SAM changes - I don’t mind it

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Amusing how one of the most engaging jobs with one of the highest skill ceilings (BLM) has one of the lowest actions per minute.. more buttons does not mean more engaging..

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Everything has an outlier, cause a majority of those classes with low APM are not that engaging and have a fairly low skill ceiling.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Amusing how one of the most engaging jobs with one of the highest skill ceilings (BLM) has one of the lowest actions per minute.. more buttons does not mean more engaging..

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That entirely depends on the job and how they're built. Black Mage's core gameplay works with fewer buttons because it's essentially rotating through the same handful of spells. If you were to say, take away oGCDs from Dark Knight, it'd become incredibly boring as those oGCDs are all that separate it from being a 123 job that occasionally hits Bloodspiller. Furthermore, Casters, in general, have less APM due to casting.

In the case of Samurai, without Kaiten, the Kenki is rendered completely meaningless. You could delete it alongside Kaiten and just give Shinten a cooldown with three charges or something. Instead of expanding on the job gauge to make it feel connected, they're going in the opposite direction and making it pointless. Per for the course though considering several job gauges exist to look pretty and not offer much else.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

We should have options. If you feel overwhelmed then don't use that ability or use another job. I can't play BLM properly yet I don't applaud if they would dumb it down. And in a game where dumbing down is the norm now it is worrisome to say the least.

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Exactly!

This has been a major complaint I, and several others, have had since Shadowbringers. Take Bard, for example. The most beloved DPS in Stormblood. They removed all of its nuanced gameplay aspects largely to attract people who weren't interested in the job to begin with instead of catering towards its existing playerbase. Astro has suffered the same problem. The devs keep trying to coax players who aren't interested in x job by dumbing them down without considering how this impacts the enjoyment for those already playing said job.

We should have options. If you feel overwhelmed then don't use that ability or use another job. I can't play BLM properly yet I don't applaud if they would dumb it down. And in a game where dumbing down is the norm now it is worrisome to say the least.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Samurai's damage was only low at low. The subsequent buffs in 6.08 brought it back to being the strongest Melee and highest ranked speed kill job once again. It's single-handedly brought Dancer back into the meta. In other words, the job was perfectly fine. I suspect the only reason we're losing Kaiten is due to baby players not pressing it, thus their damage falls behind. Which is rather laughable when you consider inexperienced or outright bad players aren't going to be pressing their buttons properly anyway. At this point, it always seems like the change is an excuse for guaranteed crits to be a thing because "OMG BIG NUMBERS!!!!!"

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You basically just reworded my post. "Lowest common denominator", remember? You just rather shift the blame onto the playerbase, which I believe the dev team is trying to avoid.
And in my opinion, SAM was not fine. It was fine prior to EW with very few miniscule issues. Charges being given to Meikyo and Tsubame, and then giving them what is essentially a juiced up Goken as a cap skill with yet another mandatory follow up skill all feels horribly tacked on, and like they just had no idea what to give SAM.

You mention that SAM brought DNC back into the meta. This is somehow a good thing? That one job needs/relies on another to be made valid? That is a huge failure on the part of the devs who had stated that they want to avoid such synergies because of the forced comps, and/or exclusion of jobs from content. Engagement is tossed around these forums like a trendy buzzword, and I oft wonder if people even know what it means. It makes me wonder how many players find DNC or other jobs to be very engaging, only to have a door slammed in their face due to the meta.

You also mentioned that it is a lazy change that brings no benefit. However, I already mentioned the benefit it brings. You can choose to not accept or acknowledge that benefit, but it remains one all the same. As for the laziness and thoughtlessness, I am willing to wager that Kaiten has been on the chopping block for some time now. They just finally swung the axe

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Amusing how one of the most engaging jobs with one of the highest skill ceilings (BLM) has one of the lowest actions per minute.. more buttons does not mean more engaging..

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My statements on APM has nothing to do with engagement. I never stated higher APM = more engagement, and can and quite often be the exact opposite of that. The point is higher APM jobs lead to a greater margin for error. Arguments can be made about the number of skills that go into the APM e.g. SCH and SMN who have similar APMs, but the former will have about 70-90% of that using 2-3 skills, opposed to SMN which will be use much more. It doesn't change the fact that the more times you have to push a button, the more chances there are to press the wrong one.

Speaking of BLM in particular, I don't have a lot of experience playing the job, but do have enough to know that it is a unique job, and an exception to several rules within FFXIV such as having cast times longer than the GCD, greater penalty for movement/interruptions, and DPS being greatly facilitated when they have aware and cooperative party members (they don't needlessly compromise your position, healer knows you will soak avoidable but non-lethal damage, etc.). While I already did mention it was never my intention to imply higher APM means more engagement, even if it were BLM has other intangible factors at play.

The job is without question the most difficult that I've tried to pick up, and easily the one where hours of practice on a dummy just gets thrown right out the window in a true encounter. And that leads to my last point that difficulty =/= engagement either. Things like this is make me wonder if peeps even know what this word means. If you look it up, "difficulty" is nowhere to be found. Job design is but one aspect to what should be leading to your engagement with any particular encounter in FFXIV. A lot of things contribute to engagement including but not limited to the background, the music, level of difficulty, the job/role you're using, the job/role others are using, and your own level of awareness to the encounter (first time, still learning, cleaning up a bit on a certain mech, farmed to death).

Job difficulty can and will take away from the other aspects of the battle that you can and should be engaged in. Even to the point that you can't really enjoy the music, background, boss design because you're too damned focused on not screwing up.

I don't know. Perhaps it is just me that puts thought into these things?

edit: really long post lol. But wanted to address you both accordingly. Removed a question meant for someone else. My bad.

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Originally Posted by Vencio

Afternoon everyone,

I may be the only one who praises this approach & I truly hope they will do some for the rest of the others jobs as it is unnecessary to have cluttered abilities

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You wanna know whats a unnecessary cluttered ability? The Shoha's and Third Eye but they are left untouched.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

In the case of Samurai, without Kaiten, the Kenki is rendered completely meaningless. You could delete it alongside Kaiten and just give Shinten a cooldown with three charges or something. Instead of expanding on the job gauge to make it feel connected, they're going in the opposite direction and making it pointless. Per for the course though considering several job gauges exist to look pretty and not offer much else.

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In addition, we also can't forget that [another kenki spender] Seigan was also removed. Leaving four skills that utilize the gauge from six, with the stronger ST/AoE variant also being placed on a 120s CD. When I compare this to a job like SCH who actually has a useless gauge, the differences between the two should be enough to let you know that the kenki gauge still has a place on your UI. There aren't much situations for DPS players other than 'threat = Single Target, or Multiple Enemies, so additional spenders just adds skills and has you use math during combat. Favorable for some, shunned by others. It's just how it is, but the impact is not as great as you are making it out to be.

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Exactly!

This has been a major complaint I, and several others, have had since Shadowbringers. Take Bard, for example. The most beloved DPS in Stormblood. They removed all of its nuanced gameplay aspects largely to attract people who weren't interested in the job to begin with instead of catering towards its existing playerbase. Astro has suffered the same problem. The devs keep trying to coax players who aren't interested in x job by dumbing them down without considering how this impacts the enjoyment for those already playing said job.

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So getting more players interested in the job is a bad thing? I am quite sure it is not the dev's intention to deter veteran players from their favorite jobs. It still happens though. I played AST through HW and SB and hated the design enough to bench it. The changes brought about with ShB made me love the job. The changes to BRD also enticed me to give it a try, and I plan to max out now because it feels like expert level crafting but with combat added to it. I loved SAM in SB and ShB, and changes in EW has had it fall out of favor. So which is wrong, and which is right? What do you classify me as because I favor the changes to AST and BRD? Am I a bad player, and don't know diddly squat about how a job should play? See, there are a lot of implications being made here.

I won't pretend to know the answer. I've been on the receiving end of being disappointed with the direction of job design for some of the jobs in FFXIV as well. But again, I have also picked up other jobs I was previously not interested in, or lost interest in it based on changes to them. Is the same not also true with you?

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Originally Posted by OM3GA-Z3RO

You wanna know whats a unnecessary cluttered ability? The Shoha's and Third Eye but they are left untouched.

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Agreed. Without Seigan, Third Eye is not a good skill. Easily rectified by changing the skill into Seigan when the barrier is struck.

So... Shoha and Shoha II, which animation stays, and which one goes? I like them both, but who is in the know?

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Originally Posted by Vencio

Afternoon everyone,

Hope we’re all thrilled for next week’s 6.1!

I’ve noticed the trend in which most players are adamant about “Hissatu: Kaiten” being removed.

Personally I am far pleased at the Dev’s approach in updating certain job’s stats & leaning towards simplicity to have less abilities & feel more pragmatic, therefore helps to feel more immersive with the game & not feel as overwhelming by the number of abilities which hoards the hotbar.

I may be the only one who praises this approach & I truly hope they will do some for the rest of the others jobs as it is unnecessary to have cluttered abilities & instead remove some in turn to upgrade job’s stats without killing job identity.

SAM is my 2nd main & I am hyped for it.

Why are certain portion of players opposed to it?

Personally I don’t see it killing its job identity as SAM already has enough abilities as it is.

PS: Not trolling nor stirring up the flame. Just felt getting it out of my chest as I actually support this

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Agree I hate cluttered abilities so much, they should start doing this for all jobs

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

That entirely depends on the job and how they're built.

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Many of the Jobs were built fine. And even played well.

But the obsession with balance and homogenization has bust them all beyond any recognition..

A fair amount of players said years back screw balance make jobs unique and diversified. But then other players were afraid that if they did that there job might not be optimal in a piece of content..

But now years later more and more people are on the side of screw balance and homogenization make jobs unique and fun..

I'd kill for 4.0 astrologian or pld. 3.0 ninja. Shadewalker smokescreen goad. Actual utility tools that could be used to help tanks stay in dps stances..

Now it's just damage damage damage boring boring boring

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Many of the Jobs were built fine. And even played well.

But the obsession with balance and homogenization has bust them all beyond any recognition..

A fair amount of players said years back screw balance make jobs unique and diversified. But then other players were afraid that if they did that there job might not be optimal in a piece of content..

But now years later more and more people are on the side of screw balance and homogenization make jobs unique and fun..

I'd kill for 4.0 astrologian or pld. 3.0 ninja. Shadewalker smokescreen goad. Actual utility tools that could be used to help tanks stay in dps stances..

Now it's just damage damage damage boring boring boring

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Was it really unique and fun when you had 2 bards, a drg, and x as your dps composition though?

Like, I get it, diversity and uniqueness is fun, but at the expense of gameplay? pass.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Was it really unique and fun when you had 2 bards, a drg, and x as your dps composition though?

Like, I get it, diversity and uniqueness is fun, but at the expense of gameplay? pass.

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Nobody brought 2 bards... Did you play this game?

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

Nobody brought 2 bards... Did you play this game?

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Not in 2.x apparently. If they played they would never have brought up 2.0 Warrior as an excuse for changing a job.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

Nobody brought 2 bards... Did you play this game?

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You definitely didn't raid in 2.0 then. It was absolutely a thing lmao.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

You definitely didn't raid in 2.0 then. It was absolutely a thing lmao.

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I guess some players were just as bad back then as well.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Like, I get it, diversity and uniqueness is fun, but at the expense of gameplay? pass.

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Ah yes, thank god that we instead get less diversity and more homogenization, but also at the expense of gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

You basically just reworded my post. "Lowest common denominator", remember? You just rather shift the blame onto the playerbase, which I believe the dev team is trying to avoid.
And in my opinion, SAM was not fine. It was fine prior to EW with very few miniscule issues. Charges being given to Meikyo and Tsubame, and then giving them what is essentially a juiced up Goken as a cap skill with yet another mandatory follow up skill all feels horribly tacked on, and like they just had no idea what to give SAM.

You mention that SAM brought DNC back into the meta. This is somehow a good thing? That one job needs/relies on another to be made valid? That is a huge failure on the part of the devs who had stated that they want to avoid such synergies because of the forced comps, and/or exclusion of jobs from content. Engagement is tossed around these forums like a trendy buzzword, and I oft wonder if people even know what it means. It makes me wonder how many players find DNC or other jobs to be very engaging, only to have a door slammed in their face due to the meta.

You also mentioned that it is a lazy change that brings no benefit. However, I already mentioned the benefit it brings. You can choose to not accept or acknowledge that benefit, but it remains one all the same. As for the laziness and thoughtlessness, I am willing to wager that Kaiten has been on the chopping block for some time now. They just finally swung the axe.

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I did no such thing. Your original post cited Samurai's damage not being "up to par" which is simply inaccurate. It's the strongest DPS in the game. We'll have to disagree on the changes in EW as I found they vastly improved on the several annoyances from its ShB iteration. And naturally the devs want to avoid blaming the playerbase, however that is almost certainly why this change is happening despite overwhelming distain towards it. After all, good players weren't often mismanaging Kaiten. Just like they weren't letting Heavy Thrust or Straight Shot fall off; two maintenance buffs the devs outright said were removed due to casual players forgetting them.

Welcome to the optimization of Dancer. It will always be dependent on the performance of another job due to Dance Partner. They could entirely neuter Samurai come Monday and now the "meta" shifts to Black Mage/Monk. I don't disagree having two jobs synergize incredibly well together may not be ideal, but that's the nature of Dancer. Nevertheless, I brought it up to further illustrate Samurai is not in a weak state. As for the whole meta argument, the difference won't matter to people who aren't optimizing Savage but that's a whole different argument. No one is excluding Dancer nowadays. Machinist, on the other hand....

Except your argument hinges on a lower APM, which will not be achieved unless they also alter Kenki generation. Otherwise, you've essentially traded Kaiten for more Shinten spam. They specifically said "Action" bloat not "Button", suggesting they felt Samurai was too busy. The only benefit these changes have is dumbing the job down further because instead of having to momentarily think about your Kenki, all your big hits just auto-crit now.

Carrying off your second post, Seigan was removed for largely being useless. The damage component was so negligible you could ignore it and still perform at a top percentile. Those four skills could all be given cooldowns considering how limited their interaction with the gauge is. Senei/Guren, for example, only cost 25 Kenki now. You generate 30 by performing your 123. With the upcoming change, you'll have so much Keni overflow, you'll never lack enough to press Senei/Guren on CD. They could remove the Kenki requirement entirely and literally nothing changes.

Soon, all will have the healer treatment, one button spam with redundant oGCDs. And finally, they will remove that unique button and FFXIV will become a movie.

No matter how hard SE tries, they won’t ever bring parity to this player bases skill levels (or lack there of). This is just another useless change that won’t bridge the gap. Looking through this thread there’s incorrect 2.0 and a lot of ‘gray’ posters if you know what I mean and of course THOSE are the strongest supporters of removing buttons and homogenizing but unfortunately it’s still gonna be on you guys to step up even more with these soft kid glove moves. Bring back the complexities of HW and let the game filter itself.

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Originally Posted by Xuled

No matter how hard SE tries, they won’t ever bring parity to this player bases skill levels (or lack there of). This is just another useless change that won’t bridge the gap. Looking through this thread there’s incorrect 2.0 and a lot of ‘gray’ posters if you know what I mean and of course THOSE are the strongest supporters of removing buttons and homogenizing but unfortunately it’s still gonna be on you guys to step up even more with these soft kid glove moves. Bring back the complexities of HW and let the game filter itself.

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Some of the people I've seen saying not to remove skills are green/gray, and on some of the most simplified jobs, no less.

So cherry picking goes both ways lol

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

I did no such thing. Your original post cited Samurai's damage not being "up to par" which is simply inaccurate. It's the strongest DPS in the game. We'll have to disagree on the changes in EW as I found they vastly improved on the several annoyances from its ShB iteration. And naturally the devs want to avoid blaming the playerbase, however that is almost certainly why this change is happening despite overwhelming distain towards it. After all, good players weren't often mismanaging Kaiten. Just like they weren't letting Heavy Thrust or Straight Shot fall off; two maintenance buffs the devs outright said were removed due to casual players forgetting them.


Except your argument hinges on a lower APM, which will not be achieved unless they also alter Kenki generation. Otherwise, you've essentially traded Kaiten for more Shinten spam. They specifically said "Action" bloat not "Button", suggesting they felt Samurai was too busy. The only benefit these changes have is dumbing the job down further because instead of having to momentarily think about your Kenki, all your big hits just auto-crit now.

Carrying off your second post, Seigan was removed for largely being useless. The damage component was so negligible you could ignore it and still perform at a top percentile. Those four skills could all be given cooldowns considering how limited their interaction with the gauge is. Senei/Guren, for example, only cost 25 Kenki now. You generate 30 by performing your 123. With the upcoming change, you'll have so much Keni overflow, you'll never lack enough to press Senei/Guren on CD. They could remove the Kenki requirement entirely and literally nothing changes.

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SAM is not the strongest dps in the game. For p1s, the first sam to appear is 122nd place in terms of rdps. It's only strongest in adps, because of party buffs. And in terms of ndps, blm bears it out.

It was weak when introduced, and players panicking over potency made it fall even further behind as other jobs were buffed over it.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

SAM is not the strongest dps in the game. For p1s, the first sam to appear is 122nd place in terms of rdps. It's only strongest in adps, because of party buffs. And in terms of ndps, blm bears it out.

It was weak when introduced, and players panicking over potency made it fall even further behind as other jobs were buffed over it.

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Samurai is a selfish job. rDPS is largely irrelevant to use as a solo metric for it. You need to look at aDPS, rDPS and how much damage it does under raid buffs. The latter is especially important. This video explains it far better but he highlights the difference between Warrior and Dark Knight and why the latter is overwhelmingly better. Under raid buffs, Dark Knight contributes nearly 1,200 rDPS under buffs whereas Warrior only contributes 500. Hence the gap between them is far higher than the 350 difference the rDPS tab suggestions. Their respective aDPS shows a staggering 700 difference.

All this aside, if you look at the speed meta, Samurai completely dominates with a whooping 36.4% amongst Melee in P1S.

When factoring in everything above, Samurai is, indeed, the strongest DPS since 6.08. Black Mage is competitive with it as are Ninja and Dragoon.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Samurai is a selfish job. rDPS is largely irrelevant to use as a solo metric for it. You need to look at aDPS, rDPS and how much damage it does under raid buffs. The latter is especially important. This video explains it far better but he highlights the difference between Warrior and Dark Knight and why the latter is overwhelmingly better. Under raid buffs, Dark Knight contributes nearly 1,200 rDPS under buffs whereas Warrior only contributes 500. Hence the gap between them is far higher than the 350 difference the rDPS tab suggestions. Their respective aDPS shows a staggering 700 difference.

All this aside, if you look at the speed meta, Samurai completely dominates with a whooping 36.4% amongst Melee in P1S.

When factoring in everything above, Samurai is, indeed, the strongest DPS since 6.08. Black Mage is competitive with it as are Ninja and Dragoon.

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Then clearly things have changed because the last time I cared to check, rdps was what mattered for everyone, and selfish jobs were looked down on even if they brought high dps to the table.


Not that it ever stopped my static from playing what it wanted

Whoo as long as I can do my treasure maps while button mashing and praying I'll be fine! Sucks to all those raiders who liked job philosophy in HW, make way for the casual Limsa AFKer!

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Originally Posted by Kira_Yaeger

Whoo as long as I can do my treasure maps while button mashing and praying I'll be fine! Sucks to all those raiders who liked job philosophy in HW, make way for the casual Limsa AFKer!

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Most of the limsa afkers i see have ultimate weapons. In fact, most of the time I saw people afking in the past, it was showing off raid weapons, gear, etc...

Plus, HW raids basically broke the raid scene for a lot of players. I rarely meet anyone who wants to go back to that, outside the small group of hardcore raiders that seem to all post on the forums remembering things with heavily tinted glasses lol.


I've raided every expansion since the game released. I haven't cleared every tier, but much of that was static issues. I cleared every tier last expansion, and i cleared all of coil.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Most of the limsa afkers i see have ultimate weapons. In fact, most of the time I saw people afking in the past, it was showing off raid weapons, gear, etc...

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and they paid quite well for those, too ;)

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Amusing how one of the most engaging jobs with one of the highest skill ceilings (BLM) has one of the lowest actions per minute.. more buttons does not mean more engaging..

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That's mainly because all of Black Mage gameplay revolves around managing their gauge and their long cast times, with Leylines being the most important factor to when they can best cast consistently without moving much at all. Their movement is heavily restricted to super burst mobility windows (Triple cast, Aetherial Manipulation, Xenoglossy, Sharpcast proc, Thunder III proc, Paradox Ice Proc), but their entire rotation is flexible enough that they can always create those windows when necessary to best increase their damage. Basically, all their skills all contribute in some way to balancing their Job Gauge and mobility in combat, so there's never a "useless" skill (other than scathe). Even transpose, as much as it is a DPS loss to use, can still help contribute to managing the gauge to keep Polyglot generating for Foul or Xenoglossy. This feature of transpose also gets fleshed out as you can now also transpose and use Umbral Soul or transpose and use Paradox. Everything in the toolkit somehow builds up to becoming useful in some form of way, making it gratifying and highly skill based even if the APM and ideal job rotation is simplistic.

Thus, Black Mage gameplay is engaging and complex, even if their APM is much more lower than other jobs. There's always something useful in the toolkit.

Most jobs don't get that complex decision making at all because of their static rotation while doing mechanics. You just press whatever's on cooldown to do damage because the skill itself is not very innately interesting or has complex synergy to the toolkit. Instead, their APM is the flavor (Ninja in this case). People like the aspect of quickly attacking the enemy in an relentless flurry during their burst window (and partly why players miss assassination being a combo action from Dream within a Dream).

Samurai has a fairly decent and static rotation, but their gauge and buff management is what makes them fun to play. Kenki is one of their major skills in managing their DPS skill. It's not very complex, but it's still a decision they have to actively make, which gives the engagement. Otherwise, it would have just been the Shinten gauge and something they press on cooldown or save until a burst window. There's not as much thought involved.

Healers do not have any kind of decision making involved, but that's mainly due to how 90% of their toolkit is for healing and damage is scripted / binary (you either survive the attack or you don't) - so healers who look to create better ways to play end up just pressing their 1 damage skill for 80% of the time. That's the main issue with healers. They have nothing to keep them engaged.

APM is one of the flavors for engagement, but it's not the end-all solution as long as the toolkit is engaging. Black Mage is very much an outlier for that reason.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

I mean, you probably weren't here in 2.0 then.


And it is relavent. People keep acting like this is new. It's not. They've simplified and made changes to every job ever since the game came out.


Remember when gierskogul took 10 seconds off blood of the dragon? Man that was fun and engaging...

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Oh, I was here back in 2.0! While I vaguely remember things, I do remember Warrior only had a slightly difficult learning curve. Well, at least for myself. Just needed to read the tool tip and do some practice to properly memorize which thing did what.

The thing I've always thought to myself is that the devs need to let the players learn how each job functions and go with the ones they feel that best suits them. Not everyone is going to be ridiculously good at this game, but them coddling the player base like they have for years will not help improve those players struggling with certain jobs or the overall game better. It'll only make them worse. Last year they added a freaking east and very easy mode to instances! That's the average level of your playerbase and you think making things simpler will solve your problems!? smh...

Meh, that wasn't really bad. No different than how BLM functions right now with its umbral and Astral management. If you don't like managing what makes a job class tick, there's always another job right around the corner that'd better suit you and the playstyle you desire. :/

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Then clearly things have changed because the last time I cared to check, rdps was what mattered for everyone, and selfish jobs were looked down on even if they brought high dps to the table.


Not that it ever stopped my static from playing what it wanted

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Nah I don't think that has really changed. You think people that play this game can comprehend the difference between rDPS and aDPS?

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Plus, HW raids basically broke the raid scene for a lot of players. I rarely meet anyone who wants to go back to that, outside the small group of hardcore raiders that seem to all post on the forums remembering things with heavily tinted glasses lol.

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I said HW job philosophy. Minor adjustments to the raids and the jobs would have made them not only more accessible but also diverse and have a higher skill ceiling. Casuals could still clear eventually like they do now and more hardcore gamers could have more fun doing the content to its fullest potential.