Genuine Scholar feedback

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Originally Posted by Tobias_Azuryon

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Very confused on where you get this idea that SCH's pet AI is somehow worse when I played it all last expac and it feels noticeably better than it did in Shadowbringers. I've not been having issues with it and it's extremely responsive now.
Also, Summoner players in the DPS forums seem to have a ton of problems with Carbuncle now and I've seen many of them talk about how much better the faerie on Scholar feels compared to new Summoner, so it's a bit weird to see someone saying the opposite.
If you don't like Scholar, just keep playing Sage? I'd rather not see Scholar become a clone of Sage, as I'm not much of a fan of Sage at all outside of its DPS options.

Also, rather than removing ED, maybe the argument should be that Aetherflow heals should be better than SGE's Addersgall heals due to the tradeoff?

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

Very confused on where you get this idea that SCH's pet AI is somehow worse when I played it all last expac and it feels noticeably better than it did in Shadowbringers.

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Anecdotal feedback is what it is, but I'd rather have reliable snappy skills than fairy skills oriented on its positioning and movement any day of the week. For every single piece of opinion information there will always be a counter. That's why it's not the full crux of my argument but just a single aspect.

Also we're not talking about the entire kit becoming like SGE's, we're talking about ED and small adjustments to the class and/or its fairy/ogcd kit that will make it feel better to use (which again is player preference sure).

I'm not saying copy everything from SGE's kit but there has to be some middle ground between "Fuck it make them all the same" and "LEAVE IT HOW IT IS" and I'm looking for that. Instead of just saying "That sucks because it's like SGE" why not spitball other options or maybe go back and forth on further iterations to the kit? Why not provide feedback on what you'd like to do with ED that makes it worth leaving on AF when everyone will always choose damage over heals when/where they can for the most part?

I love SGE and will continue to play SGE but it doesn't mean I want SCH's to kick rocks and screw themselves. I want to discuss the kits after seeing SGE and new SMN and I think there's room to grow the kit that isn't some outdated premise of "Aetherflow needs to be on AF so I don't cap" or something new could be done with Aetherflow in general.

As for AF heals, I'm totally fine with SCH having a buff to its AF heals as one of my preferred changes would be to have a skill or skills on AF that actually provide shielding so they're slinging barriers more often (not OP but just more than one GCD worth/Seraph).

tl;dr We can do more with ED than keep it on AF "Just cuz" despite some weird idea of it being "rewarding" gameplay to that person, and the fairy and fey skills can be used to better add distance between SCH's kit and SGE's.

EDIT: To add some context, perhaps if the fairy were more responsive/snappier like the summons you could seamlessly transition between Selene and Eos to provide differing buffs and utility to the party like the SCH used to. I'm just saying we have options we could explore.

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Originally Posted by Tobias_Azuryon

I mean you can call it "copying SGE" but I'm moreso about it copying SMN because SMN pet and actions feel 100 times better than anything SCH has or has had.

Fey Union being a big ol tether doesn't mean it's any less of a soteria, it's just in your mind that because it's "different" animation wise that it's different in execution. SGE copied SCH's homework and just changed a few things.

There's plenty that could be tweaked regarding Seraph and Dissipation and the fey skills that could set it apart, but imo the ai/fairy holds it back. We didn't have New SMN to compare to before and now we do.

Like it or not Energy drain as it currently stands IS "ogcd Phlegma" and Fey Union IS Soteria. Just because they make them "easier" or more reliable does not change this fact. ED keeping you from overcapping for a "whopping 300 potency" doesn't mean anything to anyone except for the SCH managing their AF. It doesn't "feel better to play" or "feel good to use" or "feel rewarding" just because you popped off some ogcds. I think making more options without tying it to AF is a better option personally.

Energy drain still generating fey gauge would mean more tether more often with proper control/management of your mp/resources inbetween heals possibly, who knows. Just digging your heels in and saying "I like the fairy" when the fairy is one of the worst aspects of SCH imo isn't really a good counter to me.

I think SCH can branch out and stop competing with itself with its kit sometimes is all.

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It's not the first time your posts are full of inaccuracies.

You can delay and ghost skills on SMN. Ifrit-Egi and Titan-Egi are annoying. Carbuncle is a burden. I'm wondering if you actually ever played the jobs you are trying to seem knowleadble about.

Soteria is a fire and forget skill, a CD that is independent from the rest of SGE's kit. Fey Union is tied to Aetherflow and can be managed tick per tick. Both skills ultimately heal the designated target tick per tick, so they are clearly quite literally the same skill. Now that thanks to you I'm out of my schizophrenic loop and see things in my head no more, I see the light. Assize and Earthly Star are literally the same skill because they both heal and deal damage at the same time. Sure, you can detonate Star early and its potencies depend on when you do it, but if we ignore this, they are literally the same skill. If you think they have any difference, oh boy, go get that head of yours checked.

For being someone that really likes to use "imo" you sure as hell like to be dismissive of other people's opinions.

The faerie is pretty fine atm or at least way better than shb and every expansion prior in terms of response time, you only get skill queue delays if you're issuing 2 commands simultaneously in a doubleweave window or issued a command after telling it to move somewhere quite far from its current position.

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Originally Posted by rewd

For being someone that really likes to use "imo" you sure as hell like to be dismissive of other people's opinions.

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Carbuncle is way more responsive to me and my friend who's been maining SCH since like....forever so I'm not sure why the accusatory remarks are necessary. Again, anecdotes are anecdotes. You may feel fairy is responsive, I don't. I feel Carbuncle and SMN is more responsive, you don't. Perhaps I'm not playing SMN "right" which is a very possible concession but both I and he think the SMN pets are way more snappy and responsive in comparison.

What someone "feels" is not invalidating evidence, but just information to explain the perspectives of said person. AF/ED > Fey Gauge is not the ONLY solution to that which is why instead of just like...screaming into a forum void we could be workshopping alternatives.

Fey Union is handled by "ticks" but also locks you out of your other Fey skills in the mean time. It's literally a buff to the PASSIVE healing of the target, thus the similarities. Dosis/Kardia heals are the passive healing kit of SGE. Fairy Heals are the passive healing kit of SCH. It's not a huge leap to make that conclusion and/or draw similarities between the two.

The fairy Tether is a toggleable Soteria (to me). That doesn't change or invalidate my perspective on it. It doesn't even make Fey Union "bad." It's just a comparison that we've spent far too much time and effort focusing on when discussing "homegenization" when just having an off and on switch isn't exactly the "variety" I'd expect people to champion for. I'd like to think we can aim higher than that.

I would more compare Assize to maybe Phlegma(?)for the "heal while you aoe/damage" aspect but if we want to be overly simple in our analysis we can make anything sound dumb by comparison, yes. Earthly Star/Sanctuary/Asylum/Kera are the "dome" skills that each healer has so I don't really see it as the same as assize, nor do I see a reason to compare assize as we're not currently discussing that kit.

While you are combative and explain my conversations as dismissive, I, too, can look through post history and see an unnecessarily aggro personality that I know I need to avoid engaging with in the future. While you're not outright saying I'm "objectively incorrect" you're not doing a great job of presenting yourself as the "bigger" person here.

While I understand the angst as my friend who's mained SCH most of the time I've known him has been so bummed he's not playing it as much now, I'm trying to look at possible solutions, not take a dump on other people and/or taking the worst read of their opinions.

You do you, my dude, enjoy ED how it is I guess.

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Originally Posted by Tobias_Azuryon

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I think that's fair. Obviously if they could make the faerie lossless I'd love that but I've noticed such an improvement with EW that I haven't had the annoyances with it that I did in ShB. Anecdotal evidence aside, I was really thinking they'd completely gut it in EW and I'm happy they worked towards improving it as well. The faerie is the reason I love playing Scholar and I would likely quit the job entirely if they did away with it or made Lily not do anything/just animations. I really don't like how Carbuncle just stands there with a dopey look on his face for SMN

As it stands with ED I'm someone who does like it, but I'm also not against getting rid of ED in a scenario where they replace it with something that does offer something interesting to SCH's kit that isn't just another 45s oGCD or something, and I think if the developers did that, they'd absolutely just make it "not-Phlegma".
As it stands though I definitely do understand the complaints about ED feeling underwhelming/irritating in comparison to SGE; especially with the 1.5s cast times in EW and the MP changes to SCH, Energy Drain is not as much of an integral component to SCH's kit as it was in ShB, as it was needed back then to prevent DPS losses on weaving faerie heals. In optimized environments its usage hasn't changed much, but for someone like myself who isn't "optimal", but tries to play to the best of my ability, I have found that I don't have as much of a need to "save it" for healing and movement like I did in ShB, and instead I can just burst it away.

Personally, I think buffing SCH's AF heals, or slightly nerfing SGEs, would do a lot to make the impact of ED feel less like a pain in the ass to some. The criticisms of AST/SGE being better at healing because WHM/SCH have to lose damage to heal definitely are true, so why not make the heal itself actually feel worthwhile to use and not just "let my AST/SGE cohealer handle it?" The developers seem to think that WHM is a monster of a healer, so why not actually make WHM and SCH monsters of healers? They seemingly understood this a bit with SCH and made Adlo better than SGE's equivalent, so this is definitely a direction I think they can head in with SCH without removing systems that are already in place.

In regard to your point about Selene/Eos, I definitely think they should! It's an easy way to save on button space and while I wasn't around for it, I would love to see it come back. Seraph has a 1 second delay from being summoned now to being able to do any actions, but outside of that in my experience she comes out pretty snappily, so I see no reason why they couldn't lean into Selene and Eos being distinct entities again. Just turn one of their buttons into a "Summon Eos/Selene" instant cast button like Summon Seraph works and go from there!

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Originally Posted by rewd

It's not the first time your posts are full of inaccuracies.

You can delay and ghost skills on SMN. Ifrit-Egi and Titan-Egi are annoying. Carbuncle is a burden. I'm wondering if you actually ever played the jobs you are trying to seem knowleadble about.

Soteria is a fire and forget skill, a CD that is independent from the rest of SGE's kit. Fey Union is tied to Aetherflow and can be managed tick per tick. Both skills ultimately heal the designated target tick per tick, so they are clearly quite literally the same skill. Now that thanks to you I'm out of my schizophrenic loop and see things in my head no more, I see the light. Assize and Earthly Star are literally the same skill because they both heal and deal damage at the same time. Sure, you can detonate Star early and its potencies depend on when you do it, but if we ignore this, they are literally the same skill. If you think they have any difference, oh boy, go get that head of yours checked.

For being someone that really likes to use "imo" you sure as hell like to be dismissive of other people's opinions.

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I don't completely disagree with their assessment though

Comparing Fey Union and Soteria isn't a huge leap in logic since both have a similar premise to them, which is to enhance the healing output of their respective job mechanic. Soteria being a Fire and Forget skill has some level of disadvantage to it since you can't always rely on it being available but Fey Union also has a myriad of problems with it that far outweigh its own positives. The biggest positive for Fey Union is the ability to stop it from overhealing by just turning it off but other than that, it really isn't that great of a skill. Being unable to use it while Seraph or Dissipation is active while also being unable to use other Fairy abilities without having to reapply the tether make the skill cumbersome to use. The slow build up to reach its full potential is also a negative since you have a finite number of Aetherflow stacks available to build up your Fairy Gauge, even with Dissipation and Recitation usage included; Maybe if the Enhanced Aetherflow Trait was still a thing it wouldn't be so bad but that's neither here nor there so I'm counting it as a negative.

As for Homogeneity of Healers, at this point, we're fighting between 80% vs 81% homogeneity. SE isn't willing to make healer's different enough to matter and any ideas are better than dealing with a clunky mess.

I made a topic some time ago calculating why SCH needs some slight tweaks to be able to heal as freely as SGE. TL;DR: Remove AF stack from Soil, make fey illum 10% damage reduction and increase WD potency in 200-250. That you way you can preserve ED for damage and still free healing on par with SGE

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

I don't completely disagree with their assessment though

Comparing Fey Union and Soteria isn't a huge leap in logic since both have a similar premise to them, which is to enhance the healing output of their respective job mechanic. Soteria being a Fire and Forget skill has some level of disadvantage to it since you can't always rely on it being available but Fey Union also has a myriad of problems with it that far outweigh its own positives. The biggest positive for Fey Union is the ability to stop it from overhealing by just turning it off but other than that, it really isn't that great of a skill. Being unable to use it while Seraph or Dissipation is active while also being unable to use other Fairy abilities without having to reapply the tether make the skill cumbersome to use. The slow build up to reach its full potential is also a negative since you have a finite number of Aetherflow stacks available to build up your Fairy Gauge, even with Dissipation and Recitation usage included; Maybe if the Enhanced Aetherflow Trait was still a thing it wouldn't be so bad but that's neither here nor there so I'm counting it as a negative.

As for Homogeneity of Healers, at this point, we're fighting between 80% vs 81% homogeneity. SE isn't willing to make healer's different enough to matter and any ideas are better than dealing with a clunky mess.

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Saying that the skills are similar is one thing, saying they are the same and that the only difference is the animation while the rest is just in my head is another thing that shouldn't even deserve a reply.

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Originally Posted by Sighearth

I made a topic some time ago calculating why SCH needs some slight tweaks to be able to heal as freely as SGE. TL;DR: Remove AF stack from Soil, make fey illum 10% damage reduction and increase WD potency in 200-250. That you way you can preserve ED for damage and still free healing on par with SGE

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That much potency on WD is a bit insane but the fact that Whispering dawn heals for overall less potency over a longer period of time and doesnt give you 10% healing actions boost ON THE SAME cooldown as Physis 2 is just stupid

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Originally Posted by Tobalito

That much potency on WD is a bit insane but the fact that Whispering dawn heals for overall less potency over a longer period of time and doesnt give you 10% healing actions boost ON THE SAME cooldown as Physis 2 is just stupid

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Adjusting potency numbers is an easy fix though and really, I miss the days when SCH had Rouse. I'd trade Fey Union for Rouse everyday of the week.

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Originally Posted by Tobalito

That much potency on WD is a bit insane but the fact that Whispering dawn heals for overall less potency over a longer period of time and doesnt give you 10% healing actions boost ON THE SAME cooldown as Physis 2 is just stupid

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That's because on SCH the HoT and healing buff are separate buttons and SCH's Holos equivalent is on a half long cooldown.

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Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

That's because on SCH the HoT and healing buff are separate buttons and SCH's Holos equivalent is on a half long cooldown.

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To be fair though, the healing buff on the sch fairy ability is healing magic potency up (realistically only helping your cohealer or adlo shenanigans) and doesn't even affect the regen (since it's an ability). I would consider the holos equivalent to be expedient since they share the 10% party mit. The fact sge has pneuma is likely what offsets fey blessing since its 300 potency on blessing every minute pneuma is 600 every 2 and they're both dps neutral, again the difference being pneuma can be buffed with zoe or spell healing potency increases whereas blessing cannot be. The whole healing actions versus spells is some major feels bad on sch since it's really only good for the adlo gimmick.

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Originally Posted by kcedelic

Please remove energy drain, or make it only restore mp. As someone coming from sage, and wanting to learn scholar: Energy drain feels really out of place/clunky. I understand the potency is very low, but the min max part of my brain suggest not to use those heals to do more damage. Please, just remove that inkling from my head and don't tie the healing resource to dps.

It feels good on white mage because the blood lily is rewarded from healing, not from not healing.

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If posibile I would prefer that energy drain restore a small amount of MP (500 or was it 300?) per use as it did in the past and also keep the 2k from using Aetherflow as well that would be very useful and make it relevant again.

So SCH should copy SGE's design more because it'll allow them to spam their 1 button more without dps loss and without sacrificing healing? Because "that's just how the game is played now" and "everything is homogenized anyway"? Are we this creatively bankrupt as a community or just cynically defeatist?

The problem is obviously there is no meaningful choice between damage or healing, because healing isn't required in this game. OF COURSE ED feels mandatory. It's not ED, it's SE/CB3's genius idea that healing not be required in an MMORPG. If all healers had to make meaningful choices on when to damage or when to heal, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

So instead of talking about how we can make SCH into SGE and homogenize the fun out of this game even further, why not talk about why ED feels necessary to be spammed in the first place?

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Originally Posted by OtakuSempai

So instead of talking about how we can make SCH into SGE and homogenize the fun out of this game even further, why not talk about why ED feels necessary to be spammed in the first place?

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We already know why.

The prevalence of optimization of damage and minimization of healing.

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Originally Posted by MsTanya

I would consider the holos equivalent to be expedient since they share the 10% party mit.

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Nah, Holos and Fey Blessing are unlocked on the same level, SCH's is just stronger even with pet potency drawbacks.

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Originally Posted by OtakuSempai

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It feels unnecessary because it's 1 button press extra to something other classes do with 1 button. The same reason Tanks complained in early SHB when Healers out-DPS'ed them. They have all those beautiful buttons to press to keep their damage up, or keep their DoT going or keep their cartridge combo going and here comes WHM with Glare Glare Glare Glare. Obv. the example with scholar is on a miniaturized level compared to Tanks vs Healers. I'd rather Healers have unique DPS rotations, maybe make Fey gauge into a pseudo WAR gauge for a healer version of fell cleave, maybe improve fairy healing substantially, remove AF heals and give us a DPS AF toolkit, GCD heals could refill AF and AF could have abilities that are like 600 potency on 30s/45s cooldown. The biggest issue with current healer design isn't the 1 button nuke spam imo, though that is a glaring one. The biggest issue is that we have between 2-6 buttons per healer dedicated to GCD healing and aproximately 3-4 buffs that buff those GCD heals, but in this game nobody uses GCD heals except White Mage (and newbies) because doing so is killing your DPS for that GCD cast. Why has no one at the design team considered to instead giving us OP OGCD heals to instead make us care more about GCD heals?
For example on AST, let's take PVP Malefic and PVP Benefic as a example. Both of them give you the effect "Abridged" as long as they been cast with a cast time, causing your next cast to be instant. Now why can't we give Benefic an other effect like "changes Malefic to Fall Malefic" and Fall Malefic is as strong as 2 malefic casts and costs no mana. Suddenly you not only have a small 1-2 combo in which the AST heals someone but you also improved AST's mobility while giving them an double weave window. If you don't need to heal then just cast 2 malefics like always, only healing GCD change the ability to fall malefic after all. And then you design the class further from there. Offensive Job gauge to manage, improvements to the card system and Astrodyne and voila! Chefs kiss. Suddenly Abilities like Synastry and Neutral sect don't feel out of place and due to the larger focus on GCD heals MP management would become more important again. Abilities like CO could finally go back to being AST's stun like in the good old days instead of a OP heal. And hey if you're yearning for that Time Mage flavor that helps with that too. I take AST as a example because it is the only healer who got Lucid dreaming baked into its card mechanics, meaning that if they ever decided to delete Lucid, AST is already set up to keep AST's MP economy alive through gameplay and not pressing a button on CD with the same level of depth as Protect was in StB.
Same level of GCD overhaul could help SCH and make all its GCD healing buffs less forgettable and gameplay more fun. At least in my opinion anyway.

I'll be honest I was humping SGE for a good while there but last week I decided to try out my old main SCH and honestly, I really like it.

It feels a lot more responsive which was my biggest gripe, I think they gave Selene bath salts or something.

Fey Union's new 30 yd range and fast activation has allowed me to finally enjoy one of my most hated abilities due to not having to worry about tether loss. I still wish it would allow us to use other fairy abilities without deactivating it though, but that's something that can be played around.

As has been said countless times, Expedient is the surprise star and went from zero to hero when people realized how much utility it brings and how much people love you for using it. My only complaint, and this might be pushing it to the overpowered side but I feel like the cooldown is a bit too long.

Oh yes, and making Angel and Consolation one button was nice to save on button bloat.

can ruin 2 get an animation change please

I’ve said it many times, I think the devs should remove fey union from the fey gauge and just make it a gcd channeled heal. The heal is not very strong anyway tbh.

If you want your faerie to heal everyone then embrace is for that but if you want your faerie to focus on just one person. Then fey union can be for that. Remove it from the fey gauge. I’m very shocked it’s still attached to it. Just my humble opinion.

If they wanna keep it the way it is now then add a 10% damage down effect on it. Make it worth while at least.

:)

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

I’ve said it many times, I think the devs should remove fey union from the fey gauge and just make it a gcd channeled heal. The heal is not very strong anyway tbh.

If you want your faerie to heal everyone then embrace is for that but if you want your faerie to focus on just one person. Then fey union can be for that. Remove it from the fey gauge. I’m very shocked it’s still attached to it. Just my humble opinion.

If they wanna keep it the way it is now then add a 10% damage down effect on it. Make it worth while at least.

:)

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If you know how to use it, it is worthwhile.

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Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

..though that is a glaring one.

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Well done, love it.

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Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

It feels unnecessary because it's 1 button press extra to something other classes do with 1 button.

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This, quite frankly, I don't much care about at all. I simply care about what is fun and engaging and I'd argue, a lot of the playerbase is as well. If it's fun, players will play it. See old WHM. Sure, more effort should be rewarded but I really don't see it needing to be the main focus especially with designing SCH.

Resource management with ED is fun and engaging for me. Dumping stacks on overheals like on SGE is not.

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Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

IThe biggest issue is that we have between 2-6 buttons per healer dedicated to GCD healing and aproximately 3-4 buffs that buff those GCD heals, but in this game nobody uses GCD heals except White Mage (and newbies) because doing so is killing your DPS for that GCD cast. Why has no one at the design team considered to instead giving us OP OGCD heals to instead make us care more about GCD heals?

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This is precisely my point. Healing isn't required in this game and this is why we're even talking about ED, when I believe it should be exactly what you just mentioned. Let's talk about why the devs insist on making most of our healing kit superfluous, the real issue, not ED which is the only thing that gives SCH any amount flavor and differentiation from other healers.

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Originally Posted by Kabzy

If you know how to use it, it is worthwhile.

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What? Lol sorry I don’t mean to laugh. It’s just a more “powerful” channeled heal. Toss it on a party member and that’s it. There is nothing special about it to be honest. I’ve used it on the tank during wall to wall pulls and I still need to toss a heal or 2 on the tank during it sometimes, especially if the tank blows all their cds carelessly.

There just isn’t enough oof you know. Adding something more to it will just be better. That’s all.

Fey Union is the highest potency single target HoT in the game. It needs more potency? Perhaps another effect, but potency?

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

What? Lol sorry I don’t mean to laugh. It’s just a more “powerful” channeled heal. Toss it on a party member and that’s it. There is nothing special about it to be honest. I’ve used it on the tank during wall to wall pulls and I still need to toss a heal or 2 on the tank during it sometimes, especially if the tank blows all their cds carelessly.

There just isn’t enough oof you know. Adding something more to it will just be better. That’s all.

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Fairy responsiveness has made this ability so much more useful. Why would you want to put that on the GCD?! I'm interested in your thought process behind that. Most healers will avoid using GCDs to heal considering the damage output doesn't justify it.

Putting that aside, you have enough defensive abilities as a SCH to sustain a tank alongside Union without needing to cast heals. Unless it was an undergeared tank who doesn't use CDs, but that's a niche scenario. I also disagree with giving it more effects partly because of the reason stated by Semirhage, but also because the healing kits really don't need to be buffed further.

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Originally Posted by OtakuSempai

This is precisely my point. Healing isn't required in this game and this is why we're even talking about ED, when I believe it should be exactly what you just mentioned. Let's talk about why the devs insist on making most of our healing kit superfluous, the real issue, not ED which is the only thing that gives SCH any amount flavor and differentiation from other healers.

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I'm considering making a Thread dedicated to GCD healing being a outdated system that hasn't been expanded upon and it boggles my mind why. oGCD relying gameplay is technically more skillful since you need to manage cooldowns but a unskilled player will have trouble with that so they fall back to GCD healing which makes their DPS suffer. We need to overhaul GCD healing to be a return on investment and reward us for actually doing our job instead of punishing us. Either that or cut the bloat and i'd rather the core healing principle of each job actually interacted with the rest of the kit rather than contribute more to GCD Nuking + oGCD healing.
Scholar would be able to get away with AF being purely a DPS resource if fey gauge and GCD heals meant something in this game.

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Originally Posted by Kabzy

Fairy responsiveness has made this ability so much more useful. Why would you want to put that on the GCD?! I'm interested in your thought process behind that. Most healers will avoid using GCDs to heal considering the damage output doesn't justify it.

Putting that aside, you have enough defensive abilities as a SCH to sustain a tank alongside Union without needing to cast heals. Unless it was an undergeared tank who doesn't use CDs, but that's a niche scenario. I also disagree with giving it more effects partly because of the reason stated by Semirhage, but also because the healing kits really don't need to be buffed further.

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I mean everyone’s entitled to their own opinion. I’m not saying yours is wrong or mines is right. I just don’t think fey union is worth the fey gauge for what it does. All it is a channeled regen which most scholars have been begging for anyway. You use to be able make embrace just heal the tank if you wanted and now that’s gone. Fey union is good as in your can make it just target a single party member. The fey gauge is just tacked on at this point. Fey union should just be a gcd heal that you can set and forget and continue to dps your little heart away. Being tied to the fey gauge that needs 10 gauge to use is useless for what it does. If they added something else on top of it then yeah it would make it worth it. For what it is now it’s just not worth it.

That’s my opinion. That’s all.

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Originally Posted by kcedelic

Please remove energy drain, or make it only restore mp. As someone coming from sage, and wanting to learn scholar: Energy drain feels really out of place/clunky.

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Please remove energy drain???? It's literally your reward for playing well, getting to dump stacks that you don't need for healing into more damage for your team. You're suggesting they remove one of the main components of genuine choice in SCH's kit lol. I could understand calling it clunky in ShB but SCH has the 1.5s cast time on Broil now, you can just weave it in literally anywhere.
I'm confused how you can just suggest the entire removal of a part of SCH's kit and then call it "Genuine Feedback".

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Originally Posted by Hydrobyte

Please remove energy drain???? It's literally your reward for playing well, getting to dump stacks that you don't need for healing into more damage for your team. You're suggesting they remove one of the main components of genuine choice in SCH's kit lol. I could understand calling it clunky in ShB but SCH has the 1.5s cast time on Broil now, you can just weave it in literally anywhere.
I'm confused how you can just suggest the entire removal of a part of SCH's kit and then call it "Genuine Feedback".

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Energy Drain isn't a DPS reward, its a DPS necessity to not be the weakest Healer from a DPS standpoint. You could remove ED and make Ruin 2 consume AF while dealing Broil potency Damage, now Scholar can move without sacrificing DPS (and make full use of expedient) or slidecasting, you have a AF dump and Broil's potency can be adjusted to deal higher damage based on the amount of DPS ED gave on average. I'd prefer an overhaul from the ground up but beggars cant be choosers ig.

I'd honestly prefer if all the healers had an energy drain equivalent, but since that's very unlikely to happen, the next best option would be for SCH to not be uniquely penalized for using a major chunk of its toolkit. It works great in dungeons, but it's just not worth the trouble it causes when paired with a cohealer.

It distorts the entire healing meta for the same reasons AST's unique 1.5 cast times forced it to do everything in ShB, the situation is just reversed here, with every other healer having to go out of their way to accommodate SCH.

I like Energy Drain and the choice it provides but I can't see why everyone is so stressed to get that 100 potency out of it. I lose 100 potency from swapping targets too slowly on a regular basis. Over an entire encounter if a Scholar uses only Energy Drain they get 4 or 5 thousand more DPS potency while multiple DPS classes can do 900 or more potency with a single GCD. If you're failing an encounter because you didn't optimize Energy Drain there are far more important things happening that need to be fixed first. No one should feel "stressed" to use Energy Drain. I like that I can blow stacks before refreshing Aetherflow but I'm not sad if I actually have to heal instead. I did wish they hadn't nerfed the damage from Energy Drain into the ground but clearly they couldn't think of a better solution.

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Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

Energy Drain isn't a DPS reward, its a DPS necessity to not be the weakest Healer from a DPS standpoint. You could remove ED and make Ruin 2 consume AF while dealing Broil potency Damage, now Scholar can move without sacrificing DPS (and make full use of expedient) or slidecasting, you have a AF dump and Broil's potency can be adjusted to deal higher damage based on the amount of DPS ED gave on average. I'd prefer an overhaul from the ground up but beggars cant be choosers ig.

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Yeah I agree with you it is a necessity to match other healer's damage. But that's what I mean by reward, playing well and NOT having to use AF on healing gives you that capability to match or outdamage. It rewards good play imo. Ofc you could argue having a team that stands in AOEs and and makes you use AF would make that reward less tangible and I'd agree but the point still stands lol.
To changing it to be on Ruin 2, that's a pretty interesting idea and honestly I didn't think of that. Could be an idea worth talking about. But I didn't reply because the OP was workshopping interesting changes to ED, I replied because they were talking about "removing" it or "removing the damage" from it in its current state. THAT'S what I took issue with.

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Originally Posted by kcedelic

Please remove energy drain, or make it only restore mp. As someone coming from sage, and wanting to learn scholar: Energy drain feels really out of place/clunky. I understand the potency is very low, but the min max part of my brain suggest not to use those heals to do more damage. Please, just remove that inkling from my head and don't tie the healing resource to dps.

It feels good on white mage because the blood lily is rewarded from healing, not from not healing.

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In higher end content MP management is extremely important because you'll be using MP constantly at a rate that Lucid Dreaming or natural MP tick will not keep up with since you cant have Lucid Dreaming on indefinitely.

This is a wall both SCH and AST ran into in past expansions which was forcing them to use sub optimal Piety gear because they would burn out of MP and the trade off led to losses in dps since Piety is a really bad sub stat over WHM who needed no extra piety at all due to have an extra MP regeneration method outside Lucid dreaming.

So if you want to Min/Max you'll need to note that MP Regeneration is extremely important part of your toolkit. No MP = No Dps, No Rezzes, No healing.

Really, the skill I want to make Energy Drain feel less bad is another DPS oGCD, which is treated as a part of SCH’s baseline damage. Let’s say it deals 300 potency and has a 30s cooldown. How do we make Energy Drain work with this? Well, we don’t. We make Aetherflow heals do. People who remember Stormblood Scholar and any of my posts from Shadowbringers know where I’m going with this. Bring back Quickened Aetherflow’s effect and slap it on this ability. Every time you heal with Aetherflow, you reduce it by 5 seconds, translating into 50 potency. It doesn’t completely negate the management involved (in fact we kinda want charges on this new ability for consistency), but it helps with SCH’s raid DPS and lessens the penalty of Energy Drain to the point you’re still healing over a WHM, without negating it entirely. In fact you get to juggle more things in your weave windows when fights are solved which is a good thing.

This expansion I leveled Sage first, then I picked up SCH and levelled it later. I imagine many who tried Sage are former experienced SCH mains and comfy on that class, so experiencing SCH from the perspective of a Sage player was interesting.

In many ways, SCH is absolutely "Sage but worse". Sage Sacred Soil is so much more superior it's not even funny. Sage GCD shields being instant cast is a massive upside. Panhaima is much less hassle than Seraph. The mobility is free. Taurochole gives more control than Excog. Overall I expected to hate SCH, but was rather surprised that I didn't.
SCH has a habit of some oGCD's locking you out from other oGCD's. Seraph will lock you out from Fey Union, Fey Blessing and Dissipate. Dissipate will lock out your entire fairy toolkit and Fey gauge generation. Fey Union gets broken by other fairy abilities. But in a way this made the class more interesting to play than Sage because you can't just blow your oGCD's blindly. You have to consider how they interact with other oGCD's or how it may affect the next 22-30 sec. You also have to consider the position of your source point (fairy). I actually liked that.

With that in mind, Energy Drain doesn't feel interesting. If you care about optimization, it just feels bad to aether heal. It feels like some heals have a penalty, while Sage feels like the whole toolkit is yours to enjoy. Without Energy Drain, Dissipate would be a far more enjoyable heal tool without that thought at the back of your mind "I should use this on cd, +300 potency, don't want to lose a use". The class already has enough oGCD management to keep the toolkit interesting.
The change I'd enjoy most is to remove Energy Drain and make Ruin II an Aether spender with equal potency to Broil. If you use Aetherflow while you still have stacks, they become Aethercharge (max 3) which can also be used to cast Ruin II. Give's SCH a bit of a mobility niche and just makes it feel good to play.

The other thing is, considering SCH oGCD's require more thought or management than Sage oGCDs, they shouldn't be worse. Fairy potency still exists (roughly 0.89x in a full party). This means Whispering Dawn is straight up worse than Physis II by a lot. Sage bubble is far better than Soil. Taurochole is better than excog. Fey Union being nerfed to 267 was unwarranted and Blessing should be a real heal and not just SCH's bad Horoscope/Plenary.
SCH should have powerful oGCD's that reward you for mapping them between the fairy, Place, Dissipate and Seraph. I'd buff Dawn, Union and Blessing significantly at the least and maybe expand soil radius.

Expedient is pretty good. I'm fairly sure I stated this was rubbish in the past, so I'll admit I was wrong. 20 sec is a lot of mobility when Sprint only gives 10. That said, Pneuma is ridiculously good too so both have their advantages, but it's a nice niche.

Honestly Panhaima really needs a stack nerf. Shave one off. Maybe two, but one for sure. It’s the strongest heal in the game at the moment. Though I guess AST has two competitors to that.

As for Scholar, Soil and Excog have their upsides versus Kerachole/Taurochole, and as bad as Protraction (is it is a weaker Benison at its absolute worst) it synergizes well with Scholar’s overall kit. I find that they’re still more reliable than Sage in spite of being weaker. Dissipation is a major factor in that. Sage has no direct equivalent to that.

Expedient is a prog healer’s best tool. It’s not a good speedkill button outside of dungeons, but far from worthless. It’s Temperance at worst and two-three Rescues at best.

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Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

Honestly Panhaima really needs a stack nerf. Shave one off. Maybe two, but one for sure. It’s the strongest heal in the game at the moment. Though I guess AST has two competitors to that.

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Where did you get that from? Liturgy of the Bell is much stronger.

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Originally Posted by rewd

Where did you get that from? Liturgy of the Bell is much stronger.

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Lilybell isn’t the same as a self-stacking shield that you can carry anywhere in the arena and also has 50% more downtime. Panhaima is the strongest cooldown because it’s doing more than just heavy throughput and also doesn’t go away if the healer that used it dies. Seraph is the worst of the bunch in throughput but in terms of QoL I’d take Seraph over Lilybell.

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Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

Lilybell isn’t the same as a self-stacking shield that you can carry anywhere in the arena and also has 50% more downtime. Panhaima is the strongest cooldown because it’s doing more than just heavy throughput and also doesn’t go away if the healer that used it dies. Seraph is the worst of the bunch in throughput but in terms of QoL I’d take Seraph over Lilybell.

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You said "strongest heal" and Panhaima objectively isn't that.

You can keep moving the goalposts and set arbitrary conditions if you will, but I'll leave you have all the fun with it.