FF14 and toxic positivity

Is this a thread about novice network? The title and content are so vague that it's like looking at a bunch of color splotches on a piece of paper and asking people to say what they are seeing.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

if somebody likes the antagonists in a video game, then they are bad people with flawed morals.

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Hannibal Lechter's the best villain ever written and I love the character.

I shall thrown down my gauntlet if you disagree, sir!!

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

A fight, a discussion, a debate, an exchange of ideas, whatever you want to call it.

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Needs more Broil Spam

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

Needs more Broil Spam

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I prefer to grill Spam. If you cook it in a sauté pan for long enough it gets crispy and tastes like bacon, there's that too.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

The playful comment was in response to posters who have consistently insinuated over a number of years that if somebody likes the antagonists in a video game, then they are bad people with flawed morals. In addition to sending weird threats and comments outside of the game itself through Reddit, Twitter and Discord.

Speaking of which, it has long been a problem within the lore community where certain posters will repeatedly harass someone, then when they get even the slightest bit of pushback in response, they throw up their hands and feign innocence.

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Some people must just be absolutely infatuated with you given how much they memorize your posts. Must be the hyur face.

Criticisms are not homogenous between individuals. People have as much right disagreeing with a criticism or 'shutting it down' as this place might phrase in all its hidden glory, as to what people do creating creating criticism in the first place. People aren't really obligated to agree with a criticism.

Besides, I'm not entirely sure what people expect when disagreements in criticisms are often misconstrued as fanboyism, cultism, or white knighting. It's just unconducive to discussion/debate on both sides of the coin to where negative stigmas are starting to sprout, regardless of the intent.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Some people must just be absolutely infatuated with you given how much they memorize your posts. Must be the hyur face.

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It's almost like you remember the people you have strong disagreements with.

It's the same with your posts. But then, you knew that.

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

another low quality troll bait thread. please stop feeding

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You have just proved the claim made by the original poster to be true.
Can we stop calling people as trolls and discuss a bit more seriously? Even WoW folk doesn't do that when someone wants to say something.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

It's almost like you remember the people you have strong disagreements with.

It's the same with your posts. But then, you knew that.

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I don't recall any 'strong disagreements' between us. If there are any, they're very likely one sided or intent is being misjudged somewhere.

Though to provide further clarity to my prior point, here's an older post relating to the subject that I made:

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Originally Posted by Theodric

At the end of the day, it's just a video game. One many of us are varying degrees of passionate about, certainly, though I personally don't care for rivalries to form over something that is entirely fictional. As such, my stance has ever been to agree to disagree where common ground cannot be found. I don't care for endless arguments over morality and I'd like to think I've made it perfectly clear that if anyone has a problem with me, then they're very welcome to come and talk it out in a civil manner.

I like working out and discussing the 'how' and 'why' things happen in the way that they do in any given story or historical event, though my personal preferences drift towards characters and factions that have lofty stakes over those that have everything work out to their benefit most of the time.

One thing I noticed, however, was that some pretty spiteful and nasty accusations were aimed at anyone who ever dared to speak up in favour of the antagonists. This included death threats, homophobic comments and other unpleasant elements. Given that the offending posts were deleted, however, then such will have to be taken with a pinch of salt - though I'd like to think those who are being genuine and who have been around for a while will be aware of what I'm speaking of. Especially since some of the offending comments leaked into Reddit, Twitter and certain Discord servers.

The most fascinating thing I observed was that certain posters would repeatedly launch thinly veiled attacks and sometimes direct personal attacks at fans of the antagonists, implying all manner of horrible things about their person and real world morality. When finally those being assaulted had enough, even a minor quip in response would be treated as some deeply horrific crime and personal attack.

I will say that things have improved somewhat since then. Right around the same time that the game itself revealed that, yes, actually there was more to the Ascians and Garleans all along.

Ultimately any given individual is going to have their personal preferences and interests. I've never suggested that anyone has to like specific characters or factions. I only ask that the same courtesy is extended to others in turn.

In closing, I'd also note that the game attracts players from many different countries, cultures, backgrounds and belief systems. We all have different life experiences, so that is going to influence what we like and we don't like.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

It's almost like you remember the people you have strong disagreements with.

It's the same with your posts. But then, you knew that.

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But do you start to disagree with them because it’s them or because of the things being said.

I hate to bring up names, so I won’t. But there’s a couple people in this thread I’ve disagreed with strongly. However, in this thread and potentially a few others, although recognizing their names, I upvote if I think they have a good point or I find myself agreeing with them.

I don’t hate people, I just disagree with stances, ideas

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

But do you start to disagree with them because it’s them or because of the things being said.

I hate to bring up names, so I won’t. But there’s a couple people in this thread I’ve disagreed with strongly. However, in this thread and potentially a few others, although recognizing their names, I upvote if I think they have a good point or I find myself agreeing with them.

I don’t hate people, I just disagree with stances, ideas

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What thry say, not people. I've agreed with some of their points, and pointed that out when I do, but some of their stances I strongly disagree with, and that tends to be the majority of the (admittedly lurking, as I don't tend to post much these days because the back and forth just get frustrating) interactions.

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

But do you start to disagree with them because it’s them or because of the things being said.

I hate to bring up names, so I won’t. But there’s a couple people in this thread I’ve disagreed with strongly. However, in this thread and potentially a few others, although recognizing their names, I upvote if I think they have a good point or I find myself agreeing with them.

I don’t hate people, I just disagree with stances, ideas

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There are definitely a lot of people who once they see a name will instantly dismiss the person's responses to the topic at hand. I have been guilty of this, but I have also agreed with those same people on other topics.

I know I'm unlikely to forget the faces of the people who had some *interesting* takes to the Summoner rework and their behavior towards me. It was like interacting with a parallel universe. An interesting delve into psychology, but overall it was just unpleasant. They clearly were not expecting someone to directly go against their self-pity party, much less someone whose been around since ARR and has survived all the strange gameplay mechanics this game has seen over the years and enjoyed the class in every FF game except this one prior to the release of 6.0.

I just speak my mind. What people make of my words is up to them and I have no control over what tone of voice they read them in. Beyond that I have limited patience for those who would see the future of the game...veer off into a direction that is far removed from what I come here for, or who are overly attached to elements and characters that I'm just about fed up with. I know that 6.0 released not so long ago, but I cannot wait for 7.0 to wipe the slate clean and for the Heavensward writing team to make a comeback now that FFXVI's story is done.

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Originally Posted by MaxCarnage

Why everything that goes against the popular opinion is brushed off as nothing more than low quality bait is beyond me. I understand that this guy and his many alts do post troll threads. But there are also times where he does have serious conversations.

Whether you like it or not, toxic positivety is very much real and quite prevalent from my own experiences in game.

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When someone spends so much time "crying wolf" it's no surprise that people stop taking them seriously. I'm one of them.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

It's almost like you remember the people you have strong disagreements with.

It's the same with your posts. But then, you knew that.

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I honestly haven’t a clue what you’re talking about. I typically dont let people live in my head rent-free. Don’t got time for petty squabbles you see :)

Positively not toxic:

Valentione Lobster Platter

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/c...pg?format=500w

It sucks because shutting down every form of criticism within the community means we will keep seeing less content while the game's profits have skyrocketed.

The most annoying part is how disingenuous and fragmented the defending arguments can be at times. For example, arguing in favor of the current housing system is already wild to me, but willfully ignoring the part where a subscription-based game can straight up delete your paid Mogstation furniture after demolition is crazy.

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Originally Posted by Raasu

It sucks because shutting down every form of criticism within the community means we will keep seeing less content while the game's profits have skyrocketed.

The most annoying part is how disingenuous and fragmented the defending arguments can be at times. For example, arguing in favor of the current housing system is already wild to me, but willfully ignoring the part where a subscription-based game can straight up delete your paid Mogstation furniture after demolition is crazy.

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SE fans in general are wild and will defend some of the most absolutely mindboggling stuff.

There were people defending and even celebrating the fact that Babylon's Fall is openly reusing assets from FFXIV, and they look extremely bad to boot. It wasn't done as a fun collab or something, it was done because they didn't have enough resources to create enough variety. 60$ USD game btw.

https://i.imgur.com/VW5Mc8M.png

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Originally Posted by Theodric

The playful comment was in response to posters who have consistently insinuated over a number of years that if somebody likes the antagonists in a video game, then they are bad people with flawed morals. In addition to sending weird threats and comments outside of the game itself through Reddit, Twitter and Discord.

Speaking of which, it has long been a problem within the lore community where certain posters will repeatedly harass someone, then when they get even the slightest bit of pushback in response, they throw up their hands and feign innocence.

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I think there are some interesting discussions over there but given my experience with a few people, who I don't believe are evil and have seen be helpful / nice, the lack of willingness to fly with an idea but rather actually a sense of willful desire to smack down ideas instead of use their knowledge to make it better. . . makes me not excited to discuss lore in this game.

That said A. I've seen a number of posters who are active there that I love to see here and are not like that, so.. painting by association is rude lol, and B. To be fair I prefer to get lore myself or at least via nice deep voice presentations xD so I might not have visited a lot anyways. Very much into the death of an author type thing, where interpretations and meaning become both public and personal.

Or more cynically you might say lack of creative vision, but maybe that is unfair if you were discussing something they were actually interested in. Though that makes me feel less great, since I feel if you are willing to engage with someone you should really give it a true try; otherwise.. maybe just don't engage.. lol.. like I've on many occasions went in trying to encourage or add onto ideas that originally were not really my desire (mainly when I see a lot of people shutting them down). I say as much when I do though, just to ensure clarity of my own bias / thoughts. Those who ask questions to better understand the situation and earnestly use that info, even if they don't agree, are some of my favorite posters (which there are a few).

To more of a point of your post though, in my experience the most shutdowns I've seen in the forums are from people who either use code, money, or lore, and of the three it's lore that I've seen far more shutdowns of ideas in a way that I feel is the most like "....really though?". Funnily the most adamant shutdowns that used lore, that /I've/ experienced, have ended up being proven wrong later XD, sometimes to the point that nearly exactly what I thought could happen did actually happen. I think money reasons are the worst because we really know nothing about their situation, we've no business planning their finances, then lore because given patience and creativity you can make a lot happen lol, and code being fairly logical especially when said by those who have some interest in the field.. though I've seen understandings of the game that are also not true. Like someone tried to convince people at one time that instanced for all housing is impossible as it would require too much data and no game could do that (which of course has happened). Yet with all three 'shutdowns' often simply "time" could be the cure to the problem. Time for money, for smooth transition in the story, for figuring out the solution to making chocobos be allowed in parties.. etc, etc.

It was only a few months ago on Reaper, people saying things are impossible or certain desires couldn't be done. Before reaper shirt it was more on Necromancer... but if some recall my posts on how to make a Necromancer work- using wraith like imagery over pure undead, could potentially bind with spirits and have a new visual effect, scythes, etc...A few pretty adamant that such designs couldn't be done due to lore. Honestly I think the more people say no to something the more likely they make it to be lol. Yoshida over there looking "seems like people think I can't do this... I'll show them!" ;). Similar stuff happened with other topics, like beast tribes and summons.

Though one person did describe the actions 'against' certain ideas not so much as things are impossible, but as they're concerned players are going to encourage bad changes to the story. Which I respected as that's like players who want no ultimate or all ultimate content, not that it's impossible just "I don't like the sound of that".

As for the thread sake- to me it seems relatively similar to as it was before, still a lot of people who think the game can do no wrong, still a lot of people who think the game only does wrong. /shrug lol. I think we're generally similar, I've not seen huge shifts in culture that are horrid and concerning. Still a lot of nice people, nice people who've had bad days sometimes, and then a few others, just like normal.

I think it is honestly fine if someone thinks the game is perfect, a bit weird if they think it's the worst and are still playing though..., but just what gets my goat is people shutting down ideas, especially lazily. Can nearly hear my brain start to click when I read that stuff O_o O_O o_O, like captain hook and the crocodile clock. Since I've not said anything good, I'll counter myself and say I know I write a lot.. so I'm sure many wish there was headlines they could read instead of the post lol.

totally random just popped into OP's head REDDIT THREAD.

Summary: Because I met these jerks (saw them talking) the entire community is like this right????!?!?

no.

Grats on engaging one negative aspect of an entire player population and stereotyping the vast majority of players who are reasonable people just playing a game.

you know what almost the entire first page of the forums is? Complaints about the game.

You know what the majority of the responses in those are? Complaints and validation of those complaints.

Does toxic positivity exist? Yes. Is it unique to this population or particularly a problem here? No.

Shock, yet another thread going over the same old topic to garner attention.

I haven't personally encountered the same mentality that criticism is taboo, in-game in FFXIV or in ESO, that I encountered in FFXI. I thought it was actually a point in this game's favor, but with that being said I also wouldn't automatically dismiss the idea that I've just been lucky.

Game forums always tend to be extreme, from what I've seen. People race to "shut down" any criticism of what they feel defines that particular game. The ESO forums don't welcome criticism any more than these ones. The moderators over there are extremely heavy handed though, so it can be tough to say who was ultimately responsible.

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Originally Posted by Kranel_San

You have just proved the claim made by the original poster to be true.
Can we stop calling people as trolls and discuss a bit more seriously? Even WoW folk doesn't do that when someone wants to say something.

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I think that there are some posters that thrive on positive or negative attention. Either one will do. No attention is what they can't abide by. This topic has been posted so many times, in so many ways because it gives the OP what they seek. It's people like you they rely on. Your reply to the other post of this same thread, calling it troll bait isn't so far from the truth.

Next on OP's "discussion" list:
- School bullies are bad actually
- Cancer is cancerous
- I don't think children should go be abused, what do you think?

Please stay tuned for more hot takes from OP

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Originally Posted by Raasu

It sucks because shutting down every form of criticism within the community means we will keep seeing less content while the game's profits have skyrocketed.

The most annoying part is how disingenuous and fragmented the defending arguments can be at times. For example, arguing in favor of the current housing system is already wild to me, but willfully ignoring the part where a subscription-based game can straight up delete your paid Mogstation furniture after demolition is crazy.

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Absolutely. The intolerance towards criticism of this game creates an environment for devs to siphon funds to other projects like FF16. If players of this game were more critical they would be more worried about keeping their existing playerbase. And before anyone brings up the "spare no expense" quote... I don't trust any corporate PR. I will believe that they're actually sparing no expense when I see the content to match.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

The premise of this thread isn't that people can't handle criticism of their criticism. It is that a vocal portion of the community has a habit of resorting to very unpleasant tactics in order to deflect and stifle even the most constructive or innocent feedback related to the game.

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Those are the types of people that will gatekeep the term constructive criticism. They'll say arbitrary things like "your criticism isn't constructive" or "your explanation isn't elaborate enough." It's a way of denying that there's anything wrong with the topic you're criticizing.

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Originally Posted by BaconBits

I wish the word toxic would die a gruesome death. It's worse than "literally" now.

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Agree. The word toxic is so absurdly overused.

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Originally Posted by Ironthorne

Next on OP's "discussion" list:
- School bullies are bad actually
- Cancer is cancerous
- I don't think children should go be abused, what do you think?

Please stay tuned for more hot takes from OP

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So you are suggesting OP is stating the obvious. So that would mean you agree about the toxic positivity then

It seems like nowadays Toxic = Everything I don't like.

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Originally Posted by LaughingBanana

It seems like nowadays Toxic = Everything I don't like.

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Literally. It’s a buzz word thrown around at every opportunity. Like it’s an end all “you, your opinion or your feelings don’t matter because I deemed you toxic”. Overused to the point it gets shrugged off more often than it actually effects the person it’s used to describe

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

So you are suggesting OP is stating the obvious. So that would mean you agree about the toxic positivity then

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Yes, it exists, and it's a bad thing. It's been called out on every single FF14-related platform, ad nauseum.
This is not as great a discovery as some people in this thread seem to think it is.
Calling attention to a well-known problem is just pure attention seeking. "Look at me, I'm not like other FF14 players!"

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Originally Posted by MsQi

No context given, but there is a difference between "I don't like this because..." and advising people not to do certain content because it's "!@#$ing garbage" or "The game is total --- before HW!" If you come in shooting don't be surprised if people fire back.

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Beat me to it, but exactly this. The phrase might be trite, but you're going to get more bees with honey instead of vinegar. You will get more people debating your point with you in good faith if you try to give some reasoning that they can use as a debate point. And that applies to both criticism and praise.

Let me tell you something that someone told me and it has helped me a lot in life, it's simple and elegant: "You can't change people no matter how hard you try". This is even truer online with anonymity and a game that is played by kids that haven't developed critical conscience.

I am pushing 37 so I came from an era where people weren't "toxic", they were harsh, they wouldn't smile at your face to stab you in the back and they wouldn't tip toe around your feelings, you're feeling hurt about how kids were mean to you online? Block them or turn off the computer, logic, right?

I'd rather have that 100x than fake sympathy with zero actual empathy. This age of wokeness and tolerance has created the most intolerant entitled brats since this planet harbored human life and you're either on board or you get cancelled. I appreciate your magnanimous zeal but for the sake of your sanity, apathy is the way to go. Do you, and let the others do them, no matter how ignorant you think they are doing it.

-- “Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times.”

Let them appreciate the good times, strong men will be needed soon.

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Originally Posted by StarkeRegulus

Snip

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Prepare for some potential attacks. But good on you for saying it exactly how it is. More people need to stand up and be as genuine. I am of that same generation. I’ll say it how it is, it doesn’t sound pretty, but it’s honest. I’d rather someone say something I don’t like than to be dishonest with me and themselves

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

Prepare for some potential attacks. But good on you for saying it exactly how it is. More people need to stand up and be as genuine. I am of that same generation. I’ll say it how it is, it doesn’t sound pretty, but it’s honest. I’d rather someone say something I don’t like than to be dishonest with me and themselves

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*chuckle*

Don't worry, I'm not made of glass. (Honestly, probably won't even read the replies).

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Originally Posted by StarkeRegulus

I am pushing 37 so I came from an era where people weren't "toxic", they were harsh, they wouldn't smile at your face to stab you in the back and they wouldn't tip toe around your feelings, you're feeling hurt about how kids were mean to you online? Block them or turn off the computer, logic, right? .

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I'm 42 and I think it's possible to be straightforward and honest while still being civil and respectful of differing opinions.

https://media1.giphy.com/media/3ohhw...giphy.gif&ct=g

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

I'm 42 and I think it's possible to be straightforward and honest while still being civil and respectful of differing opinions.

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Civil? Most absolutely. Handing out participation trophies so they won't get their feelings hurt? I can tell you that's not how I'm raising my kids and they don't seem to have a problem with daddy about it. Being competitive, constantly challenged and being told when I was wrong has made me a much better person than I would've been if people just nodded with a smile at everything I did.

I'm a game developer by profession and criticism was essential to improving our product.

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Originally Posted by StarkeRegulus

Civil? Most absolutely. Handing out participation trophies so they won't get their feelings hurt? I can tell you that's not how I'm raising my kids and they don't seem to have a problem with daddy about it.

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There is a pretty big case for the whole "participation trophy" thing being to placate parents who couldn't stand not having exceptional children and NOT being about the childrens feelings.

Lots of ways of coming at those stereotypes and "my generation is tough, yours is soft". Every generation thinks the ones after them are the worst ever and the ones before them are the dumbest ones ever. We all are products of the trials and struggles of our time.
I laugh when my mom can't figure out technology, she laughs at me when I struggle with basic housekeeping cause my robots broke down.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

There is a pretty big case for the whole "participation trophy" thing being to placate parents who couldn't stand not having exceptional children and NOT being about the childrens feelings.

Lots of ways of coming at those stereotypes and "my generation is tough, yours is soft". Every generation thinks the ones after them are the worst ever and the ones before them are the dumbest ones ever. We all are products of the trials and struggles of our time.
I laugh when my mom can't figure out technology, she laughs at me when I struggle with basic housekeeping cause my robots broke down.

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I respect your premise but I wasn't making a comparison in that regard. Just reporting how my experience was and how I see it now. This can just be my personal experience and I'm overthinking it, don't pay me no mind.