Machinist needs an overhaul with the pvp job style for pve.

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Originally Posted by WiccaP

Honestly! Like I know the Devs hate "pet" classes, but having the old rook and bishop again could potentially help with the dmg issue without just directly buffing the skills we have while giving some much needed flavor and identity. While we're at it, it would give the Devs something to develop more with machinist since they've claimed the current iteration is "complete". IF they wanted to add utility back in, a 3rd turret that throws up a small shield, or change flamethrower into a turret that does a 360 aoe. How about making the queen not feel like a bigger turret and change it to something more. Also like why do Sch get to have a fairy that auto-heal, but Smn and Mch cant have a pet that does an Auto-attack anymore?

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All good questions. My guess in regards to it being "complete" is that the rotational loop and stuff is simple, loops well and makes a lot of sense. It feels very fluid compared to other classes without being too busy. It is busy, but it's busy because of the constant oGCD weaving. However, this apparent closed loop could very easily just be built upon, either giving us another use for our gauge(s) (with appropriate balancing so it's not just a straight up dps loss to do so) or just giving us a button to press as a stand-alone utility, much like Radiant Aegis on SMN. The latter is probably simpler, but it'd make sense to use battery in some way in the case of Bishop. That said, we come back to the fight design issue where it's just not really necessary and so I doubt it'll ever come to fruition.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Wrong.

MCH rotation worked wonderfully with the cast.

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Unfortunately making the text of your subjective opinion bold doesn't turn it into a fact.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Wrong.

MCH rotation worked wonderfully with the cast.
It was BRD whose rotation was awful.

But now with all the QoLs and removal of many oGCDs, they could bring back the casts.

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Considering the casters are slowly loosing their cast times, I just don’t see this comming back

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Originally Posted by Caitlyn

Please no.

PvP MCH is clunky and the worst I ve ever played. Moving during casting ist nice, but not when you re slowed. And you cant interrupt your charged attack, so you have to think twice before doing your standard attacks.

And dont get me started talking about the drill/blaster/anchor/chainsaw rotation...

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You can in fact cancel your cast people need to stop parroting this point when it comes to flaws in bringing PVP mch over to PVE. Pressing the jump button doubles as a cast cancel button whilst you're in a cast bar.

Personally i love the PVP mch feel, my main complaint with MCH since SB has been its stopped feeling like a gunner class and became some weird technomage acrobat. Burst Charge is so much cooler than the 1-2-3 and still has a weave window, as at least a start they could have that then have another ability cost a small amount of heat acting like a "ruin 2" (hotshot maybe?) for if you need the movement/double weave. Having these cast times be just a thing for MCH can help balance out the fact its the selfish ranged and gives it a bit more identity.

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Originally Posted by CidHeiral

Unfortunately making the text of your subjective opinion bold doesn't turn it into a fact.

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Gonna have to disagree with you here, MCH's rotation actually did work very well with the cast times as it was designed around them, you could basically keep 2 gcds of movement+ free at any time if you knew what you were doing, and if you somehow needed more than that you could drop barrel or use feint for a minimal dps loss. Basically it was kinda like how SMN used to be where despite being a "caster" with a little bit of thought you could move whenever you wanted to.

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Originally Posted by CidHeiral

Unfortunately making the text of your subjective opinion bold doesn't turn it into a fact.

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It doesn't make anything wrong either.
On top of that, it's not an opinion, it's a fact.

HW MCH was designed with casts in mind. BRD wasn't, which is why casts were removed.
If you disagree, I invite you to look back at the HW kit. I don't have many videos of it, HW MCH had some flaws and a few stupid elements like cumulating 3 buffs, but it remained a very good job to play with a lot of room for ingenuity.
It felt impactful and rewarding.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

It doesn't make anything wrong either.
On top of that, it's not an opinion, it's a fact.

HW MCH was designed with casts in mind. BRD wasn't, which is why casts were removed.
If you disagree, I invite you to look back at the HW kit. I don't have many videos of it, HW MCH had some flaws and a few stupid elements like cumulating 3 buffs, but it remained a very good job to play with a lot of room for ingenuity.
It felt impactful and rewarding.

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I never got to level cap in HW with MCH, from videos it just looks like a bunch of hard casts and like 4 identical buffs (Blood for blood, Hawkeye, Raging strikes ect) and a ton of fodder skills (Heartbreak, Blank, Suppressing fire, Lead Shot, Gauss round, Ricochet) unless I’m missing somthing vital (Probably ammo) it looks very primitive

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

Gonna have to disagree with you here, MCH's rotation actually did work very well with the cast times

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

it remained a very good job to play with a lot of room for ingenuity.
It felt impactful and rewarding.

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Again, these are subjective statements.

An objective statement would be, "the machinist job used to have cast times." The statement is based in irrefutable, verifiable fact.

A subjective statement would be, "the Machinist cast times were fun, they felt impactful and rewarding." The statement is based on your own personal opinion, feelings, and biases. Other people may feel the opposite.

So I can have the subjective opinion that MCH cast times are neat, which I do as stated previously, but also understand the objective truth that most players did not agree with that opinion at the time it was last a part of the job, resulting in cast times being removed. From that information I can infer that such a design is unlikely to return to the job in PvE, but unlikely is not an absolute, so if the new PvP design proves popular, who knows?

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Originally Posted by CidHeiral

Again, these are subjective statements.

An objective statement would be, "the machinist job used to have cast times." The statement is based in irrefutable, verifiable fact.

A subjective statement would be, "the Machinist cast times were fun, they felt impactful and rewarding." The statement is based on your own personal opinion, feelings, and biases. Other people may feel the opposite.

So I can have the subjective opinion that MCH cast times are neat, which I do as stated previously, but also understand the objective truth that most players did not agree with that opinion at the time it was last a part of the job, resulting in cast times being removed. From that information I can infer that such a design is unlikely to return to the job in PvE, but unlikely is not an absolute, so if the new PvP design proves popular, who knows?

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The objective statement we made was MCH was designed around casts times and worked well, whereas bard wasn't. Worked well is objective, provable even, whether it was fun or not isn't and was not what we were saying. It must be very easy to win an argument with an oppenent made of straw.

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Originally Posted by Jirah

I never got to level cap in HW with MCH, from videos it just looks like a bunch of hard casts and like 4 identical buffs (Blood for blood, Hawkeye, Raging strikes ect) and a ton of fodder skills (Heartbreak, Blank, Suppressing fire, Lead Shot, Gauss round, Ricochet) unless I’m missing somthing vital (Probably ammo) it looks very primitive

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HW design did lack a lot of cohesion on all jobs, but mch wasn't a lot of hard casts. Your combo starter was hard cast, as well as your dot and upkeep buff. Your second and third hits of your combo however were instant cast, and ammo made their proc chance 100% (it worked kinda like dancer with 50% to get combo steps), your burst as well was under rapid fire as a buff, which made everything instant cast 1.5s gcd. You basically then had a proc minigame at play, because you didn't need to use your combo in order if you had procs, so you could hold procs for movement/ buff windows to maximise damage/movement. For example you could go 1->2(instant)->1->3(instant)->2(instant)->3(instant), using ammo to give you the procs. The fact you had raging, hawkeye etc was quite annoying, but it did payoff in the end, as MCH at the time basically had a 3 min long rotation with your 3min wildfire being the highest burst in the game, but they could have easily been consolidated because they did have a fair amount of fluff (as did a lot of jobs).

A neat idea to incorporate the Sniper into MCH kit that it would be the 2 minute Heat spender

it transforms your main combo into 3 big hits
first ones just a meaty GCD,second part is a multi hit attack to make wildfire do max damage and final hit be a massive charge shot.

I know this post has come before my posting of the Machinist rework, but I do find it good that I'm not the only one that took inspiration from PVP in some parts in order to rework the job. I will admit I have a bit of bias for my own piece of course as a disclaimer, but having many effects like these would be either niche or change up the job in some odd ways. AA having stun at all could be a bit messy since tying any skills to effects like that can cause issues, hence why they removed the potency from things like Low Blow for example so people didn't blow through stuns and screw themselves over for damage, and Drill being a bleed would be ok but doesn't add all that much more to it than it does already, especially if it bleeds which would be weaker overall.

Gauss Barrel was liked by some for the animation but hated for others, I wouldn't mind if it came back more as a personal glamour button of sorts that could be applied to all Machinist weapons as long as it was a toggle option. Wildfire being a guaranteed DH Crit could be fine, but just making it do super high potency with each weaponskill and capping out after a couple of hits would make it more consistent overall. The Automaton Queen AI is mostly fine, it attacks what it can, the only real gripe is there is no AOE equivalent.

Having two turrets and the Blast Charge style would of course be good changes, as Blast Charge would be key in establishing Machinist identity. I don't expect everyone to agree with it since most people are used to how Machinist movement is now, but it would be the proper change in order to add bigger damage and a more interesting kit to it. Keep up the love for Machinist though, we need it.

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Originally Posted by MikoRemi

The Automaton Queen AI is mostly fine, it attacks what it can, the only real gripe is there is no AOE equivalent.

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Queen AI is not fine when there are targets that are immune to damage. 100 battery Queen is worth ~2400 potency, and if it just randomly does 0 damage because it went to hit the wrong target, it's horrible.

I actually liked this idea for ranged physical dps. Utilize the "walkable cast" on their attacks, and remove the "mobility tax" from their dps finally.

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Originally Posted by waterboytkd

I actually liked this idea for ranged physical dps. Utilize the "walkable cast" on their attacks, and remove the "mobility tax" from their dps finally.

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I actually like this as well. Gunslinger and Summoner in Lost Ark both have this type of mechanic and it seems to work well.

Ditto, seems to be a decent way of giving MCH its own identity and also an easy way to justify making its DPS on par with SMN at the very least (which, let's be honest, is just as mobile as MCH is right now....)

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

Queen AI is not fine when there are targets that are immune to damage. 100 battery Queen is worth ~2400 potency, and if it just randomly does 0 damage because it went to hit the wrong target, it's horrible.

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Typically when I’ve used Queen, it goes to whatever I’m targeting so if one target is immune over others then I just switch over, maybe I just haven’t noticed much over time though. I suppose if it remained on target though, I would just be more wary of timing it personally so I don’t waste meter on an immune enemy.

PvP MCH is probably my favorite job right now. That Blast Charge man... *Chef kiss* I can feel every hit.

1 thing i started to notice with ff14 job design is that our job gauge are empty. We only use them for 1 thing making me wonder what if people were imagining that yoshi said was "i wanted make a game with resource management". Anyway.

I too like blast charge and power shot. They have alot of oomph in their animation and work with the slow walk cast. But when it comes to bringing back the mini turret, that some of you are talking about.

They could make one for single target and aoe. And both could cost battery gauge. Being able to have 2 turret on the field for like 20 or 30 sec and you can have 2 singles or 1 single and aoe on the field. And if you need to make sure they target who you want (if you werent targeting them yourself already) to then use sic command. It should just simplely work for both turret and queen and be mention in the tooltip.
Also because the turret would cast battery and would act like a dot. Queen would cost less battery to make up for it and maybe increase the battery genarator.

Tl;dr
1 aoe turret 1 single
Can have 2 on the field for 20/30sec. Can be 2 singles or 1 aoe 1 single
Cost 10 battery. Queen cost less because of it.
When summoned targets who you targeted, if needed use sic to change target. All turret including queen rush to target if not targeted already.
Blast charge good.

Now to think on how to make heat gauge more interesting.

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Originally Posted by Ralt21

They could make one for single target and aoe. And both could cost battery gauge. Being able to have 2 turret on the field for like 20 or 30 sec and you can have 2 singles or 1 single and aoe on the field. And if you need to make sure they target who you want (if you werent targeting them yourself already) to then use sic command. It should just simplely work for both turret and queen and be mention in the tooltip.

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Honestly I'd give anything to have em back, I'd even love it if we could summon 1 turret like the old days and all it does is our auto attacks, whilst we walk cast, this would also reward us like the old days where detonating our turret manually meant something as it was great before downtime and you were rewarded for doing so.

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Originally Posted by MikoRemi

Typically when I’ve used Queen, it goes to whatever I’m targeting so if one target is immune over others then I just switch over, maybe I just haven’t noticed much over time though. I suppose if it remained on target though, I would just be more wary of timing it personally so I don’t waste meter on an immune enemy.

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TEA as an example:
Pepsi man phase, you need to maintain both the Pepsi man and Pepsi hand within 5% difference.
Since you have aoes in your kit, the AQ can sometimes target the other one. That's easy enough to create a discrepency.

Phase 3.
At a point you will have 3 targets, BJ, CC and Alexander. Alexander will be immune until BJ and CC are killed.
Sometimes, for no logical explanation, the AQ will target Alexander regardless of which you target, damage or which you have the most aggro.
Maybe because I used second wind or tactician. But in any cases, this is a DPS check phase.

Using Extreme trial #2:
You have an add phase. This phase is quite long, a full minute, you're obligated to summon the Queen. And it gets funky very quickly.
Scenario 1: AQ kills an add and then target an invulnerable add. Even if you start to damage another add before the first is finished, its targeting will be random.
Scenario 2: AQ kills an add with Pile Bunker. It shutdown before using Crown collider, it doesn't seek another target for it. That's 700 potency.
Scenario 3: AQ chokes and straight up target an invulnerable add.
Scenario 4: AQ chokes and takes a long time before targeting another add, wasting 1-2 arm punch.

I cleared EX #2 7 times as a MCH and witnessed all those 4 scenarios.

Those are relevant content as of today.
It should not happen.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

TEA as an example:
Pepsi man phase, you need to maintain both the Pepsi man and Pepsi hand within 5% difference.
Since you have aoes in your kit, the AQ can sometimes target the other one. That's easy enough to create a discrepency.

Phase 3.
At a point you will have 3 targets, BJ, CC and Alexander. Alexander will be immune until BJ and CC are killed.
Sometimes, for no logical explanation, the AQ will target Alexander regardless of which you target, damage or which you have the most aggro.
Maybe because I used second wind or tactician. But in any cases, this is a DPS check phase.

Using Extreme trial #2:
You have an add phase. This phase is quite long, a full minute, you're obligated to summon the Queen. And it gets funky very quickly.
Scenario 1: AQ kills an add and then target an invulnerable add. Even if you start to damage another add before the first is finished, its targeting will be random.
Scenario 2: AQ kills an add with Pile Bunker. It shutdown before using Crown collider, it doesn't seek another target for it. That's 700 potency.
Scenario 3: AQ chokes and straight up target an invulnerable add.
Scenario 4: AQ chokes and takes a long time before targeting another add, wasting 1-2 arm punch.

I cleared EX #2 7 times as a MCH and witnessed all those 4 scenarios.

Those are relevant content as of today.
It should not happen.

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Huh, that actually is terrible if Queen AI runs rampant like that. I don’t see why they can’t just make it so the Autoturret/Automaton only attack whatever you are currently attacking, and if you swap targets then they should change targets. That’a actually ridiculous and shouldn’t even be that difficult of a change to implement.

Big agree, those situations should never happen.

I don't understand why they don't just make queen a skill rather than a pet, they literally deleted summoner because pets suck in ff.

It needs AI tweaks so it targets whatever we target. That's all it needs. Queen might be a glorified DoT/buff fodder but it's part of job identity. Removing it doesn't make sense, but pet AI doesn't ever get addressed either so that'd need to change for its current iteration to be more consistent. Thankfully not many multi-target scenarios exist, but when they do it's always an issue.

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Originally Posted by Serenaya

It needs AI tweaks so it targets whatever we target. That's all it needs. Queen might be a glorified DoT/buff fodder but it's part of job identity. Removing it doesn't make sense, but pet AI doesn't ever get addressed either so that'd need to change for its current iteration to be more consistent. Thankfully not many multi-target scenarios exist, but when they do it's always an issue.

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Personally I don't think queen is that essential to MCHs identity. The turret used to be a core part when it was the source of your raid utility, but nowadays its just thoughtless, and if they are going to have something thoughtless, it might as well be something like an orbital laser blast that scales off your battery.

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

Personally I don't think queen is that essential to MCHs identity. The turret used to be a core part when it was the source of your raid utility, but nowadays its just thoughtless, and if they are going to have something thoughtless, it might as well be something like an orbital laser blast that scales off your battery.

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The thing is the Queen currently is the upgrade of the turret which is not only nicer for movement but essentially like how Summoner for example goes from the Carbuncle to the Mini Primals to actual Primals. Seeing the upgrades are pretty good so as much as the turret is the identity for your case, it is really just an evolution when upgraded and can give more future ideas. Who knows what they could upgrade into next if allowed another level.

However I will say that press the button and forget it is rather simple but I wouldn’t mind so much if the job had a little more complexity to it, something I’ve done work on putting out here.

pvp rotation in pve is a bad idea stop suggesting it. do not listen to this yoshi-p.

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Originally Posted by seolhyun

pvp rotation in pve is a bad idea stop suggesting it. do not listen to this yoshi-p.

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Change can be scary given the track record currently, but proper implementation would make it much less worrisome. My document already details that, and OP’s post somewhat.

Everyone is used to the super simple braindead rotation, and that’s what is leading MCH into stagnation on top of just underperforming. Something has to change and considering how dangerous MCH is in PVP not to mention rather fun(opinions may vary but that’s what multiple jobs are for), it is a path to consider rather than just shoot down with zero input. Doing that plan will just keep things stale.

In EX2 I always cringed when the Queen decided to dash to a crystal on the side instead of the one I was targeting.
I wish the Queen (and Rook too) were just always hanging around like old SMN summons to be honest. They could contribute weak damage passively, and then only "pop off" when you spend battery to properly activate them. That way, it is not left to that short activation window what they ought to target.

Or just give up and make them into spells like what SMN did...

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Originally Posted by MikoRemi

Change can be scary given the track record currently, but proper implementation would make it much less worrisome. My document already details that, and OP’s post somewhat.

Everyone is used to the super simple braindead rotation, and that’s what is leading MCH into stagnation on top of just underperforming. Something has to change and considering how dangerous MCH is in PVP not to mention rather fun(opinions may vary but that’s what multiple jobs are for), it is a path to consider rather than just shoot down with zero input. Doing that plan will just keep things stale.

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"123 is braindead but not 11111 slow rp walking"

no ty i like flipping around with my gun. if you wanna fix mch representation then give it a raid buff again and utility to compete with other phys ranged and fix the problems with latency and it will be played more. only good thing in pvp is the sniper rifle. no need to suggest drastic changes to ruin it like SMN for people like it as it is. i have never posted on here but after the latest patch i feel the need to speak out.

Giving MCH a raid buff won't fix it. It shouldn't need one to compete with DNC and BRD.

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Originally Posted by VentVanitas

Giving MCH a raid buff won't fix it. It shouldn't need one to compete with DNC and BRD.

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If they aren't willing to give it a significant potency boost...then that is exactly what it needs. Like it or not it does compete with BRD and DNC for a spot outside of DF.

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Originally Posted by seolhyun

"123 is braindead but not 11111 slow rp walking"

no ty i like flipping around with my gun. if you wanna fix mch representation then give it a raid buff again and utility to compete with other phys ranged and fix the problems with latency and it will be played more. only good thing in pvp is the sniper rifle. no need to suggest drastic changes to ruin it like SMN for people like it as it is. i have never posted on here but after the latest patch i feel the need to speak out.

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If you actually read from my thread you’d know why I say Blast Charge can work when converting it as the risky filler with Heat being used more for bursts of movement, much like Black Mage. Everyone I ever talk to about MCH dps always says mobility is what keeps it low, so making the basic skill into a walk(not even a full on cast mind you) is a decision to fix that. Secondly I also had Dismantle return as well as every ranged getting Palisade back. I even put in Marksman’s Spite as the level 90 skill to reward Battery charges.

With my document, following it to the letter wouldn’t ruin it, it would keep some of its simplicity as a Physical Ranged but it would benefit from not spamming 1 like a monkey, but keeping every other GCD rolling and keeping enough heat to move when necessary.

I know you already commented on my post but really, actually read what I proposed. Otherwise it just looks silly when you’re already bringing in some points I have already made.

1 2 3 is in the most braindead iteration since the combos being extended from 15 to 30 seconds.
There's actually no thinking required, it's the same as 1 1 1 except you just press 3 different keys instead of 1.

I do agree, filler rotation being only 1 1 1 wouldn't be fun, we already have BRD for that.
However 1 2 3 is not engaging at all either.

So i was thinking about how id rework mch involving the new pvp actions, what are you thoughts:

1-2-3 combo replaced by blastcharge-scattergun-marksmans spite (sniper), but they are not a direct 1-2-3 combo.

Using blast charge 3 times gives you a stack of "scattergun" (max 5 stacks). Using scattergun 3 times gives you a stack of marksmans spite (1 stack).

The idea behind this is to bump up mchs dps by giving them "movement restrictions" that they can play around. Blast charge has its slow walk cast times, scattergun is limited to close range (maybe 15y?) And marksmans spite is a full cast bar. So you can stack scatterguns and hypercharge and tools for movement, raising the skill ceiling.

Speaking of hypercharge, i would unload the old 1-2-3 to be a combo in hyper charge, so instead of being 5 heat blasts it would be heat blast - split shot - slug shot - clean shot - heat blast or something.

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Originally Posted by MikoRemi

If you actually read from my thread you’d know why I say Blast Charge can work when converting it as the risky filler with Heat being used more for bursts of movement, much like Black Mage. Everyone I ever talk to about MCH dps always says mobility is what keeps it low, so making the basic skill into a walk(not even a full on cast mind you) is a decision to fix that. Secondly I also had Dismantle return as well as every ranged getting Palisade back. I even put in Marksman’s Spite as the level 90 skill to reward Battery charges.

With my document, following it to the letter wouldn’t ruin it, it would keep some of its simplicity as a Physical Ranged but it would benefit from not spamming 1 like a monkey, but keeping every other GCD rolling and keeping enough heat to move when necessary.

I know you already commented on my post but really, actually read what I proposed. Otherwise it just looks silly when you’re already bringing in some points I have already made.

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if you actually read my post i say i don't want blast charge in pve. i don't want to read a 20 page google doc about it. if you want risky filler and tools for movement that already exists it's a black mage. the appeal of MCH is being fun and fast paced. i don't want to go back to casting everything or walking slowly or having boring animations sorry

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Originally Posted by seolhyun

if you actually read my post i say i don't want blast charge in pve. i don't want to read a 20 page google doc about it. if you want risky filler and tools for movement that already exists it's a black mage. the appeal of MCH is being fun and fast paced. i don't want to go back to casting everything or walking slowly or having boring animations sorry

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Well that’s really on you then. I already saw that and said how it could indeed work without just saying it for no reason. And I have played Black Mage, but I can tell you Machinist can go more that direction since after all it was meant to be a selfish DPS. Yet like I’ve said before, if the mobility is what is keeping the damage low then so be it. It’ll still be fast since with one button you’d build up more heat since I doubt they would keep it at just 5 Heat per shot(who knows though), and still more free with bursting and keeping the big 3 up while using some Marksman’s in the middle. Heck with the new Grenado Shot and Flamethrower adjustment alone that would help take up the buttons a bit, the casting though is just riskier filler and easier balancing across content since right now Heated Clean shot being 64 is an actual problem.

At the end of the day that’s your opinion and all, but where MCH is now is not good at all. Sure, if they just gave it a bunch of potency and adjusted all the levels and gave actual skills back, that’d be great but given their design choices, it’s doubtful without the rework.

My only question is...

Will the new 10 extra potency come in 6.1.5 or 6.2?

I want see more about the Automaton Queen, i want to feel like the robot is a part of my character, not just a animation that spin around punching the enemies and leave the battle later.

Imagine when we summoned the Queen, our 1 2 3 combo, Drill and some other actions, transforms into new actions that we command Queen to do. I ever thinking about a ''ranged Enshroud'' when we enter inside the queen and gain new actions, like reaper but with differences in gameplay.

For me MCH is lost between a ''Gun Master'' and ''Robot Summoner'' (the PvP MCH in counterpart is only on the ''Gun Master'' side and is very cool).

mch has plenty of hotbar space, why not have blast charge for more potency, with a cast
and one of the base 123 combo skills for instant attack with less potency, for movement?
it'd be kinda like hunter in cataclysm where they were rewarded for standing still with their filler but everything else was instant cast