Trends in content types and faux difficulty

It is this way because the devs dont have the benefit of having the time to produce lots of content.

will it be any different at the release of 2.0 ?.. i dont think so.

suffice to say you should probably just play another game... a good one lol

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Originally Posted by Jokerz

And you support content where loot is based on this? I'm not a loot whore myself but I realize the current endgame content is completely half-assed in implementation. I mean speed runs...that in itself is a horrible concept, low drop-rates are frustrating and encourage spamming of content(just read up on voidwatch in FFXI) it's not an issue with the player base, it's SE's recent lack of creativity. I sincerely hope when 2.0 comes around some lasting content will be implemented however, and I'm holding on to the belief that current content is to tide us over.

Really I'm hoping to see more events where I build towards something, or maybe go the monster hunter route where the only drops we receive is monster parts or something, and we have to find a crafter to synthesize the parts into gear. Or gather numerous armor pieces and having them patch together to complete the piece.

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Well it shouldn't all be like that, as that sort of environment isnt meant for everyone. Not all of us like to gamble, not all of us enjoy playing odds, and no matter how you slice it, you will lose more often than you will win. Its a rush for some ppl (myself included) but I also recognize that it is hell for most ppl. There should be a balance between luck-based content and guaranteed reward-based content. I think the token system that someone mentioned here (Garuda's current system) is a great great compromise between the two. But honestly i'd prefer that they have exclusively luck oriented content and exclusively guaranteed reward content. That way the prestige of luck-based items is still held up, and the difficulty of certain dungeons can be increased significantly in favor of guaranteed drops. There should be both types to appease all the gamers out there.

I think its just an issue for SE right now because jobs aren't quite balanced yet. Garuda was a good step in the right direction in terms of challenging content, so hopefully they build on that and deliver difficult fights/dungeons without the luck factor. Or at the very least, make the drop percentage more reasonable (10-30%)

tldr?...................

Agreed OP. I do not much like the direction this game is going in. If this is what FFXIV is going to be about...spamming crap with a chance at something that rewards luck not skill...then I don't think I will continue with it. I am waiting of course until 2.0 and have hopes that it will turn itself around. If not...bb heh.

I have a good feeling though they will turn it around with 2.0 :)

If Legendary weapons are rewards from getting lucky with drops instead of skill...hell to the no. I really enjoy using skill to obtain stuff in the games I play instead of getting lucky by doing something easy yet extremely tedious and boring. I refuse to do Hamlet Defense (It is stupid, sorry..more instanced stuff..not interested ><) and spamming CC and AV...it gets old..FAST.

The only issue with waiting on doing some of this content, is (To my knowledge) it's not guaranteed to be here after 2.0.
If it's not here after 2.0, this is the only time you may be able to get the equipment.

And, please do correct me if I'm wrong.

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Originally Posted by aikawananase

tldr?...................

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Glad you felt the need to post when you have nothing to add to the discussion. Really.

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Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna

What is all this talk about effort and skill? What a joke. When you have the majority of the playerbase exploiting primals, exploiting safe zones with all blm parties, class stacking for easy wins due to poor boss mechanics, you have no business talking about rewarding effort and skill. On the contrary, the playerbase avoids effort and skill like the plague. Theyd rather faceroll blm parties than die for hours strategizing. Theyd rather abuse poor mechanics than try to beat a fight as intended. What a joke.

The only thing im reading is "give me loot". Its what it always boils down to. You cannot pretend there is a great amount of skill and effort involved. Therr is if you take up the challenge but a majority dont. Frankly that kind of cheesy and abusive gameplay shouldn't be rewarded with easy loot. Jus sayin.

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And so we should punish players that don't abuse exploits and/or class stacking since it will likely take them longer to complete the content the first time, cause once they finally do, the boss at the end of the dungeon isn't Miser's Mistress, it's the RNG, and there is NO strategy for beating him. My ls (the one Sol is in) was first on our server to clear Aurum Vale, we never stacked MNKs, our first 5 chest speedrun was with PLD WAR MNK DRG BRD WHM WHM BLM (every job is represented at least once). But when we complete content as it was intended 400+ times (w/ 300+ speedruns), the content goes stale really fast, I enjoyed the dungeon the first 200 times, but after that I felt betrayed. I personally don't have a SINGLE piece of DL (and I showed up for 99% of our runs - it was not out of lack of attendance), our ls hasn't seen a SINGLE body drop, not once. So yes, we want content that rewards skill rather than luck, that doesn't need to be beaten to death to see results. With that system in place, who can blame people for wanting to take the easy way out.

I'm holding my breath till 2.0 in the hopes that these are TEMPORARY (though admittedly poor) measures to prolong content, and not the ultimate direction Yoshi has in mind for FFXIV. Cause if this IS the course he has set for us post 2.0, there won't be anything keeping me here, and I really really WANT to like this game, but when almost EVERYTHING needs to be beaten into the ground in order to obtain said loot, and exploiters and PUGs that can clear the content w/ half as much effort by stacking particular classes, it makes it really hard for me to be motivated to "roll the dice" when every side of the die I'm rolling has Darkmatter etched on the side of it.

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Originally Posted by Nullie

Do you just assume people "desperately" want them or do you think they just want to be rewarded for playing the game. Do you think they want to be prepared when new content comes out instead of having to worry about doing a bunch? You say it yourself. There's no content. So what else can you do? Stand around? Log off? If people choose to play the game like that they should. There's nothing wrong with that.

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No. By all means, do the content over and over. I'm just saying that you can't blame the developers that you played the same content over and over in a matter of days. Why not take your time. If you don't want to constantly do the runs, then don't.

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Originally Posted by Nullie

Is there something wrong with having 0 leve allowances? Is that something you're not suppose to ever reach? Like the real zero is 50 and you need to take a break there. I don't quite understand that. Some people do things differently than you do. I have full 99 leves all the time. Should someone say to me "Hey, Stop doing what you're doing and use some of those leves. There are people out there who have 0 you know and you're wasting them." Sorry, that doesn't really make sense to me. I don't ever stop and think "Do I need to do this raid for 12 hours." If I did, it would be like "Do I need to play this game period? What do I get out of it? Nothing? Might as well not play and just quit."

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Sorry if I'm not clarifying this well. I meant that the people who rush through the game will always rush through the game, regardless of how much content there is. It was just an example. I myself am half way through my leves because I've just been spamming leves for the last few days. If I want to stop, I will. Those that don't want to stop will keep going. If the developers add more content, those that didn't stop won't stop and players like me will see something more to do later on.

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Originally Posted by Nullie

Uhm, by my book it does. If I flip a coin once and its tails I'm out of luck. If I choose to flip it another 999,999 times I still have those chances of getting a heads. I think you mean the odds don't increase. Not the chances.

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Right. Each time you flip the coin, the odds remain the same for each individual flip. If you get 2 tails in a row, it doesn't increase the last 2 flips to be 100% heads. Meaning regardless of how many times you do Garuda, you aren't increasing your odds. So might as well take your time with it.

But I say all this in hopes that people realize that for now, those are just epeen items.

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Originally Posted by Sol_Aureus

By that logic why play an MMO at all? Why get gear? There's nothing to use it on other than what you're already doing to get that gear.

But that's what MMOs like this are. We as players constantly chase the carrot at the end of the stick trying to get the best gear, or be the best in PVP, or clear the hardest content. Getting stuff is fun.

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Getting stuff is fun. But you can't leave everything up to the developers to make it fun. If you push yourself too hard, it stops being fun and becomes a chore. Why not do a normal run every once in a while? God forbid you actually enjoy the journey instead of the destination.

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Originally Posted by MrKupo

Getting stuff is fun. But you can't leave everything up to the developers to make it fun. If you push yourself too hard, it stops being fun and becomes a chore. Why not do a normal run every once in a while? God forbid you actually enjoy the journey instead of the destination.

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But that's my point. I want to enjoy the journey. Making dungeons spamable with abysmally low drop rates is counterintuitive to that end.

I could only do a couple runs every other day to simulate the lockout, yes, but then it gets really old because of the abysmally low drop rate. Having a 1-3 day lockout with higher drop rates makes it so the dungeon doesn't become stale and people will still want to continue doing it because there's a decent chance at loot.

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Originally Posted by MrKupo

No. By all means, do the content over and over. I'm just saying that you can't blame the developers that you played the same content over and over in a matter of days. Why not take your time. If you don't want to constantly do the runs, then don't.

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I'm sorry, but that response does not answer what you said. You said you had an issue with people who do these. "But my real issue with this whole argument is the fact that people need to get these items in the first place. What do people so desperately need these items for to do 200 speed runs at any given time?" It's not about blaming the devs. You have an issue with people who play the game like that. Why? But your post just now says you don't have a problem with it.

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Originally Posted by MrKupo

Sorry if I'm not clarifying this well. I meant that the people who rush through the game will always rush through the game, regardless of how much content there is. It was just an example. I myself am half way through my leves because I've just been spamming leves for the last few days. If I want to stop, I will. Those that don't want to stop will keep going. If the developers add more content, those that didn't stop won't stop and players like me will see something more to do later on.

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But you're telling people to take their time because they'll tire themselves out. What if taking your time does tire you out? You think its the best route to go. What if I want to rush it for other reasons? What if I can only play so much a day and want to get content done asap before new stuff is out? What if I have other things I need to do? What if I don't have time to take my time? That's the whole point.

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Originally Posted by MrKupo

Right. Each time you flip the coin, the odds remain the same for each individual flip. If you get 2 tails in a row, it doesn't increase the last 2 flips to be 100% heads. Meaning regardless of how many times you do Garuda, you aren't increasing your odds. So might as well take your time with it.

But I say all this in hopes that people realize that for now, those are just epeen items.

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Again, why do you have to take your time? But lets use this method right now. Say I want a Garuda Axe. Lets take the take your time method and the coin flip method. I flip the coin 20 consecutive times and not win. The next time I take my time. 3 wins. Nothing. The next day 3 wins. Nothing. The next day nothing. Lets say on the 21st time I get the axe on both occasions. It would have taken me 7 days to get it while it would have been day 2 the other way. Now how many more attempts do I have to get the axe? None. Now I could take 100 times to get the axe. How long would that take by taking your time before it becomes to the point to where you want to rip your hair out? I just don't understand how taking your time helps with anything. I'm sorry.

I kinda agree with OP.
The funny thing is, I don't feel like the game has changed that much from spamming leve's and leve links. It almost seems like the exact same system just with a different coat of paint.

I too hope in 2.0 they make you wait before heading right back into a dungeon. Its nice for things like toto rak seal farming. But I hate doing dungeons for the reasons people state above. All that effort would mean (and usually does mean) nothing. I WANT to believe these things are so everyone can experience current content before its gone/altered. Since it will have to be changed somewhat, I doubt they'll have a nice new pretty world and be like "Oh yeah and here's these old graphic/repetitive asset dungeons." So until 2.0 Its hard to justify being pissed about it.

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Originally Posted by Nullie

I'm sorry, but that response does not answer what you said. You said you had an issue with people who do these. "But my real issue with this whole argument is the fact that people need to get these items in the first place. What do people so desperately need these items for to do 200 speed runs at any given time?" It's not about blaming the devs. You have an issue with people who play the game like that. Why? But your post just now says you don't have a problem with it.


But you're telling people to take their time because they'll tire themselves out. What if taking your time does tire you out? You think its the best route to go. What if I want to rush it for other reasons? What if I can only play so much a day and want to get content done asap before new stuff is out? What if I have other things I need to do? What if I don't have time to take my time? That's the whole point.



Again, why do you have to take your time? But lets use this method right now. Say I want a Garuda Axe. Lets take the take your time method and the coin flip method. I flip the coin 20 consecutive times and not win. The next time I take my time. 3 wins. Nothing. The next day 3 wins. Nothing. The next day nothing. Lets say on the 21st time I get the axe on both occasions. It would have taken me 7 days to get it while it would have been day 2 the other way. Now how many more attempts do I have to get the axe? None. Now I could take 100 times to get the axe. How long would that take by taking your time before it becomes to the point to where you want to rip your hair out? I just don't understand how taking your time helps with anything. I'm sorry.

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Ok ok. What I'm trying to say is you should play the game how you most enjoy it. I'm saying that it is an issue with the argument, not the game. The argument is that the drops should be skill based, but that is coming from someone who rushed through the content only to get pissed at never getting the gear they wanted. I'm just trying to put in some perspective. Right now, the gear isn't helping you because there's no content after. If you play the game only as long as you enjoy it, the chances are that the odds remain the same and you come out with no gear. The difference is that you only enjoyed the game and didn't drive yourself beyond that. If you enjoy 200 speed runs, then do it. If you can only enjoy 20 speed runs, do 20 and save more runs for another day.
Of course there are those that find enjoyment in having the gear and not the enjoyment in getting it. I have no solution for them except to try and look at it with a different perspective. You don't really have a use for the item yet, so no rush.
I'm not trying to force people to play slowly. That's not my goal. I'm trying to let people know that they can go to bed knowing that if they keep doing it, whether it be a rushed 200 or a slow few runs, the item will eventually come. The best thing you can do is enjoy those runs. It is but a temporary fix until the devs can balance the drop rate issues.

So please don't misunderstand. I am saying Play the game to your enjoyment. Take your time, rush it, but don't make the game a chore. My condolences go out to those of you with "ocd" and just have to get 100% immediately.

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Originally Posted by MrKupo

Getting stuff is fun. But you can't leave everything up to the developers to make it fun. If you push yourself too hard, it stops being fun and becomes a chore. Why not do a normal run every once in a while? God forbid you actually enjoy the journey instead of the destination.

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But the destination is the reason to take the journey in the first place, it's the motivation that drives us forward. You wouldn't take a one way road when you know in advance that it isn't going to lead you anywhere. The hope is that Dark Matter City is just a stop along the way, but I've been stuck there so long now that I want to leave it and see something new.

I agree with everything the OP posted except longer lockouts but that's just my opinion. Since its pretty much a given that Hamlet is tied to artifact weapons do you think 2 to 4 years from now hamlet will be obsolete resulting in players of that time having it much harder to get artifact weapons?

Hate to be an "i told you so", but I told you so.

I'll leave all the big parts out to make this a lot easier. Haha sorry. Just having a discussion.

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Originally Posted by MrKupo

Ok ok. What I'm trying to say is you should play the game how you most enjoy it.

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Agree 100% on.

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The argument is that the drops should be skill based, but that is coming from someone who rushed through the content only to get pissed at never getting the gear they wanted.

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Go on...

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I'm just trying to put in some perspective. Right now, the gear isn't helping you because there's no content after.

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So what you're basically saying is that people shouldn't really worry about this content "now" because there's nothing after it so when there is people should worry about it then? But then there will be a rush when needed (if needed which it won't be because I don't think winning the game requires gear only) you have to do it then. So why not get it out of the way now while there is nothing else to do?

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If you play the game only as long as you enjoy it, the chances are that the odds remain the same and you come out with no gear. The difference is that you only enjoyed the game and didn't drive yourself beyond that. If you enjoy 200 speed runs, then do it. If you can only enjoy 20 speed runs, do 20 and save more runs for another day.

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Completely agree. And there is no way to tell if you're taking your time whether it is 2 times a day or 200 times a day. Its how you see it, right? But there is really no way for me that taking your time with it will amount to the same enjoyment. Especially with the frustration of not getting anything on top of it countless times.

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Of course there are those that find enjoyment in having the gear and not the enjoyment in getting it. I have no solution for them except to try and look at it with a different perspective. You don't really have a use for the item yet, so no rush.

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But that is enjoyment in it self which is all that matters and with it you're enjoying part of the game. I myself don't enjoy the poison in aurum vale. I wish it wasn't there and it would make my role a lot easier, but it is part of the game and a challenge you have to pass.

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So please don't misunderstand. I am saying Play the game to your enjoyment. Take your time, rush it, but don't make the game a chore. My condolences go out to those of you with "ocd" and just have to get 100% immediately.

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And I think that is the point this thread is about. The blame is not 100% on the players as it is not 100% on the devs either. But a mixture of both. You have people blaming the players and other people blaming the devs. I know this content will become outdated eventually. Just like you said this is just temporary end game content. The only choice you have now at getting something from doing this is by meeting certain conditions. (one which you have to RUSH through, mind you can't take your time with) and then you have a low % at getting something and then if you do there are 8 people there. I wouldn't mind it if this were true end game content, but right now it is just blah. I just wish there should at least be at least another option for those who have been quite unfortunate without benefiting those who have been extremely lucky. S.E. put this out for us to do and the items there for us to want and if they wanted us to have a time limit on how much we should do it per day there would be, but there isn't and when you play their game because you want to support the game to continue to exist I just feel like there should at least be some other option with as easy as this is beaten right now.

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Originally Posted by Genz

They may put a tag system.
I think we need to be able to repeat something because it requires less organisation : don't have to run from place to place, don't have to verify that everyone in your group can indeed fight ifrit and mog and garuda, don't have to keep your unique "right to do cutter's cry" for your linkshell run tonight preventing you to answer this interesting shout, etc.

Repeating a content for 2-3h seems fine to me. I guess it's a play time for a lot of people, between 8h p.m. and midnight
(2-3 times a same donjon, 7-8 times a primal fight)

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2-3 hour waits for a 10 minute fight? No thanks.

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Originally Posted by TerahValeth

But the destination is the reason to take the journey in the first place, it's the motivation that drives us forward. You wouldn't take a one way road when you know in advance that it isn't going to lead you anywhere. The hope is that Dark Matter City is just a stop along the way, but I've been stuck there so long now that I want to leave it and see something new.

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For some people yes. I enjoy the chase just as much as I enjoy eventually having the items. Just like I enjoy learning a new class and learning the ins and outs just as much as I enjoy being at level cap. This is why I don't PL, this is why I don't rush the content to the point of hatred. I know I'm not the only one. And I'm not saying you have to be like me to enjoy the game. I'm not REALLY trying to argue one or the other. They need to fix the drop rate, that much is clear. But players can at least try to enjoy the journey. I'm just trying to remind people that there is enjoyment in the process that people are just skipping right over.

But I have been there. It is frustrating only getting Dark Matter when you want some actual good loot. But it isn't as bad when you are playing through the game with people you like and having a good time.

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Originally Posted by Nullie

I'll leave all the big parts out to make this a lot easier. Haha sorry. Just having a discussion.Agree 100% on.Go on... So what you're basically saying is that people shouldn't really worry about this content "now" because there's nothing after it so when there is people should worry about it then? But then there will be a rush when needed (if needed which it won't be because I don't think winning the game requires gear only) you have to do it then. So why not get it out of the way now while there is nothing else to do? Completely agree. And there is no way to tell if you're taking your time whether it is 2 times a day or 200 times a day. Its how you see it, right? But there is really no way for me that taking your time with it will amount to the same enjoyment. Especially with the frustration of not getting anything on top of it countless times.
But that is enjoyment in it self which is all that matters and with it you're enjoying part of the game. I myself don't enjoy the poison in aurum vale. I wish it wasn't there and it would make my role a lot easier, but it is part of the game and a challenge you have to pass.


And I think that is the point this thread is about. The blame is not 100% on the players as it is not 100% on the devs either. But a mixture of both. You have people blaming the players and other people blaming the devs. I know this content will become outdated eventually. Just like you said this is just temporary end game content. The only choice you have now at getting something from doing this is by meeting certain conditions. (one which you have to RUSH through, mind you can't take your time with) and then you have a low % at getting something and then if you do there are 8 people there. I wouldn't mind it if this were true end game content, but right now it is just blah. I just wish there should at least be at least another option for those who have been quite unfortunate without benefiting those who have been extremely lucky. S.E. put this out for us to do and the items there for us to want and if they wanted us to have a time limit on how much we should do it per day there would be, but there isn't and when you play their game because you want to support the game to continue to exist I just feel like there should at least be some other option with as easy as this is beaten right now.

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It seems we have finally come to a crossroads, and I agree with you. It seems we never really disagreed in the first place. And as for future content, it does make sense. But what if the content doesn't come out like most are predicting? Will people get mad at devs when they come out with content that makes all current primal gear useless? For example, a boss that is impervious to Wind. Those that took the time to get the gear yes. I would. Which is why I wait... When it is obvious that I need the gear, I'll make the time to get it. That's just the way I play. =D

I agree loot/content that gives that loot should be skill based.... not luck based or time based. When you beat something... you should get a guaranteed drop (by drop I mean a token... not a actual item... so you need 10/20/30/whatever tokens for a item of your choice)... and perhaps a random shot at a item. Nothing is worse than beating something hard and getting nothing.

Garuda was a step in the right direction. It was hard, and you are guaranteed a token. This is how every boss (and it's loot) should be. Ifrit/Moogle should give 1 token a kill... guaranteed. Every AV/CC run should give 1 Darklight Ore/token at the end... which you can turn 50 or whatever in for a Darklight piece of your choice. With Garuda I hope it is a sign they are moving away from easy crap with low drop rates to hard awesome with a guaranteed drop.

The only thing wrong with hamlet defense is the reward.... it does not give Company Seals. You should be guaranteed a certain amount of seals depending on your score (and the supply rating).... especially if you are running the hamlet of your faction. They just came out with hamlet defense... after chocobo escort... yet I am running Totorak/Darkhold for seals.... why? I mean really. Hamlet Defense should give Totorak equivalent seals/hour if not better. Militia items should be buyable with seals... and those rare 'seal' things you need for the AF weapons should be a guaranteed drop if you raise the Supply rating to level 5.

I am absolutely dead set against any time lockouts. Implementing time lockouts (1 day/2 day/1 week/whatever) is a absolute no and a artificial way to stall someone's progress... it is no better than luck based lockouts (the way stuff is now).

Sure some people will blow through the game and have everything... that always happens. Most people don't though... and they want to see progress when they log in for a hour or 2 or 5.

Edit: I guess what I'm saying is I see Garuda is a big big step forward.... and Hamlet defense as a small step back (which can be fixed if they just gave Company Seals as a reward).

And Kupo, I really do enjoy the game, I never got PLed, I work for everything I have in the game, but with the way the drop rate is designed (not my fault), unless you spam the content, you either need to be really lucky, or you won't get anything for months. Either way, this model isn't good for casual players, and it isn't good for skillful players, it caters to exploiters and people who for whatever reason, enjoy spamming the content for 6+ hours a day. Since I don't have time to do that, and since the skill and devotion I put into being the best at my class that I can be isn't going to pay off, I guess I get to spam in the hopes that I win that "lottery drop". I really want to enjoy the journey, but if the scenery isn't going to change, that leaves little to look froward to.

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Originally Posted by MrKupo

It seems we have finally come to a crossroads, and I agree with you. It seems we never really disagreed in the first place. And as for future content, it does make sense. But what if the content doesn't come out like most are predicting? Will people get mad at devs when they come out with content that makes all current primal gear useless? For example, a boss that is impervious to Wind. Those that took the time to get the gear yes. I would. Which is why I wait... When it is obvious that I need the gear, I'll make the time to get it. That's just the way I play. =D

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If content doesn't show or come out that is not the players fault. That is solely on the Devs and the longer they wait to release new stuff the longer time they'll have people who may quit the game. And players can only drag out content so long even if they go slow and take their time. The whole game in itself is content regardless of what you're doing so even if I'm spamming av or fishing or crafting I'm spamming the same thing over and over.

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Originally Posted by fusional

which is fine in theory- but in practice when it takes a hardcore player 500-600 runs to get a piece of darklight that a casual player gets in 20... there's a problem. basing everything on luck is just a slap in the face to anyone who puts in more than enough effort, but simply doesn't get lucky.

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Basically the summary of the thread.

EDIT: Also note that the random number generators are not actually random. SE is using a poorly made one and it's not just in dungeons. Going 1/19 on a double meld for something that is a 24% chance success is absurd.

And the real kick in the pants about all of this is. The untold hours spent chasing after darklight or what ever new shiny carrot they put in front of you is going to be all for naught come the next patch. As the bigger better stronger gear mentality continues on.

When ever I see some one with a full set of dark light i don't think oh wow cool! I think that person is ether mind numbingly lucky or has spend more time then I even want to begin thinking about getting it. That's why i have mostly checked out of the Gear grind in this game. I log in do some stuff have some fun and move on. At this point all i care about is getting the clear for the stuff they put in to hell with the rest.

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Originally Posted by Ruisu

2-3 hour waits for a 10 minute fight? No thanks.

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No, I've suggested to keep the right to repeat a content quickly, but to add a limit to the maximum number of times we can repeat the same content in a row, with a tags system (like guildleves)
The number of maximum tags for each content would be calculated based on a time frame of 2-3h, which would allow to repeat a donjon 2-3 times, and a primal fight 7-8 times in a row. I suggest 2-3h because I think it's near the average time we play each day and near the average time a party lasts.
I think it's important to be able to repeat a content because it allows to actually concentrate on the said content, and not on details. But if what we have know is a reason for the developpers to use low drop rate, then I'm all for a limitation on repeating content in exchange of higher drop rate, but not a heavy and strict limitation.

Sorry if that wasn't clear.

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Originally Posted by Griss

And the real kick in the pants about all of this is. The untold hours spent chasing after darklight or what ever new shiny carrot they put in front of you is going to be all for naught come the next patch. As the bigger better stronger gear mentality continues on.

When ever I see some one with a full set of dark light i don't think oh wow cool! I think that person is ether mind numbingly lucky or has spend more time then I even want to begin thinking about getting it. That's why i have mostly checked out of the Gear grind in this game. I log in do some stuff have some fun and move on. At this point all i care about is getting the clear for the stuff they put in to hell with the rest.

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Because Darklight was totally made useless after this last patch.

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Originally Posted by Griss

And the real kick in the pants about all of this is. The untold hours spent chasing after darklight or what ever new shiny carrot they put in front of you is going to be all for naught come the next patch. As the bigger better stronger gear mentality continues on.

When ever I see some one with a full set of dark light i don't think oh wow cool! I think that person is ether mind numbingly lucky or has spend more time then I even want to begin thinking about getting it. That's why i have mostly checked out of the Gear grind in this game. I log in do some stuff have some fun and move on. At this point all i care about is getting the clear for the stuff they put in to hell with the rest.

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^ This guy has it right. My sentiments exactly. We should be best friends. I see the Darklight on my hardcore LS mates that did the run eleventy billion times (and still a lot don't have it) and then I think, that would be cool to have that. 3rd run in I'm like... oh... right, this blows.

I think i'm put off also by the fact that there is a chance that no matter how many times I do it, I may not ever get the item.

Also, Isaaru, do you really believe Darklight is the be all end all gear? Come on... its like saying Solid Scale Mail is still the best stuff. It won't last that long. Although the gear is pretty cool and I hope it at least has a place.

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Originally Posted by TerahValeth

And so we should punish players that don't abuse exploits and/or class stacking since it will likely take them longer to complete the content the first time, cause once they finally do, the boss at the end of the dungeon isn't Miser's Mistress, it's the RNG, and there is NO strategy for beating him. My ls (the one Sol is in) was first on our server to clear Aurum Vale, we never stacked MNKs, our first 5 chest speedrun was with PLD WAR MNK DRG BRD WHM WHM BLM (every job is represented at least once). But when we complete content as it was intended 400+ times (w/ 300+ speedruns), the content goes stale really fast, I enjoyed the dungeon the first 200 times, but after that I felt betrayed. I personally don't have a SINGLE piece of DL (and I showed up for 99% of our runs - it was not out of lack of attendance), our ls hasn't seen a SINGLE body drop, not once. So yes, we want content that rewards skill rather than luck, that doesn't need to be beaten to death to see results. With that system in place, who can blame people for wanting to take the easy way out.

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I really dont consider it a punishment because I don't punish myself into running something hundreds of times. You know what I did to get my Ifrit weapons? Did Ifrit about 2-5 times a day, depending on how fun the party was. Within 3 days (so 15 runs max) I had the 2 weapons I wanted, an ifrit weapon i didnt want, and a handful of totems. Luck? Absolutely. Was it fun? Absolutely. Punishing? Absolutely not. The fault lies with players approaching luck-based systems the wrong way. By wrong I, of course, mean the most punishing, masochistic, and ineffective way possible. Trust me when I say, you *never* want to prove low odds true. Ever. And low odds will prove true the more attempts you make over a given amount of time. If you spread em out, you might be able to beat the odds with much less pain. If you run it a few times and get nothin, just stop for the day. It may sound superstitious but trust me when i say its not worth it. In any game of odds, luck can be very streaky. Don't ask me why, but its true. If you're on a hot streak, you can't miss. If you're on a bad streak, you will fail no matter how many times you try. This happens in real life and in rng. Why it happens no one will ever know. Is there a lady luck? Who the hell knows. All I know is you have to set limits on things or you will kill yourself.

I do believe that there needs to be variety though. Like I said before, the whole luck thing isnt for everyone. It requires a lot of patience, discipline, and of course luck. Its mental torture for some folks so there needs to be guaranteed reward based content as well. For whatever reason SE hasn't gotten around to it, probably due to having trouble balancing content difficulty. I'm all for other options though, but the luck thing is only punishing if ppl do it wrong. As it stands, just about everyone does it wrong except for the few who understand how to do it right.

as long as they get rid of speed runs haha. I'm saying this as someone that has the achievements already, just because theyre doable =/= enjoyable

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Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna

I really dont consider it a punishment because I don't punish myself into running something hundreds of times. You know what I did to get my Ifrit weapons? Did Ifrit about 2-5 times a day, depending on how fun the party was. Within 3 days (so 15 runs max) I had the 2 weapons I wanted, an ifrit weapon i didnt want, and a handful of totems. Luck? Absolutely. Was it fun? Absolutely. Punishing? Absolutely not. The fault lies with players approaching luck-based systems the wrong way. By wrong I, of course, mean the most punishing, masochistic, and ineffective way possible...

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For starters, let me make it clear that I have no problem w/ the Primals, the drop rate isn't great, but it's decent enough, couple that w/ the "totem system" and you have a formula that at least takes skill into account. My problem lies w/ content like Aurum, Cutters, and the Hamlets (the trend that the game seems to be evolving towards) where the drop rate is so terribly low that skill takes a back seat to factors like "can I run the dungeon 40+ hours a week". Our ls really only has event nights 2-3 times a week, we only do the dungeon 5-6 times in an event day. The problem is that THAT level of devotion to the task at hand DOESN'T increase the odds, and SKILL doesn't increase the odds. What motivation does anyone have to try to be the best they can be at their class/job if you can half-ass it and get lucky in a pickup party? I just want it so luck isn't the ONLY factor (or even the primary factor) I'm not saying it should be eliminated by any means, but it should take a back seat to skill, not the other way around.

Edit: oh yeah, and let's not forget Stronghold bosses, where you get a really low percentage drop rate on the key, which then has (presumably) a 1/8 chance to drop to you, and then you get to bang your head against the RNG for the chest. Let's be generous and say the key drop and chest have a 10% chance each of dropping (assuming anything from chest other than crap), that's 1/10 chance for key, times 1/8 chance you get the key over the other players, and 1/10 that the chest drops the desired item, that gives you a 0.125% chance every time the boss is killed that you'll get the item you're going after (and I'm pretty sure the drop rates are lower than 10%). This is SE being lazy to prolong content, where the content should stand on it's own, it should take a long time to get through the content because it's challenging.

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Originally Posted by Sol_Aureus

With each update I've become increasingly worried about the direction that FFXIV's content is headed in.

First there was Darkhold: a spamable dungeon with a 100% chance to get loot at the end from each chest. Everyone had full sets of everything from that dungeon within a month easily, then sat around twiddling their thumbs waiting for new content again.

Next there was Ifrit: a spamable fight with instanced chests so everyone got a chance to get an item. Problem is, it's a random item so you might not even be able to use it. It was incredibly frustrating when within our first 10 runs our tank got the staff and I got the sword. We'd love to have traded, but the items drop directly into our inventories so we can't even help our friends. So you have a low chance of getting a drop (let's be generous and say 10%) with a 1/7 (14%) chance on top of that that it's the drop you want. That's a 1.4% chance of getting the item you want. Later on they added Inferno Totems so you could save up for an item you actually wanted or pass the totem to your friend to help them get something they wanted. Good idea, but the problem again is that it's a random chance drop with a lower end drop rate and you need 10 of them.

Next was Moogle, another spamable fight whose loot system was a carbon copy of Ifrit's and has the same problems because of it.

Followed by Aurum Vale and Cutter's Cry: spamable dungeons with abysmally low drop rates. One of the absolute worst types of content in any MMO in my opinion. It's a cheap and lazy way to prolong content and create faux difficulty. The sad part about this is I loved Aurum Vale and liked Cutter's Cry (except for Chimera because of the fact that melee are practically worthless during the fight, but that's a different discussion). The dungeons were cool and had interesting mechanics in them that made them stand out. But then they were ruined by the fact that they were spamable. Darklight has such an abysmally low drop rate that players have to spam the dungeon for a chance at it. This is not fun. This is tedious and burns players out on these dungeons really really quickly.

Next of course came Garuda: Another spamable fight with practically the same loot mechanics as Ifrit and Moogle and has the same problem of the instanced chests dropping items directly to your inventory. But Garuda had one major difference: 100% totem drop rate. This was a step in the right direction. Viable progress every run towards your goal item. I would have preferred if they just had the weapons drop to your loot list so you can pass them, but it was at least something.

Finally we have Hamlet Defense: more spamable content with abysmally low drop rates. The militia gear isn't even all that great for battle classes. There are a few nice pieces, but it's hardly Darklight tier.

Then in 1.22a we got the first part of the AF weapon quests: where you need a key item from your GC that costs 25,000 seals and 3 seals: one from each hamlet defense. When I first heard about this, I was very happy with it. Finally, something that rewarded effort over luck. But alas, it was not so. After buying the GC key item I started doing level 2 Hamlet Defenses and found out to get the seals it was once again spamable content with abysmally low drop rates on top of the fact that chances are you're only going to get one to drop at a time if you do manage to get lucky, and you need one from all 3 hamlets. So once again it's mostly luck based: You have to wait so once every 3 days you can try for a specific hamlet, hope that the server has turned in enough supplies to turn it over to level 2, hope that when you clear that the seal drops from the chest then hope it drops to your inventory or to the inventory of someone who's willing to pass it to you. Then you have to do this 3 times.

And this is what worries me. Every single bit of endgame content we have right now is spamable. Because it's spamable, if they want to make the items you obtain by doing this content be "rare," it must have low drop rates. If it didn't, everyone would have full sets of everything again and there would be no sense of pride for getting gear because it's common. The problem is, this content does not reward skillful play or effort. The content instead rewards people who are lucky. That is it.

I want content that rewards skillful play and effort more than luck. Enough with the spamable content with abysmally low drop rates. Implement 1-3 day lockouts on content and dramatically increase drop rates. For something like Cutter's and Aurum Vale, I would have loved to see it be a 2 day lockout with each chest at the end having about a 35% drop rate on Darklight gear. If you do a 5 chest speed run, you have a pretty high chance of seeing at least one piece which keeps people motivated to keep doing the dungeon. The dungeon doesn't get stale because you're locked out for 2 days so you're not spamming it 8 times a night. The content stays viable for just as long as it is now, it's just much less tedious and frustrating.

The problem with lockouts of course is the fact that once you're waiting on your lockout, you don't have much to do. The thing is though, if everything we had right now had lockouts, there would be plenty to do. Aurum Vale on cooldown? Do Cutter's. That too? Garuda. Moogle. Ifrit. Hamlet Defense, hell, even Darkhold and Toto-rak for seals! If they had lockouts as well then perhaps people would do leves and chocobo escorts more! (I think they need a buff in rewarded seals for sure though, but that's another topic). By the time you finish all of that content, it'll be close to 2 days so you'll be able to start again soon.

So please SE, I'm begging you, move away from the "spamable content + abysmally low drop rate" model for everything. IT IS NOT FUN.

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Need to make caster gear/weapons seperated and make them better too. Darklight Gear for mages is terrible. And the Primal weapons. And the new HQ class only stuff, cause it's class only.

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Originally Posted by TerahValeth

For starters, let me make it clear that I have no problem w/ the Primals, the drop rate isn't great, but it's decent enough, couple that w/ the "totem system" and you have a formula that at least takes skill into account. My problem lies w/ content like Aurum, Cutters, and the Hamlets (the trend that the game seems to be evolving towards) where the drop rate is so terribly low that skill takes a back seat to factors like "can I run the dungeon 40+ hours a week". Our ls really only has event nights 2-3 times a week, we only do the dungeon 5-6 times in an event day. The problem is that THAT level of devotion to the task at hand DOESN'T increase the odds, and SKILL doesn't increase the odds. What motivation does anyone have to try to be the best they can be at their class/job if you can half-ass it and get lucky in a pickup party? I just want it so luck isn't the ONLY factor (or even the primary factor) I'm not saying it should be eliminated by any means, but it should take a back seat to skill, not the other way around.

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Well there should be varied dungeon content. Let me open by saying that much. It really shouldn't all be luck-based, so hopefully they'll add different dungeons with different drop systems. That being said, I find AV/CC fine. Hamlets im not sure about because of all the effort required, but time will tell with that.

The problem is people feel entitled to the best gear possible. At all times. Because they feel entitled, they figure that with enough effort they should be rewarded with it. They dont want to see "the lucky few," they want equality. This gaming philosophy, or psychology if you prefer, pivots around the whole issue of equal rewards for equal effort. Everyone wants to be the best if they try hard enough. This makes me gag, but different strokes for different folks. I get it. Though life doesnt work that way, I imagine ppl play games so they can escape that cruel reality. Either way, this is the way players think. As a result, whenever the next tier gear comes out, everyone feels they have to have it, and should get it. No matter how low the drop rate is, they will spam it 40 hours a week, and kill themselves pursuing crap they have no control over. Idc how many times you run it, it doesn't increase your odds at all. 3% is 3% no matter how you slice it, and more effort doesn't necessarily get you there any faster. It might, but it might not. At the end of the day its smarter to just let luck go where it goes and put all that wasted energy into other endeavors that could help you meet your goal of being the best. There are plenty of options, from melds to primals to even GC gear these days. Even if it *must* be Darklight due to some weird obsession, you don't need a full set within a week. That gear will be some of the best for months. There's no rush, take it slow.

Dungeons dont need to be run 40 hours a week, that may not even help you get it any faster at all. Even if it *did* help you, there's no one to say it would significantly help you. More likely than not, it'll hurt you, because over the long run 97% of your time will be absolutely wasted. Players are just approaching this the wrooooong way. If you come correct, you'll find its really not bad at all. More isn't always better, especially when it comes to crazy low odds. A smart gambling man sets his limits, and stops once he reaches them. He knows that the more he plays the odds, the more he'll lose. The idea is to play them to a certain limit, and then quit. When you get on a hot streak, ride the hot streak, then quit. If you're on a losing streak, ride it to your predefined limit, then quit. Whether you do it 10 times a day, or 3000 times a day, your odds are still the same. No need to kill yourself for some illusion of getting closer to that lucky drop. Every outcome is independent, is completely unaffected by the last outcome (altho streaks make this seem like crap), so take it slow.

Really think about it. If you have a 97% chance to lose would you really wanna try your hand at that 40 hours a week? Hell no. Do a couple runs at a time and hope luck falls your way. Use all your other time to pursue other goals...like HQ's or even double melds/triple melds...which have much higher odds than darklight btw. Don't put the darklight on a pedestal!

The issue is the current best items in the game is based on luck. The best items in the game should never be based on luck. Like Fusional said pages ago there is an issue when a hardcore player does hundreds of runs and doesn't get an item and then the casual player does 20 and gets it then there is a massive issue.

Such low percentages are just an awful idea, any percentage drop below 10% is insane to be honest. Like Sol said there needs to be a balance between amount of times able to complete a dungeons and the drop rate. The difference between this game and FFXI is that FFXI had 18 people in a party and the time restrictions made it so getting items took forever. In FFXIV with only 8 people in a party you can use the same restrictions and gear up everyone completely in less than half the time it would have taken in FFXI.

The thing is nobody wants to fight the same thing hundreds of times just to not get the drop they want. It's not fun, and it makes the originally fun content boring due to excessive repetition. To be honest they should just tokenize all of their content if they really want this ridiculously low drop rate.

@Lux: You do not understand statistics through repetition.

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Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna

3% is 3% no matter how you slice it, and more effort doesn't necessarily get you there any faster. It might, but it might not.

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If I want to see heads on a coinflip 5 times, I must flip the coin a minimum of 5 times. The more I flip the coin, the more chances I have at seeing heads, bringing me closer to my goal of 5. Your core understanding of probability is inherently flawed, which undermines your argument.

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Originally Posted by Isaaru

The thing is nobody wants to fight the same thing hundreds of times just to not get the drop they want. It's not fun, and it makes the originally fun content boring due to excessive repetition. To be honest they should just tokenize all of their content if they really want this ridiculously low drop rate.

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Exactly. Whether you stretch these hundreds of repetitions out over a two-month period or a two-year period, it's still not fun.

The Garuda reward system is as close to perfect as anything the FFXIV dev team has managed thus far. Guaranteed drops leading to a minimum amount of runs to finish X weapons, alongside an element of chance to speed the process, makes every run feel rewarding. The exact number of runs required for a drop is something that can be tuned to be appropriate for the given content.

I still enjoy running AV/CC just because I'm probably a masochist, but the drop system actively punishes players unilaterally, whether they run it once a week or fifty times a week. In fact, the more casual player is the one who has the most to lose, because he or she is more likely to party with a pick-up group. That abysmal drop rate is then exacerbated by the 1/8 chance of it dropping into that player's loot list.

i think SE designed the content this way is to satisfy both casual and hardcore players. I don't think content like Absolute Virtue in FFXI will appear again in FFXIV

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Originally Posted by Hippo

i think SE designed the content this way is to satisfy both casual and hardcore players. I don't think content like Absolute Virtue in FFXI will appear again in FFXIV

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The thing is the current content only satisfies a small number of players due to their luck.

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Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna

Really think about it. If you have a 97% chance to lose would you really wanna try your hand at that 40 hours a week? Hell no. Do a couple runs at a time and hope luck falls your way. Use all your other time to pursue other goals...like HQ's or even double melds/triple melds...which have much higher odds than darklight btw. Don't put the darklight on a pedestal!

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As a main Black Mage, the Darklight is worthless for me as it is (so I'm by no means putting on a pedestal). The best gear for me is double/triple melded gear (purely luck-based endeavors) so my alternative is bang my head (and blow my gil) against that RNG.

That aside, why even try something if you only have a 1% chance at succeeding? I wouldn't put money down at the black jack table w/ those odds, so why would I want to spend 30 mins of my time fighting the same odds. Also, I specifically said NOT to take RNG out of the game, but just to weigh skill higher than luck. I'm not impressed when I see someone in hard to obtain gear, because I know they just got lucky. By the same token, how can I feel a sense of accomplishment for obtaining something when it really just boils down to luck? Where is the value in doing anything in life w/out the incentive to do it well? I also never said to make ANYTHING 100% drop rate, but since we're not in a casino, yes I believe skill should increase the odds.

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Originally Posted by Isaaru

@Lux: You do not understand statistics through repetition.

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I do in fact. Your odds are always a given percentage regardless of how many times you do it. Statistically, the probability of every outcome is independent of all the other outcomes. Proof is in the fact that I have more ifrit weapons than people who have spammed it hundreds of times over a certain period of time. I got more in 3 days than some ppl saw in a week of non-stop spamming. Did I nonstop spam at all? No. This is what I mean when I say spamming something doesn't necessarily increase your chances in any noticeable fashion. Its all freakin luck. Heck my friend got 3 weapons over 4 runs in one day. I mean cmon. Anyone who honestly believes spamming low-odds games helps them in any way is deluded. For every extra run you squeeze in a given day you have 97% chance of wasting your time and getting 0. That is not a odds game you want to rack up lots of attempts on because the odds are *heavily* stacked against you.

Its not like I'm saying don't consistently play the game. Consistently play the game, but within limits that don't hurt you or waste too much time. You have to be willing to take a loss, but dont sacrifice 40 hours out of every week on a low odds game like that. That's just stupid, and will hurt you a lot more than itll help you. Its because I understand this, which you claim I don't, that I can play happily without bitching/moaning/crying over low drop rates...and still get stuff I want! If you think I don't understand something, the proof is in the results. Seriously if you flip a coin 100 times today, and 2 times another day, on both days your chances of seeing tails are 50%. It neeeeever changes. Are you more likely to see that 50% prove true through 100 repetitions? Suuuure. Are you more likely to see tails through 100 repetitions. Nope. Either way there's a 50% chance of flippin dat tails. That's just the ugly truth of it. The odds don't change no matter what the hell you do. The only thing affected by repetition is your results. The more you do, the more your win/loss record will change, and the more a given probability will prove true. So let me ask you...do you really want to prove a low-odds game true? I, for one, do not. I definitely want my win-loss record to reflect more than 3%. Jus sayin. That being the case, repetition is your enemy. Period. 97% of it is wasted effort. The smart thing to do in that case is to spread the attempts out so the losses don't burn you out. 100 attempts today, 10 attempts tomorrow, either way there's a 3% chance of gettin what you want that day.

So whats more of a loss? 97% of 10 hours, or 97% of 2 hours? Gotta play it smart.

Lux... no.

This is how it works without a wall of text. The chance of failing all 100 times with a 97% failure rate is 0.97^100. This is equivalent to 0.0476 or 4.76% chance. The chance of failing 10 times with the same rate of failure is 0.97^10 which equals 0.7374 or 73.74%. You have a lower chance of failure with more repetitions.

Yes in the end everyone will have the same rate of drop after massive amounts of runs, but you will not gain more equipment per day only running 10 times than a person who will run 100 times. It's the same proportional loss no matter what. You succeed 3% of the time and lose 97%.