6.1 Samurai

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Originally Posted by Kazimere

There is no management of kenki, and there hasn’t been for quite some time. Don’t even try to prop that up. It buffed weapon skillls, and the only ones worth buffing over using a shinten were the Iajutsue. Effectively just making the skill something you weaved in every 8th GCD, or for when you needed to bana.

It was a cool concept that ultimately failed to implement like it needed to, imo. All it’s really got going for it is that it’s got a cool animation.

I agree with the rest of your post.

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Uh, if you didn't pay attention in your rotation you could absolutely get into a scenario where you wouldn't have enough kenki to re-apply kaiten to higanbana. Just because there isn't a lot of management doesn't mean there eas none at all. Removing kaiten however does effectively remove kenki management completely.

I mean, how much attention needs to be paid? Every combo gives you enough for a kaiten. There is no management when that is the case.

I understand what you are saying, and I think that was the intended concept. It just didn’t pan out that way on implementation.

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Originally Posted by Kazimere

I mean, how much attention needs to be paid? Every combo gives you enough for a kaiten. There is no management when that is the case.

I understand what you are saying, and I think that was the intended concept. It just didn’t pan out that way on implementation.

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I still mess up sometimes when I'm not paying attention, and I played sam for 3+ years and have gotten good parses and such. Also kenki math is fun.

I've never posted on the forums before, but I registered today in the hopes of having the developers reconsider the changes they are going to make to Samurai in 6.1

I'll start with the removal of Kaiten which they announced their reason of getting rid of it was for "button bloat". If button bloat was truly the reason, then why didn't the development team decide to not consolidate the three other abilities such as Shoha/Shoha II, Guren/Senei, and Ikishoten/Ogi Namikiri. Consolidating any of those 3 would've helped with that issue with zero change in the gameplay and feel of Samurai. By removing kaiten, you're removing the bit of depth of kenki management there was that would keep the player engaged in the job. Now you can just zone out and disregard how much kenki you have for kaiten in your burst windows (even and odd) which is considerably more boring to me. The other part is the fantasy feel of the job. There is something rewarding about slowly building up sens, do a winding up/power up move into your big hitters. To me, it's a pretty iconic part of the job. I definitely feel like the negatives of removing kaiten far outweighs that of consolidating the other skills.

The second I'll talk about is the auto crits on Midares and Ogi Namikiri. I can understand that Samurai could feel like a feast or famine class but I think the danger of having auto crits is removing the synergy it has with certain raid buffs such as DRG's battle litany, SCH's chain stratgem, and DNC's devilment. If I remembered correctly, part of the reason why Square Enix pushed for 2 min windows on all class was for synergy across all jobs but this kind of goes against that philosophy as now Samurai doesn't synergize as well with the 3 previously mentioned job. Instead, maybe they could separate Midare into two separate hits (i.e. Ninja's Dream within a Dream) to help out with damage variance or shift some of the power from the big attacks into some of the smaller weaponskills like Gekko/Kasha (which are considerably still used in raid buffs a bit).

Anyways those are my thoughts. I do hope that development team listens to the feedback on the changes and offer a bit more explanation on their reasoning for those changes. Thanks.

Everyone is upset about them removing a button, but no one is thinking about how SAM won’t be let into PFs because they have an auto crit and SCH, DRG, DNC, and BRD won’t want to play with them just like they don’t want WAR to play with them uwu

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Originally Posted by EllieDaCat

Everyone is upset about them removing a button, but no one is thinking about how SAM won’t be let into PFs because they have an auto crit and SCH, DRG, DNC, and BRD won’t want to play with them just like they don’t want WAR to play with them uwu

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Well DNC doesn’t care about WAR. And also MCH with SCH and DRG.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

So maybe I am misreading this OP but it appears that the primary reason they want to keep this skill is because it is flashy and has a good sound effect, which is nice and all but not a reason to keep it.

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They already mention why it's bad from a gameplay standpoint, but keeping the skill because it plays well into the fantasy feel of the Samurai with its animation is an absolutely valid reason to keep it. People will absolutely pick up a class for the fantasy feel of the job instead of gameplay. As OP mentioned as well, the reason the development team removed the skill was for button bloat, which if button bloat was really the issue, then why didn't they address Shoha/Shoha II, Guren/Senei, and/or Ikishoten/Ogi Namikiri. I feel the negatives of removing kaiten outweigh the consolidation of those three set of skills.

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Originally Posted by Luin

Should we upgrade Shoha1 into Shoha2?

Should we combine Senei and Guren?

Should we combine Shinten and Kyuten?

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This bothers me on several levels. No. The game is already braindead enough in dungeons without having your AoE be the same thing as your ST. Stoppit. This is the sort of dumb thing a hardcore raider would say because 90 percent of the content they engage with are boss fights and the other 10 percent is spent rushing players through dungeons to grind dailies. If the way you play the game means that the ST/AoE distinction is "button bloat", just take them off your hotbars, you horribly unfun person.

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Originally Posted by Acece

I still mess up sometimes when I'm not paying attention, and I played sam for 3+ years and have gotten good parses and such. Also kenki math is fun.

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It's not often but it has happened before that I got overzealous with Shinten in Savage because I was paying too much attention to the mechanics and too little to my Kenki bar.

With that said I don't care so much about that or how difficult it is or whatever in this scenario, to me Kaiten is just fun to use that's my issue with the removal.
In the end of the day FFXIV has fairly static rotations, so when you remove a button from it then it makes it more monotonous and less engaging.
This is one of my primary concerns with this constant complaining from some people about '' button bloat ''.
Every time you remove a button you're adding monotony.

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Originally Posted by Kazimere

To each their own. 32 buttons is a lot, especially when half of them are just copies of ST versions in AoE format. Pushing a lot of buttons for the sake of pushing buttons isn’t particularly engaging. It’s tedious.

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Then use a separate hotbar for AoE, saying that it's 32 buttons is kinda misleading because most people are talking about single-target that is ultimately what actually matters the most.
If you have two hotbars then set hotbar three to AoE and then just click the arrow to swap over when you want to AoE if you think it's hard to keybind...

I count 16 single target skills and 7 AoE.
That's not button bloat imo...
Can we not try to turn this game into WoW please?

Edit: 7 unique AoE buttons that is, I am not including buttons that are used in single-target too because those will already be bound.

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Originally Posted by MoonMoon97

The second I'll talk about is the auto crits on Midares and Ogi Namikiri. I can understand that Samurai could feel like a feast or famine class but I think the danger of having auto crits is removing the synergy it has with certain raid buffs such as DRG's battle litany, SCH's chain stratgem, and DNC's devilment. If I remembered correctly, part of the reason why Square Enix pushed for 2 min windows on all class was for synergy across all jobs but this kind of goes against that philosophy as now Samurai doesn't synergize as well with the 3 previously mentioned job. Instead, maybe they could separate Midare into two separate hits (i.e. Ninja's Dream within a Dream) to help out with damage variance or shift some of the power from the big attacks into some of the smaller weaponskills like Gekko/Kasha (which are considerably still used in raid buffs a bit).

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This is also a genuine topic of concern and identifies a massive hole in their design philosophy. Other things need to change for this SAM change to even begin making sense. The JP forums are talking about this fact at length. I just hope that the developers elected to leave out raid buff changes until actual patch notes. And for anybody out there who has a strong opinion about crit RNG, it doesn't matter what your opinion is about crit RNG on the job - these changes just introduce a different, more anti-synergistic problem that WAR and MCH have had to deal with for a long time.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

So maybe I am misreading this OP but it appears that the primary reason they want to keep this skill is because it is flashy and has a good sound effect, which is nice and all but not a reason to keep it.

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In short, yes, you are misreading it. The animation is cool, don't get me wrong, but the main purpose behind Kaiten is as a skill-expresser. It's not a major skill-expresser, but there is a big difference between no Kaiten usage, good Kaiten usage and optimum Kaiten usage. Ignore the people saying that you just use it right before an Iaijutsu; while that's true a lot of the time it isn't always true, especially in high-end raiding of savage/EX/ultimate stuff, where you might need to hold your Iaijutsu for 1-2 GCD's before you use Kaiten due to needing to avoid a mechanic.

It's one of those things that takes some work to get used too but once you've done it enough (which is really what the 52-62 leveling process teaches) then it becomes second nature. Failing it means a loss of damage while doing it correctly means a big gain. It's not "hard" per se to do it correctly but it *is* hard to do it correctly 100% of the time. That's the beauty of Kaiten. It's a skill that allowed you to express mastery of a fight, resource management and rotation all in one. With this change Kenki is all but entirely de-valued. As other have said, just grant us four charges of Shinten/Kyuten on a 15s CD and remove Kenki outright. Remove the Kenki costs for everything else (because they all have CD's that limit their use anyway) and just be done with that aspect of SAM. The job will be dumbed down to all hell but we already have one foot in the door so why not go whole hog.

Removing Kaiten feels like a 7.0 change, right now we don't have anything to replace it so uhm yeah... no ty

+1 to the ideas about Shoha 2 replacing Shoha 1 and merging both of the Hissatu abilities into 1 CD.
That cuts off 2 buttons we use far less than Kaiten (and with far less involved thought) so please bring back Kaiten!

Shinten, Kyoten, Senei, Gurein, Shoha 1 and 2 could all be combined to be a bigger ST hit with fall off. There is no reason for them to be separate buttons.

There's not really much I can say that hasn't already been said. So I'll just leave this post as a show of support. Please FF14 developers don't do these changes.

You’re just gonna replace kaiten with a shinten. I don’t see the problem. You’re acting as if there was a thought process to it. There never was. Gotta Iaijutus? Kaiten right before it. Don’t? Shinten.

You’re just wanting a button for the sake of having a button.

You’re literally just saying that you’re gonna have to ho,d your window sometimes. Everyone has to do that and strategies are formed around it. Not to mention, the current design is to have mechanics that require movement happening right as these windows come up, so….

If the devs have any sense they’ll listen to the people in this forum, and the Japanese players who are also reportedly complaining on not removing kaiten, people who actually like this job and are passionate about it, rather than the one or two people defending the changes who don’t seem to understand what makes the job such a popular and enjoyable pick.

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Originally Posted by Kazimere

You’re just gonna replace kaiten with a shinten. I don’t see the problem. You’re acting as if there was a thought process to it. There never was. Gotta Iaijutus? Kaiten right before it. Don’t? Shinten.

You’re just wanting a button for the sake of having a button.

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There's no thought process to Shinten either, you just hit it as soon as you get 25 gauge. Why not remove that and Kyuten? There's no thought process to Shoha, you just hit it as soon as you get 3 stacks of Meditation. Why not remove Shoha and Shoha II? There's no thought process to Guren and Senei, you just hit them as soon as they're off CD and you have 25 gauge. Why not remove them?

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Originally Posted by Kazimere

You’re just gonna replace kaiten with a shinten. I don’t see the problem. You’re acting as if there was a thought process to it. There never was. Gotta Iaijutus? Kaiten right before it. Don’t? Shinten.

You’re just wanting a button for the sake of having a button.

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Lets get real, if you use any abilities as SAM and don't calculate complex integrals or very hard real integrals where you have to go into complex numbers zone and use limits then there is no thought process of playing SAM. Why have any buttons if you can auto attack.

Kaiten adds a thought process to kenki management, otherwise without it we'll just spam Shinten between every odd gcd and forget about it like Fan Dance III on Dancer.
(If you press Fan Dance 1 or 2 immediately press 3 after to double weave the ability even if it didn't proc, it's just muscle memory and offers no downsides to not getting into the habit)
YOU NEED enough Kenki to buff your necessary weaponskills, as I've been in places where I've spent too much on Shinten and didn't have enough to spend on a Kaiten for my Iaijutsu, suffering as a result of not thinking enough about my usage.
That's already more thought than choosing between Shoha 1 or 2, or either Hissatu ability because there is or is not more than 1 target.

You could even turn off your kenki bar all together as the Hissatu abilities get enough kenki for use from Ishikoten, an abilitiy that already lines up and can kind of be used in the same gcd if you double weave it
Please keep Kaiten! Otherwise this change could literally mean I don't have to keep track of kenki on screeen anymore LOL (aside from shoha being attached to the bar but the icon for shoha would just light up at 3 charges ANYWAY)

Nice attempt at comparison, but we both know that’s not the case. While there isn’t much thought to those abilities either, at least they do something.

The argument is that Samurai has button bloat. Of all the abilities to remove, Kaiten is one that does nothing other than buff a weapon skill, of which the only weapon skills that it is used for are IAI skills. It makes complete sense for them to remove the ability and roll the potency into the skills that it is solely used for.

You can think it requires thought all you want. I disagree. It’s flashy. That’s about it.

If they change the meta the PFers will follow. You’re right that it won’t really affect anything, but that hasn’t stopped the ignorant masses who only look at rDPS yet.

I’m so tired of hearing this argument. Every combo chain gives you enough kenki for a Kaiten. Every. single. one. Maybe stop using kenki as soon as you hear the sound of an ability being activated.

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Originally Posted by Kazimere

Nice attempt at comparison, but we both know that’s not the case. While there isn’t much thought to those abilities either, at least they do something.

The argument is that Samurai has button bloat. Of all the abilities to remove, Kaiten is one that does nothing other than buff a weapon skill, of which the only weapon skills that it is used for are IAI skills. It makes complete sense for them to remove the ability and roll the potency into the skills that it is solely used for.

You can think it requires thought all you want. I disagree. It’s flashy. That’s about it.

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What do they do? Let you spend Kenki? Kaiten was already doing that. Give you more oGCDs to hit? Kaiten did that too. You could remove any of the skills I mentioned just like Kaiten and nothing would change with SAM's rotation.

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Originally Posted by KakoSol

There's not really much I can say that hasn't already been said. So I'll just leave this post as a show of support. Please FF14 developers don't do these changes.

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Same. Please don't.

Had to make an account to post, please dont go through with these changes.

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Originally Posted by baklava151

What do they do? Let you spend Kenki? Kaiten was already doing that. Give you more oGCDs to hit? Kaiten did that too. You could remove any of the skills I mentioned just like Kaiten and nothing would change with SAM's rotation.

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Don’t play coy. I’ve already gone over this. I’m not doing it again I get it, you want a flashy animation because it’s “flavor.” All you got is that.

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Originally Posted by Kazimere

Don’t play coy. I’ve already gone over this. I’m not doing it again I get it, you want a flashy animation because it’s “flavor.” All you got is that.

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You're being kind of cringe bro :(

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Don’t play coy. I’ve already gone over this. I’m not doing it again I get it, you want a flashy animation because it’s “flavor.” All you got is that.

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You're just willfully ignoring points made in this post now and spamming a minority opinion thusfar.

Something tells me you are going to go over this again... like you have for 5+ comments now. Thanks for the post engagement, anyway.

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Originally Posted by SeaJae

You're just willfully ignoring points made in this post now and spamming a minority opinion thusfar.

Something tells me you are going to go over this again... like you have for 5+ comments now. Thanks for the post engagement, anyway.

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I’ve ignored no points. I’ve made my point. Don’t worry, I’m not going to go over anything again. People want to keep Kaiten cause they like the animation, ultimately. All the other arguments are weak. They’re just hoping to whine about it loud enough so that the devs change their mind.

How do you know if you are the majority? Some people screeching on the forums? That says nothing. Good try at appealing to the masses.

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Originally Posted by Edweena

You're being kind of cringe bro :(

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Don’t care…bro

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Originally Posted by Kazimere

I’ve ignored no points. I’ve made my point. Don’t worry, I’m not going to go over anything again. People want to keep Kaiten cause they like the animation, ultimately. All the other arguments are weak. They’re just hoping to whine about it loud enough so that the devs change their mind.

How do you know if you are the majority? Some people screeching on the forums? That says nothing. Good try at appealing to the masses.

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Repeating your argument ad nauseam to every post you don't agree with while ignoring the fact people enjoy things differently than you do doesn't mean you are right, either.

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Originally Posted by SeaJae

Repeating your argument ad nauseam to every post you don't agree with while ignoring the fact people enjoy things differently than you do doesn't mean you are right, either.

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Providing weak arguments isn’t going to change the devs mind either. They want to snip an ability or two, and Kaiten is a prime candidate for snipping.

+1 for not removing Kaiten

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Originally Posted by Kazimere

Providing weak arguments isn’t going to change the devs mind either. They want to snip an ability or two, and Kaiten is a prime candidate for snipping.

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All of the arguments have been valid and have included obvious suggestions like merging ogi namakiri into ishikoten as a better way to deal with bloat. People don't want to keep kaiten just for the flair. There's also the simple fun factor of using it to buff your attacks and whether you agree or not, it does bring in some kenki management. Taking it away just turns kenki into more shinten spamming which is just.....meh.

Senei would serve as a better candidate for deletion. Guren worked just fine in its place in Stormblood so Senei's addition is entirely superfluous.

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Originally Posted by Kazimere

Don’t play coy. I’ve already gone over this. I’m not doing it again I get it, you want a flashy animation because it’s “flavor.” All you got is that.

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It's more interesting and feels way more impactful being able to spend Kenki to buff your strongest attacks rather than just doing direct damage with Shinten. I just don't see what it is about Kaiten in particular that it needs to be the one on the chopping block, especially when others have pointed out plenty of other ways to reduce SAM's button bloat without cutting abilities.

Can we make the title of this thread so it reflects out concern and possibly make a Megathread? Since people are starting to voice their opinion but it.'s gonna be more meaningful for the devs if they see our love for the skill/animation of Kaiten. If you're a true SAM main, you know you love that sound and that twirl. Like every one else already said here, Shoha II and Guren needs to be rid off first. Those are bad design and poster child of button bloat. The fact is a lot of SAM love pressing Kaiten more than people pressing Shoha II or Guren.

Thought I should reply here and echo the majority of thoughts and opinions in this thread. I saw this in the XIV subreddit and do know that devs lurk there as well as here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...nship/i30oois/

The philosophy behind removing Kaiten does not make sense considering the devs have designed fights around synergizing raid buffs and managing said buff windows during difficult mechanics such as in the current Savage tier. As others have mentioned, there are two other prime candidates for consolidation in regards to combating button bloat: Shoha II into Shoha and Guren into Senei.

Such changes would have little to no impact on the class' core mechanic and identity in comparison to Kaiten, nor would they create anti-synergy with classes such as DNC's Devilment. Please devs, do not go through with these changes, or at the very least revert them in a hotfix once 6.1 drops.

And for those doubting that the majority of SAM players are upset about this, there are similar sentiments all throughout The Balance Discord as well as here and the subreddit. Just two cents from a SAM main.

I also would like to voice my opinion that Kaiten is a very fun skill to use and there are several other, more elegant, ways to deal with button bloat.

Don't just take iconic skills away. That's not cool.