Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

SE gutting gameplay and refusing add anything mildly engaging back? Never!

Maybe you'll be able to buy new healer DPS skills in NFT form.

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Originally Posted by MsQi

you should take it as a compliment, but you prefer to see maliciousness.

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Holy shit, the quote in your post is beautiful. Modern gamers and game devs take note.

All this said, I mean after reading the entire thread, I can see Yoshi P's statement made a lot of people mad. But he isn't wrong. If you feel unchallenged, on ANY role, go to do more challenging content. It's that simple.

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

Holy shit, the quote in your post is beautiful. Modern gamers and game devs take note.

All this said, I mean after reading the entire thread, I can see Yoshi P's statement made a lot of people mad. But he isn't wrong. If you feel unchallenged, on ANY role, go to do more challenging content. It's that simple.

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It’s the fact about engagement. Healers don’t feel engaging in any content, his solution is to do Ultimate then. He’s basically admitting that all the other forms of content aren’t engaging for healers, instead of addressing the problem itself, he’s scapegoating, as he always does.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

This is effectively what the lead designer of this game told Healers in the latest live letter.

Consider if he had said that about your role for a second and how you would feel.

Forget the leveling experience, it doesn't matter.

Forget dungeons up to 90, they don't matter.

Forget normal raids, EX's, and Savage, they don't matter.

If you want your job to be engaging, play Ultimate, the hardest content in the game that only a few percentage of actual players do.

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ye its a really bad take by him. but then take a look at the part where he want the game to be more and more and more like a SOLO RPG. so if you go heal bots it be a bit more hard for you :)

Also, I feel like a lot of posters in this thread likely play mostly with statics or friends and as a result, are out of touch with the general player base. Not the devs. The OP has a forum signature that pretty much says this, which is ironic. Just being on these forums almost automatically puts you at a higher level than most players who rarely know they even exist.

Almost every day in my daily roulettes, I STILL encounter healers who dont even want to DPS as things are RIGHT NOW...and this thread clamors for MORE challenge...

so Yoshi P has the data and has the right path going forward here, I believe.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Learned how to not overheal? Congratulations! That's great of you to improve! Now then...

How would you feel the first time you find out that as a HEALER whose job is supposed to heal actually spend more than half of the time in their general contents casting damaging spells instead of healing? I am not even exaggerating there. "Half of the time" is very lenient because at that point said healers must've been overhealing by large amount or largely doing nothing aside twitching their thumbs until damage happens to heal. Personally? I immediately embrace the "Green DPS meme" identity, because that's what the numbers really tells us. They never lie.

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Im sorry but Im not in that same mindset as you. When I play a healer in this game, I go into the mindset that my goal is to keep the party alive, not to just be an extra DPS. Yes I contribute to dealing damage when allowed but most of my time is spent on patching up the MT during mob pulls or mitigating damage during raids and bosses. Thats all I expect for a "healer" to do.

Again I feel like we've grown too jaded and complacent over the green dps meme and that healing is nothing but a 3rd dps job when that wasnt its intention at all. You grow to not like healing anymore then OK FINE! go play another job, healing is just not for you. Healers arent designed to have to juggle between dps rotations and keeping healing on top. The whole point of the holy trinity is to cater to those 3 core play styles. Tanks are for people who want to lead and be up front, dps are there for those who want to focus on dealing damage and healers are for those who care more about supporting.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

This is effectively what the lead designer of this game told Healers in the latest live letter.

Consider if he had said that about your role for a second and how you would feel.

Forget the leveling experience, it doesn't matter.

Forget dungeons up to 90, they don't matter.

Forget normal raids, EX's, and Savage, they don't matter.

If you want your job to be engaging, play Ultimate, the hardest content in the game that only a few percentage of actual players do.

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I know that the internet is supposed to be an endless outrage machine, but c'mon...

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Speak for ya'll selves, I still get nervous having to heal in content, just because of the nature of healing alone. I think the issue they see if healers get more damage spells for rotations then healers in this game would start to focus more on DPS'ing rather than healing which just....negates the purpose of having a healer in the holy trinity the system was made for. I think we've grown too complacent with the idea that "healers are a dps" job when its in their job description to heal not to deal damage.

This is an extremely BASED opinion on my part though because I'm a controller user andy and having to add more buttons for full on damage rotations alongside your meaty healer toolkit will just overload the cross-bar hotbar setup into a complicated mess.

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What holy trinity? Tanks can heal themselves AND the party now. DPS have healing tools built into their toolkit to contribute to healing. Some jobs that aren't healers even got more tools to help with mitigation this expansion. What about healers? Got some additional skills in the DPS rotation while everyone gets some healing or mitigation tools? Nope. None of that.

I want to see exactly - how many more people will enjoy tanking if they removed the 1-2-3 rotation, replaced it to 1 single target attack, 1 AoE, and 1 long range attack and give tanks only more mitigation skills like rampart every expansion. No Crit Fell Cleave, No Primal Rend, No Confiteor, No Blade of Faith, No Blade of Truth, No Blade of Valor, No Bloodspiller, No Flood of Shadow, No Shadowbringer, No Double Down, No Hypervelocity, No Continuation, No Gnashing Fang Combo.

GNB will now do Keen Edge on every attack from Lv 1 onwards, have it upgraded to Brutal Shell at lv 54, Solid Barrel at lv 64, Burst Strike at Lv 72, and Hypervelocity at Lv 82. They get Demon Slice at lv 10, and it upgrades into Demon Slaughter at lv 82. As a "DPS" tank like "DPS" healer Sage, you can also press Sonic Break OR Bow Shock at lv 62. You also get 2 charges of Camouflage, 2 charges of Nebula, and 2 charges of Heart of Stone/Heart of Corundum though to help mitigate damage!

DRK will now do Hard Slash on every attack from Lv 1 onwards, have it upgraded to Siphon Strike at lv 54, Soul Eater at lv 64, Carve and Spit at Lv 72, Bloodspiller at 82. Oh, for AoE, your Unleash is learned at Lv 10. It auto upgrades to Stalwart Soul at lv 82 rather than 72. You get 2 charges of Shadow Wall, 2 charges of Dark Mind, 2 charges of Abyssal Drain, 2 charges of Dark Missionary (that also shields the party with a potency of 500), 3 charges of Oblation. To facilitate the ease of tanking, you no longer have to worry about MP on Flood of Shadow and Edge of Shadow, because they'll be removed. Instead, you'll get Salted Earth at 62 and Salt and Darkness at 90!

PLD will now do Fast Blade on every attack from Lv 1 onwards, have it upgraded to Riot Blade at lv 18, Rage of Halone at lv 30, Spirits Within at 54, Goring Blade at 64, Royal Authority at 72, Atonement at 82. Your single target attack will always generate MP. For AoE, they get prominence at Lv 10, and it upgrades to Eclipse at 82. You get Sentinel, Divine Veil, and Intervention on a lower cooldown with 2 charges. Holy Sheltron still exists, but instead of generating 5 gauge on every auto attack, you naturally generate 50 gauge every 25 seconds in combat. Oh, and Holy Circle is learned at 62, but now on a 2 charge system at lv 90. This way, it doesn't affect your MP to spend solely on Clemency, which will now be an ability and instant cast.

WAR will now do heavy swing at Lv 1 onwards, have it upgraded to Maim at lv 18, Storm's Path at Lv 30, Storm's Eye at 54, Inner Beast at 64, Fell Cleave at 72, Inner Chaos at 82. For AoE, Overpower is learned at Lv 10 and it auto upgrades to Steel Cyclone at 82. Inner Release is a nice tank ability, except now you don't crit or direct hit because those don't do anything to tanking. Instead, you mitigate an additional 20% with all your already strong mitigations! Don't worry though, because at 80, you'll unlock Upheaval whenever you use Inner Release, or use Oregeny at 90!

You feel that your damage (rotation) is lacking? No, that must mean you think your AGGRO will be affected! No worries, now your NATURAL AGGRO GENERATION will be 20x instead of 10x! No fear of losing aggro. Isn't that great as a TANK? Now you can actually take ALL your time to make sure you PROPERLY POSITION The enemies in case it's too DIFFICULT to spare EXTRA energy on it! EVEN WHEN YOU DON'T NEED TO. SO YOU CAN IMMEDIATELY DO IT AT A MOMENT'S NOTICE.

That's basically healers, except you replace "AGGRO" with "HEALING", "NATURAL AGGRO GENERATION" with "TOTAL HEALING POWER", and "PROPERLY POSITION" with "PROPERLY STARE AT THE HP BARS".
If that sounds jaded, that's because healers basically dealt with this for multiple years. If the focus for healers was the same as tanks, it wouldn't be so bad. However, they basically implied that there are only 2 healers: beginner healers and ultimate-level healer raiders. No in-between. No 'average level healer that isn't amazing, but at least understands the core functions of their toolkit and have been DPSing often because tanks can keep their HP afloat with only a couple of additional heals on their part'. THAT's the big problem with the current healer design. The best of healers can DPS with 90%+ downtime. The worst of healers cannot because they use Cure I / Diagnosis / Physick / Benefic and it eats away at their MP. Where is the huge disparity gap from 0% to 90%? What about a decent player with 60% downtime? Just spam their single offensive button for over half the fight?

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Im sorry but Im not in that same mindset as you. When I play a healer in this game, I go into the mindset that my goal is to keep the party alive, not to just be an extra DPS. Yes I contribute to dealing damage when allowed but most of my time is spent on patching up the MT during mob pulls or mitigating damage during raids and bosses. Thats all I expect for a "healer" to do.

Again I feel like we've grown too jaded and complacent over the green dps meme and that healing is nothing but a 3rd dps job when that wasnt its intention at all. You grow to not like healing anymore then OK FINE! go play another job, healing is just not for you. Healers arent designed to have to juggle between dps rotations and keeping healing on top. The whole point of the holy trinity is to cater to those 3 core play styles. Tanks are for people who want to lead and be up front, dps are there for those who want to focus on dealing damage and healers are for those who care more about supporting.

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That be a reasonable answer if healing requirements were significant.

Yes, some players mess up and you're there to pick them up, janitor style, from the floor.
You can heal booboos most of the time, but if they get hit in the first place its already their fault. You pick up their mistakes so it mostly depends on who you're playing with. No mistakes? No healinh role for you back to spamming your 1 button rotation. Plenty of mistakes? No amount of healing will save them, worse off they might just wipe the group.

Healing has very little actual value, and GCD healing even less value.

That should tell you what is wrong with the role.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

Maybe you'll be able to buy new healer DPS skills in NFT form.

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The sad part is that I perked up a little and thought "heeey" at the prospect of a potential uplift in the skill ceiling.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Im sorry but Im not in that same mindset as you. When I play a healer in this game, I go into the mindset that my goal is to keep the party alive, not to just be an extra DPS. Yes I contribute to dealing damage when allowed but most of my time is spent on patching up the MT during mob pulls or mitigating damage during raids and bosses. Thats all I expect for a "healer" to do.

Again I feel like we've grown too jaded and complacent over the green dps meme and that healing is nothing but a 3rd dps job when that wasnt its intention at all. You grow to not like healing anymore then OK FINE! go play another job, healing is just not for you. Healers arent designed to have to juggle between dps rotations and keeping healing on top. The whole point of the holy trinity is to cater to those 3 core play styles. Tanks are for people who want to lead and be up front, dps are there for those who want to focus on dealing damage and healers are for those who care more about supporting.

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That would be good reason to fall back onto if we really need to heal that much... except we don't. I even mentioned it specifically in the post that you decided to only read the first half and cut the 2nd half away for whatever reason, which was as follow:

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

We can heal. We should heal, but the damage intake is not up there. What could we possibly be doing when we've healed all that's needed to be healed? This has been debated for so many, many, many, MANY times in the past. Raise the damage intake and we'll only upset players from both spectrums. Inexperienced will get discouraged because they just can't clear content when all they're capable of are casting Medica II and/or fishing for Freecure procs. Vets will get frustrated because the burden will too often fall to their hands to 'carry' the inexperienced. I'm sure this is not a situation everybody wish to experience.

In turn, they asks for more something to do during downtime. Asking for more buttons to press doesn't always mean specifically an actual dps rotation, that's just one of the possible options. It can be anything. More debuffs/buffs with varied timers to manage, DoTs. Healers who just want to heal will never touch non-healing buttons. There are already players who don't even touch their Dia/Biolysis/Combust/E.Diagnosis when it's actually a simple, convenient "press this button once every 30s and forget", why do you think they'll even stress about touching more buttons? If any, expectation for healers to dps would be lowered because it'll become commonly known that dpsing requires more skill than the current 1 button spam ad nauseam.

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Once again a tired old post about healers not being fun lol.

Healers are fun. There I can state a subjective opinion as if it was an objective one too.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

That would be good reason to fall back onto if we really need to heal that much... except we don't. I even mentioned it specifically in the post that you decided to only read the first half and cut the 2nd half away for whatever reason:

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I didnt skip it, I read all of it. I cut it due to the text limit on a single post and I just wanted to point out a thing. Gotta love how you just assume the worst in things.

Anyway, I also said on a previous post that Im not against giving more extra options to help with the damage as long as they dont overbloat the class to have a full dps rotation buttons or skills taking away of the focus on healing. Again I speak in my experience that when I play healer I always feel on my toes because I basically babysit boo boos and potential boo boos in group content in my years of playing this game. Not once did I get bored of my class because unlike others I still feel valued. So many people are just angry in this forum and while Im all for feedback, this just feels stupidly vicious. Maybe Im just being a special snowflake.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

I didnt skip it, I read all of it. I cut it due to the text limit on a single post and I just wanted to point out a thing. Gotta love how you just assume the worst in things.

Anyway, I also said on a previous post that Im not against giving more extra options to help with the damage as long as they dont overbloat the class to have a full dps rotation buttons or skills taking away of the focus on healing. Again I speak in my experience that when I play healer I always feel on my toes because I basically babysit boo boos and potential boo boos in group content in my years of playing this game. Not once did I get bored of my class because unlike others I still feel valued. So many people are just angry in this forum and while Im all for feedback, this just feels stupidly vicious. Maybe Im just being a special snowflake.

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Fair enough, my apologies for having negative assumptions. Because in general when people do want to reduce the amount of text to meet the limitation, they'd normally just replace the whole text with something like "Snip". Other forum user can still trace back which post they're actually quoting by clicking that little arrow.

Anyway...
Full DPS rotations, like I've mentioned earlier is just one of the possibilities... but personally? I don't want that 100%. Not that I'd refuse to entirely learn if they actually drop it. That's just how much I'm attached to this green roles.

Even something as simple as adding one sort of 'different timer', i.e. 2nd DoT and/or additional buff with duration that's NOT 30s would be a boon to break the monotony. One of the most popular ones that's often mentioned was something like adding back Aero III into WHM's arsenal. Again, that's just one of many possibilities.

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

Also, I feel like a lot of posters in this thread likely play mostly with statics or friends and as a result, are out of touch with the general player base. Not the devs. The OP has a forum signature that pretty much says this, which is ironic. Just being on these forums almost automatically puts you at a higher level than most players who rarely know they even exist.

Almost every day in my daily roulettes, I STILL encounter healers who dont even want to DPS as things are RIGHT NOW...and this thread clamors for MORE challenge...

so Yoshi P has the data and has the right path going forward here, I believe.

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I play as a healer with randos in casual instances up to alliance raids. It's still dead easy, even with people making silly errors, and I can comfortably spend most of my time dpsing, whether as a WHM or as a SGE. The sheer ease of putting out big healing guarantees it provided you know how to use the job at a basic level, e.g. reading tool tips and understanding how GCDs and oGCDs work. The fact that people confirm this occurs even in harder content and can provide the log analysis to prove it should give people some pause. It's not a great place to be to have your only difficult content be the very hardest mode of it. 1 nuke 1 dot and some occasional damage spells isn't fun.

I used to raid back when I played WoW, so I am familiar with MMO mechanics, but it's not like it's difficult to figure this stuff out if you put in even minimal effort.

Honestly all jobs get boring. I was always a healer main until SHB expansion then went summoner main. I did level my healers to 90 just to have them just in case but I’m still a summoner main and it’s boring lol. See the same primals over and over.

What I’m trying to say is I’m not sure what healers want? Most of you barely heal now as it is. I can’t tell you how many times groups I’ve been in wiped because our Whm only casted glare, the sch was foolish and only let weak eos try to heal everyone while they broil away etc. I’m quite happy healers don’t have full dps rotations because they would be so focused on dps and trying to get good “numbers” we’d never get any heals.

I don’t feel bad for healer mains. I use to be one and I always put healing first but nowadays most healers are so dps focused that they forget they are healers first. I hope they never expand upon dps with healers because I’m afraid we’d never get any heals then.

And please stop threatening the devs saying everyone gonna quit healing. It’s BS and you all know it. I said that many times and I still get the itch to go back and I do sometimes to play. There will always be healers in the game so let’s just stop that. That’s why Yoshi P doesn’t care. He sees the numbers. He sees healers aren’t disappearing.

I know allot of people might come for me and say I’m crazy and I don’t know what I’m talking about and blah blah. I don’t care. I don’t know you people. I’m just stating my opinion on a free public forum like the rest of you.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

So many people are just angry in this forum and while Im all for feedback, this just feels stupidly vicious. Maybe Im just being a special snowflake.

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There's a few things happening here, a couple of them personal to you, and a couple that has resonated with a whole group of people for a long time. These complaints, of healers being dull and having little to do in comparison with other jobs, in relation to their main role, has been going on for years with little response other than willful ignorance, a jaded response that they don't want to hear our feedback anymore, and hand-waving. Most of us, who have these long-standing complaints, understand and can appreciate the value in a low skill floor for accommodating players who have difficulty with the concept of the healing role and players who are just new to playing in the role in general.
The issue we have, however, is that the skill ceiling is far too low, and healing requirements in general alongside it, so improvement in healers leads to boredom in the best case scenario, becoming obsolete in the best case scenario, and ambivalence inbetween.

We need a higher skill ceiling so healers that do go above and beyond your and my skill levels aren't just made to feel that they're being lied to when they're told they're necessary for party compositions to succeed.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Fair enough, my apologies for having negative assumptions. Because in general when people do want to reduce the amount of text to meet the limitation, they'd normally just replace the whole text with something like "Snip". Other forum user can still trace back which post they're actually quoting by clicking that little arrow.

Anyway...
Full DPS rotations, like I've mentioned earlier is just one of the possibilities... but personally? I don't want that 100%. Not that I'd refuse to entirely learn if they actually drop it. That's just how much I'm attached to this green roles.

Even something as simple as adding one sort of 'different timer', i.e. 2nd DoT and/or additional buff with duration that's NOT 30s would be a boon to break the monotony. One of the most popular ones that's often mentioned was something like adding back Aero III into WHM's arsenal. Again, that's just one of many possibilities.

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Ah I see, this is also my bad since Im not as overly versed in forum posting. Thanks!

I think I would prefer if existing spells had an altered effect to help with either inflicting useful debuffs or dealing additional damage. But yeah I just dont want to see healers get too bloated in their skill arsenal. Kinda like how it was universally liked when the devs got rid of the TP system along with trimming down enmity skills for tanks and keeping it simple enough while still dealing damage with combos and other ogcds. As long as the hotbars are still kept simple I'll be happy basically lol.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Ok thats gonna be a hard disagree on my end. White Mage, Sage and Scholar DO NOT play like each other. White Mage you have your bursty heals, the best AoE in the game for mobs but require more careful MP management. Sage is an odd mix of heals, regens and shields alongside having a button to change those properties on your basic healing and damage spells with the added bonus on healing via damaging. And Scholar is all about proper fairy usage with not having strong heals but making up for it with stronger shields. I seriously dont see how those 3 classes play the exact same way, sure they have similar usage to their ogcds with their gauges (somewhat) but like I mentioned before, the whole design aspect of healing is to heal not to deal damage.

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When 70-90% of all we do is damage and all the healers have 1 dot 1 nuke spam to do the damage with very minor variations then nearly close to 70-90% of the healers play the same, period.

The rest idk what game you're playing cause that is simply wrong, Whm does not rely on bursty heals more than anyone else as everyone has the same bursty heals (and for the most part better and more efficient) and the little niches of differentiation that it may have like cure 3 or some afflatus heals are unneficient and do more harm than good, its AoE is laughable compared to sage and keeps it from healing without clipping due to the non reduction of the cast time Holy has. Sage is literally Sch 2.0 to the point you can pinpoint the majority of heals and show their Sch equivalent with the exact same potency, cd and resource used the only difference is that for Sge they are not a dps loss and Sch isnt about fairy management only (as there is nothing to manage, only press the cds and rarely mechanics ask for more than leaving the fairy in the middle) is about cutting loses from Aetherflow which is a completely different point and its own can of worms about how badly designed it is.

I really don‘t know how to feel about that comment, following the laughter. Honestly just proved they don‘t take complaints/suggestions about healers seriously. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I love the devs but that comment kind of gave me „Do you not have phones?“ vibes.

And this is a consequence over revolving every little aspect of the game around the casuals. They want to try to play everything safe, so it doesn't upset the casual majority.

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Originally Posted by Nav_Fae

And this is a consequence over revolving every little aspect of the game around the casuals. They want to try to play everything safe, so it doesn't upset the casual majority.

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I don't blame them. The last 1 or 2 years of WoW, they shifted heavily toward a more hardcore audience and have suffered drastically for it (and for other reasons.) Their next patch is shifting (albeit only slightly) back towards the casual end of things.

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

All this said, I mean after reading the entire thread, I can see Yoshi P's statement made a lot of people mad. But he isn't wrong. If you feel unchallenged, on ANY role, go to do more challenging content. It's that simple.

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It shouldn't be either 0 or 100.

That's the reason midcore content is supposed to exist in this game, to fill that spectrum.

The problem is that they dialed back what made each healer unique...even taking away some of their own unique skills to make them all relatively the same (minus their systems). Remember when AST had lumineferous aether, WHM had shroud of saints, I dont remember what SCH had? Ontop of it all, all healers had I think it was at least 2 DoTs. Those changes were brought with Stormblood and that was unfortunately when the healers began to lose what made them unique. Even the healers had their own unique cleansing skills (AST: Exalted detriment or something, WHM: Esuna, SCH: leeches). This is what happens when you try to gear the game more towards newer/ casual players. Unfortunately, with an MMO its hard to balance the game that would fit the more hardcore scene w/o sacrificing some of it for the casuals or vice versa/

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

It shouldn't be either 0 or 100.

That's the reason midcore content is supposed to exist in this game, to fill that spectrum.

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Thats where you are probably misjudging the middle. That spectrum is quite filled already, and Yoshi P likely has the proof of this. Most players are really, really bad at this game. I can say I am self aware enough to know I am pretty bad, but I regularly encounter those far worse than I am.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

This is effectively what the lead designer of this game told Healers in the latest live letter.

Consider if he had said that about your role for a second and how you would feel.

Forget the leveling experience, it doesn't matter.

Forget dungeons up to 90, they don't matter.

Forget normal raids, EX's, and Savage, they don't matter.

If you want your job to be engaging, play Ultimate, the hardest content in the game that only a few percentage of actual players do.

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I mean.. if fates, dungeons, alliance raids, extremes, savages, hunting, pvp and ??? feel boring to you, maybe you are, in fact, on that level as healer where you are more than ready for ultimate?? Just a thought.

Same problem I have with most content honestly. I feel there is very little middle ground. Its either can't fail unless everyone is alseep easy, or its need cordinated static difficulty

Extremes are the middle ground option I guess, but I wish there were more

Okay...? Play Savage then.

I'm fine with healers being chill for most stuff. If I want a challenge then Savage is more than enough.

Not every encounter has to be a struggle.

As a WHM main who doesn't do Savage or Ultimate (I like the idea of challenge. I hate the idea of schedules), I was a bit disappointed at that line myself. I do still enjoy healing but I PUG and my favorite PUG groups are where it goes pear shaped. Because that's when we actually need to heal. My least favorite PUG groups are where everything goes like a well oiled machine. It's incredibly boring because it feels like we don't need to be there.

Contrast that with playing my tank or dps roles, I never feel like I don't need to be there, whether things are going smooth or we're struggling a bit.

I don't necessarily need more dps buttons. I'm not interested in being a green dps. I just want more that's necessary to do. We could buff, debuff, apply damage shields, clear statuses, Twelve forbid even let us do crowd control. Especially with saying they want to draw in more players by making the MSQ more attractive to the single-player-only crowd (which I think is good), this would be a great time for some overhauls that make our role more like it is in those single player Final Fantasy games. You don't leave your "support" role behind in those games, and that's where I think they could strengthen our place a lot more.

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

I don't blame them. The last 1 or 2 years of WoW, they shifted heavily toward a more hardcore audience and have suffered drastically for it (and for other reasons.) Their next patch is shifting (albeit only slightly) back towards the casual end of things.

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Except the original question by Recon1o6 in the endwalker questions wasn't just about the healing difficulty but the monotonous spam of Dosis / Broil / Glare / Malefic. In actuality, doing challenging content like Ultimates and Higher end raids like Savage doesn't solve this problem at all. It makes it worse because healer DPS starts becoming essential and mandatory to beat Enrage. The actual question of 'can you do something about making me press the same one offense-oriented DPS button over 100+ times in an encounter' was never answered.

Shifting content to be easier is fine. However, the higher you go, the more healing tools you get. The more healing tools OTHER jobs get. You actually heal less the better you get accustomed to a fight - even in normal modes. Gear makes it so you heal MORE per skill, but it also makes it so so you have to use LESS healing skills to get the same effect, and spend more time on DPS as a result. There's just so many ways a healer is largely discouraged from healing that they start feeling more and more like a DPS... but instead of pressing buttons, they're playing 'how many times can I press 1-1-1-1-1-1' simulator.

If you can tell a tank to lose their entire DPS rotation because all they need is one button to establish aggro for every expansion and 50+ mitigations instead to do their job. Most will cry foul immediately. It really is just that simple. How is that acceptable for one role and not the other when both roles require situational awareness and have their own things outside of just DPSing?

The real problem is that the devs can give more DPS skills to the tanks, but they can't do that for healers? When it was the tanks who got more healing tools for the party in addition to extra DPS tools? When the DPS also get a bit of mitigation tools? They're suddenly juggling more responsibility ... but healers suddenly have to be either a complete beginner or an Ultimate player?

Where do people who know how to use their toolkit stand then? The ones who are average at the game, want a bit of safety net, and GCD heal a couple of times, but still have more than 10+ seconds to DPS immediately after?

Not even including the fact that higher level content generally requires a party and has a smaller pool of players - which means it's not always accessible for your specific time period, the more difficult content is still the same 1-1-1-1-1.

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Originally Posted by Burmecia

I mean.. if fates, dungeons, alliance raids, extremes, savages, hunting, pvp and ??? feel boring to you, maybe you are, in fact, on that level as healer where you are more than ready for ultimate?? Just a thought.

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I didn't say that, he inferred it.

HE thinks that if you want engagement you should be playing ultimate content, therefore anything other than that doesn't provide engagement.

Another day, another healer getting the middle finger.

What else is new around here?

as if ultimates were really any different.


check a log–any log– from ANY ultimate. even gray logs have each healer casting their dps spell like 140 times at the very least.


the only ultimate that really kind of tests healers is TEA, and thats only for the first 5 minutes of the fight. the other two ultimates are potency and gear crept to hell and back and dont present much challenge anymore. what then? wait for dragonsong ultimate?

It def felt to me as a odd statement, and the wording rubbed me the wrong way. Personally the gap between normal content which seems to get easier and the extreme savage ultimate content widens, I would love challenging content that’s just accessible and manageable by duty finder, without a static or the requirement to study the fight on YouTube to be fully prepared.

I can’t even remember ever getting stuck on normal/hard content every party I joined with duty finder just plowed thru it extremely fast, and on numerous occasions after a wipe the tank just did the end bos solo.

Ew was my first expansion and I expected the groups I would join to struggle and to talk strategy, but to me a big disappointment was that every group i joined just plowed extremely fast through the content, no tactics needed and on 3 occasions I saw the MT just solo the end boss after we accidentally died, that doesn’t seem right.

Healer in normal content is too hard for the vast majority of players, and they don't want the rest of the customers to be handcuffed to people who are like an anchor tossed from a ship.

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Originally Posted by QooEr

as if ultimates were really any different.

check a log–any log– from ANY ultimate. even gray logs have each healer casting their dps spell like 140 times at the very least.

the only ultimate that really kind of tests healers is TEA, and thats only for the first 5 minutes of the fight. the other two ultimates are potency and gear crept to hell and back and dont present much challenge anymore. what then? wait for dragonsong ultimate?

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Yes and just like with Savage or EX for that reason, after you've done it multiple times it becomes auto pilot and you'll have the same issue once again. Not to mention they just cut an entire ultimate and heavily delayed it (No stop using covid as an excuse for everything).

This is just pure arrogance in my opinion.

Now I wait for all the whiteknights coming with pitchforks and trow me on the bonfire.

Shame healing is still easy and boring in the ultimates then, beside like ll and garuda at launch, but now you're just sleeping.
Just give me procs like bards, anything than 1.5 dps button.

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Originally Posted by Floortank

Healer in normal content is too hard for the vast majority of players, and they don't want the rest of the customers to be handcuffed to people who are like an anchor tossed from a ship.

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More Class engagement does not have to be new damaging buttons. Properly using our heals to give bonuses to our personal or group damage. An example of this could be a damage up on heals like lustrate, with the buff being better based on how low you over-heal. Or a stacking bonus for every time WHM uses the Blood Lily.

If you find all the content boring except Ultimates then why are you playing the game? If you think it is boring because it's not tryhard enough then quit. It's a Final Fantasy game not a FromSoftware game. Final Fantasy has never been a difficult game series or about difficulty.