PvP Ranked System needs addressing.

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Originally Posted by loki_corgi

They gotta use Pokemon Unite's ranking system with the performance points. It's designed for babies and FFXIV players play like babies. It will go well together.

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By your logic wanting balanced matches in new mode is for babies aswell.

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Originally Posted by Remiferia

Which unfortunately is most matches for the people who aren't good enough to solo carry a team to a win in this team-based game.

I don't have all of the solutions, but saying that everyone should be in Bronze/Silver until they're so good at the game they can solo carry teams defeats the purpose of having 6 entire tiers in the first place. It's meant to be a gradual climb to your current skill ceiling, not quicksand at the bottom until you're so good at the game you can fly out of it. I can guarantee that the distribution of players in Bronze is disgustingly high which should be raising all kinds of alarm bells that MAYBE the communication options aren't good enough (someone sent me a Tell after a match demanding I 'stop spamming' when I was just shot-calling when to retreat), or that the Ranked system is so punishing that most people can't grind at all.

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"Solo carry". 1 person isn't going to carry in a 5v5 mode, when you often have 3-4 people running around like chickens. With the PvP kits as they are, the skill ceiling is only so high. Said skilled person can only do so much. Especially in a world where one shots are a thing (for some reason)

No? I'm saying the community is bad at the game and they should use a friendlier ranking system.

(This is a response to Stasya's comment)

I'm sure you all realize this 'ranking' system already has concessions built into it. Consider the fact that win streaks and rank floors exist, while losses will always only remove 1 star. It is hugely biased in favour of allowing you to rank up, even someone with a <50% winrate will eventually streak their way to diamond with enough luck.

The previous system the feast used was similar. It basically means bronze-diamond rankings are fake and partly a measure of how much grinding someone did.

While not a real competitive ranking system, I would say it's the correct one to use for content like this. Plenty of games do it this way to give more casual players a tangible feeling of progression. You haven't seen real frustration yet. If they made it truly zero-sum, people would be stuck in bronze or silver for real.

This is just the same complaints as every online PvP game with matchmaking in the history of forever. "I love the game, but I keep getting bad teams!"

Can't win because my team sucks. Can't win because of bad balance. Can't win because other team had better comp/classes. Can't win because no comms. Can't win because of lag. It's everyone's fault except mine.

How is it possible that there are champions at games like Poker or Yugioh if what cards you draw are random? The answer is that you can't expect to win every match, but by playing the hands you're dealt intelligently you can manage a >50% winrate which is enough to advance as long as you play enough games. Everyone is subject to the same RNG, and for every person who keeps going on losing streaks there's someone else going on winning streaks. The only consistent factor across every match is you.

If you're going on losing streaks consistently and can't push your winrate over 50 even after hundreds of matches, that means you're already at the right tier for your skill level. Ranking isn't like leveling up, it's not a progression system. It's a system designed to place people where they belong.

I'd also like to point out that this mode and PvP revamp is literally 3 days old and filled with people who have never PvP'd in their life. Even if people knew what they were doing, it takes time to learn proper meta strategies and techniques. We're still far from that, most players are still learning the absolute basics like how to play their job and the objective.

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Originally Posted by PangTong

This is just the same complaints as every online PvP game with matchmaking in the history of forever. "I love the game, but I keep getting bad teams!"

Can't win because my team sucks. Can't win because of bad balance. Can't win because other team had better comp/classes. Can't win because no comms. Can't win because of lag. It's everyone's fault except mine.

How is it possible that there are champions at games like Poker or Yugioh if what cards you draw are random? The answer is that you can't expect to win every match, but by playing the hands you're dealt intelligently you can manage a >50% winrate which is enough to advance as long as you play enough games. Everyone is subject to the same RNG, and for every person who keeps going on losing streaks there's someone else going on winning streaks. The only consistent factor across every match is you.

If you're going on losing streaks consistently and can't push your winrate over 50 even after hundreds of matches, that means you're already at the right tier for your skill level. Ranking isn't like leveling up, it's not a progression system. It's a system designed to place people where they belong.

I'd also like to point out that this mode and PvP revamp is literally 3 days old and filled with people who have never PvP'd in their life. Even if people knew what they were doing, it takes time to learn proper meta strategies and techniques. We're still far from that, most players are still learning the absolute basics like how to play their job and the objective.

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Because your success is entirely dependent on you. Not 4 other people. I'm not sure what there is to learn about "standing on the crystal".

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Originally Posted by Velnora

Because your success is entirely dependent on you. Not 4 other people. I'm not sure what there is to learn about "standing on the crystal".

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Except you have to understand what you are fighting, putting your entire team on the crystal is usually stupid. Thats a good way for a WHM to pentakill your team.

Feel like I'm permanently stuck in silver because of a bad streak. 2 times now I've gotten 3 stars in silver and still didn't rank up because the next game I'd lose. It's beyond frustrating. Why even have a system where you lose progress, especially when you have no control over who you play with/against?

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Originally Posted by Qeilos

Except you have to understand what you are fighting, putting your entire team on the crystal is usually stupid. Thats a good way for a WHM to pentakill your team.

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I did not say put the entire team on it.

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Originally Posted by PangTong

This is just the same complaints as every online PvP game with matchmaking in the history of forever. "I love the game, but I keep getting bad teams!"

Can't win because my team sucks. Can't win because of bad balance. Can't win because other team had better comp/classes. Can't win because no comms. Can't win because of lag. It's everyone's fault except mine.

How is it possible that there are champions at games like Poker or Yugioh if what cards you draw are random? The answer is that you can't expect to win every match, but by playing the hands you're dealt intelligently you can manage a >50% winrate which is enough to advance as long as you play enough games. Everyone is subject to the same RNG, and for every person who keeps going on losing streaks there's someone else going on winning streaks. The only consistent factor across every match is you.

If you're going on losing streaks consistently and can't push your winrate over 50 even after hundreds of matches, that means you're already at the right tier for your skill level. Ranking isn't like leveling up, it's not a progression system. It's a system designed to place people where they belong.

I'd also like to point out that this mode and PvP revamp is literally 3 days old and filled with people who have never PvP'd in their life. Even if people knew what they were doing, it takes time to learn proper meta strategies and techniques. We're still far from that, most players are still learning the absolute basics like how to play their job and the objective.

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At what point though is it an absurd ask of one player. Should I now be aiming to triple the damage of team members to try and actually carry the game? At what point do you look at this and go ah ya thats reasonable. https://i.imgur.com/KO4d3vd.png

Yes, exactly this. I'm stuck in the same tier for many hundred games while doing more dmg than my entire group.
The whole ranking system is nothing but an rng penalty that causes anger. If people decide to kill themselves by
their actions their is nothing i can do to make the team win.

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Originally Posted by PangTong

I'd also like to point out that this mode and PvP revamp is literally 3 days old and filled with people who have never PvP'd in their life. Even if people knew what they were doing, it takes time to learn proper meta strategies and techniques. We're still far from that, most players are still learning the absolute basics like how to play their job and the objective.

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You could have done without the entire first 4 paragraphs of your argument and you'd have something solid.

Let's use your Yu-Gi-Oh example, as I'm an avid player. Want to know how people won games despite the cards drawn being random? They have complete control over the contents of their deck, and they are ultimately responsible for winning and losing by their own merit. Yu-Gi-Oh! also has an established meta no matter what era of the game you're looking into, and top players are pigeon-holed into playing those handful of decks if they want to win more consistently.

In Mahjong (and Poker), another game I'd like to believe myself very good at, the Grandmasters of the game still only have a winrate of about 40%. You can strategise all you like but the luck of the tiles dictates the game. Fortunately for Mahjong, the art isn't in winning, but in not losing, and only your own game sense is required to minimise the damage if your hand isn't getting anywhere.

In CC? Your performance is dependent entirely on 4 other players. I would LOVE to sit back and say 'Yeah that was my fault', and sometimes I make a play so bad I can actually recognise myself as the problem there; but for the most part the actual 'teamwork' in this teamwork game is buried beneath awkward call-outs, solo queue, people running off and taking fights as the objective moves behind them etc.

How anyone can come into this thread and say 'This game mode is full of new players who don't know how to play the game' and follow it up with 'But if you aren't winning consistently you are already in the tier you belong' is absolutely insane to me.

Here's an idea, and feel free to call me crazy. But if you suck at Crystalline Conflict then play the casual mode to improve... that's why it's there. Stop punishing everyone else with your suckery. Thanks for coming to my ted talk.

You don't have to win consistently. You have to win more than you lose. Even 51 wins to 49 losses is still advancing. The team you get is RNG, but it's RNG for everyone. Everyone is drawing their teams from the same pool of players, your opponents aren't hooked up to a secret queue that only matches them with gods. The only thing you have control over in each game is yourself, so all you can do is do your best and eventually that will reflect in your win rate as you play with all kinds of teams and matchups. As the variables get averaged out over hundreds of games, your own influence is what remains. No one is unlucky forever. If it was pure luck of the draw and your own actions make no difference then everyone would have perfect 50% win rate regardless of what they did.

The point regarding players not yet knowing what to do is that the seemingly binary steamroll or get steamrolled outcome is something that will improve in time as players improve or drop out of the system. Player skill will gradually even out and matches will become less one-sided. But even right now, it's not so absurd that you can't make a difference, and like I said, those players are getting put on both teams.

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Originally Posted by PangTong

You don't have to win consistently. You have to win more than you lose. Even 51 wins to 49 losses is still advancing. The team you get is RNG, but it's RNG for everyone. Everyone is drawing their teams from the same pool of players, your opponents aren't hooked up to a secret queue that only matches them with gods. The only thing you have control over in each game is yourself, so all you can do is do your best and eventually that will reflect in your win rate as you play with all kinds of teams and matchups. As the variables get averaged out over hundreds of games, your own influence is what remains. No one is unlucky forever. If it was pure luck of the draw and your own actions make no difference then everyone would have perfect 50% win rate regardless of what they did.

The point regarding players not yet knowing what to do is that the seemingly binary steamroll or get steamrolled outcome is something that will improve in time as players improve or drop out of the system. Player skill will gradually even out and matches will become less one-sided. But even right now, it's not so absurd that you can't make a difference, and like I said, those players are getting put on both teams.

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The problem is that 51 wins to 49 losses can end up as Bronze 3 with one star if the pattern was win-(loss-win)-loss but also anywhere way higher because you just happened to get a 5-6 win streak.

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Originally Posted by Azuri

The problem is that 51 wins to 49 losses can end up as Bronze 3 with one star if the pattern was win-(loss-win)-loss but also anywhere way higher because you just happened to get a 5-6 win streak.

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Exactly this. This is EXACTLY it.

Even on a smaller scale. 6/10 wins with a W-L-W-L pattern will amount to Bronze 3. 6/10 wins where you won 6 in a row followed by 4 straight defeats comes puts you on the cusp of Silver 1 before you cushion out at Silver 3.

In order to climb, you need to win >66% of your matches overall, and even that would be a +1 star after every 3 matches.

There is a reason games that have been doing this for years make each progressive tier more difficult to get into and it's to get people into the tier that represents their skill level. Bronze should not be a crab bucket where the majority are.

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Originally Posted by Azuri

The problem is that 51 wins to 49 losses can end up as Bronze 3 with one star if the pattern was win-(loss-win)-loss but also anywhere way higher because you just happened to get a 5-6 win streak.

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They could fix that by allowing you to derank, but I'm guessing most people wouldn't like that. That's a way in which the system is actually kind to players trying to advance. You can't be knocked back from certain milestones even if your winrate shows that you kind of should be.

I'm open to the idea of reducing the number of risers in the lower tiers though so that players who legitimately have the skill to advance don't get stuck there for so long.

I just wanna play with sweaty tryhards. I dont wanna play ranked with people doing it "for fun" id gladly pay 200k gil per queue to weed out people who arent tryharding out of their minds.

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Originally Posted by PangTong

They could fix that by allowing you to derank, but I'm guessing most people wouldn't like that. That's a way in which the system is actually kind to players trying to advance. You can't be knocked back from certain milestones even if your winrate shows that you kind of should be.

I'm open to the idea of reducing the number of risers in the lower tiers though so that players who legitimately have the skill to advance don't get stuck there for so long.

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You do derank once you get to Platinum. It's incredibly obnoxious. I could win 7 games in a row and be on the verge of Diamond, lose 3 and get deranked down to Plat 2.

Honestly, rather than fixing the RNG W/L just remove overtime and make the game a draw where no one gets and +/-. OT has jank dumb rules to it, you could die 9 times, pop a LB in OT and just instantly win regardless of where the crystal is. I've lost so many games where we've been waxing the ass of the enemy team right on their doorstep, get 2 deaths in OT and instantly lose.

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Originally Posted by Eskuire

You do derank once you get to Platinum. It's incredibly obnoxious. I could win 7 games in a row and be on the verge of Diamond, lose 3 and get deranked down to Plat 2.

Honestly, rather than fixing the RNG W/L just remove overtime and make the game a draw where no one gets and +/-. OT has jank dumb rules to it, you could die 9 times, pop a LB in OT and just instantly win regardless of where the crystal is. I've lost so many games where we've been waxing the ass of the enemy team right on their doorstep, get 2 deaths in OT and instantly lose.

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No like when ppl say derank they mean divisions, You can go from silver 1 to silver 3 but you can never fall back into bronze no matter how much you lose, Silver 1 and Silver 3 is still silver so no derank has occured.

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Originally Posted by PangTong

They could fix that by allowing you to derank, but I'm guessing most people wouldn't like that.

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I'm not against this idea, as this is the Overwatch method of falling through the floor and I didn't mind it very much (even though slipping from Master to Diamond broke a couple controllers).

Speaking of Overwatch. Season 1 did not have a tier system, but a 'Skill Rating' between 1-100. You had to play placement matches (another thing PvP could do with) to have your number determined, but people quickly found that they didn't understand the value of their score because, guess what, the number went up more with win streaks and down with loss streaks. They recognised the issue and switched to a contribution-based tier system in S2 onwards (with tweaks).

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Originally Posted by PangTong

This is just the same complaints as every online PvP game with matchmaking in the history of forever. "I love the game, but I keep getting bad teams!"

Can't win because my team sucks. Can't win because of bad balance. Can't win because other team had better comp/classes. Can't win because no comms. Can't win because of lag. It's everyone's fault except mine.

How is it possible that there are champions at games like Poker or Yugioh if what cards you draw are random? The answer is that you can't expect to win every match, but by playing the hands you're dealt intelligently you can manage a >50% winrate which is enough to advance as long as you play enough games. Everyone is subject to the same RNG, and for every person who keeps going on losing streaks there's someone else going on winning streaks. The only consistent factor across every match is you.

If you're going on losing streaks consistently and can't push your winrate over 50 even after hundreds of matches, that means you're already at the right tier for your skill level. Ranking isn't like leveling up, it's not a progression system. It's a system designed to place people where they belong.

I'd also like to point out that this mode and PvP revamp is literally 3 days old and filled with people who have never PvP'd in their life. Even if people knew what they were doing, it takes time to learn proper meta strategies and techniques. We're still far from that, most players are still learning the absolute basics like how to play their job and the objective.

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Dude I can't believe how many people simply cannot accept this fundamental idea. If you're hardstuck in a certain rank, maybe you belong there at this moment because that's where your skill level is at.

I'm not saying uh-oh you're at the absolute limit of your skill potential and this is it. But think deeply about whether you've really deliberately and intentionally looked at your mistakes and tried to learn from them? Or did you lose, complain about rng and how your team is a buncha shitters, and then requeue immediately.

Think about it, your team and the enemy team are just as equally likely to have shitters. If you really are the godsent pvp gamer you think you are, you're always gonna have an advantage because your team only has 4 shitters, while the enemy team has 5. If you truly deserve to be at a higher rank, you will get there.

Instead of complaining about rng and how the ranked system is unfair, go watch a guide or something.
Are you using Guard when the wind starts blowing on the tornado map? Using Guard both proactively and reactively, instead of just panic guarding at 10% HP? Using Guard at all?
Are you avoiding attacking the enemy SAM when they're at full LB? Watching for DRG's LB AOE marker? Avoiding clumping up when WHM has full LB?
Are you keeping track of the enemies' HP and LB bars? etc. If not, go fix it and improve, and you will climb.

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Originally Posted by Viperia

Dude

Think about it, your team and the enemy team are just as equally likely to have shitters. If you really are the godsent pvp gamer you think you are, you're always gonna have an advantage because your team only has 4 shitters, while the enemy team has 5. If you truly deserve to be at a higher rank, you will get there.

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It's equally impressive how many people are willing to excuse the ranked system as it is and jump immediately to blaming the players without any amount of critical thinking, too. In fact the Venn diagram is practically a circle if we were to use this thread as it's sample size.

No one described themselves as the 'Godsent PvP player'. You have made up someone to talk to in your head and then decided to jab at them but no one is having the conversation you are.

Probability is based on strict rules. If you have one red ball and 4 blue balls in a bag you are 20% likely to draw red. PvP makes no decent attempt at SBMM or team composition balancing so you're just as likely to have the same number of 'shitters' as the other team as you are likely to have a team of shitters against a team of good players (or vice versa) and that gamble is frustrating.

Another big issue is when you are dropping sub rank you lose two wins. You go from 0 stars to 2/3 stars. Then you need a win to get back to 3 stars and another win to get back to 0 stars of the next sub rank. What this results in is dropping ranks is incredibly easy if you get unlucky with a loss streak and making those gains back can be very difficult as you need three wins in a row for a streak.

Solo queue is always a coinflip, regardless of game and genre. What makes it worse is class/character imbalance, which is a pretty huge issue right now. There is a monumental difference between the best jobs and the worst jobs, e.g. between a WAR and a GNB, which makes the coinflip seem even worse than it has to be, especially if you're playing one of the weaker jobs. This is something that should hopefully get better in time.

That being said, they should absolutely bring back the chat for ranked play, even though I don't see that happening because of their general stance on the matter. The quick chat was most likely their idea of adopting ping communication from MOBAs but it just doesn't work nearly as well in an arena-type MMORPG mode.

I wanted to add my post to this thread to say that I agree 100% with what the OP is saying, and I hope they seriously consider some ways the ranking system to make the mode more enjoyable. It's really a shame, because I find the mode fun, and I think the general PVP ability changes are really good and fun (some balance is needed, of course, but that's to be expected) but the ranking really kills it for me.

The PvP team for this game is laughably bad. I 100% believe they didn't test this mode before release.

I'd like to suggest a few changes to battle rewards:

Victory: + 1 Star
Draw: + 0.5 Star (Break streak)
Lose: - 0.5 Star (Break streak)

2nd Victory on a row: +1.5Star
3rd+ Victory on a row: + 2 Stars

There's only so much you can achieve as an individual and more often than not you get to Tier 1 and enter a losing streak all the way to Tier 3 no stars.

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Originally Posted by aeoncs

Solo queue is always a coinflip, regardless of game and genre. What makes it worse is class/character imbalance, which is a pretty huge issue right now. There is a monumental difference between the best jobs and the worst jobs, e.g. between a WAR and a GNB, which makes the coinflip seem even worse than it has to be, especially if you're playing one of the weaker jobs. This is something that should hopefully get better in time.

That being said, they should absolutely bring back the chat for ranked play, even though I don't see that happening because of their general stance on the matter. The quick chat was most likely their idea of adopting ping communication from MOBAs but it just doesn't work nearly as well in an arena-type MMORPG mode.

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If they want it to be moba inspired give me the ping wheel. Like hold CTRL and select it or something. As it stands if you truly want to be highly communicative to include both markers and calls you will have more callouts/markers on your bar than your job actions which is certainly...a design choice.

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Originally Posted by Balmung_Griffin

I'd like to suggest a few changes to battle rewards:

Victory: + 1 Star
Draw: + 0.5 Star (Break streak)
Lose: - 0.5 Star (Break streak)

2nd Victory on a row: +1.5Star
3rd+ Victory on a row: + 2 Stars

There's only so much you can achieve as an individual and more often than not you get to Tier 1 and enter a losing streak all the way to Tier 3 no stars.

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That sounds much better and would at least compensate bad groups a bit.

The fact war and whm made it in like this makes me question if any testing was actually done.

Beyond just that we've also got whm's now abusing the cure 2 glitch or using an auto cc plugin to instantly imp lbs.

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Originally Posted by Tahseh

The fact war and whm made it in like this makes me question if any testing was actually done.

Beyond just that we've also got whm's now abusing the cure 2 glitch or using an auto cc plugin to instantly imp lbs.

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Lets be fair, they tested it. But from what ive witnessed watching Pro scenes of multiple esports games....Japans pvp playerbase of any game is probably miniscule. The likelihood of having a good amount of high octane pvp players internally is probably unrealistic and when you play this casually with people just herping around for fun it probably doesnt seem that off.

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Originally Posted by Qeilos

Lets be fair, they tested it. But from what ive witnessed watching Pro scenes of multiple esports games....Japans pvp playerbase of any game is probably miniscule. The likelihood of having a good amount of high octane pvp players internally is probably unrealistic and when you play this casually with people just herping around for fun it probably doesnt seem that off.

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This is nonsense. JP players have pro scenes and some of the most competitive matches I've ever in fighting games were from JP players when I was living in JP. Obviously we have top tier players in the US as well, but the "average" skilled player in JP in most fighting games dumped on the above average western players.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

This is nonsense. JP players have pro scenes and some of the most competitive matches I've ever in fighting games were from JP players when I was living in JP. Obviously we have top tier players in the US as well, but the "average" skilled player in JP in most fighting games dumped on the above average western players.

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This has no parity with fighting games. What this does have parity with is Overwatch, LoL, Counter Strike etc. a 1v1 fighting game is not in the same bucket of conversation as this.

I will never understand for the life of me why they don't tie PVP achievements to stuff other than rank. Like how many kills/assists you got. That way, you're encouraged to always play at your best level (whatever it is) rather than leaving everything to the luck of the draw.

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Originally Posted by Tahseh

The fact war and whm made it in like this makes me question if any testing was actually done.

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I sincerely doubt it, else they would have realized an AoE stun on a 15s cooldown in PvP was a bad idea...just like how an AoE attack from DRG makes all enemies near them do 50% less damage to the DRG. Stuff like that is far too powerful.

I find it a bit ironic that while MNK was seemingly designed with the intent of being the "tanky" melee DPS, DRG is arguably better at it simply because they have actual damage mitigation from Horrid Roar plus a significant shield from their LB.

There's been way too many moments where I pop Earth's Reply then get bursted from 100% to dead so quickly that I don't even have time to trigger the stored damage; moreso when I'm often getting spammed CC. Maybe they can add a CC removal to Earth's Reply so you can actually get it off reliably and perhaps some damage mitigation to boot.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

I sincerely doubt it, else they would have realized an AoE stun on a 15s cooldown in PvP was a bad idea...just like how an AoE attack from DRG makes all enemies near them do 50% less damage to the DRG. Stuff like that is far too powerful.

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I think the sad part about the DRG roar is that it's actually a much better engagement tool than anything the tanks have except for Warrior's bloodwhetting, which is pretty much why I ended up deciding to main Dragoon instead of any of the tanks

Though I'd argue that it just means that the tanks are underpowered instead of Dragoon being overpowered

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

I think the sad part about the DRG roar is that it's actually a much better engagement tool than anything the tanks have except for Warrior's bloodwhetting, which is pretty much why I ended up deciding to main Dragoon instead of any of the tanks

Though I'd argue that it just means that the tanks are underpowered instead of Dragoon being overpowered

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I'm rather surprised it wasn't given to WAR (not that it needs it), screaming to lower damage taken fits their job identity well.

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Originally Posted by Remiferia

The #1 player on the Data Centre gets an Adventurer Plate kit, as do the Top 100, hence the head-scratching as to why they just repeated the same mistakes they made with The Feast. Exclusive rewards for the people that have more time than others creating another culture of Win Trading/Boosting.

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Well I don't think wintrading happened because people didn't have time to play the game. The pvp was absolute garbage prior to this patch. Don't think pvp ever had an active time as it has now. It was always dead.
No serious pvper who came to ffxiv put anytime in to it. At one point you even had to do your whole 123 123, pop a cd, 123 123, 123, 123, while using off gcds.
Even making the combos in to 1 buttons was horrible.

Also more time doesn't equal to more wins. Take a new player playing 200 hrs & a very skilled pvper playing 100hrs, you think the new player will hit a higher rank? Theres skill involved. People who constantly nag on "luck" all the time, are the people who never rise. Now I do know theres addons, plugins, cheats etc and i hope they adress them & remove them, start banning people. Otherwise it would be a shame to see pvp die out again.