Please grow the MMO part of the game. End game is lousy.

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Originally Posted by Skiros

Those aren't put up by me. If you hover over those tags you can see the names of the people who put them up.

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=O Today I Learned.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I doubt it, given that many of the same problems are beginning to manifest here as well.

One of the biggest criticisms of World of Warcraft by many was the lack of consistency in the story and the bizarre decisions to turn even well liked characters into raid and dungeon bosses. To say nothing of how poorly the decision to resort to weird and contrived time travel as the justification for an entire expansion. Tying everything to 'Old Gods' was also criticised...as well as various other factors, such as Sylvanas and Jaina being pushed as victims when they decided to indulge in a bit of genocide. It's particularly revolting in Jaina's case given that her target was the Blood Elves - a race that was not only the most popular pick for Horde characters but was only a part of the Horde in the first place due to the Alliance already trying to wipe them out through no fault of their own.

So, bringing the discussion back to FFXIV...much of the above is now present in FFXIV as well. The weird attempts to excuse genocide when Venat is responsible for it, the contrived time travel, everything being linked to the Ancients to the point of considerable character agency being lost in the process and so on.

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I know this thread isnt about that topic but I dont agree with that whole statement about this game's story going as haywire as WoW's awful plot. Are we just going to ignore the actual villains and how they committed genocide 7 times for the sake of bringing back a dead world? Are we just going to say its ok to deny the lives of the sundered their right to exist?

Lets not forget the whole reason this situation started was because of Hermes's irresponsible decision to decide the fate of the world and the universe based on the conclusions of an emotionally distressed bird about the meaning of life. If anything we should all point the finger at him. What Venat did was a gamble and it wasnt like she didnt suffer any consequences for her sundering. Every strife, every war, every extinguished life and the multiple rejoinings the Ascians made brought pain to her as she was connected to all life within the shards. But she knew that it was necessary for suffering to happen for us to appreciate the meaning of life and find the answer to Meteion's question, which is why you constantly listen to the words "Hear, Feel, Think" hinting the concept of dynamis. Nobody is saying what she did was 100% correct which is why Yoshi-P addressed in the live letter with his statement that "she really was an Ancient after all" for as the Ancients were akin to gods and in their hubris and power would leave the inevitable demise of their own making (as seen with the perfect society in the Dead Ends wanting to end their existence due to not knowing suffering).

Anyway this is how I saw it with Endwalker's story and I for one think its nice and beautiful.

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Originally Posted by Equitable_Remedy

The great thing about the internet is that allows people to be both obviously wrong and extremely confident at the same time.

Telling the company that makes the FINAL FANTASY series that no one plays single-player games is the hottest of takes.

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You may want to re-read his post.

Single player holdouts (=players intimidated by it being an MMO) also willing to pay a sub fee for a newly rebranded 'single player' game; yes, I'd wager those are pretty rare.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

I know this thread isnt about that topic but I dont agree with that whole statement about this game's story going as haywire as WoW's awful plot. Are we just going to ignore the actual villains and how they committed genocide 7 times for the sake of bringing back a dead world? Are we just going to say its ok to deny the lives of the sundered their right to exist?

Lets not forget the whole reason this situation started was because of Hermes's irresponsible decision to decide the fate of the world and the universe based on the conclusions of an emotionally distressed bird about the meaning of life. If anything we should all point the finger at him. What Venat did was a gamble and it wasnt like she didnt suffer any consequences for her sundering. Every strife, every war, every extinguished life and the multiple rejoinings the Ascians made brought pain to her as she was connected to all life within the shards. But she knew that it was necessary for suffering to happen for us to appreciate the meaning of life and find the answer to Meteion's question, which is why you constantly listen to the words "Hear, Feel, Think" hinting the concept of dynamis. Nobody is saying what she did was 100% correct which is why Yoshi-P addressed in the live letter with his statement that "she really was an Ancient after all" for as the Ancients were akin to gods and in their hubris and power would leave the inevitable demise of their own making (as seen with the perfect society in the Dead Ends wanting to end their existence due to not knowing suffering).

Anyway this is how I saw it with Endwalker's story and I for one think its nice and beautiful.

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The recent Q&A during the Live Letter revealed that Venat, herself, is ultimately responsible for the Rejoinings. She knew full well that if Emet, Elidibus and Lahabrea survived the Sundering then they would fulfil their duty as members of the Convocation and seek to do everything possible to restore their people and civilisation to what it once was.

Which is something they can't be easily faulted for, given that Venat sat around with foreknowledge of the Final Days and allowed it to happen and then inflicted the Sundering upon the Ancients in a way that left them entirely unaware of why Venat chose to do it in the first place.

I'll be honest - I don't particularly care if Venat was 'sad' over what happened since she is the individual ultimately to blame for the torment of both the Unsundered and the Sundered is...Venat.

I'm also gay, so the whole 'mOMmY sO pReTtY aNd SaD' thing doesn't do much for me, I'm afraid.

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Originally Posted by Illmaeran

It's hard to make a full assessment based only on what was said in the LL. My take is that given the trend for people to play MMOs as an increasingly "Alone Among Many" experience rather than the early generation experience of needing to have people to progress, I wouldn't be surprised that they've decided beefing up the Trust system is a sort of future-proofing. When it comes to social interaction in general content, I hardly experience any; even when I'm in an all EN party. The only time I get any real interaction with non FC members is in RP or general "hang out" locations while waiting for queues and such. This has created a situation where, at least for me, DF groups are essentially glorified Trusts that get things done faster and earn more tomestones.

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Agree with this... personally think an MMO should be facilitating interaction between people as much as possible, I don't think people should have to go out of their way to seek out social interaction in an online game at all times. Things like everyone just sitting and squatting in samey Discords (once you've been in one FC discord you've been in them all pretty much with little exception) doesn't really help either, not that SE can do anything for that.
All I really want from this game since the beginning was an actual continuous world that you are rewarded for exploring, games like GW(2) and Archeage (but without the 'swipe credit card to become invincible as 30 people wail on you') and not a series of disconnected big boxes. It makes sense for 'special' areas like the Moon to be its own thing, but I'd like to ride my chocobo from Limsa to Doma to Thavnair without loading screens in between. Engine limitation, perhaps?

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Originally Posted by Lauront

You may want to re-read his post.

Single player holdouts (=players intimidated by it being an MMO) also willing to pay a sub fee for a newly rebranded 'single player' game; yes, I'd wager those are pretty rare.

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I'll take that wager and raise you 1,000gil.

Your wager is based on personal assumptions and speculation without a shred of proof.

And talking about assumption;
All the computers are going to crash on Y2K, didn't happen.
Life was going to end with the end of the Mayan calendar, it didn't.

Why don't we just wait and see.

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Originally Posted by Mapleine

Single player hold outs will NEVER play this game, regardless of what you think you can do. The mere fact that this game connects to the internet makes it a no go for most of those people, as an older player who knows scores of these exact people, take it from me.

Please grow the MMO part of the game. It's been eight years since ARR and our end game is still the exact same as launch. Your game is literally emptying out right now because of low content.

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<---Am single player

<---Plays game


This is never going to be an endgame epeen raider based hardcore game. WoW is over there if you want that garbage. You can also go grind endgame Lost Ark for elveventy-three thousand hours if you want that.

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Originally Posted by Skyborne

Agree with this... personally think an MMO should be facilitating interaction between people as much as possible, I don't think people should have to go out of their way to seek out social interaction in an online game at all times. Things like everyone just sitting and squatting in samey Discords (once you've been in one FC discord you've been in them all pretty much with little exception) doesn't really help either, not that SE can do anything for that.
All I really want from this game since the beginning was an actual continuous world that you are rewarded for exploring, games like GW(2) and Archeage (but without the 'swipe credit card to become invincible as 30 people wail on you') and not a series of disconnected big boxes. It makes sense for 'special' areas like the Moon to be its own thing, but I'd like to ride my chocobo from Limsa to Doma to Thavnair without loading screens in between. Engine limitation, perhaps?

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Well, even though each zone is just a box "connected" to each other, I think what FFXIV really struggle is to make them feel part of the world. I mean, unless you are fate grinding(Which let us be honest, it isn't the most enticing of contents) or doing the MSQ, you don't have much of a reason to be out in the world, it just feels... Kinda dead. Most of my playtime right now is sitting in Ul'dah waiting for queue to pop to level a new job. There are train hunts, but likewise, train hunts makes most of the world bosses kinda trivial.

They have stuck to the same tired old formula for 5 expansions it isn't going to change at all. Things aren't going to change. If anything things are going to be like FFXI where it'll be more difficult to find groups for dungeons since you can farm for gear more easily by running trusts and avoiding queues.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

I know this thread isnt about that topic but I dont agree with that whole statement about this game's story going as haywire as WoW's awful plot. Are we just going to ignore the actual villains and how they committed genocide 7 times for the sake of bringing back a dead world? Are we just going to say its ok to deny the lives of the sundered their right to exist?

Lets not forget the whole reason this situation started was because of Hermes's irresponsible decision to decide the fate of the world and the universe based on the conclusions of an emotionally distressed bird about the meaning of life. If anything we should all point the finger at him. What Venat did was a gamble and it wasnt like she didnt suffer any consequences for her sundering. Every strife, every war, every extinguished life and the multiple rejoinings the Ascians made brought pain to her as she was connected to all life within the shards. But she knew that it was necessary for suffering to happen for us to appreciate the meaning of life and find the answer to Meteion's question, which is why you constantly listen to the words "Hear, Feel, Think" hinting the concept of dynamis. Nobody is saying what she did was 100% correct which is why Yoshi-P addressed in the live letter with his statement that "she really was an Ancient after all" for as the Ancients were akin to gods and in their hubris and power would leave the inevitable demise of their own making (as seen with the perfect society in the Dead Ends wanting to end their existence due to not knowing suffering).

Anyway this is how I saw it with Endwalker's story and I for one think its nice and beautiful.

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Yeah, it's just those darn ancients... not like the sundered would ever do that!

That's not really what he was getting at and even Venat herself denied the notion that they did not know suffering when she was addressing the strawman in that fast-forward scene. What they're getting at is the possible fate of the star if they continued the pursuit of perfection from there on, assuming she told them nothing about what was motivating her concerns.

I also call BS on his point about her "really being an ancient". Yes, they're not humans, but is he forgetting all the sundered antagonists, like Thordan, Ilberd or Yotsuyu (and that is just in recent memory and just to name a few) who tried to inflict their own viewpoint on mankind? Or that the ancients valued debate and the notion of autonomy?

I thought the story was one of the most meandering messes I've seen in a game in recent times, and certainly not a beautiful one, but each to their own.

Anyway, not the main topic of this so I'll shut up about it.

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Originally Posted by Tyjacon

I'll take that wager and raise you 1,000gil.

Your wager is based on personal assumptions and speculation without a shred of proof.

And talking about assumption;
All the computers are going to crash on Y2K, didn't happen.
Life was going to end with the end of the Mayan calendar, it didn't.

Why don't we just wait and see.

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You seem particularly worked up over the fact that people think he's got this wrong over a misunderstanding of the market segment he's targeting. Yes, we might be wrong. And so might he be. Again, SE is not infallible and they have some pretty big disasters to their name; FF14 itself has some content disasters to its name. In the end, we're going to just wait and see anyway.

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Originally Posted by Conundrum

<---Am single player

<---Plays game


This is never going to be an endgame epeen raider based hardcore game. WoW is over there if you want that garbage. You can also go grind endgame Lost Ark for elveventy-three thousand hours if you want that.

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Good for you. But you're the exception, not the norm. Players who are against paying a sub fee for a single game are not going to jump into XIV beyond Heavensward no matter how solo friendly it gets. Specially when the solo exp in XIV is very watered down and undertuned by jrpg standards.

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Originally Posted by Tyjacon

All the computers are going to crash on Y2K, didn't happen.

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I've met one of the two men who discovered the Y2K problem in the first place. He lived next door to my parents when they lived in Texas and I got to sit and talk to him for awhile. This was a VERY real problem. They had to go before congress to talk about the issue, explain what the problem was and what would happen if nothing was done.

Thankfully it was taken seriously and through a lot of hard work and a lot of money spent across the world the crisis was averted for the most part. But for some reason this idea that people just made a big deal over nothing is incredibly incorrect. It was making that big deal that kept it from BEING a big deal when the day came.

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Originally Posted by Mapleine

Single player hold outs will NEVER play this game, regardless of what you think you can do. The mere fact that this game connects to the internet makes it a no go for most of those people, as an older player who knows scores of these exact people, take it from me.

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I actually agree with you here. It's going to be very hard to convince people that an MMO is not an MMO.

But maybe it will convince some people with the right marketing. We already got the slogan for it "alone or with friends". Some few people might consider it.

If they updated it so the whole MSQ was playable solo, my wife might actually try the game again. She wasn't a fan of running dungeons with others due to anxiety, but she did enjoy the idea of being in a world with other people.

"You can, but you don't have to." is a pretty powerful statement for someone who's on the fence about playing a [traditionally social] game like an MMO.

With so many electronic entertainment options moving to a subscription model, I wouldn't be surprised if people didn't even blink at the idea of paying a sub to play the game. I know I get waaaay more than my sub fee's worth of entertainment time from the game than I do the video streaming services I subscribe to.

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Originally Posted by Hysorn

Well, even though each zone is just a box "connected" to each other, I think what FFXIV really struggle is to make them feel part of the world. I mean, unless you are fate grinding(Which let us be honest, it isn't the most enticing of contents) or doing the MSQ, you don't have much of a reason to be out in the world, it just feels... Kinda dead. Most of my playtime right now is sitting in Ul'dah waiting for queue to pop to level a new job. There are train hunts, but likewise, train hunts makes most of the world bosses kinda trivial.

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True. FATEs aren't the most exciting, though I think the new rewards in the form of the bicolor gemstones were a step in the right direction. Hunts? The server travel kind of killed it for me, plus the discord stuff, now it's just a huge zerg blob of people melting everything in 0.2 seconds before flying off at the command of a 'conductor'. Sightseeing? Neat, though not too much reward, aside from the ARR minion. Maps? Can be good money, though interest in it tapers off.

I enjoy grouping with people immensely but I am also glad that the Trust system exists. Primarily because I am old and inflicted with Arthritis and Parkinsons. I can do dungeons reasonably well but certainly not well enough for some hardcores out there. The Trust system allows me to learn the fights (I always watch where the NPCs go) without being yelled at.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

The recent Q&A during the Live Letter revealed that Venat, herself, is ultimately responsible for the Rejoinings. She knew full well that if Emet, Elidibus and Lahabrea survived the Sundering then they would fulfil their duty as members of the Convocation and seek to do everything possible to restore their people and civilisation to what it once was.

Which is something they can't be easily faulted for, given that Venat sat around with foreknowledge of the Final Days and allowed it to happen and then inflicted the Sundering upon the Ancients in a way that left them entirely unaware of why Venat chose to do it in the first place.

I'll be honest - I don't particularly care if Venat was 'sad' over what happened since she is the individual ultimately to blame for the torment of both the Unsundered and the Sundered is...Venat.

I'm also gay, so the whole 'mOMmY sO pReTtY aNd SaD' thing doesn't do much for me, I'm afraid.

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Did you miss the part in which Venat realises that due to the convergence that she must carry the burden of knowledge, we brought to her , for ever knowing that she cannot interfere with the first final days as all that happens after it will lead our character to to her so that she can create become Hydalen to stop the ceaseless enthrallment of Zodairks will and his domination to go un molested

If she were to stop the effect of Dynamis and the final days 1.0 then unsundered wouldn't exist therefore nor would we , therefore we wouldn't go back in time in the convergence to warn of the coming doom therefore nobody would have known the cause as she would have had her memory wiped in that room also and she could have perished or the group she took lead of to create a Hydalen may not have happened and Hydalen would not have been there to keep Zodiark in check which would mean he proceeds to enthral every sentient being on Etheirys as his will demands .


Its a weird end to it all but the time conjunction is what they chose to tell , and its easy to miss points . Im still not totally clear but I agree with the person you replied to and as well as some of your points about the whole saga . The real issue is that it was such a deep complex story it need an entire expansion worth of Acians only but we got HW and SB thrown in and made the entire thing a delayed mess ( probably done so they could actually write the saga finale )

Should spend less time appealing to those who do not wish to play the game they have created, and more time appealing to those who do.

Too many investors become caught up in the making of things addicting or chasing trends then force developers to implement some pretty darn stoopid changes. Will believe my uncle as he has been around for the death of many mmos and brace for the losing of something we all enjoy playing together.

Reminds this lala over here of Dark Souls. No one is playing Dark Souls whilst thinking "I wish I was actually playing something else that looked like Dark Souls." They wish to play more Dark Souls. Fromsoft appears to understand this concept still which is why we are getting more Dark Souls in Elden Ring. Do not make it grindy. Do not make it a non mmo. Make it fun and engaging then the community shall stay.

Or perhaps continue making shallow, hollow, watered down experience as I sit here knowing I am correct yet wishing I was not.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

The recent Q&A during the Live Letter revealed that Venat, herself, is ultimately responsible for the Rejoinings. She knew full well that if Emet, Elidibus and Lahabrea survived the Sundering then they would fulfil their duty as members of the Convocation and seek to do everything possible to restore their people and civilisation to what it once was.

Which is something they can't be easily faulted for, given that Venat sat around with foreknowledge of the Final Days and allowed it to happen and then inflicted the Sundering upon the Ancients in a way that left them entirely unaware of why Venat chose to do it in the first place.

I'll be honest - I don't particularly care if Venat was 'sad' over what happened since she is the individual ultimately to blame for the torment of both the Unsundered and the Sundered is...Venat.

I'm also gay, so the whole 'mOMmY sO pReTtY aNd SaD' thing doesn't do much for me, I'm afraid.

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Dont know how being "gay" has anything to do with connecting with fictional characters, because news flash to you, I'm gay too.

Anyway I also like to counter argue Venat having knowledge of the Final Days and not telling anybody by bringing up some important factors:

A. She couldnt non-chalantly bring up the Meteia and the Final Days to all the Amauortines without risking potential premature world wide panic that would have the star fall into despair before they could anything about it.
B. Even if she told everyone, the Amaurotines are an extremely stubborn people who wont believe her without hard proof of the Final Days occurring. Remember they werent able to sense the signs of it due to their lack of sensing dynamis. Also we had a clear example of one such important Ancient denying those claims via Emet-Selch who refused to believe the events that happened with him and their world in the future when the WoL explained the situation.
C. She did managed to gather allies and other people to believe her about the Final Days and were the opposing group behind the summoning of Zodiark. Them knowing that Zodiark wouldnt serve as their best permanent solution to fight against Meteions Song of Oblivion.

And again, who was behind all of this!? Hermes!
Why are we shifting so much of the blame to Venat alone when she was the one who had to clean up his mess in the first place!?
Everyone is to blame for the sundering. If Venat didnt sunder the world, then Zodiark would've continued to sacrifice more of its people for a losing battle because he wouldnt even have been able to deal with Meteion when she was ready to end the universe in the future. It was lose-lose situation for everyone since no matter what the Ancients were done

I agree but maybe not let them devolve into turning endgame into a grindfest, which is easy for them to default to.

I think they want to lean on the single-player aspect because the game is largely made up of casual players who are really into the story/lore. There's plenty of people who RP and there's nothing really wrong with that. And since FFXIV is the really the only MMO that is heavily story-based with a large franchise behind it, I think that the devs can experiment a bit, especially since the main story has concluded.

I just have this feeling that SE is forgetting that WoW players left their game to begin with to experience a game with a similar structure without the incompetency of the dev team. While I can sit here and drag the FFXIV team, they at the very least try to meet the community halfway whereas Blizzard has been a mess both scandals and lack of community input.

I think them alluding to Mythic-like dungeons and bringing back Deep Dungeons is their way of adding to the MMO aspect. I really hope they do this "Criterion" dungeon justice because lots of people are clamoring for difficult dungeon content rather than the same ol' Savage runs that largely consist of trials across a tier. My thought is that it'll be similar to Deep Dungeons without the independent scaling system.

I think that developing Trusts is fine because it helps the burden of newer players being able to queue without waiting too long and gives another grind for unlocking Trust outfits.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

snip

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I think you’re forgetting the part where despite Emet not believing us, he still needed to investigate our claims due to his duty of the star, this implies he’d do no different for Venat were she to approach him. She wouldn’t need to announce it globally at first, she was friends with Emet and Hythlo, two very important people in the ancient world whose names carry a lot of weight. She is a previous Azem. Her people opposed Zodiark yet her entire plan hinged upon 1.)Zodiark’s creation, 2)Elidibus surviving the sundering 3.)The rejoinings.

The reason people don’t focus so much on Hermes as much as they do Venat i believe, is because the story portrays her as some Herois. She herself says she did wrong things yes, but the overall narrative paints a different light and that’s what leaves people in a sour mood. It would be the equivalent of if at the end of shadowbringers we got an Emet minion that called him a hero. People would no doubt be calling that out. As far as the continues sacrifices go, there’s literally nothing that indicates that. Had venat told them the truth, they most likely could have figured something out. We know they were capable of manipulating dynamis, and able to create entities that could manipulate it. It wasn’t a lose lose situation, she contradicted her own claims and gave up hope on her people and instead placed everything in the hands of a single individual.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Dont know how being "gay" has anything to do with connecting with fictional characters, because news flash to you, I'm gay too.

Anyway I also like to counter argue Venat having knowledge of the Final Days and not telling anybody by bringing up some important factors:

A. She couldnt non-chalantly bring up the Meteia and the Final Days to all the Amauortines without risking potential premature world wide panic that would have the star fall into despair before they could anything about it.
B. Even if she told everyone, the Amaurotines are an extremely stubborn people who wont believe her without hard proof of the Final Days occurring. Remember they werent able to sense the signs of it due to their lack of sensing dynamis. Also we had a clear example of one such important Ancient denying those claims via Emet-Selch who refused to believe the events that happened with him and their world in the future when the WoL explained the situation.
C. She did managed to gather allies and other people to believe her about the Final Days and were the opposing group behind the summoning of Zodiark. Them knowing that Zodiark wouldnt serve as their best permanent solution to fight against Meteions Song of Oblivion.

And again, who was behind all of this!? Hermes!
Why are we shifting so much of the blame to Venat alone when she was the one who had to clean up his mess in the first place!?
Everyone is to blame for the sundering. If Venat didnt sunder the world, then Zodiark would've continued to sacrifice more of its people for a losing battle because he wouldnt even have been able to deal with Meteion when she was ready to end the universe in the future. It was lose-lose situation for everyone since no matter what the Ancients were done

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The whole world building in EW was just not well fleshed out. The Hermes-Meteion arc should have honestly gotten its own expansion. Endwalker felt way too rushed, even if I loved it. I like it despite its severe flaws. I think if it wasn't so rushed there would have been enough character building over 6.x for Venat, Fandaniel, etc., along with foreshadowing of Meteion, in such a way that Venat's pain feels more believable.

I do feel Venat's pain, but I had to stretch my imagination somewhat to reach there, to imagine what wasn't told in the story but could be reasonably implied. I can thus see why people felt Venat's motivations were unconvincing.

From what they said, it sounded like they intend to give more option to do content aimed at several players by yourself if you want to, not starting to develop content aimed only to be done solo.
If that's the case I don't see how it is a bad thing. If there's so little people wanting to do stuff solo then it's not like it'll change anything for the people that still want to do it with other players. People that want to play with others will still be able to and the estimated minority that don't want to deal with people whinning at each other left and right will have an option to do so.
It's a win/win.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I can't help but look at the impressive heights that WoW achieved during Wrath of the Lich King which is widely considered to be the game's golden era. Blizzard's attempts to chase a different set of demographics to those that brought such success failed and the game consistently began bleeding players over time as a consequence.

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I think Yoshi P needs to take note here. He has cited WoW as an inspiration for FFXIV, but is he willing to take note of the mistakes made in that game? I'm not against the trust system, but I think it's a mistake diverting what seems to be a substantial amount of resources to bolster solo play instead of using those resources on improving multiplayer aspects. It seems like a desperate attempt at appealing to a certain demographic at the cost of the dominant one. This is a rookie mistake and it will damage the game.

This is not a solo game and it never has been. If people wanted to play bot simulator they wouldn't be playing FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by Imoye

I think Yoshi P needs to take note here. He has cited WoW as an inspiration for FFXIV, but is he willing to take note of the mistakes made in that game? I'm not against the trust system, but I think it's a mistake diverting what seems to be a substantial amount of resources to bolster solo play instead of using those resources on improving multiplayer aspects. It seems like a desperate attempt at appealing to a certain demographic at the cost of the dominant one. This is a rookie mistake and it will damage the game.

This is not a solo game and it never has been. If people wanted to play bot simulator they wouldn't be playing FFXIV.

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For some reason reddit didn't agree with me today when I speculated on what can happen next if they get such players here. It's quite odd to target FF franchise players that never played 11 or 14 because it's online/MMO. Aurum Vale won't be on trust so when solo players will want their GC rank up or other + quest there they will have to play with others. 90% likely will be fine or just carryed but the 10% will start moaning and demanding that their way of playing should be the one true and correct and everyone else is a toxic elitist. No job stone will be the least of problems in the roulette then.

And with ever increasing level range IMHO people will be less and less likely to start at level 1 so their surveys will show what WoW did - so they will make expansion packs with boosts and after that squish levels :P Just to force some specific demographics to play the game. Not sure why they want to target a MMO to specific demographics and not whoever could possibly play a MMO or just "online RPG alike game with catgirls".

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

Good for you. But you're the exception, not the norm. Players who are against paying a sub fee for a single game are not going to jump into XIV beyond Heavensward no matter how solo friendly it gets. Specially when the solo exp in XIV is very watered down and undertuned by jrpg standards.

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FFXIV's increasing population numbers disagrees with you "moar raids" types.

People will always tell me this game's population is mostly casual players that play for the final fantasy part of the game and while that is partly true... its not really the majority. I've met way too many wow refugees before the exodus and the exodus just doubled the population on the game (hyperbole kinda but it really made the game hit higher numbers than ever before)... so the benefit of doubt is totally warranted.

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Originally Posted by Minarisweet

People will always tell me this game's population is mostly casual players that play for the final fantasy part of the game and while that is partly true... its not really the majority. I've met way too many wow refugees before the exodus and the exodus just doubled the population on the game (hyperbole kinda but it really made the game hit higher numbers than ever before)... so the benefit of doubt is totally warranted.

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Wow destroyed itself catering to them.

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Originally Posted by Conundrum

FFXIV's increasing population numbers disagrees with you "moar raids" types.

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You're gonna be malding twice as hard when the next savage census drops and you realize this tier has been the most popular in the games history by a large margin. It's almost like a lot of the incoming players came from communities where more challenging content is really popular or something.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

And what does the NA playerbase want? To me, it seems they want RP features, looking at PF on aether lol.

I thought people got sick of wow being a mindless grind fest, don't want xivs endgame turning into that.

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Are you really looking at the PF? Because over 70% of it is savage pugs.

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Originally Posted by AeredonXI

Are you really looking at the PF? Because over 70% of it is savage pugs.

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After my raid group broke up, I tried doing Party Finder for about two weeks. Doing P1S and P2S is okay, but trying to reclear P3S is a nightmare. Most groups cannot do the adds phase even in Duty Complete groups. If we manage to do it, I have to blow my entire re-opener on adds. Many of the groups you see in Party Finder just aren't good enough to clear/reclear the content.

Finding a group at this point in the raid tier is difficult and I'm settling on casual statics. Overall it's a frustrating experience as it makes finding a group for ultimate content exceedingly difficult. It's a lot of spending time not playing the game.

I do a lot solo in this game. I personally am so happy that they are making easier for players like me. I've played since ARR and have been solo leveling everything lately. Currently at 80 on the way to 90 for all ! ^_^ I don't always have time to do everything on prime game times and this way I don't have for wait for all my friends to find time to play together but I still have the option as well. It helps create a better life/game balance. All I'm saying is that it works for me. I want them to push for innovation and different ideas like they have.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

The reason people don’t focus so much on Hermes as much as they do Venat i believe, is because the story portrays her as some Herois. She herself says she did wrong things yes, but the overall narrative paints a different light and that’s what leaves people in a sour mood. It would be the equivalent of if at the end of shadowbringers we got an Emet minion that called him a hero. People would no doubt be calling that out. As far as the continues sacrifices go, there’s literally nothing that indicates that. Had venat told them the truth, they most likely could have figured something out. We know they were capable of manipulating dynamis, and able to create entities that could manipulate it. It wasn’t a lose lose situation, she contradicted her own claims and gave up hope on her people and instead placed everything in the hands of a single individual.

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We have people in this community already shouting "Emet-Selch did nothing wrong" and they're swooned all over him because of his burden and charm. At least I see this view on him more often and they choose to ignore all the terrible things he's done. And like I said, Venat did confided the truth to some people, which is where the whole debate between summoning Zodiark came from in the first place. Now I realize we dont know the full details that occurred during that exchange but Im pretty sure it involved Venat and her group trying to tell the Convocation of XIV that Zodiark wouldnt be the best solution due to Meteion but they still summoned him anyway. I'll admit this on itself is just another assumption but its how I would think it would've played out. Also Emet-Selch was more prone to investigating the Final Days because of the WoL being there. The WoL time traveling to the past and having a connection to Venat was his bread crumb that maybe something was definitely off, otherwise Emet-Selch being the prideful stubborn individual that he is who wouldve scoffed at such claims if it were anyone else. If he still retained his memories from the Hermes and Meteion reveal he no doubt would've continued to try to convince the others of the truth behind the Final Days but he was robbed of such knowledge so he just resumed being his usual self that everything was alright nothing to see here.

I seriously dont get where people's knickers get into a twist about the whole thing, its almost as if they desperately wanted to have Venat be this manipulative evil villian all along because that just tends to be the case in most jrpg stories with gods and what not but they pulled the twist that her decisions werent so black and white as we were led to believe.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

You're gonna be malding twice as hard when the next savage census drops and you realize this tier has been the most popular in the games history by a large margin. It's almost like a lot of the incoming players came from communities where more challenging content is really popular or something.

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Stop using Asmon/Twitch lingo first.

Then embrace the reality that the game is getting more solo friendly and not less. It's never going to cater to your epeen.

Seriously, all you Twitch cultist can think you're going to come in and shove everyone else out and take over...but you aren't. Us damned dirty casuals own this game and you're just a flash in the pan until your streamer tells you what you should play next.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

And what does the NA playerbase want? To me, it seems they want RP features, looking at PF on aether lol.

I thought people got sick of wow being a mindless grind fest, don't want xivs endgame turning into that.

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There is a difference between a grind fest, and being able to log in and do something. Other than running a roulette for tome stones, and savage there really isn't that much to do as a long time player.

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Originally Posted by Snorky

Please provide proof of your claim, because as far as I can see this company has enough proof for them to invest in more solo content. A company as large as SE would not invest in this aspect of the game if there were not a call for it. What are you worried about? Why force your preferred play style on anyone? This game was never about raiders I think you may have confused this game with a game that only caters to raiders. Just because there are a bunch of other players on your screen doesn't mean you have to interact with all of them. It's like going to a club and thinking you have to say hi to every single person you pass. It's a rather ridiculous notion and I am a older player and guess what I only talk to my FC and mostly do content by myself. I do two fights from the duty roulette just for the tombstones other wise I do trusts. I don't get why people are so controlling of others game play.

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The recent live letter they are essentially making the trust system for all MSQ content. Thus making this game pretty much have a single player mode. Now no one said anything about catering to raiders, you always seem to bring this up in your posts for reasons beyond me. This is a subscription based MMO and should provide more content for online cooperative play than it would single player play. This is the point of an MMO AKA massive multiplayer online game. That being said, I do not believe it is smart to expect more players to want to play FFXIV because of a single player mode. No one is going to want to play a subscription based singe player game. If people choose to be anti social, that is fine, but this behaviour should not reflect the design philosophy of the game.

What this thread tells me is that 95% of people here have no idea what was going on over in WoW.

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Originally Posted by Imoye

This is not a solo game and it never has been. If people wanted to play bot simulator they wouldn't be playing FFXIV.

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The entire game, no. The MSQ? Absolutely. The MSQ has its roots firmly in the single player Final Fantasy experience. There are instances of forced grouping but the majority of it is solo, even forcing you out of a group if you're running with friends to do solo duties. This is the part of the game they're strengthening with retroactive application of the Trust system. They haven't given any hint that we'd see Trusts outside that.

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Originally Posted by Conundrum

Stop using Asmon/Twitch lingo first.

Then embrace the reality that the game is getting more solo friendly and not less. It's never going to cater to your epeen.

Seriously, all you Twitch cultist can think you're going to come in and shove everyone else out and take over...but you aren't. Us damned dirty casuals own this game and you're just a flash in the pan until your streamer tells you what you should play next.

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I actually liked this game because the end game was challenging and the classes were complicated and unique. As the game has gone on I actually think the game is getting to be pretty terrible. I typically do the MSQ and can't really find the will to play the game much beyond that because it is too casual. It is not fun, most of the classes have been over simplified to the point it is a struggle to find one to enjoy. Most of the content is just an easier repeat of older content. Yet people defend this, why I have no idea. No one is asking that we make everything extremely challenging content, but people are asking for a game that is not brain dead, a game with content outside of spamming one dungeon for a weekly currency cap and interesting class design.

I honestly give this game probably about 1 or 2 more expansions before it falls apart, Yoshi's 10 year plan may not even make it 5 years with the direction they are going currently. Only players left for them to design the game for will be ERP players. I never thought I would view the game in way I do now 10 years ago, but this game has really gone down hill since Storm Blood.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

I actually liked this game because the end game was challenging and the classes were complicated and unique. As the game has gone on I actually think the game is getting to be pretty terrible. I typically do the MSQ and can't really find the will to play the game much beyond that because it is too casual. It is not fun, most of the classes have been over simplified to the point it is a struggle to find one to enjoy. Most of the content is just an easier repeat of older content. Yet people defend this, why I have no idea. No one is asking that we make everything extremely challenging content, but people are asking for a game that is not brain dead, a game with content outside of spamming one dungeon for a weekly currency cap and interesting class design.

I honestly give this game probably about 1 or 2 more expansions before it falls apart, Yoshi's 10 year plan may not even make it 5 years with the direction they are going currently. Only players left for them to design the game for will be ERP players. I never thought I would view the game in way I do now 10 years ago, but this game has really gone down hill since Storm Blood.

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We defend it because it's the only MMO that doesn't cater to the "moar raids" crowd and focuses on the casual and even solo crowd.

And we will loudly fight to keep that from changing.

The history of MMOs is an endless procession of games made like you all want..."hard" and "endgame" games made by first gen MMO players who are now devs...and demanded by a small, but exceedingly loud group of first gen MMO players entering middle age and trying to recapture the feeling EverQuest gave them as a kid. They all failed because that isn't what the current gaming population wants. Even your vaunted WoW was from that time and would fail now. IMHO WoW only succeeded because it was coasting on Blizzards golden name and riding on a popular franchises coat tails, not because it was that great.