Strange and annoying new tanking trend

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Yeah, they're chain pulling. But I've been working on my melee alt classes and I agree that I want...to...murder...them...myself.

I have tried to politely mention that if they run off with mobs melee can't reach them anymore and some have adjusted but some just keep doing it.

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I had trouble with this strategy as melee, but I had more trouble as BLM.

Like someone said, it's just them learning.

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Originally Posted by MirielleLavandre

I've been around for quite awhile, and in all my time in FF14 since ARR release, I've never encountered the kind of tank play that I've found to be prevalent and, honestly, quite annoying recently.

In at least every other leveling roulette I do each day, the tank (usually a new player or a returner) will pull one or two groups, stop - the dps and myself will engage - and then when the mob pack or packs are about dead will rush off to the next pack without waiting for everyone to kill the pull. It is most annoying when they pull one pack, wait till 1/2 are about half dead, then run off pulling this one single mob pack to the next. I mean, what is going on with tanks just not doing standard 2 or 3 pack pulls and just stopping...like, staying put?

I always w2w pull when on my PLD, but healing these kind of tanks is super annoying - and it is even worse when I'm on a dps job and they just run off trailing mobs...Is this a common thing for others, or common in other games?

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That is what I do. It keeps the flow going ... taking one or 2 packs then moving with eh last kill to the next one. I have yet to have anyone complain about it.

Why does it matter? Players decided what tanks "should pull like" not the game or SE.

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Originally Posted by Naoki34

It's a way to stall when the dps is low, the heal unable to heal big packs or the CDs are not up.

It's only a problem for beginners, this kind of action destabilizes beginners rather easily, what do you want?

Take everything until the next wall, some heal are not able to heal that, so we delay for them.

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As someone who plays all roles, but mainly Healer and Tank and have preferred those roles for over 20 years of MMO play: Please stop. Dragging half dead enemies around is in no way at all a good way to stall. It mucks up DPS rotations, makes landing AOEs much harder, keeps making the rooted casters like BLM and your healer have to struggle to keep up and get spells off.

Either pull wall to wall or pull what you feel comfortable with and stop there until they are dead.

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Originally Posted by MirielleLavandre

I've been around for quite awhile, and in all my time in FF14 since ARR release, I've never encountered the kind of tank play that I've found to be prevalent and, honestly, quite annoying recently.

In at least every other leveling roulette I do each day, the tank (usually a new player or a returner) will pull one or two groups, stop - the dps and myself will engage - and then when the mob pack or packs are about dead will rush off to the next pack without waiting for everyone to kill the pull.

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Some version of this chain pulling strategy is optimal in many MMOs (notably WoW), but annoying suboptimal in FF14.

The issue is especially prevalent with people leveling tanks as their first characters. While tanking in FF14 isn't particular hard, there is a way to do it, and you never see it done correctly if you are always tanking.

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Originally Posted by Zsolen

I had trouble with this strategy as melee, but I had more trouble as BLM.

Like someone said, it's just them learning.

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It's not someone just learning. I've seen it in EW dungeons. I agree with others in this thread that they've brought it from experience with other MMOs because it is much more common there.

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Originally Posted by AngelCheese77

That is what I do. It keeps the flow going ... taking one or 2 packs then moving with eh last kill to the next one. I have yet to have anyone complain about it.

Why does it matter? Players decided what tanks "should pull like" not the game or SE.

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Because the dps can't kill it if you take it out of range.

I agree with this being supremely annoying. If you are going to w2w, then w2w...don't pull the first pack, stop, wait for everyone to start doing their thing being halfway into their rotations and THEN decide to sprint off.

While this may be a WoW cultural thing also consider what I said in my former post, that this may be an alternative for the tank thinking "ok I'll do a big pull but I'll water it down somewhat", like a compromise, a mid-point between doing small pulls and big pulls when you know pulling both packs together right away may end up in disaster because you don't trust the party or yourself to handle it, but you don't want the dungeon to take forever by doing small pulls only. So please be mindful of that.

I don't mind. Melees have everything instantly casted and can run alongside with the tank. Not preferred if blm or rdm. Other dps can do their job on the move and some of the healers aswell

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Because the dps can't kill it if you take it out of range.

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With the exception of a BLM who has already burned its relative mobility, we can and do kill enemies that are chasing the tank, actually. Whether they fall out of range or not comes down to our own positioning; the tank's moving on does not cripple us unless we let it.

I hugely prefer W2W pulls, and think one should always W2W unless there's a very good reason not to, but I've seen enough Sylphies and half-afk co-DPS to know that there is, on occasion, a very good reason not to.

Moving towards the second pack before the first has died --or stopping the gather a bit before the second pack, getting the first pack lower without CDs before completing the gather-- in order to make (mitigation CD) ends meet is not suboptimal in those rare occasions.

It doesn’t work here because this games engine and coding is a mess. Best example is WHMs holy on moving packs, the actual HIT animation and what is actually being hit is totally out of sync, the game snapshots what was in range when your cast completed, but there’s a huge delay until the animation goes which brings the results of that snapshot, so enemies often are being hit and stunned a mile away or not hit at all.

I know that some people want to establish this ridiculous behavior that is instantly noticed as mechanics but it must have something to do with the base ARR (the absolute failure) this new FF14 was built upon.

It's an annoying wow habit.

As a healer, I really don't like it. These are usually the tanks that don't know what mitigation is, and I'll blow my load trying to heal them and not get any regen between pulls.

And of course I don't say anything because people are sensitive snowflakes that'll throw a stink if you try to tell them how it's done here. This ain't wow. Quit playing as if it is, please.

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Originally Posted by Imora

It's an annoying wow habit.

As a healer, I really don't like it. These are usually the tanks that don't know what mitigation is, and I'll blow my load trying to heal them and not get any regen between pulls.

And of course I don't say anything because people are sensitive snowflakes that'll throw a stink if you try to tell them how it's done here. This ain't wow. Quit playing as if it is, please.

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I'm guilty of this, and I'm glad soneone told me a while back.
I think most people are open to criticism if it's tactful.

I have experienced mentors who have absolutely lost their marbles the second they spot a mistake, and you can be certain I will react negatively if their only advice is to call me a moron.

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Originally Posted by Kansene

I'm guilty of this, and I'm glad soneone told me a while back.
I think most people are open to criticism if it's tactful.

I have experienced mentors who have absolutely lost their marbles the second they spot a mistake, and you can be certain I will react negatively if their only advice is to call me a moron.

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Must be nice to get people open to criticism.

if you've seen it on the tales from duty finder thread, I've seen it in game. I quit giving advice after being told "don't tell me what to do" repeatedly. Those are usually the folks I have to scrape off the pavement often.

If the Healer cannot keep up then I will pull less then move to the next ones when the pack thins out a bit so the run keeps going. I would rather do it this way than risk a wipe.

Not all Healers can handle w2w in every run. A good Tank adjusts so that the Healer isn't overwhelmed

yeah and a lot of tanks dont adjust. a lot run it the same way over and over again... i dont think you should just pull less after one wipe, mistakes can happen and people should get a chance to grow... most people dont grow if they dont step outside their comfortzone. but its getting ridicalous after the third time.... on the other side there are so many tanks whon dont adjust even if the healer doesnt have to heal

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Originally Posted by Imora

Must be nice to get people open to criticism.

if you've seen it on the tales from duty finder thread, I've seen it in game. I quit giving advice after being told "don't tell me what to do" repeatedly. Those are usually the folks I have to scrape off the pavement often.

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We definitely have differing experiences, though various factors can obviously skew our perceptions, like region, data center, time of activity, luck and so on. And I'm betting you've played longer than I have, so your experience likely draws from a significantly bigger pool.

With that said, most people I've encountered who play badly will either be grateful or downright apologetic when adviced, or in the worst case silent. I've yet to see the "you don't pay my sub" attitudr out in the open, though who knows what happens in tells.

I've only really seen downright obnoxious behavior from mentors or other obvious vets.
Typing in all caps after a wipe in an alliance raid or singling out a poor sprout tank who turned a boss the wrong way.

Heck, only a few days ago I had my first personal interaction with such a person, and posted about it in the tales thread.
I've received many good tips as I've learned the game, people respectfully telling me to ABC, to mainly heal with oGCDs
, how I should mostly look to optimize damage first and foremost, all being things I did wrong, and I'm personally grateful thry took time to teach me these things.

*Cries in Doton*

Just make up your minds tank.

I generally scope out the Healers abilities on the first two packs if I deemed it too risky already I wont be wall to wall pulling.

And I am guilty of dashing off if I realize the Healer is good before the last two enemies are dead to start pulling more and speed up the pace.

But thats only on the first encounter after that I wait till all is dead at the next wall.

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Originally Posted by Kansene

We definitely have differing experiences, though various factors can obviously skew our perceptions, like region, data center, time of activity, luck and so on. And I'm betting you've played longer than I have, so your experience likely draws from a significantly bigger pool.

With that said, most people I've encountered who play badly will either be grateful or downright apologetic when adviced, or in the worst case silent. I've yet to see the "you don't pay my sub" attitudr out in the open, though who knows what happens in tells.

I've only really seen downright obnoxious behavior from mentors or other obvious vets.
Typing in all caps after a wipe in an alliance raid or singling out a poor sprout tank who turned a boss the wrong way.

Heck, only a few days ago I had my first personal interaction with such a person, and posted about it in the tales thread.
I've received many good tips as I've learned the game, people respectfully telling me to ABC, to mainly heal with oGCDs
, how I should mostly look to optimize damage first and foremost, all being things I did wrong, and I'm personally grateful thry took time to teach me these things.

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I think a lot of the times I see people do this, they do it very shorthanded and without any tact. No matter how you provide the advice, if you don't do it in a kind and understanding way, you will receive a negative response or silence.

There is a difference between "You should use your ABC while doing that." and "Just something I noticed and wanted to offer my opinion, maybe try using ABC while doing that."

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Originally Posted by Kansene

I'm guilty of this, and I'm glad soneone told me a while back.
I think most people are open to criticism if it's tactful.

I have experienced mentors who have absolutely lost their marbles the second they spot a mistake, and you can be certain I will react negatively if their only advice is to call me a moron.

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I think you hit the nail on the head there. Tanks can reach Endwalker dungeons with no clue on how to pull effectively. If the people in the party of the tank are worried about the tank being toxic/ report happy, they will not say anything. Also, many people will dismiss toxic behavior from a 'mentor' and not listen to anything they have to say and for good reason. The 'mentor' might not even be right in some cases.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Sounds like a WoW habit. "Chain pulling" was a popular way to run dungeons there, you'd pull some packs and once enough of the mobs in that pack had died you'd move to the next pack without stopping. This is because it's far easier to dps while running in that game, so you'd always be on the move through the dungeon with a decent sized pull on the tank that would be constantly aoe'd down, rather than waiting for the last few stragglers to die.

In ff14 this clearly doesn't work because aoe'ing a pack of running mobs is almost impossible. The tanks probably mean well and they're trying to play optimally, they just haven't learned it's different here.

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Seriously, according to my screen I'm right next to a mob trying to attack it only to be greeted with "out of range"

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

*Cries in Doton*

Just make up your minds tank.

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INFURIATING!

I was fortunate when I started this game as a little baby WoW refugee to have someone kindly inform me in Sastasha that I should be heavily DPSing as a healer, and that I don't need to heal until the tank is below 50% health.

My point? If you don't tell these tanks what they're doing wrong, they're going to assume dungeons and group combat function the same way that they do in WoW. They won't stop chain pulling until they're told why it's less efficient. So speak up in the instance, rather than ranting about sprouts in the forum that they probably don't even know exists.

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

If the Healer cannot keep up then I will pull less then move to the next ones when the pack thins out a bit so the run keeps going. I would rather do it this way than risk a wipe.

Not all Healers can handle w2w in every run. A good Tank adjusts so that the Healer isn't overwhelmed

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If the healer can't handle it, just do small pulls. But stay there so the stuff can die. You're interrupting dps in their rotations when you tear off with half-dead mobs, causing wasted CDs.

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Originally Posted by Chie_M

My point? If you don't tell these tanks what they're doing wrong, they're going to assume dungeons and group combat function the same way that they do in WoW. They won't stop chain pulling until they're told why it's less efficient. So speak up in the instance, rather than ranting about sprouts in the forum that they probably don't even know exists.

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We're telling some of the tanks saying they do it in this very thread why it's not helpful but they're still defending it. I have had some luck in game with a "Hey, you just pulled everything out of the line of my Geirskogul, can you hold them there for me next set?" but some just ignore you.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

If the healer can't handle it, just do small pulls. But stay there so the stuff can die. You're interrupting dps in their rotations when you tear off with half-dead mobs, causing wasted CDs.

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Only jobs I've had issues with attacking a pack with AoE's while its moving is casters because they have to stop and cast. Physical DPS both melee and ranged aren't an issue. The melee with circular AoE's centered on them not requiring a target are even easier.

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

Only jobs I've had issues with attacking a pack with AoE's while its moving is casters because they have to stop and cast. Physical DPS both melee and ranged aren't an issue. The melee with circular AoE's centered on them not requiring a target are even easier.

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It's less attacking on the run and suddenly having everything elsewhere, especially for something like Dragoon. Now my Geirskogul has completely missed everything because I had it lined up and now mobs are scattered chasing the tank. Mobs that may or may not have DoTs on them to finish them off before arriving because the tank didn't let dps get to that part of their rotations.

What dungeon can you even have these issues in? Pretty much every dungeon after ARR has the same linear simplistic design of 2 packs -> wall -> 2 packs -> boss -> repeat x2. So unless they're doing this with single packs (in which case you should be frustrated they're not wall-to-walling, as they say), this is in ARR dungeons, at which point who cares no class has any rotation anyway; just mash your 1 AoE button (if you even have it), otherwise finish off the low mobs while running.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

It's less attacking on the run and suddenly having everything elsewhere, especially for something like Dragoon. Now my Geirskogul has completely missed everything because I had it lined up and now mobs are scattered chasing the tank. Mobs that may or may not have DoTs on them to finish them off before arriving because the tank didn't let dps get to that part of their rotations.

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Mobs in FF14 have next to no mechanics and all just chase the tank in a nice line like the unchallenging mess they are, so DRG AoE is perfect for it. If you're having issues AoE'ing as a DRG while running, you're targeting the wrong mob.

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Originally Posted by Michieltjuhh

Mobs in FF14 have next to no mechanics and all just chase the tank in a nice line like the unchallenging mess they are, so DRG AoE is perfect for it. If you're having issues AoE'ing as a DRG while running, you're targeting the wrong mob.

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This isn't on the pull. The tank has grabbed their 2 or 3 packs. The party has stopped and is working down mobs. Then halfway through that without any warning, the tank just runs off trailing half-dead mobs. Now the rest of the party has to scramble to get back into range to try to burn the mobs down before the tank pulls more. It's definitely not helping the healer that was already struggling when they have to heal the tank through more mobs than they would if the tank had just stayed there and let the party burn down what they had. And it doesn't help the dps do their function in the party if the mobs are suddenly yanked out of range of the abilities they've just used. It's not keeping the run going. It's needlessly making everyone else's roles harder for no benefit.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

This isn't on the pull. The tank has grabbed their 2 or 3 packs. The party has stopped and is working down mobs. Then halfway through that without any warning, the tank just runs off trailing half-dead mobs. Now the rest of the party has to scramble to get back into range to try to burn the mobs down before the tank pulls more. It's definitely not helping the healer that was already struggling when they have to heal the tank through more mobs than they would if the tank had just stayed there and let the party burn down what they had. And it doesn't help the dps do their function in the party if the mobs are suddenly yanked out of range of the abilities they've just used. It's not keeping the run going. It's needlessly making everyone else's roles harder for no benefit.

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She's not wrong, though. In AoE, you have zero use for positionals and there are no unwarned-of cleaves in the game at this point, so there's no reason for you not to be positioned on or ahead of the tank. Even if you do alt-tab a bit between GCDs, you still have Spineshatter and Elusive to get you back ahead of the mobs and it's impossible for the tank's Sprint to outlast yours (and you should be pretty much matching their Sprint timings, unless they're consistently wasting half its duration by not popping it before combat). Casters (including the Healer) can and should, from the start, be stutter-stepping to get ahead of the tank. If a BLM, for instance, you may Sharp-Swift before pull, use those two GCDs to AM and without uptime loss continue sprinting til you're well ahead but still in range of wherever the tank may awkwardly dodge to (this should generally be down the path, but /shrug).