FFXIV Has the Population to Support an ELO system for Duty Finder / Party Finder

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

If this is how you act when you give advice I can see how you get pushback when you give it.

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There’s that fragility

This would go against SE's design philosophy of having the good players carry the bad ones.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

If this is how you act when you give advice I can see how you get pushback when you give it.

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If you're constantly getting offended by advice... common denominator.

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Originally Posted by Novae

So basically, OP wants less and less people to queue with... just to finish a dungeon a few minutes faster.

That's errr hmmm, interesting?

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That's why I stated with the current population of the game.

I haven't seen a queue longer than 5 minutes as a DPS since Endwalker. I also wouldn't mind a longer queue because you can do other things while you wait. If you get stuck in a 45 minute Dead Ends because the group can't not stand in the bad and die, you are stuck there unless you eat a 30 minute penalty.

Then you get the plus side of limiting people by ELO in PF and not having to deal with losing hours trying to clear harder content with people who have no business trying it.

I've seen far too many stories and screenshots from the "Tales from Duty Finder" thread, on here and Reddit, where they are trying to pass themselves off as the good guy being attacked for giving advice when in fact they were being a flaming prat.

I'm not saying you have to coddle the randoms you're with, but there is a way to be helpful and precise while also being civil. Too many people fail at that and seemingly are incapable of realizing they may be part of the problem.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

I've seen far too many stories and screenshots from the duty finder thread, on here and reddit, where the OP is trying to pass themselves off as the good guy being attacked for giving advice when in fact they were being a flaming prat.

I'm not saying you have to coddle the randoms you're with, but there is a way to be helpful and precise while also being civil. Too many people fail at that and seemingly are incapable of realizing they may be part of the problem.

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I'm the OP and I somehow feel you got me confused with someone else.

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Originally Posted by Thi

I'm the OP and I somehow feel you got me confused with someone else.

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Sorry for the confusion! I meant the posters in the "Tales from Duty Finder" threads. That wasn't directed at you personally. :X Tweaked it to hopefully avoid more confusion.

Lol what a weird idea. Lol… Might as well just set different server instance for every tier of players based on gear level or some other arbitrary metrics so the top percentile players never have to deal, interact or even see the filthy casual peasants?

I think is just easier to find others and que together. Randoms will be random, some runs are bound to be quick and smooth, others not so much.

This isn't something that would likely get any support. The design philosophy of the game sort of revolves around better players being able to carry weaker players. This holds true for everything outside of content with hard enrage mechanics.

My suggestion to you is to queue for roulettes with two or players that you know. Duty finder players will come from all play backgrounds and not all of them will know things that may seem straight-forward and second nature to you (things like rotations, when to use AoE, how to handle commonly used mechanics). Good luck with future endeavors.

like MidnightEquinox suggested earlier I think an advance hall of novice would be a good start for most people. I personally think it would be much effective being mandatory, but that's not really a popular opinion lol.

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Originally Posted by Seiori

like MidnightEquinox suggested earlier I think an advance hall of novice would be a good start for most people. I personally think it would be much effective being mandatory, but that's not really a popular opinion lol.

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I do agree that an Advanced Hall of Novice should be a thing and mandatory.

I also feel like you need to be able to clear the SSS Dummy (as poorly tuned as they are) at a minimum before being able to enter its respective savage fight

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Originally Posted by Thi

I do agree that an Advanced Hall of Novice should be a thing and mandatory.

I also feel like you need to be able to clear the SSS Dummy (as poorly tuned as they are) at a minimum before being able to enter its respective savage fight

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What does savage have to do with Elo? You can already control who's in your savage PF and kick/reform without them if they're a problem.

You ARE aware that if SE somehow had an ELO number for everyone, they'd intentionally make sure a very good player was paired with 3 terrible ones in DF dungeons, so that she could carry them?

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Originally Posted by Jennah

You ARE aware that if SE somehow had an ELO number for everyone, they'd intentionally make sure a very good player was paired with 3 terrible ones in DF dungeons, so that she could carry them?

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Sadly that probably is the truth isn't it.

???? Just make a party with friends or out of a discord filled with people of your amazing caliber. Literally just have friends. Why would you-why would anyone...please go make friends.

I'm genuinely curious why "Form a premade party" isn't a more reasonable and accessible solution to this supposed 'problem' in comparison to implementing an ELO system into a low-stakes PVE game.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

What does savage have to do with Elo? You can already control who's in your savage PF and kick/reform without them if they're a problem.

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I think that's just a separate suggestion, unrelated to the OP's ELO suggestion.

I've heard the SSS dummies are very oddly tuned for some classes, though, but I don't see an inherent problem with the idea.

I would unsub tomorrow if that came to FF14. That is antithetical to everything this MMO stands for or ateast that is what the devs say when they do nothing about ACT and percentiles.

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Originally Posted by Thi

That's why I stated with the current population of the game.

I haven't seen a queue longer than 5 minutes as a DPS since Endwalker. I also wouldn't mind a longer queue because you can do other things while you wait. If you get stuck in a 45 minute Dead Ends because the group can't not stand in the bad and die, you are stuck there unless you eat a 30 minute penalty.

Then you get the plus side of limiting people by ELO in PF and not having to deal with losing hours trying to clear harder content with people who have no business trying it.

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It's great that you have short queues but what about people who don't have that luck? Better yet, what happens during those times where the populace starts to get light a little and certain queues start getting affected as well?

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

I'm genuinely curious why "Form a premade party" isn't a more reasonable and accessible solution to this supposed 'problem' in comparison to implementing an ELO system into a low-stakes PVE game.

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Require effort, social skills and I guess we can argue that also require certain degree of compromise (if we are talking about premade with trusted players of course. A premade pug is still a pug, certain other MMO has filters/ranks and how good that run will go is still a coin toss). Click to do X is just that convenient compare to anything else.

I support this OP, good idea.

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Originally Posted by Averax

We don't support the Electric Light Orchestra in this house

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Don't bring me down

Call of Duty Finder

We have ascended.

You're idea is terrible and you should feel bad.

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Originally Posted by VirusOnline

Call of Duty Finder

We have ascended.

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More like Rainbow Six Finder.

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Originally Posted by Driavna

Require effort, social skills and I guess we can argue that also require certain degree of compromise (if we are talking about premade with trusted players of course. A premade pug is still a pug, certain other MMO has filters/ranks and how good that run will go is still a coin toss). Click to do X is just that convenient compare to anything else.

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All of this, and the fact the hardest boss of all when doing pre-made is lining up everyone schedules. As for a PF pug, your most likely going to get a group just like you did if you just did DF.

And what if I'm crap at the game but still want to play with my friends who are better than me who are willing to put up with my subpar gameplay?

In your scenario it would be "screw that, make new friends".

How about...

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Wait for it...

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No.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

'Toxic Casuals' are casual players that choose to significantly value their personal experience over contributing to their team. This usually manifests in refusal to learn their role/job at endgame, AFKing in content, griefing, using 'alternative playstyles' and just generally having a really bad attitude when they're questioned or don't get their way. They exist, but they're not as common as people on the forums tend to believe.

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Are you confusing "refusal to learn" with "refusal to optimize"? I have been playing regularly since March 2020 and have never encountered an endgame player who did not know how to play their role. It's fine if someone isn't playing optimally in duty finder content, and if you think it isn't then that's a failing on your end. It doesn't matter if you have to spend an extra 5-10 minutes in content because some people aren't playing optimally. Toxic casualism is a myth elitists use to try and stigmatize healthy people who don't take video games seriously. AFKing in content and griefing are what trolls do, not casual players. And I don't even know what 'alternative playstyles' means.

Unhealthy people who take this game seriously (i.e., "elites"), are the only people I see spewing toxicity. They get upset when things don't go their way, as if anything that happens in the game matters.

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Originally Posted by Saimeren

And what if I'm crap at the game but still want to play with my friends who are better than me who are willing to put up with my subpar gameplay?

In your scenario it would be "screw that, make new friends".

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As a pre-made that isn't an issue, as they choose to run with you. If they needed to fill any slots in DF it would pull based on lowest ELO.

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Originally Posted by AbysmalDuck

More like Rainbow Six Finder.

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why'd you have to remind me how they killed the casual gamemode with the hidden mmr...

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Originally Posted by Sacred-Oblivion

Are you confusing "refusal to learn" with "refusal to optimize"? I have been playing regularly since March 2020 and have never encountered an endgame player who did not know how to play their role. It's fine if someone isn't playing optimally in duty finder content, and if you think it isn't then that's a failing on your end. It doesn't matter if you have to spend an extra 5-10 minutes in content because some people aren't playing optimally. Toxic casualism is a myth elitists use to try and stigmatize healthy people who don't take video games seriously. AFKing in content and griefing are what trolls do, not casual players. And I don't even know what 'alternative playstyles' means.

Unhealthy people who take this game seriously (i.e., "elites"), are the only people I see spewing toxicity. They get upset when things don't go their way, as if anything that happens in the game matters.

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not only is littleimp probably the furthest from an elitist, you also seem to misunderstand what they're saying, like, the majority of their posts in these topics are berating the players that take DF content too seriously and yet you're of the assumption that they're that type of player lol
what they're saying is correct

however, an extra 5-10 minutes add up and usually show there's at least one person in the party that isn't pulling their weight, and, if we're being honest, what imp in this context is talking about would add more than 10 minutes to a short dungeon
toxic casualism is where people are actively defending and excusing people not really playing, where people are saying crap like "you pull it you tank it", where people abuse the kick function over nothing, where people spam lvl 1 spells in lvl 90 content and get defended
that is toxic casualism

I don't "take this game seriously", but I value my time and I respect people's times when I queue up for content and that's quite literally the least someone should expect of anyone and yet, those players don't even do that due to them being self-centered and their self-centeredness being enabled

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

If this is how you act when you give advice I can see how you get pushback when you give it.

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so I was correct, thank you for confirming ;)
the majority of people are thankful for any kind of advice, thank you very much, but there are also people like you who get upset over a little tip for no reason

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Originally Posted by Sacred-Oblivion

Are you confusing "refusal to learn" with "refusal to optimize"? I have been playing regularly since March 2020 and have never encountered an endgame player who did not know how to play their role. It's fine if someone isn't playing optimally in duty finder content, and if you think it isn't then that's a failing on your end. It doesn't matter if you have to spend an extra 5-10 minutes in content because some people aren't playing optimally. Toxic casualism is a myth elitists use to try and stigmatize healthy people who don't take video games seriously. AFKing in content and griefing are what trolls do, not casual players. And I don't even know what 'alternative playstyles' means.

Unhealthy people who take this game seriously (i.e., "elites"), are the only people I see spewing toxicity. They get upset when things don't go their way, as if anything that happens in the game matters.

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There is a huge gulf between refusing to learn their job and refusing to optimize.

A DPS who does less damage than the avg healer or tank in my opinion is someone who has refused to learn their role. At that point your better off having another tank or healer because they can at least offer more survivability at no damage loss.

Generally these are players who only single target on aoe pulls or don't keep their GCD rolling.

I wouldn't consider pressing a skill every 2.5 seconds or using AOE optimizing.

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Originally Posted by Azuri

Ironically, you've pretty much described 90% of roulette content in XIV right now.

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You are absolutely right, roulettes are usually 5-15 mins. But I know you get my point.

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Originally Posted by Sacred-Oblivion

Are you confusing "refusal to learn" with "refusal to optimize"? I have been playing regularly since March 2020 and have never encountered an endgame player who did not know how to play their role. It's fine if someone isn't playing optimally in duty finder content, and if you think it isn't then that's a failing on your end. It doesn't matter if you have to spend an extra 5-10 minutes in content because some people aren't playing optimally.

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I was defining a term, not making an attack on anyone. I don't understand why you seem so inflamed by it.

We're not talking about optimization. We're talking about fundamental issues such as:

1. Not using AoE attacks
2. Doing 0 DPS as a healer
3. Failing to utilize the majority of your kit as a healer, leading to frequent wipes
4. Not using mitigation as a Tank
5. Failing to hold aggro as a Tank

"Optimization" is typically something that impacts smaller margins, whereas many of these types of issues cause much more significant differences (like factors of 2-3x).

Alternative playstyles are when someone knows the 'proper' way to play, but intentionally chooses not to engage with the game in that way. This covers things like job-stoneless players, "pure" healers, WARs that refuse to main-tank, refusing to use certain abilities etc.

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Originally Posted by Sacred-Oblivion

Toxic casualism is a myth elitists use to try and stigmatize healthy people who don't take video games seriously. AFKing in content and griefing are what trolls do, not casual players. And I don't even know what 'alternative playstyles' means.

Unhealthy people who take this game seriously (i.e., "elites"), are the only people I see spewing toxicity. They get upset when things don't go their way, as if anything that happens in the game matters.

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Clearly, it isn't a myth. I just defined a term for someone, and even stated that toxic casuals are rare and that the problem is over-exaggerated. You responded with weird veiled insults and otherwise aggressive language, clearly coming from a place of strong emotion towards the issue.

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Originally Posted by Sacred-Oblivion

Toxic casualism is a myth elitists use to try and stigmatize healthy people who don't take video games seriously. AFKing in content and griefing are what trolls do, not casual players. And I don't even know what 'alternative playstyles' means.

Unhealthy people who take this game seriously (i.e., "elites"), are the only people I see spewing toxicity. They get upset when things don't go their way, as if anything that happens in the game matters.

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I was sitting in a Min-ilvl, No Echo PF for Lakshmi EX the other night, filled mostly with new players who wanted to experience old fights rather than faceroll them unsync'd. I was looking for some nostalgia and variety, and was willing to teach mechanics. The PF was properly labeled as Sync'd, Min-ilvl, and No Echo. We get a RPR come in as the final person to fill the party. They immediately open up with "if you're looking to farm doggos, it's easier unsync." A little annoying, as the PF was explicitly labeled just about the opposite of unsync, but it's technically a true statement. Party leader tells them that we're not looking to farm, we're here for the experience. Someone else chips in that she doesn't feel like she's earned the rewards of a fight unless she beats it MINE, while I tell the new players that they must Vril chanchala'd attacks from Lakshmi that will hit them, as well as her hug ultimate.

Not sure whether it was the other player expressing her personal opinion about when she's satisfied with getting rewards from a fight, or my use of the word "must" in explaining mechanics, but the RPR claps back with "who do you think you are, to tell other people how they should play!?" Queue me and bunch of other people getting angry and starting a fight with the RPR (not my finest moment, no). The RPR then starts ranting about toxic elitism, accuses us of enforcing our playstyle on him because we won't unsync the fight (he joined our clearly labeled MINE party), accuses us of trying to gatekeep him from a mount, and just generally makes the entire experience unpleasant. Especially for the new players caught in the middle.

After we clear the fight (it's still Lakshmi, so quick clear despite some mess), most of the group (including the RPR) leave, despite the original plan being to do the rest of the StB EX's. I then learn from the party leader that this RPR has been a continual pest, having come into her MINE parties on several preceding nights. Every time, he tries to demand the group run the content unsync'd instead.

That's toxic casualism - entering into a group explicitly trying to do content for a challenge, and loudly proclaiming that they're gatekeeping, no-fun-allowed tryhards. Especially when a spotlight is shined on their unwillingness to put in the bare minimum (like using a role action to not instantly die). It's not common, but it very much exists.

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Originally Posted by Thi

This games biggest issue that there are huge differences in the playstyle of players and they are forced to group with each other unless you go in a pre-made.

What I propose is to bring in an ELO system to this game that ranks your individual performance and groups you with similar players.

• If you are an optimizer and play your job at peak performance? You get grouped with other people of the same mindset.
  
• If you are competent and can keep your GCD rolling? (and thus above average sadly) You get grouped with similar players who also do the same.
  
• If you don't care about combat and just want to play the game? You get to play with all the other people with the same mindset.

To be fair in this system everyone would start at the middle and would go up or down based on individual performance in duties per role.

After some time, the player base is sorted out and Elitists and Toxic Casuals will never have to interact with each other again.

As an extra bonus you could set your Party Finder to only allow Rank x-x to preemptively filter and make less trap parties in PF.

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Just gonna say, I am so glad that the Dev Team will never code in this exclusionist garbage.

Don’t want to deal with other randoms? Please build your own party.

A large portion of the player base has worked so hard and gnashed their teeth enough to keep people from knowing/confronting them about poor performance so they could play with people better than them(read be carried). If they did this, it would wash all that hard work down the drain.

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Originally Posted by Sacred-Oblivion

Are you confusing "refusal to learn" with "refusal to optimize"? I have been playing regularly since March 2020 and have never encountered an endgame player who did not know how to play their role. It's fine if someone isn't playing optimally in duty finder content, and if you think it isn't then that's a failing on your end. It doesn't matter if you have to spend an extra 5-10 minutes in content because some people aren't playing optimally. Toxic casualism is a myth elitists use to try and stigmatize healthy people who don't take video games seriously. AFKing in content and griefing are what trolls do, not casual players. And I don't even know what 'alternative playstyles' means.

Unhealthy people who take this game seriously (i.e., "elites"), are the only people I see spewing toxicity. They get upset when things don't go their way, as if anything that happens in the game matters.

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The irony of this post is astounding.

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Originally Posted by Thi

This games biggest issue that there are huge differences in the playstyle of players and they are forced to group with each other unless you go in a pre-made.

What I propose is to bring in an ELO system to this game that ranks your individual performance and groups you with similar players.

• If you are an optimizer and play your job at peak performance? You get grouped with other people of the same mindset.
  
• If you are competent and can keep your GCD rolling? (and thus above average sadly) You get grouped with similar players who also do the same.
  
• If you don't care about combat and just want to play the game? You get to play with all the other people with the same mindset.

To be fair in this system everyone would start at the middle and would go up or down based on individual performance in duties per role.

After some time, the player base is sorted out and Elitists and Toxic Casuals will never have to interact with each other again.

As an extra bonus you could set your Party Finder to only allow Rank x-x to preemptively filter and make less trap parties in PF.

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Hard pass. One of the fundamental pillars of this game's design is getting people to play together, regardless of skill level. Ranking systems in other games have only served to encourage exclusionary behaviors, to the game's detriment. Party finder's what it is for a reason and there's always the option to create statics. If people aren't able to perform as people expect in them, then they get the boot. General open-community play should never be restricted.