button bloat

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Originally Posted by Reimmi

Please dont make this into wow

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(Most) of WoW's classes are more complex than the jobs here. With more buttons to boot. I wish they would.

Hate threads like this because they always lead to homogenization and classes becoming even more braindead than they already are.

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Originally Posted by Doc_Seraph

ToS Legal I believe are:

In-game macros (not ideal but works)
Not certain about keyboards that allow macros..I assume since you are still there at the PC there should not be an issue its not as if you are afk etc.. but I am not certain about this nor would they really have a way to check if you are using a programmable keyboard.

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Going off of Yoshi-P's past statements about ACT, I think this is probably against ToS, but they will likely never check for or enforce it. They don't want to get into the business of invading their customers' privacy by scanning our systems for third party hardware/software that violates the ToS. As he put it, where do you draw the line? Do they go after 16-button gaming mice?

As far as in-game macros go, they've deliberately designed the macro system in a way that makes the in-game ones completely worthless for serious fights: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post1520788

The wait time is always in second intervals, and the half second difference between a manually executed rotation and a macro will effectively cut your DPS down by about 33%. If you're just running solo content then go for it, but I wouldn't recommend it for group situations and difficult fights.

There are ways to address button bloat, but Yoshi P has show us he obviously does not know how to correctly with such fine examples as High Jump into Mirage Dive, Minuet into Pitch Perfect, and removing Kaiten. The lesser of the two evils is deal with the bloat, make good key binds, and don't put everything on the bar some of that crap you will never press anyways.

The less we let them touch jobs, the better off we are in all honesty.

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Originally Posted by Shirala

If it was just 1-2-3 it would be fine. Nobody is asking for 1-1-1. What we have a problem with is when it is, in reality, 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-0-alt1-alt2-alt-3, etc. Most jobs require 3 full hotbars of buttons. That is neither possible nor fun for me, and that is why I use macros to stack skills.

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When I mean 1-1-1 it's the combo itself within the same key, not the same action repeated over and over. There are just as many asking for that as there are ones asking to stay as it is. I just feel that the excuse of that device (that is already used in PVP) dumbing the game down is arguable, given the potential of the vacant buttons to host new actions that would otherwise crowd the hotbars with some jobs.

Probably the only exception to the idea are jobs with branching filler combos like Monk.

Also.. XIV is a MMO with vertical growth. Although it handles much better than WoW does (literally overhauling every class system every xpac), there is gonna be a wall at some point where you need to overhaul a job, even if there's nothing wrong with it, and condensing combos or merging redundant buttons (draw+play) is a way to mitigate that a little bit. Well, unless a job doesn't get anything new other than just visual upgrades, which I assume that people would be dissatisfied with just that.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Most people that complain about it are clickers who never bothered to learn how to keybind.

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I'm on a controller but thanks.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

When I mean 1-1-1 it's the combo itself within the same key, not the same action repeated over and over. There are just as many asking for that as there are ones asking to stay as it is. I just feel that the excuse of that device (that is already used in PVP) dumbing the game down is arguable, given the potential of the vacant buttons to host new actions that would otherwise crowd the hotbars with some jobs.

Probably the only exception to the idea are jobs with branching filler combos like Monk.

Also.. XIV is a MMO with vertical growth. Although it handles much better than WoW does (literally overhauling every class system every xpac), there is gonna be a wall at some point where you need to overhaul a job, even if there's nothing wrong with it, and condensing combos or merging redundant buttons (draw+play) is a way to mitigate that a little bit. Well, unless a job doesn't get anything new other than just visual upgrades, which I assume that people would be dissatisfied with just that.

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Ah, I understand now, and I agree. There really needs to be an option (I said OPTION, people!) to allow combos to be handled the way they are in PvP.

I play Monk with stacked skill macros. I am obviously far from cutting edge DPS, but I really do enjoy playing the class that way because I am better able to react to what's around me, rather than staring at hotbars.

And to all the folks in this thread who suggested that I "practice more" or get better equipment, I really hope that you never have to deal with a disability.

I think the biggest issues with some of the "button bloat reductions" are how it can be conflicting design within itself to have abilities that behave substantally different to the ones they're linked with: [High] Jump (animation-locking jump action) -> Mirage Dive (ranged attack, can be executed on any condition.) Wanderer's Minuet (45 second Buff that adds an action and interaction) -> Pitch Perfect. (Added oGCD based on stacks that you press with considerable frequency.) Notice, for instance, how now BRD has 2 songs you press and forget and now for the third one you have to keep it close on your hotbar
I'm not really going to include Kaiten in this because as much as I miss Kaiten already, the changes in damage output to Samurai and the way Midare/Oni Namikiri work are substantial enough for me to accept the removal of it.
Even when logically you can make the argument that you can only execute one after the other, it still feels wrong in a sense of feedback for what you're doing. Imagine if Continuation just built up off of Gnashing Fang and the whole 6 actions, GCD and oGCD follow-ups, were all bound to a single button. That's not remotely as interesting feedback-wise as alternating between the both of them as you'd do now.

I think the direction the FF14 team is taking regarding streamlining jobs is getting dangerous, and they should look into regressing some of these changes as they, in my opinion, reduce some of the fun and skill expression that the game allows for

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Originally Posted by SirPawsies

Imagine if Continuation just built up off of Gnashing Fang and the whole 6 actions, GCD and oGCD follow-ups, were all bound to a single button. That's not remotely as interesting feedback-wise as alternating between the both of them as you'd do now.

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You do know that this is a common macro and a certain mod does exactly this right?

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Originally Posted by Nothv13

You do know that this is a common macro and a certain mod does exactly this right?

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One of those doesn't work very well due to the macro system (intentionally) not queueing actions the same way regular actions do; the other breaks ToS and I personally dislike a lot on the principle of making you play less of the game.

But yeah they exist I guess

I don't know about this. When I played Prot Warrior my hotbar consisted quite literally to 6 buttons. This was during Cataclysm also.

Shield Block
Devastate
Revenge
Cleave
Thunder Clap
Shield Slam

Funny thing was...this WAS way more engaging then a 2 min opener rotation. Maybe because in WoW you could literally min-max your % based stats like dodge, block, parry, evade to help proc your skills/talents that added a ton of value to encounters.

Those were the main buttons you hit that generated the most agro, and the job was STILL incredibly complex with fight mechanics, positioning, and resource management.

But then again WoW was WILDLY imbalanced as where this game is literally the opposite of that.

I'm a fan of traiting skills as you level to make new and interesting job mechanics. It may be a tad peace meal like BLM or DRG, but at least your not saying "Where the hell am I going to put that on my already crammed hotbar?"

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Originally Posted by WhiteWitch

Machinist is in dire need of some simplification. It's exhausting to play at full capacity. Look at this full rotation that takes 6minutes to do. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CNoAL2do6o
I played MCH in Aglaia and was physically exhausted afterwards.

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No, never say this again or we will get gutted again. And the rotation does not take 6 minutes there isn't even a 6 minute rotation in the game, even summoner in 5.0 had a shorter rotation. Stop making things up this is why the game keeps getting bad yall keep giving out fake bs. Keep my jobs name outcha mouth.

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Originally Posted by WhiteWitch

Have you played it in any content above roulettes? The problem is there is no reward for the effort you put in to play MCH. It has the most busy mechanics and lowest personal dps...and yet you can braindead the mages for more DPS.
The heavensward classes are in need of some help for real. DRK is just...okay. It's not particularly bad or good. Look at how astro was gutted like 3 times.

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Have you? Why am I even asking? You said it takes 6 minutes to do the rotation of course you don't, you don't even play MCH. This is why bad changes happen, people that do not know what they are talking about make poor suggestions. MCH is very brain dead it's just high APM because you are double weaving almost every gcd. Is it rewarding? Not really just some dopamine pumps from those direct crit drills. Does it need to be simplified? Outside of the crappy hyper charge / heat blast not really, it is brain dead enough already. DRK is slightly more brain dead than warrior.

Your first post, stated that BLM was extremely simple when as it is currently, it is probably the most complex job we currently have. Most jobs dream of being that engaging and complex. Go back to playing crafters and getting those skills reduced. Leave the real jobs for the adults to discuss.

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Originally Posted by WhiteWitch

I'm sorry ur so hurt that i am critiquing MCH.

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By all means criticize the class, it's in pretty terrible state. But at least use accurate information.

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Originally Posted by WhiteWitch

That video is straight from the balance discord, why don't u go yell at their mods?
it's a opener/rotation guide alotting for two attack windows and pots

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You pulled a video of someone attacking a dummy for 6 minutes and claimed it was a 6 minute rotation. The balance are just a bunch of number crunchers, over half of the rotations they make are unrealistic in actual game play. People clear savage fights in 6 minutes... use some form of logic rather than spouting out what ever other people post that you misread.

And to you childishly deleting all your posts with :Reason: dude is mad im critiquing machinist and thus says go back to crafting LEL. All I suggest is know what your are talking about if you are going to make criticism or suggestions.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

Your first post, stated that BLM was extremely simple when as it is currently, it is probably the most complex job we currently have. Most jobs dream of being that engaging and complex. Go back to playing crafters and getting those skills reduced. Leave the real jobs for the adults to discuss.

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Just highlighting this. the job with quite probably the least buttons and one of the lowest actions per minute is the most complex and engaging job to play...

just proves more buttons doesn't mean better job.

the problem with many jobs is how many of the buttons are essentially just filler fluff. something a lot of the jobs could learn from honestly.

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Originally Posted by DormantOne

i justed wanted to tell SquareEnix that im happy your guys are working on this. my ideal class has 4-6 buttons for single target rotation, 1-2 for aoe, 1-2 cooldowns and the rest for other stuff like mount, role actions etc.

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This is the only video game I’ve seen besides WoW that requires 20+ buttons just to kill something. It’s time for MMOs to break from WoW’s clutches. It’s 20 years old.

Many people love the 1-2-3 system because it provides a false sense of activity. You’re still pressing a static rotation, but your finger is in a slightly different spot. If people want that kind of combat, that’s fine, but many other games do it better.

The alternative is to make an engaging context-dependent combat system. Mechanics are more complicated because your rotation depends on the current state or location of the boss. That is far more complicated to implement, but perhaps we can reach a compromise. PvP has a context-dependent system and it works well. Perhaps PvE mechanics can become faster and require more mobility in exchange for auto-combo abilities?

Change is inconvenient and many people will love to stick to WoW’s system for the next 20 years (let’s make it last for 40). But if you’ve bought any game in 2022, you’d realize that something is missing and 1-2-3 just isn’t cutting it anymore.

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Originally Posted by caffe_macchiato

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I...don't think you've ever played wow if you think it takes over 20 buttons to kill something there. They do more with less because of the 1.5 sec gcd, they have virtually no OGCD attacks. Over there the primary style is resource management, pooling and spending efficiently.

1-2-3 is a product of this game, wow has never done that.

Aside from a few exceptions, you don't have a whole lot of actual rotational buttons over there, a lot of your other buttons end up being utility. Stuns, roots, snares, buffs, non-damage debuffs, interrupts, movement abilities, and the like. I think some of the more rotationally bloated specs i've played have been unholy DK and affliction warlock... oh and holy priest. Holy priest has sooo many buttons.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Just highlighting this. the job with quite probably the least buttons and one of the lowest actions per minute is the most complex and engaging job to play...

just proves more buttons doesn't mean better job.

the problem with many jobs is how many of the buttons are essentially just filler fluff. something a lot of the jobs could learn from honestly.

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Part of that is because it is a caster. I would not expect a caster to be high APM. But no APM does not mean complexity you can have high APM and low APM jobs with the same level of complexity. High vs low APM are more or less play styles. Ninja and monk are two classes that would come to mind when I think of things that would be a high APM class. Black mage and summoner are two things that come to mind when i think of low APM classes. APM has nothing to do with button bloat, or complexity, you can have high APM and just hit 3 buttons at a higher frequency than others. So this is a very moot point.

Best example is when you compare BLM and SMN, similar low APMs one is clearly more complex and engaging than the other. Ninja and MCH almost the same APMs same situation. Also Black mage does have about the same number of buttons as a good portion of the classes.

The actual reason that BLM has less button bloat is not even because of the number of actions. BLM learns 31 actions where as most classes learn about 28-29. Blm spells are often upgrading to other skills, rather than being an additional button. Many of these actions are also longer CD skills or not used but in very niche situations. If Yoshi P were able to make skills upgrades in an intelligent and logical way, or have skills chain into skills in an intelligent and logical way that would solve most of you button bloat problems if not all. Problem is based off this patch is they are unable to do this in an intelligent or logical way, likely because they don't have a clear understanding of there own jobs they created.

Good examples of how to address button bloat would be Paladins new combo in 6.0 chaining off of confiteor, or Fel Cleave turning into Nascent Chaos and leaving Primal Rend as it own button.

Bad examples of of address button bloat would be removal of kaiten, or turning wanders minuet into pitch perfect.

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Originally Posted by Akantorz

So changing the Kenki gauge to a "PRESS THE GLOWY BUTTON FOR DAMAGE!" is better than managing your Kenki to get the damage buff and getting a SWEET animation to boot? Please stop speaking for Samurais like you know how to play one. Managing Kenki is pointless now, you just slap the glowy button until you have no more kenki, not fun really.

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Most people animation cancel, so your "SWEET animation" means absolutely nothing to them.

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Originally Posted by caffe_macchiato

This is the only video game I’ve seen besides WoW that requires 20+ buttons just to kill something. It’s time for MMOs to break from WoW’s clutches. It’s 20 years old.

Many people love the 1-2-3 system because it provides a false sense of activity. You’re still pressing a static rotation, but your finger is in a slightly different spot. If people want that kind of combat, that’s fine, but many other games do it better.

The alternative is to make an engaging context-dependent combat system. Mechanics are more complicated because your rotation depends on the current state or location of the boss. That is far more complicated to implement, but perhaps we can reach a compromise. PvP has a context-dependent system and it works well. Perhaps PvE mechanics can become faster and require more mobility in exchange for auto-combo abilities?

Change is inconvenient and many people will love to stick to WoW’s system for the next 20 years (let’s make it last for 40). But if you’ve bought any game in 2022, you’d realize that something is missing and 1-2-3 just isn’t cutting it anymore.

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Everquest and Everquest II would melt your brain then.