Is ranged support dps needed as a job type anymore?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sequora

Because most of the melee jobs are super challenging to play. Not having 100% uptime does not mean it’s difficult.

---

Yeah that's what I'm saying. And it's completely by design too, the current state of the physical ranged (and now summoner as well) is a result of very explicit and targeted simplifications to their gameplay. They were dumbed down, to put it bluntly.

Of course this has affected the melees too, after successive expansions of tweaks to timers, positionals, and combo breaking, they too are a far cry from their original difficulty. I'm not sure about 'super challenging'. The phys ranged in Heavensward were more difficult to play than melees now.

Melees just started from a harder baseline so they haven't really felt it yet. Maybe they will have their watershed moment once 1-2-3 combos get the PvP autocombo treatment.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Myon88

Yeah that's what I'm saying. And it's completely by design too, the current state of the physical ranged (and now summoner as well) is a result of very explicit and targeted simplifications to their gameplay. They were dumbed down, to put it bluntly.

Of course this has affected the melees too, after successive expansions of tweaks to timers, positionals, and combo breaking, they too are a far cry from their original difficulty. I'm not sure about 'super challenging'. The phys ranged in Heavensward were more difficult to play than melees now.

Melees just started from a harder baseline so they haven't really felt it yet. Maybe they will have their watershed moment once 1-2-3 combos get the PvP autocombo treatment.

---

I believe you missed the sarcasm in the post you responded to.

On a scale of 1 to 10 of challenging gameplay, rpdps is around a 1 and melee is around a 2.

Balancing around job difficulty is a joke in this game because none of the jobs are actually difficult, especially with the trend of simplifying everything even more.

Also pvp autocombo won't make a job any easier than it already is. If you can't press 3 buttons in a proper order then every job in this game is too difficult for you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thi

I believe you missed the sarcasm in the post you responded to.

On a scale of 1 to 10 of challenging gameplay, rpdps is around a 1 and melee is around a 2.

Balancing around job difficulty is a joke in this game because none of the jobs are actually difficult, especially with the trend of simplifying everything even more.

Also pvp autocombo won't make a job any easier than it already is. If you can't press 3 buttons in a proper order then every job in this game is too difficult for you.

---

That’s kinda ignoring the fact it’s not just 1-2-3 and done. Melee have just as much cooldown management as any other DPS. The fights themselves matter too. P4SP1 is probably the first fight I’ve ever felt the need to spreadsheet any job on just to approach useful numbers, and it’s because the combination of the tempo, the tight DPS check, and the consistent alignment of mechanics with raid windows forces you to hit a useful percentage of melee and caster uptime before a clear is even possible. I’d argue that it’s easier to reach that check on a ranged DPS but still demanding in general.

If fights slowed down a smidge and built in long stretches of ranged bait mechanics and more opportunities to use cc like interrupts you’d probably feel more impactful as a role. That’s what I feel is missing from encounter design. Your utility as a ranged DPS should matter more than other roles.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thi

I believe you missed the sarcasm in the post you responded to.

On a scale of 1 to 10 of challenging gameplay, rpdps is around a 1 and melee is around a 2.

Balancing around job difficulty is a joke in this game because none of the jobs are actually difficult, especially with the trend of simplifying everything even more.

Also pvp autocombo won't make a job any easier than it already is. If you can't press 3 buttons in a proper order then every job in this game is too difficult for you.

---

It’s not about the difficulty to play, it’s about the fact melee and caster are a harder playstyle and that means they should do more damage.

Look at it this way, let’s say they add gauss barrel back to the game BUT they don’t make it increase your damage dealt, it just adds a cast time to all your GCDs, why would a MCH ever press that? Conversely, let’s say BLM gets a button that removes their cast times and there’s no downside to pressing it and SAM gets a button that makes all their attacks ranged with no downside, why would they ever NOT have those stances on?

Do you see how that design makes no sense? Do you see how adding and removing range and cast times needs to come with some kind of benefit/drawback?

Again, the gap between dps could be smaller and MCH definitely needs to be higher, but the gap does need to exist for jobs that have range and mobility. The alternative would be bringing back the gauss barrel and they got rid of that for a reason, people picked up the ranged role for the free movement not to be a caster.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RaZz0r

you say that like other jobs are hard to play almost all jobs in ffxiv are pretty easy to play at a pretty decent level hell summoner can make a single button macro chain that is good enough to get purple parses.
Some might be a bit harder to master but that is not enough reason for some jobs to do several thousand less damage at the higher end just cause they are " support jobs "

---

Actually this is a fallicy. That video of the summoner "solo macro" is a lie. What is actually happening is a series of macros that copy bars over to make it seem like it is a single macro. The same thing could be accomplished on any job tbh.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

That’s kinda ignoring the fact it’s not just 1-2-3 and done. Melee have just as much cooldown management as any other DPS. The fights themselves matter too. P4SP1 is probably the first fight I’ve ever felt the need to spreadsheet any job on just to approach useful numbers, and it’s because the combination of the tempo, the tight DPS check, and the consistent alignment of mechanics with raid windows forces you to hit a useful percentage of melee and caster uptime before a clear is even possible. I’d argue that it’s easier to reach that check on a ranged DPS but still demanding in general.

---

I was playing tank, used 6 juicy ranged attack during the first clear.
It's actually the first content that requires melees to use melee attack to not lose a single GCDs.

But even then, I'm sure you could elaborate strategies to have a full uptime... Pretty sure the share can be done by 3 players now.
The difficult part that remain is the raid buff alignement, due to a much earlier clear, you now can't delay otherwise you'd lose 1 window of raid buff.

But that's optimization.

Agree with op limit break suggestion :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Anvaire

Actually this is a fallicy. That video of the summoner "solo macro" is a lie. What is actually happening is a series of macros that copy bars over to make it seem like it is a single macro. The same thing could be accomplished on any job tbh.

---

The original guide video was quite clear that the way to actually make it work, w/o major losses from clipping and drift, is to use hotbar copying. The new guide is even more clear, discussing the matter from the beginning. There's no "lie" beyond people failing to watch the entire video, misunderstanding what they're seeing, or being hyperbolic when discussing it.

And no, it's not something that could be done on any job, not to the same degree of success at any rate. The present SMN one-button macro chain needs a specific range of SpS to not innately drift just from the few places they couldn't prevent clips. Thus, any job with semi-random procs (BRD, BLM) or more nuanced optimization can't be one-buttoned to the same degree of effectiveness. People could always macro their rotations - the real issue exposed with summoner is how close to the skill ceiling one can get with a near-automated (just add mashing) setup.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cabalabob

It’s not about the difficulty to play, it’s about the fact melee and caster are a harder playstyle and that means they should do more damage.

Look at it this way, let’s say they add gauss barrel back to the game BUT they don’t make it increase your damage dealt, it just adds a cast time to all your GCDs, why would a MCH ever press that? Conversely, let’s say BLM gets a button that removes their cast times and there’s no downside to pressing it and SAM gets a button that makes all their attacks ranged with no downside, why would they ever NOT have those stances on?

Do you see how that design makes no sense? Do you see how adding and removing range and cast times needs to come with some kind of benefit/drawback?

---

Yes, we are free to move, but you have to remember that we are already paying this tax by dealing with mecanics in many high end content that can wipe the whole raid that melees or casters don't have to care about. Isn't this enough in terms of drawback ?
And when you see BLM or Monks coming with braindead rotations like the paradox one and still doing shit ton of damage, excuse me but this is not what I call a hard playstyle.

I don't think any of yall actualy inderstand how damage works so let's break this down. Dancer and bards, raid dps(which means the buffs they provide to the team) currently make, esp dnc incredibly strong. When in a "bad party their rDps suffers, they can easily pass up other teammates in damage, on the huge end a dnc partner to a good Sam, and the other party supports, can put dancers rDps at just .3 dps below a blm and Sam, 2 of the strongest jobs in the game, bards are only .4 dps below Sam's and blm. They are actually both slightly stronger than rdm, and barely weaker than the strongest classes. The only difference is they support and buff the party, so if your team members aren't very good then it makes your bard/dancer look bad. We had a mnk, with dnc partner being in 7th place on the agro list with no deaths, in p3s. That makes the dnc look bad and on the next pull the dnc adjusted. Their damage and party buffs are in the best places they have ever been and because of this they are extremely useful in every fight, how do they do all this damage by support their party. So yes they are support dps and they are amazing at it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gaethan_Tessula

The original guide video was quite clear that the way to actually make it work, w/o major losses from clipping and drift, is to use hotbar copying. The new guide is even more clear, discussing the matter from the beginning. There's no "lie" beyond people failing to watch the entire video, misunderstanding what they're seeing, or being hyperbolic when discussing it.

And no, it's not something that could be done on any job, not to the same degree of success at any rate. The present SMN one-button macro chain needs a specific range of SpS to not innately drift just from the few places they couldn't prevent clips. Thus, any job with semi-random procs (BRD, BLM) or more nuanced optimization can't be one-buttoned to the same degree of effectiveness. People could always macro their rotations - the real issue exposed with summoner is how close to the skill ceiling one can get with a near-automated (just add mashing) setup.

---

The point is that people are claiming that its a single macro when it isn't that is where the misconception and the lie lies. Saying its a one macro button press has given rise the erroneous belief that SMN rotation can be fit within a singular macro which is wrong. Incidently, i'd like to see how this macro fares with savage and more difficult fights than extreme 1 - because while optimisation is rather low, and does need improving on smn, there is some optimisation that the macro cannot account for. In terms of blm they can be one buttoned, but i agree that it would hold the same effectiveness.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xiaoki

The buffs that Bard and Dancer, while nice, do not compensate for their poor DPS.

Bard and Summoner are very close in rDPS. Between Red Mage, Bard and Summoner there's only about a 1% difference. And between Red Mage and the lowest rDPS (Machinist) there is around 3% difference. But the difference between Red Mage and the next highest DPS, which is Ninja, is around 4%.
That's a big difference because the difference between Ninja and top DPS (Black Mage) is only a little more then the difference between Red Mage, Bard and Summoner.

---

I still think this whole argument of jobs having more dps then others is moot.
Your raiding with a team. Range DPS like Bard and Dancer are providing damage buffs to the team so why would they not lose some damage in return? or would you rather you just always take them in every party because of their support and buffed up new DPS? When I complete a fight I do not care about if I have higher DPS then Melee or a caster I did my job I buffed them we cleared done. thats all there is to it. People care far to much about damage numbers on jobs. They have it so you take one of each you get the damage buff for the party as well I dont see an issue just people complaining that they dont do as much damage as people who cant be on the boss at all times which it legit doesnt matter. Play your job practice get the clear done you did your job. Its really no different then gearing in this game. Gear serves no purpose but to speed up re clears and even with it you still have to know your job and have skill and have learned the fights to clear them. This game is extremely balanced out and theres a reason why things are how they are.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Easayia

I still think this whole argument of jobs having more dps then others is moot.
Your raiding with a team. Range DPS like Bard and Dancer are providing damage buffs to the team so why would they not lose some damage in return? or would you rather you just always take them in every party because of their support and buffed up new DPS?

---

Because the culmination of those dmg buffs add so little its more beneficial to just take another high DPS class instead. For simplicity: if SAM does 100 dps and Dancer does 75 DPS, then for there to be a benefit to bring a Dancer the buffs need to add at least 25 DPS. Otherwise just bring 2 SAMs. Right now the support buffs are turning that 75 into like an 85 once buffs are added to it. When you see those rankings people keep posting with Dancer at the bottom, that is already including the Dancer's raids buffs. If you want to see how bad their personal DMG actually is switch it over to nDPS and its way lower. Dancer is at the bottom for solo / personal DPS and next to last when all their buffs are taken into account too in groups. So what's the point? Bard is in a similar boat. The only thing making them not completely overshadowed by every other class is the 1% stat buff for having any ranged role.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Anvaire

The point is that people are claiming that its a single macro when it isn't that is where the misconception and the lie lies.

---

Your post I responded to, and the notion of a "lie" existing here at all, carries the implied accusation that the maker of the original video was deceptive. They were not. They explained exactly how the setup works in the video. "Lie" is a very strong word that carries connotations not only of untruthfulness, but intent.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Anvaire

Saying its a one macro button press has given rise the erroneous belief that SMN rotation can be fit within a singular macro which is wrong.

---

See the "people failing to watch the entire video, misunderstanding what they're seeing, or being hyperbolic when discussing it" line of my post. Again, the video creator was never deceptive - the swap setup does indeed reduce the job to being played with one button, at a level of effectiveness in the top quartile in many fights, and the video explains how it accomplishes that. Misrepresentation by third parties does not make the original a "lie." Furthermore, the difference between being literally played via macro and "just add mashing" via hotbar swaps is trivial. That the job can still be played nearly-automated at a high level reveals the ankle-deepness of its depth, and is a major ding against its design.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Anvaire

Incidentally, I'd like to see how this macro fares with savage and more difficult fights than extreme 1 - because while optimization is rather low, and does need improving on smn, there is some optimization that the macro cannot account for. In terms of blm they can be one buttoned, but I agree that it would hold the same effectiveness.

---

The setup as presented will do worse in fights requiring particular ranges of spell-speed to optimize (e.g., P2S), as it requires its own particular speed-speed to not drift or break. Because that's largely the extent of SMN's optimization right now - FF11 style gear swaps to get the spell-spell needed to not drift the rotation because of boss jumps.

The one-button-setup could be fixed for some fights via altering the timings on some of the swaps. Though the effort involved would probably not be worth the effort, except maybe to make a point. Such a fix probably wouldn't work for all fights though: limitations on macros likely render the setup permanently inefficient on fights that need exceptionally high spell-speed (the hotbar swaps won't go fast enough to keep up with the shorter GCD).

I do not consider this much of a silver lining for SMN.

that 1% is why all this argument is moot. you take 1 of each dps type because you get the buff people saying you could just take another DPS in thier place dont know what they are talking about. You cant do that because you lose the full damage buff for the party why would you do that?

your getting the 1% plus their damage buff to the rest of the party which makes up for the dps loss.....

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...1T3cSwh-ij.png

I read an interesting thread in a Chinese Forum concluded that EW is the most balanced expansion FF14 has ever been. The gap between melee/caster DPS and ranged physical DPS in EW has been reduced drastically.

In patch 5.05, the gap between melee and ranged is 9.817139508
in patch 6.05 the gap between melee and ranged is 4.83723325

Source

As for uptimes being easy, I think uptime strategy requires extra effort to plan out and precise positioning to execute. Those uptime strats don't come up at day 1. I'm actually quite okay with rewarding melee with higher dps

Regarding casters, I agree that if SE keeps giving mobility options for caster dps, they should keep narrowing the gap between physical and magical ranged.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aword3213

As for uptimes being easy, I think uptime strategy requires extra effort to plan out and precise positioning to execute. Those uptime strats don't come up at day 1. I'm actually quite okay with rewarding melee with higher dps

---

Most of uptime strats happens day 1.
The only exception was E8S, light rampant that needed a bit more brain matter.

For this tier, we haven't changed anything in my group because we straight-up started with great uptime.
P1S is full melee uptime, P2S if full melee uptime.
P3S only requires to bait a big aoe and that's all you need to do for melee uptime.
P4SP1 is a bit more tricky back in week 1 but now you can still manage a very good uptime.
P4SP2 you don't lose a lot of melee uptime, you could lose a GCD or two but that's really it.