Regarding the reaction to 6.1 SAM changes

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Originally Posted by Ayche

I don't have a dog in that race, they could had kept Kaiten in the game until that moment comes.
But Shinten vs Kaiten disparity was always going to limit future actions no matter what.

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For someone who doesn't have a dog in this race, you sure seem to care a lot about telling us how useless Kaiten was.
It's interesting how the only people who seem to applaud these changes are people who don't main SAM or play it regularly. What's more interesting is that you're a SMN and instead of empathising with another class that's getting ruined, you're gloating and otherwise not adding much to a 'race that you don't have a dog in.' SAM mains have *all* the dogs in the race, they have the racetrack and they have the punters who are placing bets, it's probably worth listening to what they have to say.

Samurai main ever since I hit lv50 on my first job back in the second month of Stormblood, presently farming P4S with my static.

I very much laothe the removal of Hissatsu: Kaiten.
I've been practicing on striking dummies this morning of patch 6.1, and the lack of Kaiten feels awful. In spite of guaranteed critical hits, Midare Setsugekka, Ogi Namakiri, and their Kaeshi variants feel un-earned and powerless without Kaiten's satisfying wind-up animation and sound effect.
Moreover, lacking Kaiten's effect on the Kenki gauge causes the resource to feel rather pointless, and it feels awkward using Shinten (and ONLY Shinten) more frequently as a result.
Tenka Goken being a circle AoE rather than a cone is fine, but like with other Iajutsu actions, the lack of Kaiten makes it feel flaccid.

Hissatsu: Kaiten is to Samurai's Iajutsu as impact frames are to an explosive animation, as a moment's silence is to an epic orchestral drop. It's the key tension-builder that's been with me since I started the game in earnest, and it pains me to feel so dissatisfied with the job I've loved so dearly these many years because of Kaiten's absence.

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Originally Posted by Vencio

I genuinely am thrilled & excited for SAM changes + less buttons/less cluttering = the more fun, more immersion, the better!

I truly don’t understand why is it bothering most people that bad,

It hardly is any nerfing really

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Wtf does it have to do with immersion?
Kaiten is like the last button that could be considered button bloat, it added actual variety to the Kenki spending if you want to talk about button bloat then look at Shoha 1 and 2 for example...

I really don't understand why people think that less buttons = more fun, it just makes it more repetitive and less varied that's not an opinion that's just objectively true.
And Kaiten wasn't button bloat it added more to the rotation than a lot of other skills do.

Yeah the MSQ NPC fight sequences, truly the height of fun gameplay with their 2-4 buttons.

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Originally Posted by Awkward

It's mostly from people who meta bandwagon honestly, there are plenty of other jobs in much worse shape than SAM ever was who never complained to this alarming degree.

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What does this have to do with '' meta bandwagons ''???????????????????
This is a gameplay issue holy hell I am going absolutely insane, please recognize that maybe if people in such large numbers are vocal about something they might actually have a point.
Especially people who actually play SAM as their main Job and doesn't just do the MSQ and dungeons.
It's so annoying to read people talking about it who don't even understand why people are upset o_O.

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Originally Posted by Awkward

It's mostly from people who meta bandwagon honestly, there are plenty of other jobs in much worse shape than SAM ever was who never complained to this alarming degree.

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Looking at your characters on lodestone, maybe you should unlock SAM via the job quest and actually level it to 90 before giving feedback on changes.

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Originally Posted by DreadfullyAwful

Looking at your characters on lodestone, maybe you should unlock SAM via the job quest and actually level it to 90 before giving feedback on changes.

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'' Hey guys I don't play SAM/ just dinged it/ boosted it and imma lecture you all about how these changes are good and why y'all are toxic elitists. ''

I’ll start by disclosing that I don’t main Samurai, or play it to any meaningful extent, but I agree with many Samurai mains that these changes compromise the core aspect of the job and diminish the rewarding playstyle that it provided.

As a friend who does main samurai since the job was originally released put it, “imagine if they removed dragon kick, gave bootshine auto crit without it, but cut the potency of your chakra finishers to half and gave it to twin snakes and snap.” Basically, removing a cool ability that is a meaningful part of the job, and killing the impact felt by playing properly and building your resources. It’s like a story that doesn’t have any rising action, and the climax is something boring and predictable.

SE is removing the feel of playing a samurai from SAM, taking away the buildup, the oomph, and what’s left is a more generic and bland play-style. I don’t have to play the job to understand the outcry against these changes.

Please SE, look at the negative impact this has had on the enjoyment of your player base, and consider reverting these drastic changes. I want to keep playing an MMO in which each job has an least some semblance of unique identity. Otherwise, what’s the point of having different jobs to choose from?

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Originally Posted by ShanaShirayuki

How incredibly condescending. I've been maining this class since Stormblood and you say all of our opinions and experience with the class are invalid? Get over yourself.

Also it seems you weren't here during the Hagakure debacle; there was similar backlash which prompted SE to re-add it back into the game. Then again based on your posts, ignorance on this matter seems to be your forte.

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Facts! People that dont even play the class should just stfu since it has nothing to do with them and are obviously clueless in regards to how these changes negatively effect the synergy that sam has with other jobs, not to mention how less fun and hollow it feels.

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Originally Posted by Val_Bloodfallen

Facts! People that dont even play the class should just stfu since it has nothing to do with them and are obviously clueless in regards to how these changes negatively effect the synergy that sam has with other jobs, not to mention how less fun and hollow it feels.

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Correct. The main criticism isn't even about damage but about the feel of the job after the changes.

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Originally Posted by Ranh

Correct. The main criticism isn't even about damage but about the feel of the job after the changes.

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Pretty much this. There are just several argue points I keep seeing
- Button/Action Bloat Excuse
- DPS Performance didn't change
- It's just one button
- Gatekeeping
6.1 SAM changes did not address anything.

Action/Bloat got debunked and multiple better solutions got proposed already. DPS performance did get hit and the feel of hitting big hits got reduced. Part of our identity to hit hard btw. 6.1 wasn't just one Button removal, Kaiten meant a whole damn lot to our gameplay. Gatekeeping... what even does this mean? the game is to hard? are you doing Savage/Ultimates? You don't need to know proper rotations of anything to do casual content. You're gatekeeping yourself.

No matter " What the reason " in someway shape or form, Samurai enjoyment got hit in 6.1. Yes Enjoyment. Numbers/Parsing/Rotation Execution/Aesthetics/Feel of AoE, it got negatively hit for fixing " Absolutely Nothing " and Addressing complaints no one made before the patch hit.

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Originally Posted by Awkward

It's mostly from people who meta bandwagon honestly, there are plenty of other jobs in much worse shape than SAM ever was who never complained to this alarming degree.

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Its almost like you have no idea what you're talking about

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Originally Posted by Awkward

It's mostly from people who meta bandwagon honestly, there are plenty of other jobs in much worse shape than SAM ever was who never complained to this alarming degree.

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I’ve never once used SAM for EX/Savage , and have made myself perfectly clear how much I give less of a shat about meta and numbers and even still I think the sam changes are horrible.

How disingenuous to paint the whole issue as a “meta bandwagon” issue while jobs are shrinking across the board while people are so dead set on eachother to notice. Get over yourself and open your eyes

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Originally Posted by Jirah

I’ve never once used SAM for EX/Savage , and have made myself perfectly clear how much I give less of a shat about meta and numbers and even still I think the sam changes are horrible.

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This ^

Prior to 6.1 I mained samurai for 2 simple reasons:
- OGCD variety/frequency.
- Minimal emphasis on tracking cooldowns.

I don't care at all about the meta - what's important to me is that the gameplay be fast, fun, and not demand that I track cooldowns like a hawk - my attention should be on the fight, not my hotbars.

Dragoon is cooldown intensive.
Reaper isn't fast (Enshroud doesn't count).
Monk isn't fast (Greased Lightning doesn't make up for effectively 0 OGCDs).
Ninja is cooldown intensive.
Samurai is no longer fun.

I could switch to ranged physical or a caster, but the list would look similar - the only job that is anywhere close to samurai in terms of fast, fun, and not being cooldown intensive is dancer, which I do enjoy, just not nearly as much as I used to enjoy samurai.

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Originally Posted by cjbeagle

This ^

Prior to 6.1 I mained samurai for 2 simple reasons:
- OGCD variety/frequency.
- Minimal emphasis on tracking cooldowns.

I don't care at all about the meta - what's important to me is that the gameplay be fast, fun, and not demand that I track cooldowns like a hawk - my attention should be on the fight, not my hotbars.

Dragoon is cooldown intensive.
Reaper isn't fast (Enshroud doesn't count).
Monk isn't fast (Greased Lightning doesn't make up for effectively 0 OGCDs).
Ninja is cooldown intensive.
Samurai is no longer fun.

I could switch to ranged physical or a caster, but the list would look similar - the only job that is anywhere close to samurai in terms of fast, fun, and not being cooldown intensive is dancer, which I do enjoy, just not nearly as much as I used to enjoy samurai.

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Agree with you. They just stole joy of playing this game. First they crushed monk, now samurai. I don't know who to play anymore..

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Originally Posted by cjbeagle

This ^

Prior to 6.1 I mained samurai for 2 simple reasons:
- OGCD variety/frequency.
- Minimal emphasis on tracking cooldowns.

I don't care at all about the meta - what's important to me is that the gameplay be fast, fun, and not demand that I track cooldowns like a hawk - my attention should be on the fight, not my hotbars.

Dragoon is cooldown intensive.
Reaper isn't fast (Enshroud doesn't count).
Monk isn't fast (Greased Lightning doesn't make up for effectively 0 OGCDs).
Ninja is cooldown intensive.
Samurai is no longer fun.

I could switch to ranged physical or a caster, but the list would look similar - the only job that is anywhere close to samurai in terms of fast, fun, and not being cooldown intensive is dancer, which I do enjoy, just not nearly as much as I used to enjoy samurai.

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This is very well said. Wholeheartedly agreed. +1

I have to admit. It got me back into playing my SAM more. Its been one of my mains since SB. While I miss Kaiten and it's weird getting used to it, changes like the point blank AoEs made the job feel alot more fluid for me.

Main reason I'm here though, is with there being autocrits on most of the main damage spikes, could that mean we might get more damage output benefit from stacking DH?

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Originally Posted by Avarant

I have to admit. It got me back into playing my SAM more. Its been one of my mains since SB. While I miss Kaiten and it's weird getting used to it, changes like the point blank AoEs made the job feel alot more fluid for me.

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Before the changes when it was a bit more difficult? I spammed dungeons purely because I wanted to not even cause I needed to. Now? It's made so braindead ontop of not having Kaiten that I have not touched a single Dungeon since the update. Tenka Goken change from Cone to Circular plus Kaiten removal made me quit Dungeons all together. I hate our AoE rotation now. A summary made by " cjbeagle " explains it pretty well.

6.0 pre-Fuko: ▲ O ▲ O [Kaiten]▲

6.0 post-Fuko: O O O O [Kaiten]▲

6.1 Kaiten Removal: O O O O O

^ it has become bland, boring, not engaging, requires less positional awareness, animation looks lazy and utterly braindead.

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

Before the changes when it was a bit more difficult? I spammed dungeons purely because I wanted to not even cause I needed to. Now? It's made so braindead ontop of not having Kaiten that I have not touched a single Dungeon since the update. Tenka Goken change from Cone to Circular plus Kaiten removal made me quit Dungeons all together. I hate our AoE rotation now. A summary made by " cjbeagle " explains it pretty well.

6.0 pre-Fuko: ▲ O ▲ O [Kaiten]▲

6.0 post-Fuko: O O O O [Kaiten]▲

6.1 Kaiten Removal: O O O O O

^ it has become bland, boring, not engaging, requires less positional awareness, animation looks lazy and utterly braindead.

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Let's not forget that it's extremely weak and you're better off using Hagakure to use kyuten instead unless you have a charge of tsubame-gaeshi, but also the biggest detriment to the change on SAM aoe is that you now have to eat enemy cleaves just to sneeze on the enemy for a paltry amount of damage.

I don't mean to say whoever thought that up is dumb, but I have to point out that an idea like that is dumb and should have had a bit more consideration.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I have a Lv.90 SAM. To reiterate.

Jobs within a given role should be balanced in terms of dps output, utility, etc. The 'complexity' argument will always fall flat because nobody wants to invest time into a job only to discover that it's ineffective at higher skill levels. So when you argue that your 'complex' job should be the unrivaled top dps, the solution is always going to be to make your job less 'complex' in order to ensure dps parity. This really is not rocket science.

I think that if you genuinely enjoyed Samurai's gameplay as it was, then the gameplay should be adjusted accordingly. You're really passionate about Kaiten? Great, let's bring it back.

But the instant that you argue that Kaiten made SAM more 'complex' and that, as a more 'complex' job SAM should be the unrivaled top dps, you're going to get no sympathy from anyone else. We've all invested time into our preferred jobs, so a bit of mutual respect is in order. Everyone wants to be rewarded for their efforts.

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I'm not denying that that argument exists out there. But I think you are referencing a minority of SAM players. A sliver of the populace... Effectively self serving people you would be able to find in any class.

Slightly more popular an excuse (with a little merit admittedly) is that SAM had a little bit more damage then the other DPS classes because it provided no utility to the rest of the group. It was not a utility class. Due to lacking this utility other classes have, SAM's primary focus on damage, was made a little bit higher. I feel like that argument is legitimate, but not something I'd die fighting for.


The key issue about damage in this past patch (at least for me) isn't a issue about in comparison to other classes. The key issue about damage for SAM in this last patch is our normal build up moves in comparison to our finishers. The homogenization of damage across our own moves (with the removal of kaiten) was what hurt by far the most. There is no more real burst anymore. SAM doesn't really have finishers anymore. They are effectively just the last moves of our chains. They certainly don't reflect the power (or feeling of reward) of hitting like an actual finisher.



I believe the OP is just a simple minded troll with a chip on his shoulder, just eager to gloat at others simply for enjoying a game they have been engaged with, likely due to some deep seated personal issues he is unable to recognize in himself...


Your argument however, is just so obscure and while I don't deny a thing, is likely a reference to a pointlessly small portion of the player base. I really hope SE doesn't design directed by a minute population that just happens to be noisy. I don't really think what you are insisting on really had any impact on why the changes took place.

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Originally Posted by Ayche

It is only the truth. On-demand +50% potency is going to limit any kind of weapon skill development.

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You do realize that kaiten was already limited to what moves it could be applied to, don't you?

not to mention that adjusting kaiten, or just disabling it for any new hypothetical move if a problem, would immediately nulify your current argument.

You seem to be making this argument from the position that the solution SE went with, was the only possible solution that could be applied to a future, hypothetical issue.


Do you really support robbing a class of its' enjoyment and identity for just that?

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Originally Posted by Ayche

Well, I have never felt a need to think about meeting the kenki for Kaiten since even most basic Yukikaze combo gets you the kenki for Kaiten since it is only 20 points. It is actually sometimes even hard to screw up,

It is correct that if they decided to buckle down and stick to current, even ShB SAM elements forever, it is possible to rearrange them in multiple ways to smooth out the damage. Like I can say that it could work, you could do that. Whether the values look right or feel right would be hard to judge, because would crit fishing Senei feel even worse due to its 2 minute timer or would feel weaker Kaiten+Midare itself feel bad? Like would it be worth it to keep all those actions in a watered down form? I don't know, you could bake in lot of conditional effects everywhere to keep it hard to solve.

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I don't understand of your ironic, completely self unaware posts...

You start by arguing in the defense of the change based completely off a future hypothetical conflict.
And then you dismiss counter arguments to your position, because the counter arguments are all hypothetical?


What on earth are you even trying to explain in here at this point??

I mean, are you just entirely missing the entire point of the outcry from the SAM player base? The entire point is that we enjoyed our past game play experience and that IF there actually is a issue SE is trying to tackle, that SE does so while keeping the the theme of the class of which was the very reason in the first place we chose to play the class.

Yes, hypothetically some time in the future, SE could make SAM fun to play in a entirely different direction. That isn't the point at all.

The point is we enjoyed how the class was playing, and if a fix actually is needed to it, that it should still be in the theme of the class we came to love...



I mean, you have been so all over the place and contradicting of your very own posts... I don't even know what you are trying to express anymore.


Yes SE has f'd up other classes in the past and has slowly (extremely slowly in some cases) started to make them enjoyable/relevant again. The entirety of the SAM community hope is however, to avoid a change to a entirely different play-style, avoid having our Class be a bench warming class for a entirety of a expansion, and to still have the option of which they originally found available and enjoyable to play, still in the game (as that was what was retaining the interest of many of us in the first place). We may not be able to have an effect on SE's hypocritical and deceptive dev process (considering they made so many claims about listening to their player base) in any way...

But we are invested in the game. We enjoyed our time before 6.1. We now enjoy our time in the game less after. It is simple as that.

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Originally Posted by cjbeagle

This ^

Prior to 6.1 I mained samurai for 2 simple reasons:
- OGCD variety/frequency.
- Minimal emphasis on tracking cooldowns.

I don't care at all about the meta - what's important to me is that the gameplay be fast, fun, and not demand that I track cooldowns like a hawk - my attention should be on the fight, not my hotbars.

Dragoon is cooldown intensive.
Reaper isn't fast (Enshroud doesn't count).
Monk isn't fast (Greased Lightning doesn't make up for effectively 0 OGCDs).
Ninja is cooldown intensive.
Samurai is no longer fun.

I could switch to ranged physical or a caster, but the list would look similar - the only job that is anywhere close to samurai in terms of fast, fun, and not being cooldown intensive is dancer, which I do enjoy, just not nearly as much as I used to enjoy samurai.

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SE trying real hard to get me to unsub. If they dont address these changes fast ill prob go back to only subbing during a big expansion.

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Originally Posted by WorldPeacElbow

SE trying real hard to get me to unsub. If they dont address these changes fast ill prob go back to only subbing during a big expansion.

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Them gutting samurai severely undermined my will to engage in PVE content at all - the only thing that's really holding my interest this point is Crystalline Conflict, and ironically, so far my favorite job for that content has been monk, which happens to have an OGCD that buffs the next weaponskill by 50%.