Does SGE need potency buffs?

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

I told someone "All that speculation about an alchemist/chemist/whatever type healer actually was right: we did get a new healer where you mix elements -- buffs and mitigations and heals and shields -- to come up with your perfect healing option. It just also came with flying laser knives."

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LMAO Yeah you're not entirely wrong. Now that I think about it all the precasts/weaves do kinda fit what a theoretical chemist would have done. That's pretty cool actually.

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Originally Posted by Miziliti

I still find SGE's entire kit a bit of a joke.

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I've seen the memes about "I can't keep my tank up" and "SGE can't recover and then I quote it when I stream or play with friends every time I save a run or burst heal everyone.

Especially if I know a double hits about to come and my cohealer is asleep at the wheel and not using my physis buff, I just zoe pneuma and "pop" everyone's topped.

I've also had no problem solo healing every time I get saddled with a WHM who can't be bothered to actually heal in EXes

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Originally Posted by Silvaren

The only potency I think really needs changed is Kardia as it feels so lacking for being a worse fairy that basically only targets the tank.

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I used to think Kardia was weak and then I forgot to apply it in a dungeon once. :P Then I realized it's not bad at all.

The funny thing is I told a lot of people that I fully expected people to say SGE is "underpowered" because it's main thing is rewarding you for dpsing and staying on top of heals steadily so you CAN dps to heal and I'm seeing some of that here and there.

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Originally Posted by Miziliti

I still find SGE's entire kit a bit of a joke. I constantly have double oGCD AoE heals to make sure party doesn't die on the next raid-wide after. Where as when I play SCH, one Indom and some fairy passive heals can easily breeze through. Add Recitaion+Indom and my co-healer don't even need to heal. SGE is fun and all, but one day some people are gonna be fed up with having to babysit with stacking low potency heals all the time.

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Sage literally has an Indom clone. Sage Embrace can be targeted wherever you like, buffed, and you don't Dissipate it. Sage sacred Soil is superior in every way. Sage GCD shields can be used while moving.

Physis II is more potency on one button than Reci + Indom.

You have a 900 potency raid heal cooldown.

Whatever feelings you have about Sage heals being weak is in your head.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Sage literally has an Indom clone. Sage Embrace can be targeted wherever you like, buffed, and you don't Dissipate it. Sage sacred Soil is superior in every way. Sage GCD shields can be used while moving.

Physis II is more potency on one button than Reci + Indom.

You have a 900 potency raid heal cooldown.

Whatever feelings you have about Sage heals being weak is in your head.

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You should be more precise and say that the "900 potency raid heal cooldown" is two different cooldowns being used together.

It needs a big buff at low levels in healing potency. It can't keep up with healing at level 50 and below dungeons compaired to the others. I did a level 50 hard dungeon tank pulled 3 groups and could keep him healed fast enough. To me it's a trash healer and only does good dps.

Sage is actually pretty damn solid, the problem they have is some of their buttons are clunky for no reason at all, lemme give a couple of examples.

Eukraisan Dosis: I absolutely hate managing this because we are either always going to clip a tick or it's going to fall off because we have to account for the extra 1s recast animation when we press Eukraisa. Other healers just press their DoT we have to press another button which makes the timing wonky. Just detach Eukraisan Dosis from Eukraisa and make it it's own button.

Phlegma: Again another button that is hampered by jankiness when it doesn't need to be, it locks out your ability to weave it cleanly with Dosis (which is when you would be using Phlegma as it's typically used under raid buffs) just take that hamstringing provision away and let it be a true OGCD.

Pepsis: hampered heavily by the fact it requires shield to trigger which makes it an entire reactionary ability in a proactive kit. I only use Pepsis if I don't have Ixochole or Holos off CD and the party needs an emergency top off for a incoming raid wide. Pepsis for its cooldown probably needs to lose the consumes shield gate and instead does bonus healing when consuming shield.

Fix those things and the SGE will be in an excellent spot.

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Originally Posted by hynaku

It needs a big buff at low levels in healing potency. It can't keep up with healing at level 50 and below dungeons compaired to the others.

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This is almost impossible. At level 50 EDiag is quite close in Potency to Cure II and can be used while moving. WHM by comparison doesn't really have anything else, just Bene on a massive cd while Sage gets a 600 potency heal on a tiny 20 sec cooldown that you can bank 3 of. To top it off Sage is getting Kardia as a bonus. Even further, Sage is gaining free mana for their oGCD heal, while WHM at 50 gets nothing and will empty significantly faster on big pulls.

Sage heal potential is just straight up superior to WHM at 50. Again, Sage might feel weak because you had a bad tank or you're learning the class, but it's in your head.

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Originally Posted by rewd

You should be more precise and say that the "900 potency raid heal cooldown" is two different cooldowns being used together.

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Sure, that's true. It's just used that way most of the time and far better than things like Synastry. It's nice that Zoe is flexible too, for example if you wanted big shields.

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Originally Posted by Miziliti

I still find SGE's entire kit a bit of a joke. I constantly have double oGCD AoE heals to make sure party doesn't die on the next raid-wide after. Where as when I play SCH, one Indom and some fairy passive heals can easily breeze through. Add Recitaion+Indom and my co-healer don't even need to heal. SGE is fun and all, but one day some people are gonna be fed up with having to babysit with stacking low potency heals all the time.

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I think you are playing it all wrong my guy. It is a powerful healer for what it is meant to do, just try not to play it too much like SCH and play it for what it is - a Sage.

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Originally Posted by Navnav

I think you are playing it all wrong my guy. It is a powerful healer for what it is meant to do, just try not to play it too much like SCH and play it for what it is - a Sage.

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people seem to miss that SGE is extremely proactive as opposed to reactive, their entire kit revolves around mitigation and pre-shielding to soak and slow incoming damage with a few skills to top off as necessary. They can burst heal in a jam but not as good as a WHM or AST can who are built for it.

Heck they can make multi-stage mechanics a breeze a good example is P1S there's a certain set of mechanics where Multi raid wides go out and Panhaima + Kerrichole + Holos trivalizes it.

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

Eukraisan Dosis

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I do think it's kinda silly that our DoT of all things is on eukrasia but also think that constantly hitting Eukrasia before normal damage would be a nightmare.

There's a few possible solutions I can think of for that.

1. Have Eukrasia be able to be queued without removing our ability to cast dosis so that we can be more forwarding thinking with shields and/or dot.

2. Find another way to augment Dosis with Eukrasia that's more "interesting" like making it a mini pneuma or aoe or something else. Because of Dyskrasia and Phlegma they have good aoe options already.

3. Make E.Dosis the instant castable version of dosis on the move, equivalent to the other E skills so that it can be used as a more reliable ruin 2 versus the Toxicon jank. It would be contextual and only used in smaller situations but at least would make it where using Eukrasia wouldn't make you reapply a dot or have your dot locked behind it without being able to dosis inbetween.

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

Phlegma

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I actually don't mind Phelgma being on a GCD because it means I know I can use set damage and move during those times without wasting a Dosis cast. If I know I'm about to have to move with buff window or need to preposition I know I can cast Phlegma and reposition without any dps loss.

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

Pepsis

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Don't really agree on Pepsis. It's snappy as hell imo to be able to cast a shield and instantly use Pepsis and it crack the shield to heal. I can only imagine what this would have been if we had the last expacs shields solutions like cascading shields and such.

Pepsis being a reactionary tool like ED just backwards makes perfect sense and works with the kit imo. If I know I need to move and group heal I can use pepsis and the cooldown is short enough where I can reliably use it for raid wides if absolutely necessary or my cohealer is asleep at the wheel.

Pepsis being able to crit as well shows that they took reactive healing and cohealing into account when making the skill. As they can easily top someone off before a SCH shields as a cohealer, or have it be buffed under Physis (I believe) to recover.

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

people seem to miss that SGE is extremely proactive as opposed to reactive, their entire kit revolves around mitigation and pre-shielding to soak and slow incoming damage with a few skills to top off as necessary. They can burst heal in a jam but not as good as a WHM or AST can who are built for it.

Heck they can make multi-stage mechanics a breeze a good example is P1S there's a certain set of mechanics where Multi raid wides go out and Panhaima + Kerrichole + Holos trivalizes it.

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You're right in regards to the class being great at preshielding and mitigating to avoid needing heals but I don't have any issues with big burst heals with pneuma/zoe/physis being a thing. A physis + e.shield + Pepsis is great burst healing and it has plenty of extra tools to use in conjunction with different mechanics to recover.

Just because you're supposed to keep up with shields and mitigates and not have to burst heal doesn't mean SGE can't do it. I'd say SCH and SGE are both "reasonably" punished for letting people die or take damage as mitigation healers but aside from Regens I don't see how SGE's recovery is "bad" in my experience in EXes and brief intro to Savage.

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Originally Posted by Navnav

I think you are playing it all wrong my guy. It is a powerful healer for what it is meant to do, just try not to play it too much like SCH and play it for what it is - a Sage.

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SGE and SCH have a very similar playstyle so this is not the issue (and Liam already expressed what's wrong with that comment). It would be better to say not to play SGE like AST, or worse, WHM.

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Originally Posted by hynaku

It needs a big buff at low levels in healing potency. It can't keep up with healing at level 50 and below dungeons compaired to the others. I did a level 50 hard dungeon tank pulled 3 groups and could keep him healed fast enough. To me it's a trash healer and only does good dps.

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Sounds less like SGE is a trash healer and more like you got a trash tank. SGE can heal level 50 content just fine. It may not have many of its fun abilities, but E.Diagnosis while running, Kardia, and Druochole should be more than enough. You should also have Physis that you can pop for an extra HoT - pair it with Kerachole for mitigation (just because it doesn’t have the HoT at level 50 doesn’t mean you can’t use it to mitigate incoming autos on the tank).

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Sounds less like SGE is a trash healer and more like you got a trash tank. SGE can heal level 50 content just fine. It may not have many of its fun abilities, but E.Diagnosis while running, Kardia, and Druochole should be more than enough. You should also have Physis that you can pop for an extra HoT - pair it with Kerachole for mitigation (just because it doesn’t have the HoT at level 50 doesn’t mean you can’t use it to mitigate incoming autos on the tank).

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ive tanked wall to wal pulls as sage in lv 50 dungeons. AS SAGE. that person is probably a diagnosis spammer

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Sage literally has an Indom clone. Sage Embrace can be targeted wherever you like, buffed, and you don't Dissipate it. Sage sacred Soil is superior in every way. Sage GCD shields can be used while moving.

Physis II is more potency on one button than Reci + Indom.

You have a 900 potency raid heal cooldown.

Whatever feelings you have about Sage heals being weak is in your head.

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You are pretty much in your head too. Any good healer can right away know they need to play SGE effectively by pairing shield/damage reduction/healing boost/regen alongside raw healing. At the same time, other healers only need to perform one action to be equivalent with SGE's double actions. Just because I think SCH is better, a bunch went directly into personal insults. Nice. SGE don't need this SGE don't need that. Okay, let's make sure SGE aren't getting any adjustments until next expansion.

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Originally Posted by Miziliti

You are pretty much in your head too. Any good healer can right away know they need to play SGE effectively by pairing shield/damage reduction/healing boost/regen alongside raw healing. At the same time, other healers only need to perform one action to be equivalent with SGE's double actions. Just because I think SCH is better, a bunch went directly into personal insults. Nice. SGE don't need this SGE don't need that. Okay, let's make sure SGE aren't getting any adjustments until next expansion.

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There are no personal insults, just facts.
Ixo and Indom are literally the same: they consume a resource both recover every 20s on average, on 30s cooldown and have the same potency.
If you used an Indom on SCH, you'd use an Ixo on SGE.
If you used a WD + Indom on SCH, you'd use a Physis II + Ixo on SGE.
If you used a Recit + Indom on SCH, you'd use a (Zoe +)Pneuma on SGE. Raw Pneuma, without Zoe, is already equal to Recit + Indom.
If you used Seraph + Consolation on SCH, you'd use Panhaima on SGE.
Kardia autos have higher potency per tick than fairy autos and are targetable.

You can combine skills for slightly better effect and it makes the difference between a decent and a good SGE, like snapshotting Physis II heal buff, but being needlessly dramatic by saying you have to use more buttons on SGE just to keep the raid from dying while you can breeze through everything with a single button on SCH doesn't help to get your point across when the numbers tell a completely different story.

SGE could use some adjustments but potencies aren't the problem.
Toxikon is lackluster and its Addersting generation awkward, Rhizomata is boring and Pepsis has an unjustly high cooldown for being more niche than ET. All of those things are not part of the "main kit" of SGE (as in things you constantly use), though, so overall it's a really well-designed healer.
They could mostly solve the Toxikon/ Addersting problem by giving us an Eukrasian Toxikon that restores 7% MP and consumes an Addersgall stack instead of Addersting, also solving the "I have to overheal for MP" gripe some people have with SGE.
Rhizomata could also give an Addersting stack or a small buff for the next Addersgall heal or maybe get a complete redesign.
Pepsis just needs a much lower cooldown. It's niche, it's okay, but the cooldown is too high.

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Originally Posted by Miziliti

Just because I think SCH is better, a bunch went directly into personal insults.

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It wasn't an insult, you just took it as one. "In your head" means that it feels like SCH is superior because it's a class you're familiar and comfortable with. That's common for anyone starting a new class. Numerically and factually however Sage heals are equal or in some cases better than SCH equivalents. It's just how it is and realizing that will help you become a better healer.

Sage doesn't need double actions more than other healers as shown in the post above.

My biggest problem with SGE right now is only that, if a fight has no downtime and you don't need to use e.diagnosis, you're left with only 1 to 3 toxicon max per fight. (yes cause there are some fight with no raidwide aoe at the start).
I think it should get adjustment.

Otherwise, SGE is really good.

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Originally Posted by OtakuSempai

Basically this. Only changes I would want on SGE are literally anything that veers away from this.

Toxickon an ogcd with more ways to get it, pneuma on a short CD, phlegma not being clunky, etc.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I’d prefer Phlegma as the oGCD since Toxikon is better as a movement tool being that it doesn’t have a melee requirement. Phlegma is kind of akin to WHM’s Assize, at least in terms of being a skill you just blow on cooldown. (And it’s the same durations as well.)

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I hear and understand why you say that.
But to be honest, I feel like they both are part of Sage mobility tools and they feel great to use for this.
For this reason, I prefer them to stay as GCD action.

I could agree for phlegma if we had an other way to generate Addersting stack or if this mechanic was slighly reworked.

Yeah i wouldn't want either Toxicon or Phlegma be OGCD's. They work fine the way they are now though Phlegma's range could be adjusted a little. More ways to generate Addesrting would make that mechanic far better esp in fights with 0 downtime but i kinda like the idea of the E.Diag shield exploding upon breaking dealing 330 potency damage so E.Diag isnt a DPS loss when fishing for Toxicon, just a Mana loss. And being able to use E.Diagnosis mid fight also contributes to our mobility.

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Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

Phlegma's range could be adjusted a little.

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Agreed. I don't mind the melee requirement, but it could help sometime to have more range on it.

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Originally Posted by Miziliti

Okay, let's make sure SGE aren't getting any adjustments until next expansion.

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If only. I'd be satisfied with that.

Also sage doesn't really need to shield much. I think p4s is the only place that requires shields? Who knows after people are BiS.

Kinda casual healer here. Personally I just wish for some way to generate more addersting other than breaking Eukrasian shields. Because sometimes I'd end up with another Sage as co-healer. As for shields and heals I think they're alright, I used to worry about lack of panic buttons but it's pretty much covered in higher levels imo.

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Originally Posted by Jannosuke

Kinda casual healer here. Personally I just wish for some way to generate more addersting other than breaking Eukrasian shields. Because sometimes I'd end up with another Sage as co-healer. As for shields and heals I think they're alright, I used to worry about lack of panic buttons but it's pretty much covered in higher levels imo.

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If anything SGE should have less panic buttons because the shield healers should reward understand what the fight needs from the healers

Yes I want a potency buff on E prognosis to 250 or least 200 since we cannot spread E diag which hurts. E diag is stupidly powerful and when I pop a crit with zoe and use that on myself/dps = full hp cover and shield takes lil to no damage or even on tank=half of their hp is covered which just hurts that I cant spread it. Do not get why e prog is weak its annoying. I know people tend to use zoe for pneuma but honestly I rarely ever if seem to need to use it unless I feel like press another button. I will honestly say to me like ast synastry, pneuma is so niche even though its good. But yes jesus buff E pro, holos makes it a total meme. Side notes

Soteria=aoe kardia
Zoe-=base cd needs to be 90 seconds with 60 seconds at trait and also should be 100% crit on the next heal spell a sage do.
rhizomata=give full addersting not addergall, because am good at managing my addergall stacks unless its a total 7 sprout party
Krasis= Should be available more earlier in levels
Pepis= This garbage needs to just be reworked to let us spread a E diag shield cause honestly the extra lil potency to break a E Diag/ E pro shield is not even worth it.
Toxicon= Potency buff would be nice to about 400, crazy how phelgma we get that at 26... and its so big on damage even at 26.
For all healers= Get our aoes at lvl 10 so I can stop leaving if I get a dungeon under lvl 46 as a healer, funny thing I just notice today sage and sch aoe is 46 not 45 like whm/ast lol.

E.Prog is equal in shield potency to Succor, just that it has less upfront potency because regular Prognosis exists. It can also be used while moving, while Succor cannot. Buffing E.Prog would put SCH in the grave for progression

Do we really need to make SGE even more a copy of SCH? lmfao.

At that point people should just learn play SCH.

Shield healers can already out-heal pure healers, if you're getting to the point you need a safety button...you've already done something extremely wrong. In dungeons, focus on helping the tank with mitigations (if even needed) [Taurochole, Holos, Kerachole, Physis, Haima, Panhaima, are all your friends and should be used before they get to that point, make sure you have Kardia up and weave your mits (Again, if even needed)]. In harder content, focus on regens (If even needed).

In fact Taurochole, Druochole are basically your safe button...lel they exist already.

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Originally Posted by Jannosuke

Kinda casual healer here. Personally I just wish for some way to generate more addersting other than breaking Eukrasian shields. Because sometimes I'd end up with another Sage as co-healer. As for shields and heals I think they're alright, I used to worry about lack of panic buttons but it's pretty much covered in higher levels imo.

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Yeah, it's more the level spread. SGE has a lot of powerful abilities, you just don't get a lot for a while/until later levels.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

If anything SGE should have less panic buttons because the shield healers should reward understand what the fight needs from the healers

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Nothing wrong with diversity. WHM/AST have a dichotomy, so SGE/SCH having one as well makes sense.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Yeah, it's more the level spread. SGE has a lot of powerful abilities, you just don't get a lot for a while/until later levels.



Nothing wrong with diversity. WHM/AST have a dichotomy, so SGE/SCH having one as well makes sense.

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Yes WHM and AST have a dichotomy, WHM and space WHM, such an important distinction