"You pull, you tank" is a bad mentality

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Originally Posted by Skiros

If a DPS or healer pulls in front of you as a tank, refusing to grab aggro and watching them die (or not; sometimes the healer or DPS can survive easily) is just petty. It's basically a temper tantrum. It's an "I gotta teach them a lesson" sorta attitude that is frankly kinda cringe.

That's just my opinion! Tanks shouldn't do this!

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Depends.
If it's the first time they pull I'll typically pick it up for them.
If they do it a second time, I'll ask what their deal is.

Third time? You die. Enjoy.

Nah. I think I'll let you die instead. Shouldn't have pulled so much, if you couldn't handle it.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

In the end of the day pulling is part of the Tanks job and it always has been in MMO's and for good reason.
There's almost never a good reason for the DPS to pull and the Tank has the best feel for what the comfort level of the Healer ( and themselves ) is.
The DPS has no clue about this and shouldn't be screwing around with that.

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You also have to remember that older MMOs that punished this sort of behavior had VERY steep penalties for dying (losing gear, loss of hours of exp, money, ect). This game punishes you by slapping your armor a bit and lowering it's durability. Sadly, this sort of trend is happening because dying is no longer an issue outside of loss of time and a weakness that drops fairly fast.

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

My only input will be; if you pull it, pull it into the tank aoe. If you decide to kite it, that’s on you and there’s no esuna for lack of common sense

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That's how deal with it as well.
I don't mind taking extra mobs, doesn't change a thing about which buttons I press. I aoe and mitigate anyway. As long as they stay reasonably close to me and drop them in/ near my aoe, it's all good. Same for healers healing me while pulling: if a mob turns around, just bring it to me, don't start kiting or duelling it somewhere in Narnia. I'm not pulling a bunch of neatly stacked mobs out of groun aoes to chase someone that thought pulling and kiting was a brilliant idea.
Should we wipe because the healer couldn't handle the pull or dps was too low, I'll make sure to let the person pulling know that they caused a wipe and should stop it but if we don't wipe, I don't care.

Main healer here, Wife is main tank, I also subclass a tank.

The speed of the dungeon should be discussed by the party. Someone who wants to go faster deciding to pull is selfish, no matter the class. Without discussion, you can't know what other people can handle. Talk to the party, get an idea then do the run.

If talking doesn't work then:
If the tank pulls too much the party dies hopefully the tank realizes they pulled to much for the group to handle.

If others pull without discussing, then what happens, happens. I personally will try to pull the mobs off and keep from wiping, then try to talk to the person that is wanting to go faster. My pet peeve however is when a DPS/Healer pulls a boss during others watching a cutscene. Then I sit and watch.

Tbh I think a lot of people assume it's an ego problem to a point it becomes ridiculous.
I've had a Healer before get mad at me because I told DPS to stop pulling because the Healer was afk ( which they were ).
I told them I was going to leave if they kept pulling.
The first thing the Healer said to me after being afk for 10 minutes without saying a word and with wipes with the DPS continuing to run and pull wall to wall was '' then leave ''.

I left.
People just assume the Tank has an ego problem or is toxic without actually considering or giving any thought to why the Tank doesn't want DPS to pull.
To the point that even a Healer who afks without saying anything will give the Tank shit for noticing and waiting.

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

You also have to remember that older MMOs that punished this sort of behavior had VERY steep penalties for dying (losing gear, loss of hours of exp, money, ect). This game punishes you by slapping your armor a bit and lowering it's durability. Sadly, this sort of trend is happening because dying is no longer an issue outside of loss of time and a weakness that drops fairly fast.

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Dying is a waste of time, and we're more likely to die if the DPS pulls.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

waste of time

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And this is why you don't pull if you're not the tank or haven't previously discussed it with the tank/party.

Even if you think the tank is going slow, you're going to slow things down even more when they stop to scold you. Is it worth trying to save 20 seconds on a pull if the tank stops the entire party in its tracks for 5-10 minutes to argue with you?

Anyone else find it humorous how many threads get made on this board that basically amount to the OP saying they shouldn't have to follow online etiquette or be courteous to other players in game?

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

In the end of the day pulling is part of the Tanks job and it always has been in MMO's and for good reason.
There's almost never a good reason for the DPS to pull and the Tank has the best feel for what the comfort level of the Healer ( and themselves ) is.
The DPS has no clue about this and shouldn't be screwing around with that.

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Always? The ones I've played before XIV, the puller was usually a ranged dps or support and the tank would stay at camp or something similar.
If you have to stop for some reason, say something to the others and 9 out of 10 times they'll stop.

Troll fake-concernposting aside, this topic does keep coming up and frankly YPYT is a blackhole of small pp energy that sucks all the fun out of dungeons and boss fights. The tank's job in XIV is to hold aggro but if they get their ego hurt that someone ran ahead of them (why aren't you sprinting?) and decide to flip off stance or stand around and mpk, they're in the wrong.

Also OP: what exactly is your sh*tposting schedule? And how long can we expect you to fart up the forums? Until the next raid tier or what?

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Originally Posted by Denji

And this is why you don't pull if you're not the tank or haven't previously discussed it with the tank/party.

Even if you think the tank is going slow, you're going to slow things down even more when they stop to scold you. Is it worth trying to save 20 seconds on a pull if the tank stops the entire party in its tracks for 5-10 minutes to argue with you?

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That's a silly idea, why would by default assume that every tank is a petty child?

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

Tbh I think a lot of people assume it's an ego problem to a point it becomes ridiculous.
I've had a Healer before get mad at me because I told DPS to stop pulling because the Healer was afk ( which they were ).
I told them I was going to leave if they kept pulling.
The first thing the Healer said to me after being afk for 10 minutes without saying a word and with wipes with the DPS continuing to run and pull wall to wall was '' then leave ''.

I left.
People just assume the Tank has an ego problem or is toxic without actually considering or giving any thought to why the Tank doesn't want DPS to pull.
To the point that even a Healer who afks without saying anything will give the Tank shit for noticing and waiting.



Dying is a waste of time, and we're more likely to die if the DPS pulls.

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This only works under the assumption that everyone else can avoid getting aggro on the extra mobs which is just not possible as healer. But if you attempt a spicy pull without one of the dps it is guaranteed to fail, where as if you played normally and get aggro you have a decent chance of succeeding.

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

Anyone else find it humorous how many threads get made on this board that basically amount to the OP saying they shouldn't have to follow online etiquette or be courteous to other players in game?

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I just think we're all bored at work and the only reason we're here to beat this dead horse instead of watching Netflix/YouTube or playing a mobile game is because our phones are too poor to do either of those things and the forums are one of things our little handlets can barely handle.

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Originally Posted by Padudu

If dps/healer are pulling mobs you're going too slow as a tank, honestly who cares that much lmao I just take the aggro and deal with it.

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Not always. I was in Dead Ends last night. The healer ran ahead constantly from the very moment the circle dropped into mobs before they could even see what the tank was going to pull.

They zoned into the second area after the first boss before everyone else and already had mobs on them (that they didn't bother to bring back) before the tank could even finish zoning. It took the tank a second. The healer died and I laughed IRL. Instant karma.

Maybe instead of encouraging any lone wolf behavior from any role in groups, we encourage team members to be aware of each other and move together as a unit.

There is no grounds where they can't pull that I cannot. I do wall to wall pulls, I don't need them to pull ahead of me. It's pretty patronizing and rude to pull ahead of the tank when there is no actual benefit to it.

However.

If the tank is thickheaded about pulling single packs, specially when it's regardless of the healer assurance about the safety of the tank, and tries to force everyone else into a slower pace irrationally, then he shouldn't complain when the rest of the party refuses to abide by the tank rules.

Less "YPYT is toxic", more "trying to set the pace for the rest of the party to your own preference is toxic".

A good group works in unison . If anything falters its not just on the DPS

The DPS should run with the tank within a few feet , the healer a little behind but it doesn't really matter (think diamond formation) but if you move closely to each other accidental body pulls can be grabbed by a tank faster if your running together . Generally the way we are funnelled along corridors/walkways DPS generally dont have to use their range attacks to help the tank yet they can do


The tank fails the group if it allows enemies to continually attack the DPS or healer roles in the party resulting in one or more of them dying , regardless if the DPS/healer body or ranged pulled enemies that tank stopped too far away from . If the DPS are over doing it and the tank and healer are struggling due to nerves , internet performance , or lack of experience ( it happens to us all BUT WE MUST LEARN and ENDURE IT) then the persons behind the DPS characters are at fault for not accessing the situation and making matter worse , unless if the tank and healer are comfortable and complacent DPS should help grab as much and burn them down once brought to the tank , if tank hasn't already run at the new threat already after the previous pull was dealt with.

The DPS fail the group if they are so slow at using their DPS abilities properly that the tank takes and soaks up too much damage over a longer period of time due to enemies taking too long to die, for its own mitigation tools to be rotated effectively and this then places stress on the healer. DPS fail the healer when they are clumsy and fail mechanics causing them to take unnecessary damage , which should improve with combat experience, if not they are failing the healer.

The healer fails the tank , if it sleeps on its fast recovery utility's if the above scenarios are not in play , and it fails the group if it refuses to contribute to the damage of the pull thus making the time to kill longer and increases the damage the tank soaks for each damage GCD not used.
Tanks do not need to be constantly healed , they just need to be kept alive. This means healers have plenty of GCDs to use for damage instead of healing when healing is not required.

When you all move together and all use the mandatory rotations of your spell/ability set then a few pulls by DPS here and there wont effect much . Check you r surroundings . Big pulls in Antitower should be the norm ( it usually is ) , pulling all the dragons in the first few corridors and rooms to the first boss in Stone Vigil (lvl41) is a terrible move and will kill everyone with the sheer lack of utility synced or not tanks and healers have and dps with basic aoe

"You pull, you tank" is a unwritten Rule among MMORPG players to make sure, that its always the Tank who declares which Target gets killed first, for the obvious reason of having the highest Defense values.

In some Games, you genuinely need to plan your Pulls if you wish to progress and if some DPS or Healer thinks to cut out of line by breaking this Rule, they have to learn things the hard way, since it not only makes the fight more chaotic, it also can turn a fight into a "almost win" situation where expensive ressources or long CD got burned, making other People wait until Ressources are avaiable again or until death penalties are worn off.

In FFXIV, this isnt applied much outside of Deep Dungeons and some of the Coils/Alexander Trials on min ilvl, but the gist of all this, is that Tanking, is a Tanks Job, and pulling, is also a Tanks Duty. Just as you dont want to be critisized for your DPS or Healing performance, Tanks shouldnt be critisized by the way they pull stuff, therefore, if you think youre a special Snowflake by cutting out of Line,

You Pull, you Tank.

That is all there is to it.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

That's a silly idea, why would by default assume that every tank is a petty child?

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Please don't put words in my mouth. I only allow food and men after a good date to go in there.

For real though, I'm not. I'm saying that the potential risk of halting the party and wasting everyone's time isn't worth the few seconds you save by pulling.

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

Skiros is actually right here. If the DPS pulls, and the tank doesn't take the aggro off them for whatever reason, it's the HEALER is the one that pays the price for the tank's decisions.

Healers naturally generate aggro from healing on ALL mobs. It doesn't matter if they heal the tank or the DPS, they simply generate aggro from all mobs by healing in general. Plus, a large number of their skills are AoE heals, so that quadruples their aggro generation. A good healer will try to keep everyone alive regardless, because more DPS = safer and higher damage output => enemies die faster, so there will be less total damage and healer won't risk running low on healing resources in a pull.

If the tank doesn't take aggro, that means the tank would:
1. Be burdening your healer by having them heal a second target and risk them dying immediately after the mobs pop the DPS like a balloon because all the aggro transfers over to the healer
2. Risk having the a good healer steal aggro from the DPS and end up tanking enemies - burdening the healer more by having them be forced to heal both the tank and themselves, as well as any AoE the party steps on.
3. force the healer to not heal or use their healing skills to avoid generating aggro (a.k.a. not play their role) - in which you affect their gameplay by making them a useless cheerleader or a gimped DPS...


In all 3 instances, the tank also became a burden to the healer by making their job more difficult to keep the team alive and prevent a wipe. If the healer dies or cannot perform their job, the tank risk wiping the party and slowing down the team's progress. So yeah, the tank would be 100% at fault no matter how you look at it.

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The sensible thing for the healer to do in this situation is avoid healing the DPS until a tank has aggro. It's much easier to recover by having to raise one DPS than taking that aggro, going splat, the rest of the party going splat, and then everyone having to waste time getting back to that point to continue on. There may be tanks who don't take aggro on purpose but there are also tanks not doing it on purpose. They may not see it in the rush, they may have been afk for a second, their cat was on fire, whatever. If we as healers don't see the tank react then we should expect action on our part is going to get unwanted aggro and possibly death and it will cause less strain on the party to just let the person die.

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Originally Posted by Illmaeran

Call me old school, but it's a good thing. If a DPS goes ahead and pulls things when I'm not ready to grab them, then it's on that player to handle them until I can. I appreciate courteous pulling, but too often the people who are doing it just rush ahead and go full-out which makes it more difficult to snag everything. When this happens, I'll use my normal attack rotation appropriate for the type of pull, but won't provoke off the DPS. If I happen to grab threat, great, if not, they pull, they deal with it.

I save Provoke for stragglers I miss on a pull or when the healer's got a friend that's too clingy.

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Agreed!
Call me old school too, but I remember a thing called tank etiquette.

I see tons of posts about players not knowing how to do their jobs, but how are they supposed to learn if you don't give them the chance?
Some people actually want to learn how to tank without being thrown into a situation where they now have to try to regain aggro from overzealous dps or healers .

If you want to run ahead and pull all the mobs and control the pace of the dungeon, then be a tank. Otherwise, go at their pace.
I said my peace.

As someone who has tanked a lot for the better part of the last two years, I'm confused how people even manage to get ahead of the tank and pull mobs for them. Are ya'll frequently afking or something?

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Originally Posted by Tyjacon

I see tons of posts about players not knowing how to do their jobs, but how are they supposed to learn if you don't give them the chance?.

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LOL, right? I popped into roulettes recently on GNB. I'm not the best GNB and was rusty from when I had played it last and gotten it to 80. But I'm not gonna get things down without practice. Got Babil which I was not expecting but I don't drop my ilevel to limit my dungeons and even though I was a bit O_O, I rolled with it. Warned the team I'm shaky. Tried to take pulls at a level I felt wasn't going to wipe the party. Sage Rescued me into more mobs. My health is going down fast. I hit the OH SH- button and they scream at me not to Superbolide with a Sage because they can't get tanks back up as fast. Then....why not listen when someone in the group communicates they may have a weak spot and the team might need to adjust a bit?

I've kindly asked people not to run ahead of me when tanking. I had one person actually go along with it (after they got themselves wrecked). They wait til they get to the exit to post a little snide comment and lmao before exiting. Who's the real child here?

I try to make your life easier by taking the hits, you can return the favor by letting me do that.

I had another instance, where I wasn't the tank. I was bard and this sam wanted to pull ahead of the healer and tank, who were both new to the zone (Dead Ends). He got wrecked once and it didn't stop him. He even early pulled the final boss, but the tank decided to grab aggro before the buster. We had some mishaps on the first and last fights. I offered help when I spotted what was wrong. The sam decided to mouth off to them and got themself kicked. I offered my advice and we cleared on the next pull.

YPYT isn't little energy. It's just a more polite way of saying don't be a ****.

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Originally Posted by Tyjacon

I see tons of posts about players not knowing how to do their jobs, but how are they supposed to learn if you don't give them the chance?

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You don't learn in Shadowbringers or Endwalker dungeons. People typically are far more tolerant of slower tanks at and below 50. By 60 and especially 70, you should know how to do proper wall sized pulls. It's one thing if you're a little gun shy to try some of the crazy pulls like in Bardem's Mettle or Mt. Gulg but if you're still trying to single pull at 70, you clearly aren't ready to tank at higher level content and thus should go back to the lower levels for practice. And no, Gunbreaker being unlocked at 60 doesn't absolve this. The onus is on you to practice if you're never tanked before not to subject 3/7 other players to your learning curve.

What's particularly irksome come Shadowbringers is you have an entire system designed for players who want to take it slow, admire the scenery or simply dislike pulling everything: Trusts. Use them. There is zero excuse to solo queue into 71+ dungeons and demand everyone else cater to your preferences. This applies to both sides, by the way. If I happen to get put into a dungeon with three people who want to take things slow, I'll either adjust accordingly or take the penalty. They have the majority after all. What isn't okay is thinking that just because you're a tank you can demand everyone else goes slow.

"You pull, you tank"

Full Blue Mage party all runs in with flaming underpants.

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Originally Posted by Skiros

If a DPS or healer pulls in front of you as a tank, refusing to grab aggro and watching them die (or not; sometimes the healer or DPS can survive easily) is just petty. It's basically a temper tantrum. It's an "I gotta teach them a lesson" sorta attitude that is frankly kinda cringe.

That's just my opinion! Tanks shouldn't do this!

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Don't be silly! It has nothing to do with being petty or teaching them a lesson.
If a healer or DPS insists on pulling, then obviously they WANT to tank. So it is just polite to let them live their tank dream, rather than rudely yank aggro away from them.

You'd think people would catch on to the TC's bait after who knows how many topics, but....

part of being a good tank is being to tell how big of pull your current party can handle. some party's just can't handle wall to wall pulls.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Not always. I was in Dead Ends last night. The healer ran ahead constantly from the very moment the circle dropped into mobs before they could even see what the tank was going to pull.

They zoned into the second area after the first boss before everyone else and already had mobs on them (that they didn't bother to bring back) before the tank could even finish zoning. It took the tank a second. The healer died and I laughed IRL. Instant karma.

Maybe instead of encouraging any lone wolf behavior from any role in groups, we encourage team members to be aware of each other and move together as a unit.

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Use your sprint button smh

I never really had that much of an issue with people pulling ahead of me tbh, I just go in and retake aggro, gg ez go next if they wanna lone wolf they can, I don't care unless we die lol. And usually if they pull ahead and die they tend to stop anyways, so works for me.

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Originally Posted by Conundrum

He'll keep posting them until everyone recognizes him as a troll and just talks about recipes or something in his threads.

So...anyone got any recommendations for my slow cooker tomorrow? Made excellent beef stew last week. I need something for my upcoming Horizon Forbidden West and live letter binge session.

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How about Pot Roast?

https://www.cookingclassy.com/slow-cooker-pot-roast/

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

As someone who has tanked a lot for the better part of the last two years, I'm confused how people even manage to get ahead of the tank and pull mobs for them. Are ya'll frequently afking or something?

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In FF it is a lot less of the DPS getting ahead of the tank per se, and more of the DPS running off and pulling after the healer or tank say BRB or something. Or the lovely people who decide that tanks waiting on cut scene people in 24 mans is a terrible thing and pull first. In those cases, the DPS deserves death without mercy. After all, there is no real penalty to dying in game not to mention the hilarious time I saw a dps do that when all 6 healers were watching cut scenes. The blood bath was amazing and it was a once in a lifetime thing to witness.

Imo if you want to pull mobs at your pace, play as a tank. If you aren't a tank stay in your lane

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

As someone who has tanked a lot for the better part of the last two years, I'm confused how people even manage to get ahead of the tank and pull mobs for them. Are ya'll frequently afking or something?

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Lemme know how to get ahead of Reaper's teleport, Dancer's triple dash and-for the extra tryhards-Dragoon's backflip going forward, with all of them using sprint right after.

For everybody else, if our sprint cds are mismatched, well.../shrug. It is what it is and like I said before, take care of yourself until I get there, plain and simple.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

Provided they have the common courtesy of dragging them to the tank, then sure there's no excuse.

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Always helps if they're melee and they know they're going to get hit:

Pop Arm's Length so the mob's attacks are slowed.

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Originally Posted by Padudu

Use your sprint button smh

I never really had that much of an issue with people pulling ahead of me tbh, I just go in and retake aggro, gg ez go next if they wanna lone wolf they can, I don't care unless we die lol. And usually if they pull ahead and die they tend to stop anyways, so works for me.

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Well 1, I wasn't the tank. I was the bard. And 2, you seem to have missed the part where I said they ran ahead before the tank could even finish zoning. No amount of sprint is going to make someone zone faster.

This healer had zero party situational awareness and not even dying stupidly like that made them stop doing it.

Another bait post by Skiros, but one I agree with.

As a tank, it is my job to tank. If a DPS or healer is running ahead of me and pulling then I need to grab aggro off them. I may not like what they're doing because it's making my job more difficult, but I just need to grin and bear it so the run ends as quickly as possible. Once the dungeon is complete, I no longer have to deal with the person. There's 2 other people in the dungeon besides me and who's pulling; I should not be inconveniencing them because I don't like someone else's actions.

This is something that rarely occurs to me, however, since I pull wall-to-wall. Only time I slow down is if the healer is severely undergeared. If someone else is pulling first, it's because they're sprinting ahead of me.

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Originally Posted by Espon

Another bait post by Skiros, but one I agree with.

As a tank, it is my job to tank. If a DPS or healer is running ahead of me and pulling then I need to grab aggro off them. I may not like what they're doing because it's making my job more difficult, but I just need to grin and bear it so the run ends as quickly as possible. Once the dungeon is complete, I no longer have to deal with the person. There's 2 other people in the dungeon besides me and who's pulling; I should not be inconveniencing them because I don't like someone else's actions.

This is something that rarely occurs to me, however, since I pull wall-to-wall. Only time I slow down is if the healer is severely undergeared. If someone else is pulling first, it's because they're sprinting ahead of me.

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This post is a post based of personal experience and not one that is written with any thought of being in someone else's shoes.

It lacks any sort of nod toward people who may be new to tanking, whether it be tanking in general, tanking in ffxiv or simply running a dungeon for the first time.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Well 1, I wasn't the tank. I was the bard. And 2, you seem to have missed the part where I said they ran ahead before the tank could even finish zoning. No amount of sprint is going to make someone zone faster.

This healer had zero party situational awareness and not even dying stupidly like that made them stop doing it.

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tfw can't meme text, ya I know you weren't the tank LMAO I'm being facetious

anyways ya I get that healer was dumb, I was mostly replying to your lone wolf comment. I never had a person even come close to doing that before so idk that healer was on 5d big brain chess or something

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Originally Posted by Denji

This post is a post based of personal experience and not one that is written with any thought of being in someone else's shoes.

It lacks any sort of nod toward people who may be new to tanking, whether it be tanking in general, tanking in ffxiv or simply running a dungeon for the first time.

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Not sure what that has to do with anything. Just because you're new to tanking or a dungeon, doesn't mean you should be sitting there griefing the rest of the party because a jerk decided to pull extra. Now you're being more toxic than they are.

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Originally Posted by Espon

Not sure what that has to do with anything. Just because you're new to tanking or a dungeon, doesn't mean you should be sitting there griefing the rest of the party because a jerk decided to pull extra. Now you're being more toxic than they are.

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It's not griefing if you're still learning. If anything pulling when you're not a tank is not only griefing but against the rules according to the Prohibited Activities document, listed under ・Aiding the enemy / Uncooperative behavior / Lethargic behavior and ・Other obstruction of play (MPK).

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Originally Posted by Denji

It's not griefing if you're still learning. If anything pulling when you're not a tank is not only griefing but against the rules according to the Prohibited Activities document, listed under ・Aiding the enemy / Uncooperative behavior / Lethargic behavior and ・Other obstruction of play (MPK).

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Ironically, not taking aggro as a tank (regardless of who pulled) does indeed violate that exact paragraph of ToS ;)

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

Lemme know how to get ahead of Reaper's teleport, Dancer's triple dash and-for the extra tryhards-Dragoon's backflip going forward, with all of them using sprint right after.

For everybody else, if our sprint cds are mismatched, well.../shrug. It is what it is and like I said before, take care of yourself until I get there, plain and simple.

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Every tank has multiple charges of a 20y gap-closer, which allows you to cover more ground than any of those abilities lol. In undertuned leveling dungeons the DPS could just tank the entire dungeon and it wouldn't matter.