6.11 PVE Changes are utterly tone deaf

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Originally Posted by Feayn

You'd better think and consider if I don't mean me, but other "Samurai Mains" who play on the controller ;)

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Speak for yourself. I play with a controller since ARR and I can play SAM just fine with kaiten.

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Originally Posted by Feayn

Sry i'm not agreed with what you mean. For a controller player is the removel from the Skill Hissatsu Kaiten very good and I dont want it back.

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As a ps4 player I disagree with your statement. For explanation why read the last 200 forum post about sam. in the last 3 weeks.

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Originally Posted by Feayn

Sry i'm not agreed with what you mean. For a controller player is the removel from the Skill Hissatsu Kaiten very good and I dont want it back.

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Sorry I disagree... as a " Mobile phone player " we shouldn't stop at Kaiten removal! I want a 1 Button Rotation herp derp

Hakaze/Shifu/Jinpu/Gekko/Kasha/Yukikaze/Midare all Combined on a " 1 singular button " so I require to press only 1 button cause my wittle fingies go ouchy ouchy from pressy pressy buttons.

But wait, thuurs mooree! I want to shop and work and heck even go Nr2 while playing my oh so difficult complicated game!. How do that? AUTO RUN FUCNTION throughout any raid and dungeon. Now ya thinking!

- Maximum optimization
- Button-Downtime
- No-Thinking-Uptime
- SkillCeiling 1ft high
- Toiletseat gameplay

Contain your body fluids, this sounds like the ultimate interactive excitement!! HQ gameplay, the correct direction of game design okey dokey. Woohoo!! and stuffies and things :|

>:| .............

I don’t understand the “controller player” arguments. You have instant access to 32 buttons. That’s probably more keybinds than most keyboard players. I don’t main Sam but I’ve dabbled; and the only abilities I have on cross bar 3 historically has been lb3 and meditation, both of which can be used by pressing a shoulder + face button and don’t require weaving? And if your raiding you don’t need aoe on your bars so that’s 5 or 6 abilities you can remove. There are so many controller tutorials and guides out there I’d suggest taking a look at.

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Originally Posted by Picker

I don’t understand the “controller player” arguments. You have instant access to 32 buttons. That’s probably more keybinds than most keyboard players. I don’t main Sam but I’ve dabbled; and the only abilities I have on cross bar 3 historically has been lb3 and meditation, both of which can be used by pressing a shoulder + face button and don’t require weaving? And if your raiding you don’t need aoe on your bars so that’s 5 or 6 abilities you can remove. There are so many controller tutorials and guides out there I’d suggest taking a look at.

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Just wanna say it's 48 for controllers.. 8 on each with R2, L2, double tap R2, Double tap L2, L2+R2 and R2+L2.

That still leaves you 16 slots x5 if you wanna start pressing R1 to cycle thru too but you really shouldn't need it as 48 is plenty

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Originally Posted by Picker

I don’t understand the “controller player” arguments. You have instant access to 32 buttons. That’s probably more keybinds than most keyboard players. I don’t main Sam but I’ve dabbled; and the only abilities I have on cross bar 3 historically has been lb3 and meditation, both of which can be used by pressing a shoulder + face button and don’t require weaving? And if your raiding you don’t need aoe on your bars so that’s 5 or 6 abilities you can remove. There are so many controller tutorials and guides out there I’d suggest taking a look at.

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Us pointing out that we play on controller is probably due to the fact that folks keep citing there 'might' be a button bloat problem which couldn't possibly be the case for people who play on keyboards due to how customizable those can be, whereas we only have 8 buttons at a time...

Except like you said, we have ready access to up to 3 whole bars with just a toggle of L2 and/or R2

We're just stating the obvious to those who think we're the reason for things getting dumbed down that we aren't.

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Originally Posted by Feayn

You'd better think and consider if I don't mean me, but other "Samurai Mains" who play on the controller ;)

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I am one such person.

Literally never been a problem to have Kaiten on my bar. Learn to use Cross Hotbars. The ones that show up when you press R2 -> L2 or L2 -> R2.

I have a theory that the devs pretend we don’t exist and only listens to Reddit or “yes sir” types.

Normally the best advice for a dev is to “Shut off the community” from time to time cuz pleasing everyone is impossible. But the games direction is absolutely ridiculous with some of these decisions from housing to PvP to whatever they thought they could accomplish by making jobs crappy alongside very crappy core content

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Originally Posted by Feayn

Sry i'm not agreed with what you mean. For a controller player is the removel from the Skill Hissatsu Kaiten very good and I dont want it back.

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I'll be honest controller excuse really doesn't work
I have no issue setting up a comfortable scheme for SAM since its been introduced Kaiten has not really been a bloat problem more so SAM really has aoe and single target for everything

AOE bloat more of a issue

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Originally Posted by Jirah

I have a theory that the devs pretend we don’t exist and only listens to Reddit or “yes sir” types.

Normally the best advice for a dev is to “Shut off the community” from time to time cuz pleasing everyone is impossible. But the games direction is absolutely ridiculous with some of these decisions from housing to PvP to whatever they thought they could accomplish by making jobs crappy alongside very crappy core content

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And twitter.
Reddit is offended when you critic a single thing about the game, Twitter will claim Flamethrower is fun.

The community holds the devs on too high of a pedestal.
Yes Yoshi-P saved the game from its catastrophic launch, yes he and his team are likable.
But doesn't mean they are above criticism or cannot make mistakes, they aren't gods.
You CAN disaggree with their vision, or point out issues in their game design. Heck, that's exactly what Yoshida claimed was important to listen to when he took over !
But now the community cannot stand anything that isn't elogious and it hurts the game as a result.
Of course, no need to insult the devs or be a jerk when sharing negative opinion or critics either. This doesn't help anything.
But yes, toxic positivity is a thing and it's hurting the game in the long run.

I will say that some of the SAM criticism I've been seeing is ridiculously toxic and completely unhelpful to the overall message the fans are trying to convey. Like calling the entire job design team incompetent and worse because they didn't revert a major job change in a minor patch. Yes it was a bad change in the major patch, but manage your expectations little, don't be a child. They never do more than numbers adjustments and bugfixes for jobs in a +0.01.

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

I will say that some of the SAM criticism I've been seeing is ridiculously toxic and completely unhelpful to the overall message the fans are trying to convey. Like calling the entire job design team incompetent and worse because they didn't revert a major job change in a minor patch. Yes it was a bad change in the major patch, but manage your expectations little, don't be a child. They never do more than numbers adjustments and bugfixes for jobs in a +0.01.

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I would assume the same, but I can't recall what patch it was when Hagakure was given back to really say. But I think the general consensus was supposed to be that they wanted feedback about the changes and now that it's been 2 weeks to give that feedback and it all being a resounding negative from each community, they would've changed it as the entire change to SAM to begin with was in fact potency adjustments and the removal of an ability that boosts potency.

I think that should be fairly easy to reverse no matter what patch they're on, but if the feedback they actually wanted was Ultimate, then them not addressing our feedback in any way makes a bit more sense. (Even though not everyone plays ultimate)

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

I will say that some of the SAM criticism I've been seeing is ridiculously toxic and completely unhelpful to the overall message the fans are trying to convey. Like calling the entire job design team incompetent and worse because they didn't revert a major job change in a minor patch. Yes it was a bad change in the major patch, but manage your expectations little, don't be a child. They never do more than numbers adjustments and bugfixes for jobs in a +0.01.

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I mean….look at their comments about healers, and doing nothing with them for the past 6 years. Is there a nice word for incompetence? That’s very much what they are at this point. Ignorant?

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Originally Posted by Feayn

Sry i'm not agreed with what you mean. For a controller player is the removel from the Skill Hissatsu Kaiten very good and I dont want it back.

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Controller player here, stop talking about things you don’t understand.

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Originally Posted by SargeTheSeagull

Controller player here, stop talking about things you don’t understand.

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I'm pretty sure he understands it. He just prefers it gone. Which si fine as it's his opinion.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

I'm pretty sure he understands it. He just prefers it gone. Which si fine as it's his opinion.

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Opinion or not, it can be judged. And it is an abhorent one at that.

Especially since overall it is a horrible change with huge consequences as a result. What's stopping SE from removing Reassemble from Machinist if Kaiten stays gone? If all those kinds of skills go away with nothing added, the list will just keep going on and on if nobody says anything. If they truly wanted to deal with button bloat, Ikishoten turn into Ogi Namikiri or something. Iaijutsu can become Tsubame-gaeshi instead of them being two different buttons. Heck, there are many jobs that could have an actual adjustment that way, yet they choose to remove Kaiten which was a great way to enhance finishers and also have some style to the job.

Defending this sort of thing will only lead to more stagnation. Lower the skill floor, not the ceiling.

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Originally Posted by MikoRemi

Opinion or not, it can be judged. And it is an abhorent one at that.

Especially since overall it is a horrible change with huge consequences as a result. What's stopping SE from removing Reassemble from Machinist if Kaiten stays gone? If all those kinds of skills go away with nothing added, the list will just keep going on and on if nobody says anything. If they truly wanted to deal with button bloat, Ikishoten turn into Ogi Namikiri or something. Iaijutsu can become Tsubame-gaeshi instead of them being two different buttons. Heck, there are many jobs that could have an actual adjustment that way, yet they choose to remove Kaiten which was a great way to enhance finishers and also have some style to the job.

Defending this sort of thing will only lead to more stagnation. Lower the skill floor, not the ceiling.

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Funny you say that when all the angry people here are up in arms for having their own opinions judged negatively. Guess it only goes one way here.

And once again note- I want Kaiten back. But the obvious way the forums disregard others opinions while getting upset when their own opinions are attacked is a bit hypocritical. Aka, typical human behavior.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

Funny you say that when all the angry people here are up in arms for having their own opinions judged negatively. Guess it only goes one way here.

And once again note- I want Kaiten back. But the obvious way the forums disregard others opinions while getting upset when their own opinions are attacked is a bit hypocritical. Aka, typical human behavior.

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Generally because many of the counterarguments again, lead to stagnation or just prove to show only contempt from either an ignorant point of view or just one that has had too much Kool Aid.

Most of the times I've seen people get their opinions attacked and then get upset tend to be the ones who provoke the crowd by calling them "petty" for being mad over "one button" among other things, which is already provocative in of itself but also extremely dismissive to the actual conversations. A disagreement generally isn't really hated on if it at least makes sense and also doesn't try to talk down to others. Once people try those things though, they're opening themselves to their own medicine.

I want Kaiten too and I'm being polite about it, but I can understand the maddening frustration from all sorts of classes. Hell, I play Machinist which has been in quite a state since Stormblood with the only difference being the kind of state it has been in, and plenty more classes are looking for some kind of good changes around here. Having to wait so long for basic things is quite painful and so I can at least have empathy for that. Generally it's good to start with pleasantries, however when pleasantries aren't listened to then things just get uglier by default. Call it human but it's either that or simply follow the definition of insanity.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

I'm pretty sure he understands it. He just prefers it gone. Which si fine as it's his opinion.

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Pretty sure he doesn't understand as weather it is his opinion or not, as he effectively stated that he was talking for other controller using players...

I mean sure, fine if he was just saying, 'i like it better this way' a response of 'what, really?! why?!' would be understandable, but he didn't and he claimed to speak for others...

That's no longer sharing a personal opinion and also the primary reason you found people responding to him the way they did.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

But the obvious way the forums disregard others opinions while getting upset when their own opinions are attacked is a bit hypocritical. Aka, typical human behavior.

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Ironic you bring this up, because that has been your very behavior in other threads. Its strange that you recognize this all over the forums, but never in your own posts that directly represent this sort of thing.

And on the flip side, you feel its your prerogative to blindly defending a guy who apparently you have no idea of the context of what he was originally saying, from people that at most were telling him that 'he doesn't get to speak for them'.

(Not to mention, looking past the fact he took that outrageous position, it ignores the countless discussions that effectively would give Feayn the exact same result of what he is claiming to like, without removing Kaiten).


Its becoming pretty clear that your time spent on the forums is for the soul purpose of being a contrarian, regardless the situation. Either that or you tend to skip most the content of forums threads to simply start white knighting for anyone you feel is 'being attacked' thoughtlessly without any context. I don't see why you would derive enjoyment (or at the very least, go out of your way) to practice this illogical and irrational behavior...

We all really should stop responding to the troll.

Let him sit comfortably on his high horse. No argument will convince him it's made of sticks and straw.

@YukiB
I suppose you are right...

I admit to having a personal failing in when I hear something so backwards and hypocritical, directly contradicting the poster themself with their own words from a previous post...

I find myself having a sick drive to rationalize their statements out with them and see if by having them backtrack and think through their own words, slowly one more time just to see if they can catch their own contradictions... It certainly is a personal detriment in the fact that I effectively give them the attention they are desperately seeking...

I mean I had this same guy insulting others for suggesting they are going to take a break from the game or unsub for a while as being way over reactionary and some how a insult to SE... To only turn around a few posts later and suggest that the OP really should just take a break from the game...

At the very least it was comical... But still at this point I don't even know if he recognized how he was bumping into himself...


But you are right. Think the majority of people see this guy for who he is.

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Originally Posted by FrogBiscuit

@YukiB
I suppose you are right...

I admit to having a personal failing in when I hear something so backwards and hypocritical, directly contradicting the poster themself with their own words from a previous post...

I find myself having a sick drive to rationalize their statements out with them and see if by having them backtrack and think through their own words, slowly one more time just to see if they can catch their own contradictions... It certainly is a personal detriment in the fact that I effectively give them the attention they are desperately seeking...

I mean I had this same guy insulting others for suggesting they are going to take a break from the game or unsub for a while as being way over reactionary and some how a insult to SE... To only turn around a few posts later and suggest that the OP really should just take a break from the game...

At the very least it was comical... But still at this point I don't even know if he recognized how he was bumping into himself...


But you are right. Think the majority of people see this guy for who he is.

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I wouldn't call it a personal failing so much as actually calling out something for what it is. If we all just didn't say anything, people would think they're right when they say some rather questionable things. It's the same thing as all the posts up in arms over the changes currently, we have to let our voices be heard but also can't let any silliness get in the way of fixing things.

Unlike most MMO's that likely wouldn't care at this point, FF14 is a pretty special game, that's why it's all the more important to try to course correct away from making things overly simple for the sake of it, but try to actually fix the game meaningfully. The only other alternative is a bad one, so might as well see what happens with actually trying, and bad takes are only going to cause more issues.

That being said, @YukiB's route isn't a bad one either for at least this particular case, but for every new thread I see certain faces appear now and again that need a daily reminder of bad takes equals a bad time.

Thats very true.

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Originally Posted by Feayn

Sry i'm not agreed with what you mean. For a controller player is the removel from the Skill Hissatsu Kaiten very good and I dont want it back.

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If Kaiten is a problem for you on controller then I rly wonder how you play other Jobs with it.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

If Kaiten is a problem for you on controller then I rly wonder how you play other Jobs with it.

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He could've just.. y'know not pressed it lol. The content these people do don't require you to play optimally. Don't like something? Don't press it.

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Originally Posted by butchersblock

He could've just.. y'know not pressed it lol. The content these people do don't require you to play optimally. Don't like something? Don't press it.

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To the detriment of others...at least with Flamethrower on Machinist, it's 98% on the same level as Astrologian's Undraw where it straight up is bad to press entirely. Kaiten though was a great benefit to finishers...someone could not like Reassemble and not press it but that's just pain.

Just because the easy content is well, easy, doesn't really mean you shouldn't try to hit your buttons. All the difficulty really means is you can afford to make basic mistakes while trying to learn and keep yourself as busy as you can in order to become a better player.

If you don't like to press buttons though then I mean...we got Trust NPC's who won't say anything on the matter for most of the time. Barring that, there's probably a job that fits better for that person.

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Originally Posted by MikoRemi

To the detriment of others...at least with Flamethrower on Machinist, it's 98% on the same level as Astrologian's Undraw where it straight up is bad to press entirely. Kaiten though was a great benefit to finishers...someone could not like Reassemble and not press it but that's just pain.

Just because the easy content is well, easy, doesn't really mean you shouldn't try to hit your buttons. All the difficulty really means is you can afford to make basic mistakes while trying to learn and keep yourself as busy as you can in order to become a better player.

If you don't like to press buttons though then I mean...we got Trust NPC's who won't say anything on the matter for most of the time. Barring that, there's probably a job that fits better for that person.

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Yeah, but a lot of players just completely ignore their rotations regardless. These things don't affect them in the slightest. I agree that they should of course look to understand at least the very basics of their job but they just don't and we can't do much to force them to

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Originally Posted by butchersblock

Yeah, but a lot of players just completely ignore their rotations regardless. These things don't affect them in the slightest. I agree that they should of course look to understand at least the very basics of their job but they just don't and we can't do much to force them to

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And they absolutely shouldn’t be. The only reason they get to ignore their rotations is because they aren’t being held accountable for it. Good for them if these changes don’t affect them but they affect more people in a negative way and this style of play where people lazy on through and let others carry them will only further poison the game.

Right now that particular failing is on the community partly for wanting to be nice and not pile on a person for being a detriment, but also even SE for continuing to make things simpler and easier to appeal to people who don’t care and will continue to play badly for the sake of it. This is essentially a team game, and if these people want to be lazy in their rotations, play with the NPC’s and leave the rest of us be. It’s particularly frustrating.

It's so stupid, you have to CAST your finishers and even when they CRT/DH they dont even come close to a normal crit from a lot of the other classes instant skills.
SAM is a pure dmg class and the busiest by far, with the buffs other classes got in 6.1 SAM doesnt look as good.

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Originally Posted by Vinclum

It's so stupid, you have to CAST your finishers and even when they CRT/DH they dont even come close to a normal crit from a lot of the other classes instant skills.
SAM is a pure dmg class and the busiest by far, with the buffs other classes got in 6.1 SAM doesnt look as good.

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Indeed. It really makes me wonder why they didn't wait to implement a change like this when whatever they have planned was ready to be brought forth fully. I've been reluctant to do pve content because my best geared job at 90 is currently SAM and it just isn't fun and feels mediocre.

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Originally Posted by xAFROx

Indeed. It really makes me wonder why they didn't wait to implement a change like this when whatever they have planned was ready to be brought forth fully. I've been reluctant to do pve content because my best geared job at 90 is currently SAM and it just isn't fun and feels mediocre.

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I think that's the question that's been on a lot of people's minds.

i dont like the mirage dive change for dragoons they should have left it like it was before

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Originally Posted by Feayn

Sry i'm not agreed with what you mean. For a controller player is the removel from the Skill Hissatsu Kaiten very good and I dont want it back.

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This is the problem (Not the poster themselves) - playing with controllers. Many people ignore the fact that play on a small controller must be as easy as on a big keyboard and mouse. EVERY game that tries to be PC and controller always has this problem - PC play becomes crap to support better controller usage.

Smn still hasn't gotten love :/

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Originally Posted by deadman1204

This is the problem (Not the poster themselves) - playing with controllers. Many people ignore the fact that play on a small controller must be as easy as on a big keyboard and mouse. EVERY game that tries to be PC and controller always has this problem - PC play becomes crap to support better controller usage.

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The first 5 pages of the thread are full of posts from controller players explaining how Kaiten (and button bloat) is not an issue for controllers.

Unfortunately it seems you didn't make it past the 2nd post.

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Originally Posted by deadman1204

This is the problem (Not the poster themselves) - playing with controllers. Many people ignore the fact that play on a small controller must be as easy as on a big keyboard and mouse. EVERY game that tries to be PC and controller always has this problem - PC play becomes crap to support better controller usage.

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But literally every controller player here has said there is no problem.

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Originally Posted by Feayn

Sry i'm not agreed with what you mean. For a controller player is the removel from the Skill Hissatsu Kaiten very good and I dont want it back.

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I'm a bit confused, SAM still feels good to play. I'm on PC and use a controller. The removal of Kaiten only added more Shintens so the amount of APM hasn't really decreased.

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Originally Posted by elioaiko

I'm a bit confused, SAM still feels good to play. I'm on PC and use a controller. The removal of Kaiten only added more Shintens so the amount of APM hasn't really decreased.

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While certainly a valid perspective to have, many people don't like the change/simplification in rotation, animation, and just decision making while playing the class.

Shinten is not at all a 1 for 1 exchange with kaiten.
1. Most clearly felt was the move from what many of us considered the theme of the class. Building up to big finishers, and then making them big with Kaiten. Not only has that build up been robbed from the class (potency changes also playing a part) but the conscious act of powering up your move before hand is no longer there. I fully understand there may be some SAM players that didn't even take notice of this and don't care... But understand many that play the class did and that specific play style that we enjoy of elegant glass cannon was removed from the game. (the changes to Tenka Goken also were a negative in that very same venue. They entirely removed the satisfaction of knowing your class and executing your moves well for, 'stand in middle and mash buttons').

2. Kaiten was the single component making kenki management even a thing. Personally, I rather a selection of kenki based moves I have to make strategic decisions about... rather then 'mash shinten when button lights up'. We don't even technically need the kenki gauge anymore. Its pointless in this current patch.

3. As mentioned above, its not a 1 for 1 tradeoff, either in game play feel or even visually. The kaiten animation was satisfying, fluid, chained right into our finishers, and not only gave a nice visual leading into the culmination of our buildup, but then it was most often rewarded after with a massive number. The clunky look and feel of shinten not only fails at providing any assistance to build up, but it visually looks out of place and is a more obscure move to most other SAM moves. (Not suggesting a sword class having a lunge is strange, but simply that the animation doesn't fit with the rest of the move set and this is no satisfaction behind mashing the button simply when ever its available).