FFXIV Biggest Disease....Parsing

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Originally Posted by DivineP

Hello!

Thank You for your response.

Can you watch a specific person among 23 other people whilst dodging mechanics in the 80 raids without add-ons?

Edit: I turn party effects off or I can't see a thing in those things! I can see things like cast bars, agro numbers on the party etc but it's mayhem with the effects on! xD

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Honestly, once you've got the fight memorised, recent 24 man content is actually amongst the easiest to observe and tutor other people as there's almost no random factor to the encounter whatsoever. Byregot takes this to the absolute extremes, assuming you arms length the pushback and thunder cross there's nothing you need to pay attention to for several minutes at a time.

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Originally Posted by DivineP

Indeed.

If you would like to respond to my first post darling, that's fine. However my quote was in reply to someone else so we could discuss the topic.

Please don't derail the thread with comments like that. :)

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I will gracefully pass on that advice, love.

Sorry.

Instead of putting you on blast, I'm going to try and explain why, for NIN specifically, why. It's because of Trick Attack and more recently, Mug. Since you need to set up Trick, and both are a very unusual color and contrast in comparison to most debuffs (yellow/black). The application of these buffs fall in line at a very set 60/120, which proceed to cycle. And because it's a debuff, not a personal, every person who is attacking the enemy, even outside of your own party, will know it's missing if they have even a surface level understanding of NIN's rotation. If you don't have your Trick debuff, that probably means Ten Chi Jin is late as well, which can lead to dealignment. Mug being late delays it from other jobs 2 minute buffs, which is fairly obvious, since every job in the game has a 2 minute burst window now, many of which are deliberately stockpiled, such as RDM or SAM.

60s Trick Attack has been the burst window metronome for many years. People hold their bursts for Trick and Mug because it's incredibly consistent. The damage up part of it being 2 mins instead of 1 min in 6.1 doesn't change that, as long as Suiton set up still exists for the NIN specifically.

I like how many people are just completely not getting Chair's point whatsoever, as I anticipated many wouldn't.

Parsing isn't the Big Bad but at the end of the day, its only real purpose is for self improvement and knowing where you as a group need to change or improve to clear a Savage/Ultimate level fight. Anything beyond that is players placing more importance on it than it actually has.

Numbers chasing isn't inherently bad, either, but when you begin neglecting your job role or screwing things up for your party, all for the sake of padding your parse, that's where it's being used improperly and has become a disease to the player in question.

That's it, that's the entire point of the video.

Hi,

Thanks for your reply.

My issue is, if i use raiton (a lightning strike) with effects off, you can't see it or the buff build up leading to it from the Mundra. (No indicators under the party member template)

I wonder how someone would be able to see if I'm using Raiton (optimal on single target) or if I'm using katon (optimal on multiple target) there's just no way to tell unless you are severely focusing on someone's game play and affecting your own performance.

If effects are on then I can't track it in all the chaos! (So many flashes! Haha)

Things are easier to spot like Doton, which is a ground AoE - I never use that single target tho.

They could go by the agro list on the party list, but again without looking before hand who's got better gear, food, pots it's anyone's guess!

In summary, I just think it's unfair in a cross play game that one platform has an advantage. Especially with Cactbot.

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Originally Posted by DivineP

Hello!

Thank You for your response.

Can you watch a specific person among 23 other people whilst dodging mechanics in the 80 raids without add-ons?

Edit: I turn party effects off or I can't see a thing in those things! I can see things like cast bars, agro numbers on the party etc but it's mayhem with the effects on! xD

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In an alliance raid? Absolutely. Nothing mechanically challenging happens. All that's left is having to know your own job well enough to do it with little attention and to know the other person's job well enough to look out for key points.

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Originally Posted by DivineP

My issue is, if i use raiton (a lightning strike) with effects off, you can't see it or the buff build up leading to it from the Mundra. (No indicators under the party member template)

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Unless I'm misunderstanding you, you turning effects down only affects your client, not other player's. They would have to have effects turned low or off as well, otherwise it's quite easy to see when someone is doing something wrong.

Granted, they could also be a weirdo like me who relies on sound effects and character animations for jobs I'm intimately familiar with.

Also pretty sure even turning party effects off doesn't hide indicators on the party menu... those are always on display depending on people's settings.

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Originally Posted by DivineP

Hi!

Indeed! But how in the middle of all the other effects? (Maybe ppl are more observant than me haha!)

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I mean yeah, if someone plays a job often, they know what to look for. Could also be they have all outside-of-party effects turned down, but leave party and self on.

Idk man, weird argument to make.

I'm too lazy to install ACT, so when I notice something is wrong, it's because I know what to look for (and also, you can definitely feel when things are dying slower than they should, trust me).

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Originally Posted by Saraide

In an alliance raid? Absolutely. Nothing mechanically challenging happens. All that's left is having to know your own job well enough to do it with little attention and to know the other person's job well enough to look out for key points.

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Hi! :)

I posted below about effects etc.

Hi!

Indeed! But how in the middle of all the other effects? (Maybe ppl are more observant than me haha!)

I don't think I've ever had anyone make them parsing noticeable in any group I've been in, the only reason you'd ever know it was a thing if you don't use it yourself is if you join a logging group which would be your own fault.
I've had DPS being brought up before in a negative way but that has been because we could see the % of the boss after a certain phase being too high so our group DPS was clearly too low to kill ( this was mainly an issue in the first couple of groups in P2S, never had that issue past that but ppl are more geared now too ).

Parsing just seems to be the extension of a bigger problem this community has, which is trying to coach and teach players who have no interest in being taught, just focus on yourself and your own play.
If parsing really is for personal improvement, then people really shouldn't be turning it on in roulettes or normal content and just leave it to PF content and their static, but a lot of people definitely don't use it like that.

When you've played a job long enough you just learn to spot certain effects amidst the melee so to speak.

Finishing up the 6.1 story stuff, I instantly spotted Aero III from a certain npc that wasn't anyway near me for example.

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Originally Posted by DivineP

Hi,

Thanks for your reply.

My issue is, if i use raiton (a lightning strike) with effects off, you can't see it or the buff build up leading to it from the Mundra. (No indicators under the party member template)

I wonder how someone would be able to see if I'm using Raiton (optimal on single target) or if I'm using katon (optimal on multiple target) there's just no way to tell unless you are severely focusing on someone's game play and affecting your own performance.

If effects are on then I can't track it in all the chaos! (So many flashes! Haha)

Things are easier to spot like Doton, which is a ground AoE - I never use that single target tho.

They could go by the agro list on the party list, but again without looking before hand who's got better gear, food, pots it's anyone's guess!

In summary, I just think it's unfair in a cross play game that one platform has an advantage. Especially with Cactbot.

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It honestly doesn't matter what content you're in. If I'm bursting my own 2 minute, and you aren't locked in a Ten Chi Jin, not moving, and you didn't die recently, something is off. If my own job, DRK, has stockpiled full MP, and a DA proc with Esteem in the process of being summoned, and there's no Mug debuff, something is automatically wrong, and directly affects me from me contributing less damage overall because the damage up from Mug isn't there. i'm not saying this because it matters, because it really doesn't at all, I'm just pointing out how by observing how predictable the builder>spender job design has become, the observations one makes on their own job can be easily applied to others without taking any extra mental effort, the conclusions are essentially concrete via the game's own internal logic and design. Especially if it's NIN, because your debuffs are there for everyone to see. It's not even NIN specific, If you didn't put up Death's Design on RPR, I wouldn't need a parser or cactbot or even the aggro list to know you were doing something wrong. Just the debuffs on the current actor.

Reflecting on the conversations. Square should ensure casual content is unparsed and hide combat logs.

Extreme, savage and ultimate should have a damage meter, action meter, times hit by the bad. Etc screen on a clear or death.

My point was that PlayStation users do not have access to all this and therefore cannot conform to the standards of parses, cactbot etc. :)

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Originally Posted by DivineP

Hi!

Indeed! But how in the middle of all the other effects? (Maybe ppl are more observant than me haha!)

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Personally I just have allied battle effects turned to reduced or off. (delubrum and hunt trains made me do that) There is usually something easily noticable like massive trick attack (or now mug) drifting that will get the attention of someone particularly well versed with your job. Then it's mostly just a matter of looking at character animations. Even easier if they themselves are playing the same job as you are currently (nin in this case), then they can just straight up compare to where you roughly should be in your rotation.

Hello!

If you join a 60 or 90 min dungeon. Expect to spend that time! No matter how rare it is. That's the time limit you sign up for not 12. :)

Cheers!

@odinel

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

Parsing just seems to be the extension of a bigger problem this community has, which is trying to coach and teach players who have no interest in being taught, just focus on yourself and your own play.
If parsing really is for personal improvement, then people really shouldn't be turning it on in roulettes or normal content and just leave it to PF content and their static, but a lot of people definitely don't use it like that.

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That can be countered by the suggestion that there's a large portion of this community that has zero interest in doing any more than the absolute bare minimum the game asks of them (which is in itself an exceedingly low bar) and daring to try and help them is like running through a minefield at times no matter how tactful or cordial you are about it.

NIN thing is REALLY derailing this thread; But a very easy way to tell whether someone is doing their rotation "correctly" is looking at aggro positions in the group. A NIN being 6th-8th in aggro in the party without dying is definitely not playing correctly.

As for the original post; Parsing is a tool, a tool isn't a disease. The problem is a small amount of people that are using that tool to try to "prove" their self worth based on it. People ruin things.

The day I install ACT is the day i'll lose all fun playing 14.
Luckily i'm on PS so I couldn't even if I wanted to :D

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Originally Posted by LeonKeyh

NIN thing is REALLY derailing this thread; But a very easy way to tell whether someone is doing their rotation "correctly" is looking at aggro positions in the group. A NIN being 6th-8th in aggro in the party without dying is definitely not playing correctly.

As for the original post; Parsing is a tool, a tool isn't a disease. The problem is a small amount of people that are using that tool to try to "prove" their self worth based on it. People ruin things.

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I believe they are all valid facts as to add-ons in general. :)

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Originally Posted by gotaname1

there is only bigger disease in f14 than parsing and that is people complaining about it despite being literally unaffected by it. Bonus points if those players dont even do the content where the parsing happens.

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Everyone is affected by it when the devs water down all the jobs so they can have similar parses. There was a huge thread here where somebody posted a bunch of graphs of different jobs DPS and made a huge stink about how the jobs that had slightly less DPS were "dead".

The thing is, it's suppost to be against the ToS. I've also explained it's a cross gameplay and gives one side an advantage.

Something should be done to break all add-ons.

I love seeing ppl running around dying day one content!

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Originally Posted by LeonKeyh

The problem is a small amount of people that are using that tool to try to "prove" their self worth based on it. People ruin things.

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It's also not a huge problem inside of the officials or the game because GMs will quickly ban for it, but outside of those there are a lot of communities on Reddit, Discord, and others that definitely do the name and shame behavior with parses. They're just outside of what SE can enforce.
Places like talesfromdf and the like are what really give them a bad name, not the guy who just has it up while he practices P3S to see how he stacks up against a clear parse.

Parsing is absolutely a disease and the video is spot on.

Parsing wouldn’t be a disease if:
1. People used it to improve their rotation and get a general sense of where their damage should be.
2. People acknowledged there are several factors that determine success in a fight and damage is only one of them
3. High level parsing was kept to parsing groups only, not bleeding through all PF

Do people do this? No. No they don’t. And inevitably the wipers in PF are one of two bad players:
1. Players who have no idea what they are doing
2. Players who would otherwise be fine but are greeding to increase their parse

And the worst part is people do absolutely judge their self worth based on their parse and recruit for statics based on parses, locking other players out because they don’t have a static and PF is a mess. Good players or not.

I would care to say that some people defending parsing here couldn’t do otherwise because again, their self worth is determined by their parse. So to them, attacking parsing, is attacking them personally.

The game would be much better off if players would be required to pass the stone sea sky dummy before unlocking a savage fight and all parsing were disabled unless everyone in the group consented to it, like the recording feature.

But that would entail a parser being supported, which the creators of the game are against. It’s almost as if they know that people will misuse it on a massive scale and be jerks about it.

Parsing is neither good or bad in theory. In practice, actual reality, it has made the game experience worse.

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Originally Posted by LeonKeyh

NIN thing is REALLY derailing this thread; But a very easy way to tell whether someone is doing their rotation "correctly" is looking at aggro positions in the group. A NIN being 6th-8th in aggro in the party without dying is definitely not playing correctly.

As for the original post; Parsing is a tool, a tool isn't a disease. The problem is a small amount of people that are using that tool to try to "prove" their self worth based on it. People ruin things.

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I don't think it's a derailment at all. If anything, it's a perfect example of just how little relevance there is in actually understanding anything versus having convenient scapegoats.

I literally just gave this person a relatively nuanced, fact based response on why people might be a bit confused a major part of the NIN identity is totally missing in an environment of 23 other people. At least ONE of them might be cognizant of it. (You'd have to be a real bellend to call someone out for it publicly though.)

Then I get hit with the "yeah it's totally reasonable to be stuck in Satasha for 60 mins. Yes, those 90min Delubrum Reginae runs were totally operating as intended, and not the 15 minute ones."

Parsing mattered a whole lot more when we actually had a skill ceiling to respect. We don't have a high skill ceiling anymore, so who actually cares what you parsed? It's not impressive! Frankly, I'm sick of the entire thing, because the people who need parsing to understand things don't or cannot look at them objectively, if at all, the people who do use parsing usually can't understand things like how percentiles actually work or even basic graphs, so they substitute it with only "color number" or "muh crit rate." And for the rest of us, people who care about data analysis over egos, have to put up with never ending turf war of people proud of being absolute garbage in a multiplayer game I'm paying for, and also people who believe being good at a video game makes them better as human beings.

Actual clown reality. When you cripple your skill ceiling, this is the result.

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Originally Posted by DivineP

The thing is, it's suppost to be against the ToS. I've also explained it's a cross gameplay and gives one side an advantage.

Something should be done to break all add-ons.

I love seeing ppl running around dying day one content!

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As long as someone in your party uploads the logs it doesnt matter if you are on PS. You still have access to it and can use stuff like xivanalysis to help you look for whatever improvement you want.

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

Everyone is affected by it when the devs water down all the jobs so they can have similar parses. There was a huge thread here where somebody posted a bunch of graphs of different jobs DPS and made a huge stink about how the jobs that had slightly less DPS were "dead".

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All of the jobs already have similar parses though, and it's been that way for a long time.

People love attributing job changes to people who parse but meanwhile all of the job changes piss off people who parse the most because all of these job changes lower the possible range where they can show off and bring the top parsers and the bottom parsers closer together.

Parsers aren't the villain that you're making them out to be, not in that respect at least.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

It's also not a huge problem inside of the officials or the game because GMs will quickly ban for it, but outside of those there are a lot of communities on Reddit, Discord, and others that definitely do the name and shame behavior with parses. They're just outside of what SE can enforce.
Places like talesfromdf and the like are what really give them a bad name, not the guy who just has it up while he practices P3S to see how he stacks up against a clear parse.

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TalesFromDF isn't even that bad. Most of the posts on there are 0 DPS healers, YPYT tanks, quality community members, tanks not using mitigation, and Cure I/Bene/Physick spammers. Sure, sometimes you get the occasional post with a very egregious parse, but if TalesfromDF is your example of something that gives them "a really bad name", then I'd say that this isn't a problem at all.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

2. Players who would otherwise be fine but are greeding to increase their parse

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I hope nobody calls you out for straw-manning, because this literally happens in my current static. Healer I replaced greeded his Aetherflow stacks on Energy Drain and barely ever used Sacred Soil. DRG in the group caused a few wipes at times on P3S add tethers because he would greed damage until the last second, moving to his position only at the very end and confusing anybody tethered to him.

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Originally Posted by RobynDaBank

I hope nobody calls you out for straw-manning, because this literally happens in my current static. Healer I replaced greeded his Aetherflow stacks on Energy Drain and barely ever used Sacred Soil. DRG in the group caused a few wipes at times on P3S add tethers because he would greed damage until the last second, moving to his position only at the very end and confusing anybody tethered to him.

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That dragoon was actually just an idiot because add phase on P3S is removed from FFlogs and for good reason.

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Originally Posted by DivineP

The thing is, it's suppost to be against the ToS.

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*look at the XIV twitter*
*They are giving props to the first kill of an ultimate fight*
*dps meter right in the screenshot of the kill*
It's the little things that make me laugh, lol.

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

*look at the XIV twitter*
*They are giving props to the first kill of an ultimate fight*
*dps meter right in the screenshot of the kill*
It's the little things that make me laugh, lol.

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Sure, because they don't care about parsing. They just don't.

It's just much easier to say "ALL 3rd Party programs are against ToS" so that they can toss that on as a reason to ban people who are assholes about it or use anything to cheat.

It's like Jaywalking. Who actually gets in trouble for jaywalking? It's just something to add on to a list of things that you do wrong if you're an idiot and run out in front of a car.

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Originally Posted by LeonKeyh

Sure, because they don't care about parsing. They just don't.

It's just much easier to say "ALL 3rd Party programs are against ToS" so that they can toss that on as a reason to ban people who are assholes about it or use anything to cheat.

It's like Jaywalking. Who actually gets in trouble for jaywalking? It's just something to add on to a list of things that you do wrong if you're an idiot and run out in front of a car.

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that sound less like upholding a law and more like using a law that is never enforced as leverage when someone does something the ones in power don't like, lol.

u know, my BiS WHM was booted from a P4S reclear because the cohealer looked me up and said i never healed part 2

they completely ignored full orange parses on my main job for a competency check

anyway, i just laughed it off, it was pretty funny XD

oh this week i was called a parsing healer on my sage in p4s because i was not GCD healing to save the party from the next raidwide, yeah that aoe shield + pepsis is gonna help us survive from 20% HP

People are the disease, not the tool. If someone is harassing you with parsing numbers then report them and move on while the reported player can enjoy the ban.

I think watching Amazon employees play video games is a worse disease. Ffxivanalysis has helped me improve immensely. I also play on ps and have the same access to logs that everyone else has.

On the ninja thing, if my leylines are down and mug isn’t up, the ninja is doing something very wrong and I’d probably say something.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Disease or no, SE only have themselves to blame for how things are now.

You have to go back to ARR to see how things started going down this road. Trying to figure out your own personal damage where it mattered in the 8 man content of the time was challenging at best and rapidly gravitated towards being nigh impossible as you went towards the more dot centric jobs.

Scrolling text was vague, various damage types were merged, analysing the chat log was even more useless with imprecise timings and dot damage being omitted entirely.

Picture being a SMN or SCH and trying to optimise things for coil back then. The game simply didn't give players the tools some wanted. Cue third parties coming along and doing it for them. Of course this wasn't hugely important back in Coil because the DPS checks really weren't that steep. Parsing was a thing, but it was niche because most jobs simply didn't need it.

And then Gordias happened. Right out of the blocks even the gatekeeper punchbag Faust was a huge step up over anything Coil had expected of us. And that's before we get to the DPS checks A3S required during prog. I was covering for Solitude's team during the world prog race and hand of pain was unlike any DPS check I've ever seen before or since. Everyone had to bring their A game and as a result, everyone had to either be parsing, or use parser data to get their DPS to where it needed to be to pass that check.

This trend continued abielt to a lesser extent in both Midas and even Creator. Whilst Midas was overall a much more mechanics centric tier, A6S was still a pretty stern challenge and it wasn't uncommon to see midcore and casual groups repeatedly running out of time here during prog. Even Creator which was by far the easiest Savage tier yet enforced a high bar for DPS by way of phase pushes and mechanic skips often being borderline required to clear the fight.

Wether you agree with parsing or not. Just remember who's to blame for setting the standard here.

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Thanks for the Vietnam flashback, A3S broke my static. I was pld and we didn't have the dps.

Hand of pain indeed.

Yes it is a disease I say because more people than not use the info to cry to the devs because their tank does 3% less damage than another tank even tho they have heals and more mitigation/ group utility and then the devs turn every job into something a 3 year old can play for "balance" or because its too hard to have to pick one out of two skills to weave in-between GCDs or because its not super easy to maintain uptime on something. You can tell you are getting better at the game without DPS meters or logs. I just want people to stop optimizing the fun out of the game.

Parsing itself isn't a disease. The disease is the amount of socially cancerous people that use the data obtained by them to be complete toxic piles of human trash. If it's not parse data it will be something else. These people are the primary reason why we aren't able to do a number of things in games, online, or IRL now.

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Originally Posted by Alistercain001

Yes it is a disease I say because more people than not use the info to cry to the devs because their tank does 3% less damage than another tank even tho they have heals and more mitigation/ group utility and then the devs turn every job into something a 3 year old can play for "balance" or because its too hard to have to pick one out of two skills to weave in-between GCDs or because its not super easy to maintain uptime on something. You can tell you are getting better at the game without DPS meters or logs. I just want people to stop optimizing the fun out of the game.

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Spoken like someone who doesnt even know anyone with a parser. "more people than not"? Really?

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Originally Posted by Velvet_Lunarfang

I saw a video and Asmogold talked about it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1fH...el=AsmongoldTV

So is it a disease? I mean if all that these people care about maybe it is?

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All tools can be evil depending on the user of the tool.
Hammers can build things, but it can also kill things.