Your Dark Knight players are unhappy. あなたの暗闇騎士プレイヤーは不幸です

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Originally Posted by shao32

it's a general comment but consider the tank forum history, DRK threads history to be more precise and the huge amount of feedback and issues with the job unadressed i won't be surprised that comment is being aimed to us and Healer sub-forum too, i pretty much belive they see our forum and our complains and they choose to don't do anything or worst just the contrary of what we ask despite being so many ppl posting feedback with good faith in hope to make DRK have a unique and better designed gameplay experience.

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That’s a very childish and immature mindset. I hope the adults win out if what you said is the issue. If not, that’s a cancer, and they’ll be activision blizzard before you know it.

ダークナイトは大丈夫です。

ダークナイトは大丈夫ではありません。

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Originally Posted by Danelo

That’s a very childish and immature mindset. I hope the adults win out if what you said is the issue. If not, that’s a cancer, and they’ll be activision blizzard before you know it.

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Probably, im just tired of giving my feedback in the best way with my limitations and support another hundred more from others just to see patch after patch they do nothing about it, i thinked long ago about bring good manners and well presented threads just hoping they would listen and do it if they get at the same time good support from others, and they fairly did get support, more than other request that have been implemented just to still get nothing from them, more like the contrary by judging this expansion.

I just feel it's doesn't matter if we hold hands together, offer an apologice and offer our best well presented feedback or we just yell at them and insult them or whatever we aren't going to see a proper DRK anymore, to many years suffering since HW specially this last 3 to don't think it's a lost cause bcs they just didn't care before so why they would care now? DRK is first at dps right? my apologices i know i should be better than this.

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Originally Posted by shao32

I just feel it's doesn't matter if we hold hands together, offer an apologice and offer our best well presented feedback or we just yell at them and insult them or whatever we aren't going to see a proper DRK anymore, to many years suffering since HW specially this last 3 to don't think it's a lost cause bcs they just didn't care before so why they would care now? DRK is first at dps right? my apologices i know i should be better than this.

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The difference here is that faith can go a long way when the person or individual is reasonably open to criticism or discourse. The developers to all my understanding are simply not.

I don't know what to say anymore. They are on the path of becoming Blizzard tier greedy and dismissive. DRK isn't the only job they're ignoring right now, apparently. We are talking to a brick wall at the end of the day. One we're paying for to stare at, might I add.

Anyway, with no real competitor that will put this game in check, you will be spoonfed the same formula over and over again. This company was no different at the end of the day, also how about Matsuda's statement on NFT? I'm over at Lost Ark soon and I hope I can dettach myself from this game.

Yeah I don't believe Yoshi-P there. He says his team reads the Forums in all languages, but then said in an interview about two months ago that they have received zero feedback on issues like Blood Weapon and Heat Blast. Blood Weapon being so jank was a big issues throughout all of ShB and there are multiple threads talking about it, and yet despite apparently reading the Forums, his team is completely unaware that it's an issue. Either they are not actually reading the Forums and he's lying to get us to shut up, or his team is incompetent and unable to read feedback the moment their feelings are hurt. What a complete joke.

from reading all the threads and post about drk over the years its seems maybe the player community needs to take over drk development from the devs. option 1 is to revert to the 3.0 drk version and then as a collective and by majority vote make adjustments to drk from there on out. option 2 the community just design drk from scratch and makes adjustments as needed. this could be a first for SE to do something like this and make it work in their favor via press and more $ somehow.

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Originally Posted by Kalaam

This kind of gratuitous insult does not help in any way. More like giving excuses for dismissing this forum.

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Again with this? Pretty sure they deserve every bit of criticism so what do you mean gratuitous? Also there is no precedent that they actually do take anything away from this subforum if the last 6 years is anything to go by.

They can first apologize, create a dedicated tank/healer team then I'll stop. Until then they just prove me right.

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Originally Posted by AC9Breaker

ダークナイトは大丈夫です。

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Originally Posted by Sazuzaki

ダークナイトは大丈夫ではありません。

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そうですか？日本語に説明してください。

Just release lvl 90 DRK jump potions and we're gucci.

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Originally Posted by Agner

そうですか？日本語に説明してください。

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Oh god I don't think you want to read a crappy google translated essay

Try using DeepL instead, it is more accurate. Use simple sentences too.

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Originally Posted by stanleyyoung

from reading all the threads and post about drk over the years its seems maybe the player community needs to take over drk development from the devs. option 1 is to revert to the 3.0 drk version and then as a collective and by majority vote make adjustments to drk from there on out.

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No, it's gonna have to be reworked again hard.

3.0 Dark Knight was extremely overpowered. Permanent -10% INT, 15s -10% damage down on bosses 5-7s downtime, DOT on GCD, reactive cooldowns are banned, cooldowns fuelling DPS by taking damage is banned, only ends up in another re-work problem.

They are just going to have to suck it up and do it. TBN is pretty much a reactive cooldown only it's kinda lame. I would happily trade TBN to get a fleshed out and meaningful kit.

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Originally Posted by Sacrilegion

They are just going to have to suck it up and do it. TBN is pretty much a reactive cooldown only it's kinda lame. I would happily trade TBN to get a fleshed out and meaningful kit.

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At this point, I agree; if a single skill is why the job has to suffer playstyle wise, then remove it.

TBN was the big shift back in SB. The job was gutted like a fish in exchange for that, but it never felt or was worth it.

DRK's identity just feels bad. When it first came around it was meant to be the magic damage mitigation tank with parry as a secondary focus, and played that role very well. Over time it feels like its just become a generic tank with middle-of-the-pack mitigation, and now its kinda squishy with high damage output. Problem with the high damage output is that its oGCD heavy and feels very busy and a bit clunky at times, where I recall your oGCDS being used for buffs/mitigation (blood price, blood weapon, dark arts, shadowskin, etc).

It also used to have some reasonably reliable self sustain. While not being nearly as capable as a Warrior, they have slowly lost this part of their identity over the years. Thanks to things like the removal of blood price to fuel multiple dark arts/abyssal drain. Adding a CD to abyssal drain and making it share a CD with carve and spit, and the loss of soul survivor are key changes in this regard that come to mind. Especially without a significant buff to souleaters cure potency. A 300 potency cure every (roughly) 7 seconds just feels pointless. Works out to around 6-7% of your total HP, and in the higher end content that really doesn't make a difference. Feels more like a flavor gimmick than anything.

It would be nice to see a return to form with a focus on DRK being more geared towards magic damage mitigation and parrying, with more than just dark mind, and a boost to their self sustain. Be that a potency buff on the souleater cure or add a cure to each part of combo that increases in potency with each step, a way to reduce abyssal drains cd (perhaps a trait that replaces the garbage unleash trait?), add a cure to carve and spit, and/or bring back soul survivor. Just a few ideas.

I wanted to thank you for this thread by the way, you inspired be to do something similar: posting a polite (hopefully) open letter with a japanese translation mixed it in over in my native language's section of the forum.

At this point, I think it's safe to say it's literally impossible for the devs & Yoshi to pretend people aren't complaining about Dark Knight in the forums. If they continue to act as if there's nothing wrong, and ignore what everyone is saying... I'm going to lose a bit of respect for them to be honest.

I'm just waiting for PLD to become second in DPS and keep all their utility and survivability.

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Originally Posted by Mekhana

I'm just waiting for PLD to become second in DPS and keep all their utility and survivability.

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I followed Enhanced Unmend's trait to switch to PLD as my main upon reading it.

I've been playing DRK in many different settings since Heavensward. Not always as my main job, but sometimes it is, and this expansion it has been. I actually rather enjoy DRK's identity and core gameplay loop. Managing mana and doing a lot of burst using ogcds has been extremely fun this expansion especially in savage raids.

For me the problem is that the other tanks seemingly have many more spammable mitigation tools that do much more and cost less. but DRK has Oblation, which is fine I suppose but also Blackest Night, which is a dps loss if used to its fullest effect. This is not Heavensward anymore. Why is our damage being penalized for trying to do what a tank is supposed to do (take damage for the rest of the party and mitigate it)?

Personally, I think a simple solution would be to make Blackest Night's cooldown slightly longer, maybe 20 seconds, and make it so that when the shield expires and wasn't completely broken, the mana is refunded. This would make DRK's opener a little more reasonable too, as you can use the ability as a store of mana so that your natural regeneration doesn't overcap your bar. Also would make it so that the ability doesn't weirdly get weaker and unusable as you get more gear each tier.

My problem with DRK isn't actually with the job itself, I suppose you could say. All of its core ideas are interesting and fun to me and their combination is cool and unique. It's just that they all individually are being done better by the other tanks. PLD uses mana. GNB mashes ogcds, WAR arguably has the strongest spammable mitigation, especially in dungeons. There isn't really anything that DRK excels at other than damage which is weird because the other three jobs have so much utility on their non-damage buttons without sacrificing dps. Just read the tooltip for Nascent Flash.

Some of this is understandable as the tanks have to all perform a very similar role, but it wouldn't hurt to differentiate them a little more in terms of their non-essential mitigation toolbox. Otherwise, you get people complaining that DRK feels like it's not doing enough mitigation, etc. when in reality it's probably the other three tanks that now have way too many tools.

Since Yoshi-P said that the mods (and the devs) actually read the forum posts I think it might be worth to actually Re-Quote my Reddit post that i made with the Release/ Leak of the 6.0 Patch Notes, about the Major Issues that i see with DRK:

1.
Our Aoe combo still counts as Spells and doesn’t scale off of skill speed because of that. (unmend too btw) For whatever senseless reason.

The latest dev letter said "Each job can rest assured that a lot of them will see adjustments as well" this is one thing that needs to be done, at the very least.

2.
Delirium got 40% of its damage reduced meanwhile having its CD reduced by 30%. so we have 30% more uptime for a 40% damage loss (10% Delirium damage loss for 15 minute window), which is a Straight up Nerf, while still being a worse clone of Inner Release

3.
The Changes

"UnMenD rEdUceD yOuR gAP CLoSerS CoOlDoWN bY 5 sEcoNds " oh wow what a massive QOL change that made DRK busted 10/10 thank you !
(/s btw)

The new mitigation is decent, but PLD and WAR both got self healing while they have theirs active; meanwhile DRK can just go die in a Corner with its 10% mitigation that does nothing Else.

Also there were no buffs to TBN like lowering its shield, or make it last like 5 seconds longer

OR ACTUALLY FINALLY REWORKING IT, SO THAT THE MAIN MITIGATION NO LONGER HAS A DPS IMPACT AND REQUIRES MANA TO BE CAST, WHICH MEANS THAT SOME HEALERS CRIPPLE YOUR DPS.

No changes to the Living Dead.

Do i Need to comment that? DRK's are getting banned and kicked out of groups, because both the healers and we HATE this ability.

We have to Predict when the healer is gonna choke up and not save us in time, but will be able to full heal us after he Choked up which is really hard to do if you are not premade with VoIP and plan to use it.

Maybe make it "Store" all incoming healing while it is active and if you die you get like 5 seconds of invuln in which the healing is stored as well you get the full healing which was stored all applied at once? that would make it far more useful and give the Tank itself actual Agency over his ability, while not dooming you for using your "Saving Grace"

And all this together with the expansion where GNB gets a Nuke Skill that 1 cast of deals more damage than 2 Shadowbringers (oh great another OGCD) which also have a longer Cooldown.

Tone done the rudeness, I understand the frustration but if you read the posts you know it doesn't help at all.

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Originally Posted by Glaringsoul

Since Yoshi-P said that the mods (and the devs) actually read the forum posts I think it might be worth to actually Re-Quote my Reddit post that i made with the Release/ Leak of the 6.0 Patch Notes, about the Major Issues that i see with DRK:

1.
Our Aoe combo still counts as Spells and doesn’t scale off of skill speed because of that. (unmend too btw) For whatever fucking reason.

The latest dev letter said "Each job can rest assured that a lot of them will see adjustments as well" this is one thing that needs to be done, at the very least.

2.
Delirium got 40% of its fucking damage reduced meanwhile having its CD reduced by 30%. so we have 30% more uptime for a 40% damage loss, which is a Straight up Nerf, while still being a worse clone of Inner Release

3.
The Changes

"UnMenD rEdUceD yOuR gAP CLoSerS CoOlDoWN bY 5 sEcoNds " oh wow what a massive fucking QOL change that made DRK busted 10/10 thank you balance Team
(/s btw)

The new mitigation is decent, but PLD and WAR both got self healing while they have theirs active; meanwhile DRK can just go die in a Corner with its 10% mitigation that does nothing Else.

Also there were no buffs to TBN like lowering its shield, or make it last like 5 seconds longer

OR ACTUALLY FINALLY REWORKING IT, SO THAT THE MAIN MITIGATION NO LONGER HAS A DPS IMPACT AND REQUIRES MANA TO BE CAST, WHICH MEANS THAT SOME HEALERS CRIPPLE YOUR DPS.

No changes to the Living Dead.

Do i Need to comment that? DRK's are getting banned and kicked out of groups, because both the healers and we HATE this ability.

We have to Predict when the healer is gonna choke up and not save us in time, but will be able to full heal us after he Choked up which is really hard to do if you are not premade with VoIP and plan to use it.

Maybe make it "Store" all incoming healing while it is active and if you die you get the full healing which was stored all applied at once? that would make it far more useful and give the Tank itself actual Agency over his ability, while not dooming you for using your "Saving Grace"

And all this together with the expansion where GNB gets a Nuke Skill that 1 cast of deals more damage than 2 Shadowbringers (oh great another OGCD) which also have a longer Cooldown.

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Unfortunately sqex devs, who have never been to a bar, heard a crass joke, been otherwise exposed to “rough” language and are unable to take harsh but constructive criticism will not see this post due to the gratuitous use of “fucking”, 1 time, early in the post.

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Originally Posted by Danelo

Unfortunately sqex devs, who have never been to a bar, heard a crass joke, been otherwise exposed to “rough” language and are unable to take harsh but constructive criticism will not see this post due to the gratuitous use of “fucking”, 1 time, early in the post.

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Thanks for pointing that out.

Given the recent events i should have watched my language a bit more, and if someone felt insulted by me swearing to accentuate the point i am trying to make, i truly am sorry.

I went Ahead and fixed it together with some other misc. stuff; All points made are still Valid though (IMO).

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Originally Posted by Glaringsoul

Thanks for pointing that out.

Given the recent events i should have watched my language a bit more, and if someone felt insulted by me swearing to accentuate the point i am trying to make, i truly am sorry.

I went Ahead and fixed it together with some other misc. stuff; All points made are still Valid though (IMO).

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Sarcasm. Whoever signed off on DRK this go around deserves a little razzing; Not threats or anything of that nature. This forum is for people to express themselves, their frustrations, and their opinions. The general consensus is that DRK has and has had some serious problems and they have been unaddressed in gameplay or acknowledged by devs - sometimes both.

Most people have personal experience with customer service. When you put out a product that is “playing it safe”, to put it in the most generous light, and your consumers are angry you don’t get to sit back and point/blame shadows,“we didn’t see that in the forums”, or say amongst yourselves “well if they don’t like what we put out then screw ‘em - they can wait another two years”.

Successful companies and employees don’t set themselves in opposition to their customers, they align with them: “we thought we put out a product that players would enjoy in the form of DRK but we have received a great number of negative feedback. The specific feedback we have regarding issues are these… if you have additional please post them. We are pouring through it for future adjustments by patch ‘6.x’. Look forward to have more on this issue by ‘x’(actual date)”.

You know guys, being rude is just something for you to enjoy. It doesn't help in any way.
"thick skin" comments are meaningless. You wouldn't want to listen to me if I was demeaning or insulting, it's the same for everyone.

You can have a stern criticism without using a single insult, or suggesting that the devs are incompetent or lazy. I swear it's not that hard.

But if you want to give a reason to justify ignoring this side of the forums, be my guests.

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Originally Posted by Kalaam

You know guys, being rude is just something for you to enjoy. It doesn't help in any way.
"thick skin" comments are meaningless. You wouldn't want to listen to me if I was demeaning or insulting, it's the same for everyone.

You can have a stern criticism without using a single insult, or suggesting that the devs are incompetent or lazy. I swear it's not that hard.

But if you want to give a reason to justify ignoring this side of the forums, be my guests.

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That is the price they pay for ignoring DRK players for years. It is incompetent and lazy how it's been handled and anywhere else would have canned the dev for it. Harsh criticism and insults will stop when they stop.

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Originally Posted by Danelo

Unfortunately sqex devs, who have never been to a bar, heard a crass joke, been otherwise exposed to “rough” language and are unable to take harsh but constructive criticism will not see this post due to the gratuitous use of “fucking”, 1 time, early in the post.

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Insinuating that the devs are sheltered babies that will flee at the first sign of anything mean is an incredibly self-centered and entitled outlook.

Nobody likes people being rude to them and talking crap to them in pretty much any situation and when you spend a huge part of your life working on something, to have people so flippantly denigrate and insult not only that work, but you personally, guess what it wears on you no matter how tough you like to think you are.
It is very much possible, and actually quite easy, to provide feedback without resorting to rudeness and insults. When you start using insults as the delivery mechanism for your feedback, it quickly stops being constructive criticism and becomes just criticism.
If you want people to listen to you and be receptive to what you are saying, don't lace it with insults. This applies to life in general, not just here.

Also, in Japanese culture how criticism is provided and the level of direct rudeness that is socially acceptable is very different than in the most Western cultures.
When negative feedback is being presented it is often done in a softer, more round-about way that implies that something is wrong or bad without so directly coming out and saying it, however since this indirect way of speaking to things is commonplace it tends to be easily understood by the recipient/listener. For example, if you were make some food for somebody and they did not like it, instead of saying something like "it's terrible" or "it's bad", they may say something like "it's not to my taste".
General rudeness and directly insulting another person is very much seen as wrong and not acceptable, even being overly direct in interactions will likely raise eyebrows and draw disapproving looks. So while in many Western cultures, especially American, rude language and insults are fairly common and therefore may not be considered to carry much weight; in Japanese culture where that kind of thing is not the norm, such rudeness and insults carry way more weight and can therefore have more impact to those on the receiving end.
There is of course variance depending on the formality of the situation, as is the case with almost everything in Japanese culture. A parent may be very direct and harsh when talking to their child, but most interactions outside of direct family and friends tends to be seen as falling into the formal category, as would online communications on a forum like this one.
When the intended recipient of your communication is from a different culture, you should take into account cultural contexts and potential differences into those communications.

Just because you feel justified and okay with acting in such a way towards someone doesn't make it actually okay, and doubling down on it after being asked to stop is as I said at the beginning, self-centered and entitled behavior.

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Originally Posted by Sacrilegion

That is the price they pay for ignoring DRK players for years. It is incompetent and lazy how it's been handled and anywhere else would have canned the dev for it. Harsh criticism and insults will stop when they stop.

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An eye for an eye leaves the world blind. Get over your own frustrations and put the betterment of DRK above your personal grievances. Otherwise things won't improve.

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Originally Posted by Kalaam

You know guys, being rude is just something for you to enjoy. It doesn't help in any way.
"thick skin" comments are meaningless. You wouldn't want to listen to me if I was demeaning or insulting, it's the same for everyone.

You can have a stern criticism without using a single insult, or suggesting that the devs are incompetent or lazy. I swear it's not that hard.

But if you want to give a reason to justify ignoring this side of the forums, be my guests.

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Go back to reddit.

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Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

An eye for an eye leaves the world blind. Get over your own frustrations and put the betterment of DRK above your personal grievances. Otherwise things won't improve.

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Yeah why are you here? Things have not improved with politeness at all, quite opposite

Your rambling, and insulting does nothing either, it actually just derails the conversation.
So if we could get back to the actual topic, that'd be great.

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Originally Posted by Kalaam

Your rambling, and insulting does nothing either, it actually just derails the conversation.
So if we could get back to the actual topic, that'd be great.

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Never left the topic. DRK is an insult again to players and they deserve it, it will stop when they put their money where their mouth is.

If anything behaving like a caveman will only get us ignored, but if you wanna behave like you are in some garbage imageboard or twitter by all means.

Not behaving like a caveman. I'm not throwing threats, I'm expressing frustration. In fact, they are behaving like immature children. Their treatment of DRK is beyond insulting and politeness got us here. When people were rude to PLD, it got addressed immediately and now next update they are getting potency buffs. Warrior just blinks wrong, buffs. DRK with 6 years of polite and well presented issues, not even a mention. Even worse, animations went backwards, stuff ripped from the class and given to all tanks, blood weapon not on charges and not even completely 10 secs, living dead makes healers hate you, delirium got nerfed and is still a inferior inner release, TBN (which you all cling to for dear life) doesn't make up for what the other 3 tanks got. The reward for us? To only pull ever so slightly ahead in dps but you cause detrimental harm to your whole group.

Looks like this thread won't advance anything anymore.

I think the problem is most of us have already identified the current issues plaguing DRK as of now. We're just jumping in circles to a degree; some people have great ideas. I wish they would incorporate them.

What the developers should also realize is that frustration is a one way street. I'm perfectly willing to be respectful and civil in regards to how the job could potentially change. I understand that insults and hate can get in the way of development as it is demoralizing to a point. It's no different for us though, I want them to take that into consideration as well.

The response given seemed to be directed towards the JP playerbase, not us. I don't want to be all gloom and doom but perhaps they never look into the English forums. Anyhow, there's a breaking point and most of us are exhausted of giving feedback yet we still believe. Overall, respect goes both ways and we've shown great loyalty towards DRK and that is respectable.

Wasn't going to anyway, the last 6 years taught me they are going to defecate on DRK any chance they get. All I can do express my frustrations and hope for the best.