So this game has dps checks but we can't talk about our dps in game?

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Originally Posted by kizumiayamame

quadruple weave their gcds.

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"Quadruple Weave" would be a good FF14 band name.

I have a proposal regarding this.

If SE absolutely refuses to add performance report cards of any form in a game that has DPS/performance checks in a bid to prevent “toxicity” (though the ones being toxic here are the bad players sneaking into high-end content PFs that they are severely unqualified for)...

Then for high-end content ONLY, they should add a new vote kick reason: “Underperformance.”

With this new vote kick option, if you get a bad/unqualified player sneaking into your clear/farm PFs (“traps,” as the raiding community calls them, for they trap the raid into endless wipes), and they get vote kicked with the new “underperformance” option, they will see the following system message on their screen:

“You have been dismissed from the party for underperforming in the selected high-end content.”

If the toxic casuals want to keep clowning on the players who actually put the effort to learn difficult content, then the latter should also be given a way to “clown” the toxic casuals back in a polite manner that still drives in the point that they don’t currently belong in the PF they’re sneaking into, and I think this revision to the vote kick system should do it.

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Originally Posted by Intellion

I have a proposal regarding this.

If SE absolutely refuses to add performance report cards of any form in a game that has DPS/performance checks in a bid to prevent “toxicity” (though the ones being toxic here are the bad players sneaking into high-end content PFs that they are severely unqualified for)...

Then for high-end content ONLY, they should add a new vote kick reason: “Underperformance.”

With this new vote kick option, if you get a bad/unqualified player sneaking into your clear/farm PFs (“traps,” as the raiding community calls them, for they trap the raid into endless wipes), and they get vote kicked with the new “underperformance” option, they will see the following system message on their screen:

“You have been dismissed from the party for underperforming in the selected high-end content.”

If the toxic casuals want to keep clowning on the players who actually put the effort to learn difficult content, then the latter should also be given a way to “clown” the toxic casuals back in a polite manner that still drives in the point that they don’t currently belong in the PF they’re sneaking into, and I think this revision to the vote kick system should do it.

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So you are asking for SE to allow a reasoning in vote kick, which would point to the use of tools that go against the TOS, even if they remain against the rules? Riiiiiiight.

Also, the way you throw around those names like "toxic casual" really only highlights your vitriol toward large portions of the community. I suggest you cool your jets and go for a walk, because the only one being toxic is you.

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Originally Posted by AlyaNimfa

So you are asking for SE to allow a reasoning in vote kick, which would point to the use of tools that go against the TOS, even if they remain against the rules? Riiiiiiight.

Also, the way you throw around those names like "toxic casual" really only highlights your vitriol toward large portions of the community. I suggest you cool your jets and go for a walk, because the only one being toxic is you.

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Well, the best part is you can look them up...


Pot may need to stop talk about kettle lol. (them, not you)

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Well, the best part is you can look them up...


Pot may need to stop talk about kettle lol.

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Gr8 b8 m8.

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Originally Posted by AlyaNimfa

So you are asking for SE to allow a reasoning in vote kick, which would point to the use of tools that go against the TOS, even if they remain against the rules? Riiiiiiight.

Also, the way you throw around those names like "toxic casual" really only highlights your vitriol toward large portions of the community. I suggest you cool your jets and go for a walk, because the only one being toxic is you.

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I mean, if a “casual” player:

-Still doesn’t know their job’s basic 1-2-3s by Lv. 90.
-Still gets ganked by every single mechanic, even simple ones introduced way back in ARR, at Lv. 90.
-Outright refuses to get better and instead throws a tantrum on the forums and demands for content to get nerfed the moment they get walled by literally anything in the MSQ.
-Responds to any form of criticism or feedback with nonsense like “YOU DON’T PAY MY SUB!” or “Help GMs! I’m being harassed!!!”

Then despite then things listed above, said player still sneaks into a Savage Clear/Farm PF thinking he’s entitled to a carry, then plays victim the moment he’s vote kicked by his seven other party members for wiping the raid over and over...

Then who’s really being the toxic one here? The casual, or the raiders? Really makes you think.

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Originally Posted by kizumiayamame

People who don't know how to press their 1-2-3 combo or quadruple weave their gcds.

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This tells me one of two things, you don't know how to play, or you use more mods than just ACT. Better be careful about them quadruple weaves cause fflogs will ban you and so will SE.

Is how to tell if you are up to par, with out any parser. Get to enrage with out deaths and see how much % HP the boss has left. If there are no deaths and its HP > 1% you have an uptime problem odds are. If its HP > 5% you have players that probably should not be doing that content.

How ever with them quadruple weaves you be pulling I see how you would ever have any dps issues.

how the F you quadruple weave exactly? this is the first time i heard this? with my latency the best i can do is double weaving and that is already pushing it

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Originally Posted by gumas

how the F you quadruple weave exactly? this is the first time i heard this? with my latency the best i can do is double weaving and that is already pushing it

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You cant. It's not a thing that's even possible.

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Originally Posted by Intellion

sneaking into high-end content PFs that they are severely unqualified

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"Sneaking in" they are using the PF interface to join a group they are qualified for. If there's an issue, the leader of the PF can just kick them, no questions asked.

There is absolutely no need for a "we kicked you because you suck, buddy" button. (Which I'm sure would be used very responsibly and not get abused endlessly.)

If the leader of the PF you're in is not kicking bad players by your standards, your solution is to join a different PF, make your own, join a static group with more exacting standards... or just suck it up and try with the group you have.

The game has DPS checks and you will know if you need more DPS by if the DPS check wipes the party.

The game also has a way to measure if you have enough DPS with Stone, Sky, Sea and the current version of it called The Burning Field.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Well, the best part is you can look them up...


Pot may need to stop talk about kettle lol. (them, not you)

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Please stick to the topic I put in the OP. Detracting from the original topic to personally attack me isn't just a waste of time, it's also rude.

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Originally Posted by kizumiayamame

Please stick to the topic I put in the OP. Detracting from the original topic to personally attack me isn't just a waste of time, it's also rude.

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Wasn't talking about you at all. But thanks for assuming.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Wasn't talking about you at all. But thanks for assuming.

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Omg I'm sorry I misread :(

If this game requires me to quadruple weave anything I'd uninstall it immediately. That might require you to have 5-10ms ping. I can handle the sub fee but for me to relocate somewhere near the servers to be able to quadruple weave? that's mental.

Yeah I'm also hardstuck P4S, vetting process is like a secondary job at this point. Trying to identify the problem and kicking them isn't an enjoyable experience at all.

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Originally Posted by Lieri

If this game requires me to quadruple weave anything I'd uninstall it immediately. That might require you to have 5-10ms ping. I can handle the sub fee but for me to relocate somewhere near the servers to be able to quadruple weave? that's mental.

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I think what he means by that is that somebody used 4 oGCD's in a row.

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

"Sneaking in" they are using the PF interface to join a group they are qualified for. If there's an issue, the leader of the PF can just kick them, no questions asked.

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Nope.

Just because someone has unlocked a high-end duty doesn’t mean they’re qualified for it. For example, a bad DPS who’s still spamming random attacks and doesn’t know what a 1-2-3 rotation/oGCD weaving is at Lv.90 and still can’t grasp the basic concept of not standing in AoEs can still easily get carried through the MSQ and Pandemonium Normal, and in turn unlock P1S.

Does that mean he’s qualified to join P1S parties, especially those explicitly advertising clear/farm runs. Hell no. That’s just a trap waiting to wipe the group over and over from failing even the most simple mechanics and/or failing DPS checks. Clearly, said DPS belongs more in Hall of the Novice or Sastasha and not Extremes or Savage.

But I kinda agree though; we don’t really need a “Sorry dude, but you suck” button. What we need is a proper in-game performance gauge. That way, even serious players on console can also have a way to gauge their performance to see if they’re ready for high-end content. Also makes vetting for traps in high-end duties far easier; the way the system is now, finding and booting the trap can become a major pain at times due to how much the system coddles said traps.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

The game has DPS checks and you will know if you need more DPS by if the DPS check wipes the party.

The game also has a way to measure if you have enough DPS with Stone, Sky, Sea and the current version of it called The Burning Field.

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Neither of this is necessarily true, especially the latter.

Case in point, one of the TEA groups I was apart of hit enrage several times on Perfect Alexander despite zero deaths. Clearly a DPS issue, yes? Even though two of the DPS had relics and everyone had the dungeon BiS, thereby making us stronger than when it originally released. Turns out neither healer properly communicated their healing, which the raid lead and I only noticed by going through logs to figure why we simply couldn't beat enrage. They were, on average, 2,000 below what's expected for that phase. Each.. Asking the DPS and/or takes to make up that much damage is essentially asking they play to perfection while nost expecting the same from either healer. It's a wholly unrealistic and unfair standard.

As for Stone, Sky, Sea. It's a near worthless metric due to being a stationary target. People usually fumble their rotation when mechanics are happening not when they can sit and turret. Furthermore, SSS has been notoriously tuned incredibly poorly. Back in Shadowbringers, the physical range literally couldn't beat the dummy in full Savage gear because it was tuned without the assumption of buffs. Think about that. This is supposed to be a tool to tell you whether you're capable of attempting Savage and you can't beat it... with the gear from Savage. Nevermind that it doesn't help healers in any capacity. All in all, it's pretty much useless.

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What we need is a proper in-game performance gauge.

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It has been said and has been said again, for reasons that have also been stated repeatedly.

The answer is NO.

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Originally Posted by Daeriion_Aeradiir

Ramuh (must kill adds or auto wipe)
Shiva (must kill adds or auto wipe)
Steps of Faith: need I say more about the controversy surrounding the instance and why it was nerfed?
Ravana (must kill adds or Bloody fuller becomes unlivable due to vulns)
Bismark (hard enrage if snake adds dont die, or if fight drags on long enough for island to shatter from Bismark's attacks)
Nidhogg (adds must die or auto wipe)

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And i have seen all of these happen in the MSQ version of the fight, because "different playstyles". That excuse is just a load of crap.

You dont need to talk about dps to just silently kick the problem member from your pf. Not pretty but the only thing you can do tbh. Maybe they will realize there are issues with their performance, maybe they will become a forum warrior and tos herald. It's out of your responsibility.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

It has been said and has been said again, for reasons that have also been stated repeatedly.

The answer is NO.

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Well, it's about time we changed that.


The game's been out for nearly 10 years now; I think it's a perfect time now to start expecting proper gameplay, or at least even just basic competence, from players. Even if said performance meters are only usable on high-end content (since casual content don't have any significant DPS checks anyways). Bad players can continue being bad in normal content, but in high-end content, where a certain level of mastery is expected from all eight players of the team?



Implement a performance meter in there. No more flimsy excuses.

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Originally Posted by Intellion

Well, it's about time we changed that.


The game's been out for nearly 10 years now; I think it's a perfect time now to start expecting proper gameplay, or at least even just basic competence, from players. Even if said performance meters are only usable on high-end content (since casual content don't have any significant DPS checks anyways). Bad players can continue being bad in normal content, but in high-end content, where a certain level of mastery is expected from all eight players of the team?



Implement a performance meter in there. No more flimsy excuses.

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But the solution is already at hand in high end content (assuming you are running it through pf): look at ACT, deduce who is the problem member with the information ACT provides and what you saw yourself during the fight, kick the problem member. No words need to be exchanged there.

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Originally Posted by Intellion

Well, it's about time we changed that.


The game's been out for nearly 10 years now; I think it's a perfect time now to start expecting proper gameplay, or at least even just basic competence, from players. Even if said performance meters are only usable on high-end content (since casual content don't have any significant DPS checks anyways). Bad players can continue being bad in normal content, but in high-end content, where a certain level of mastery is expected from all eight players of the team?



Implement a performance meter in there. No more flimsy excuses.

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I wonder how fast you'd come here complaining about being kicked for performance issues if they implemented that.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

I wonder how fast you'd come here complaining about being kicked for performance issues if they implemented that.

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Pretty fast considering how hard they seem to have been carried through p1s/p2s. I'm hoping they're just a troll and don't genuinely think they're in a position to be grading other peoples performance.. yikes.

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Originally Posted by Intellion

Well, it's about time we changed that.


The game's been out for nearly 10 years now; I think it's a perfect time now to start expecting proper gameplay, or at least even just basic competence, from players. Even if said performance meters are only usable on high-end content (since casual content don't have any significant DPS checks anyways). Bad players can continue being bad in normal content, but in high-end content, where a certain level of mastery is expected from all eight players of the team?



Implement a performance meter in there. No more flimsy excuses.

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Would saying that I only started playing half a year ago and not 10 years ago count as an excuse? ><

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Originally Posted by Saraide

You dont need to talk about dps to just silently kick the problem member from your pf. Not pretty but the only thing you can do tbh. Maybe they will realize there are issues with their performance, maybe they will become a forum warrior and tos herald. It's out of your responsibility.

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That's terrible though, we're forced as a community to just silently kick people? We know /why/ they're the problem but we can't say why no matter how polite? While there are a heavy amount of people with little will to improve themselves, there are still some people who /want/ to improve themselves and I'm sure would like to know why they're kicked instead of booted without a word.

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

there are no dps checks for anything below extreme. You can autoattack normal raid bosses and regular trials to death.

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Id like to see your entire PF autoattacking the crystals of light phase in Hyldaelyn trial and beat it.

Yes, ill wait here for you to do it.

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Originally Posted by Intellion

Well, it's about time we changed that.


The game's been out for nearly 10 years now; I think it's a perfect time now to start expecting proper gameplay, or at least even just basic competence, from players. Even if said performance meters are only usable on high-end content (since casual content don't have any significant DPS checks anyways). Bad players can continue being bad in normal content, but in high-end content, where a certain level of mastery is expected from all eight players of the team?



Implement a performance meter in there. No more flimsy excuses.

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If you use it just for yourself, might be ok. But have a look at the toxic game where lots of players have quit and are now in FF14, i do not think that there are many players who would like to see here again a parser and all the toxic behavior coming from.

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Originally Posted by Loonies

If you use it just for yourself, might be ok. But have a look at the toxic game where lots of players have quit and are now in FF14, i do not think that there are many players who would like to see here again a parser and all the toxic behavior coming from.

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It will always be misuse, and the discussion forum will end up who have bigger number speak louder. It happen on many MMO and it ruin it. Bit like the situation/story in the 90 Dungeon.

the current "grey area" way is best for everyone. Normal content have no need of it and I am pretty sure most of the static have someone running it. Feel sorry for those pure console party, but it is for the greater good.

As far as I'm aware DPS checks is a "party wide contribution". The timer doesnt matter nor care if one of you is doing the most dps, because they've been all designed to be beaten as long as EVERYONE is doing the damage. With a bit more leeway if a couple of people are K.O'd but the rest are doing optimal deeps anyway.

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Originally Posted by Loonies

If you use it just for yourself, might be ok. But have a look at the toxic game where lots of players have quit and are now in FF14, i do not think that there are many players who would like to see here again a parser and all the toxic behavior coming from.

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Anything being used in a toxic sense can just be reported, using our ability to simply speak in a toxic manner can be reported.

There's a difference between being educational and toxic, which is direly needed especially in harder content when people join but have zero clue how they're doing, have no desire to know, or just don't /know/ how to know. And without any of that they don't know that they're the ones dragging the party down when you can't meet the dps check

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Originally Posted by Areic

That's terrible though, we're forced as a community to just silently kick people? We know /why/ they're the problem but we can't say why no matter how polite? While there are a heavy amount of people with little will to improve themselves, there are still some people who /want/ to improve themselves and I'm sure would like to know why they're kicked instead of booted without a word.

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Yea it's not pretty but someone who actually wants to improve will seek out resources anyway. The balance is known widely enough that if they were to ask around, someone's going to point them there and while definitely not perfect it's absolutely a good starting point to get information (even if the community there is not the best). Usually doing mechanics well and doing damage go hand in hand anyway.
There is no perfect solution because for every polite person you have who will point out issues in a constructive way, you'll also have a bunch of people who dont know their own job, their party member's jobs or the boss fight flinging around dps numbers in an effort to feel better about themselves and put others down. I dont want toxic casual elitists to be allowed to talk about dps numbers.

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Originally Posted by Intellion

I mean, if a “casual” player:

-Still doesn’t know their job’s basic 1-2-3s by Lv. 90.
-Still gets ganked by every single mechanic, even simple ones introduced way back in ARR, at Lv. 90.
-Outright refuses to get better and instead throws a tantrum on the forums and demands for content to get nerfed the moment they get walled by literally anything in the MSQ.
-Responds to any form of criticism or feedback with nonsense like “YOU DON’T PAY MY SUB!” or “Help GMs! I’m being harassed!!!”

Then despite then things listed above, said player still sneaks into a Savage Clear/Farm PF thinking he’s entitled to a carry, then plays victim the moment he’s vote kicked by his seven other party members for wiping the raid over and over...

Then who’s really being the toxic one here? The casual, or the raiders? Really makes you think.

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How do you know any of that is the case besides you fantasizing about it?

One time I logged in after losing my job. That day, I played really badly. But someone like you would say, "oh, that person boosted."

Get over yourself. You are not god's gift to gaming. You don't know why someone is struggling, or where they are in their experience at that moment. New players have to go into Savage and make mistakes in order to get better. If you don't want to deal with new players, make a static of all legends. What you're suggesting here is the exclusion of most of the playerbase. No one who goes 1->90 or 80->90 directly knows how to play their Job. It takes time for most people to do their rotation correctly. Not optimally, but correctly. It takes even more time for them to be good enough to do extremes, and more than that for them to do Savages.

You don't get to gatekeep and determine when people get to try these things.

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Originally Posted by Misutoraru

It will always be misuse, and the discussion forum will end up who have bigger number speak louder. It happen on many MMO and it ruin it. Bit like the situation/story in the 90 Dungeon.

the current "grey area" way is best for everyone. Normal content have no need of it and I am pretty sure most of the static have someone running it. Feel sorry for those pure console party, but it is for the greater good.

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Is it for the greater good though?

You should know that the current state of the "high-end" community is pretty rancid because no one has confrontation in game due to the devs forcibly stifling it. Public name and shame documents, public blacklists, people clipping mistakes on streaming platforms and sharing them. You could literally have a bad reuptation after one bad day. This results in a lot of raider circles being clique-y and god help you if you aren't in the clique.

These sentiments trickle down to lower echelons of the playerbase as well, players will take advantage of the fact that no one can say anything and deliberately sandbag so they can AFK and get roulette rewards. Or you'll have players silently grief players they consider "bad." I've seen it happen on numerous occasions.

This problem isn't even a new thing either, so I don't think "WoW Refugee" boogeyman is to blame, its just growing increasingly worse as time goes on and SE needs to address it.



Weirdly enough, allowing players to be outwardly toxic helps to quell a lot of this residual toxicity in my experience. And I find residual toxicity to be far, far, more game ruining.

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Originally Posted by kizumiayamame

You can't be serious and start whining about how there's the possibility of people harassing you over a parser or whatever scenarios y'all like to imagine in your heads when it rarely if ever happens in game.

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Because it all happens outside the game. On Discords and on message boards. A Japanese player was almost driven to suicide on an anonymous message board because she was harassed due to her parse. This specific example is what led Yoshida to take a firm stance against it. This is not imaginary.

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Originally Posted by kizumiayamame

You know what does happen in game? People who don't know how to press their 1-2-3 combo or quadruple weave their gcds. There's no way that open communication about trying to kill the boss and making sure everyone is up to par is worse than the player who still doesn't know their rotation at level 90 and doesn't even have the right food buff on. And often you don't even need to bring third party programs into the conversation.

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Then disband and reform the party. That’s an in-game function. There’s ample leeway in the current system to allow a clear.

It seems that you have excessive scorn towards your fellow players. Video games can be frustrating sometimes, but people need to remember that it’s just a video game. We all want the gear and the weapons, but we play the game because it’s fun and getting a clear is rewarding work. You can live without ilvl 590 gear for a while. 580 via crafting or tomestones is more than sufficient.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

As far as I'm aware DPS checks is a "party wide contribution". The timer doesnt matter nor care if one of you is doing the most dps, because they've been all designed to be beaten as long as EVERYONE is doing the damage. With a bit more leeway if a couple of people are K.O'd but the rest are doing optimal deeps anyway.

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This is true, but, if you are wiping on a boss because your party isn't doing enough damage, how are you supposed to tell who the slackers are?

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

This is true, but, if you are wiping on a boss because your party isn't doing enough damage, how are you supposed to tell who the slackers are?

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Thats never an issue I ran across. All of my dps wipes has been due to more than 3 people are K.O'd during those phases, not because a couple of people havent been dpsing optimally

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

Pretty fast considering how hard they seem to have been carried through p1s/p2s. I'm hoping they're just a troll and don't genuinely think they're in a position to be grading other peoples performance.. yikes.

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Why yes, I'm a gray parser who dunks on other gray parsers, why do you ask?

Jokes aside though, that's another reason why I support an official in-game performance meter.


EW is actually the first time I've dove into Savage (before, I only tackled Extreme at most), and it's going pretty well so far.

For what it's worth, I did enough practice runs of P1S/P2S to execute all the fight mechanics perfectly, and managed to squeeze out just enough DPS to avoid hitting enrage.
Yet, my results could be much, much better despite me already clearing, and my only options right now for real-time evaluation is ACT, which I cannot get to work on my computer for the life of me, and even if I did, it's still a gray area at best, meaning the chances of getting a crackdown for it isn't exactly zero.


I know FFlogs is a thing, but it only seems to record performances after a clear of a certain boss, meaning that there's no way to know how your personal results were during a wipe, or when you're just wailing on a striking dummy. If there is a way to see that in FFlogs, I don't know how. I'm not good with these things. Regardless, SE should just give us an official in-game performance checker of sorts, so that I can finally have more real-time feedback of my performance without resorting to sketchy third-party tools that are technically still against ToS. If I get kicked from a party for not meeting their desired parses, oh well. To me, that's just a sign that I need to practice more, so I'll just get better until I'm good enough for said party. Or I'll make my own. No big deal. :/