a week, it's going to take them at least 3 months without someone who jumped ahead leading them. Even then, it's probably going to take the same amount of time.

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Originally Posted by Vav2021

To be fair, they could be good at the game, it's just that PVE might not be their calling. However, SE is very forgiving in its difficulty compare to other games out there that have more convoluted mechanics. I'd say "Keep trying" and if they have trouble, put them behind PVP, and see if that works.

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I never said I was the best at this game, but I didn't sign on to play Starcraft either and that's what a lot of these savage raids feel like. It requires some kind of mythical skill that can only be obtained through being born with it or an intravenous drip of Rockstar and Mountain Dew.