Seems like blue dps is still king so DRK will rule the savage

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Originally Posted by baklava151

Where can I trade off DPS for a fun class

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I went to main RPR. Somehow RPR has mitigated through 6.05 and only lost in utility despite being busted damage-wise. Maybe RPR is class who can MT the meta?

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Originally Posted by Sazuzaki

I don't think anyone is gonna stop being hyperbolic. I mean, I agree with you but I think everyone else has every right to be upset of the state of current DRK. Whether they exaggerate or not doesn't really matter, and I feel like that's more of a personal problem of yours rather than everyone else.

I don't think people are gonna be too happy when things like Living Dead and BW haven't been changed, even after being shouted out in the ENG and JP forums for so long.

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Being upset is ok, more than ok in fact. Voicing concerns is perfectly fine, it's how that concern is being voiced that is the problem.

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Originally Posted by jadeblade

World first was DRK , GNB and blue dps is ever more important so they will rule.

So for all DRK whining in this forum, they are in a Good spot and no , no one cares about dungeons , if you squishy pulling wall to wall that’s the price you pay to be top blue dps.

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So your assessment is "DRK does good damage, therfore absouletly fine + no one cares about anything other than extreme/savage content (which excludes, like, the entire main story btw)"

You're literally whats wrong with this games identity crisis at the moment.

It's a Tank, no one cares/should care how much damage it does. That's not its primary role in a party, it's not even its secondary role in the party. And it shouldn't dictate general use/effectiveness in any gameplay outside of very deliberate speeds runs. Curious, what % of players do you reckon do that? Because that's what you basing DRK's performance off.

I bet you're one of these people who basis a healers performance off of its dps too, aren't you? Sad.

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Originally Posted by Ignimortis

I went to main RPR. Somehow RPR has mitigated through 6.05 and only lost in utility despite being busted damage-wise. Maybe RPR is class who can MT the meta?

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Might wanna double check the data. I know everyone wants to believe RPR is the most busted melee dps to ever exist yet when we start to look at optimisation of runs...it's not RPR in that number one spot, it's MNK.

It's a lot closer at the top end than forum posters would like people to think, MNK overtakes in optimisation runs but at are not far behind and often dead even in prog, SAM is just a whisker behind both. NIN and DRG are more awaiting results after their buffs because before both jobs were massively under performing.

The reason RPR is everywhere? It's a very easy rotation and pick up and play friendly giving it a very stable base of performance, but they aren't number one, that spot belongs to the optimisation requiring MNK.

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

Might wanna double check the data. I know everyone wants to believe RPR is the most busted melee dps to ever exist yet when we start to look at optimisation of runs...it's not RPR in that number one spot, it's MNK.

It's a lot closer at the top end than forum posters would like people to think, MNK overtakes in optimisation runs but at are not far behind and often dead even in prog, SAM is just a whisker behind both. NIN and DRG are more awaiting results after their buffs because before both jobs were massively under performing.

The reason RPR is everywhere? It's a very easy rotation and pick up and play friendly giving it a very stable base of performance, but they aren't number one, that spot belongs to the optimisation requiring MNK.

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As far as party utility+DPS go, the ideal top DPS order should be something like SAM>DRG=MNK>RPR>NIN, shouldn't it? So MNK and RPR are a bit ahead of the curve in that regard, and both were expected to get some potency hits in 6.05.

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Originally Posted by Ignimortis

As far as party utility+DPS go, the ideal top DPS order should be something like SAM>DRG=MNK>RPR>NIN, shouldn't it? So MNK and RPR are a bit ahead of the curve in that regard, and both were expected to get some potency hits in 6.05.

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Except that's actually wrong. Because RPR outside of a singular party buff is an extremely selfish DPS and the reason MNK is over performing when optimizing is because of RoW.

Auto attacks are a huge part of a dps'es performance. RPR/SAM/MNK already have great auto attacking as nothing they do outside of moving out of range or facing away (thus cancelling/losing autos themselves) throw in that MNK gives themselves a 50% auto attack refresh buff and you're in for some very nutty numbers.

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Originally Posted by Ignimortis

As far as party utility+DPS go, the ideal top DPS order should be something like SAM>DRG=MNK>RPR>NIN, shouldn't it? So MNK and RPR are a bit ahead of the curve in that regard, and both were expected to get some potency hits in 6.05.

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Why do people always act like NIN is some amazing utility job when they literally got none aside from lol-Feint? They lost all their utility when aggro management stopped being a thing in SHB. Trick is not utility - it's a raid dps buff and as such, is already accounted for in the rDPS rankings(aka all that people look at since certain website switched to those), at which NIN is again positioned rather poorly.

If you're going to balance by utility, NIN and DRG should both be at the top of the rDPS along with SAM, then BLM right after because they at least get Addle, which is far better than Feint. I'd even argue NIN and DRG should be ahead of SAM due to their rDPS being dependent on coordination with other people. However I am skeptical as to SE giving a crap about utility balancing, as the only melee dps with any are MNK and RPR and they're both up there in terms of aDPS and rDPS alike.

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Originally Posted by Daeriion_Aeradiir

DRK:
1) Rampart
2) Shadow Wall
3) Oblation (x2, giving it 7 defensives to play with if you truly want to get nitty gritty.)
4) Living Dead
5) TBN
6) Dark mind (Magic specific)

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Rampart and Shadow Wall are negligible since those are all shared cooldowns, just remember WAR has damage locked behind theirs, too.

Olbation is weaker than every other version of it that the tanks have, and having 2 charges doesn't make it another defensive, being on a 60 second recharge time means it is overall equivalent to a 30 second cooldown. TBN is actually not as good as people think. Don't get me wrong, it is fantastic but using it as an excuse to hold back the Dark Knight is pathetic, especially now. TBN is only actually useful if the mechanic hitting your TBN target would have killed them before the shield value, but under the condition that the target survives, every single other tank party-cooldown will leave them higher after its own optimal usage. This paired with the fact that the more damage taken the less valuable TBN really is also holds it back. TBN will only ever block the amount of HP it shields and so without a proper percentage based mitigation to pair with it, it will always be weaker, and pairing it with Oblation does not fill in this gap. Any damage that leaves a target under 50% hp is where most other abilities are noticeably superior, and those damage instances are the only ones worth looking at for tanks, as party healing is not the tanks priority. When I talk about DRK party mitigation I consider it pairing 100% of Oblations with a TBN and the math still always comes out saying DRK is inferior. It's fine that TBN doesn't hold up to them because of its accesibility, though, since being on a 15s cooldown is very nice. Just saying that it alone is so good that it shouldn't be able to otherwise compare with other tanks mitigative values is absurd. It's very good, but it alone is not enough to carry the job compared to the other tanks.

Dark Mind is a joke. There's so few encounters where it actually makes a difference. Camouflage is also not exclusive to magic damage, it is all damage with a parry rate. It may have a longer cooldown than Dark Mind, but it will overall always mitigate more damage than Dark Mind. It's a nice skill to have, but in comparison to other tanks, it's an absolute joke of an ability. Almost anyone who takes tanking seriously would easily trade it for something that is weaker, but more applicable to a variety of scenarios other than one extremely rarely filled niche.

And let's not even touch LD here... we all know...

Using damage as an excuse is also pretty bad since all you're really saying is that it's nice to have a DPS class that can help with tank swap mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Ryaduera

Using damage as an excuse is also pretty bad since all you're really saying is that it's nice to have a DPS class that can help with tank swap mechanics.

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The current damage of DRK isn't even that great right now, since GNB is within half a percent of DRK at the highest percentiles. So you essentially could replace DRK with GNB to get similar damage with a better kit.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

The current damage of DRK isn't even that great right now, since GNB is within half a percent of DRK at the highest percentiles. So you essentially could replace DRK with GNB to get similar damage with a better kit.

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That's also part of the problem, since GNB defensive tools are generally better as well. It just kind of reinforces that DRK isn't actually trading off for damage, but rather just pulling ever so slightly ahead of another tank that can do the tank part significantly better.

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

Except that's actually wrong. Because RPR outside of a singular party buff is an extremely selfish DPS and the reason MNK is over performing when optimizing is because of RoW.

Auto attacks are a huge part of a dps'es performance. RPR/SAM/MNK already have great auto attacking as nothing they do outside of moving out of range or facing away (thus cancelling/losing autos themselves) throw in that MNK gives themselves a 50% auto attack refresh buff and you're in for some very nutty numbers.

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Hmmm. Interesting, I completely forget about AAs a lot of the time, but MNK actually does have a very quick AA which presumably does the same damage as other melee' AAs with the same weapon damage.

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Originally Posted by Satarn

Why do people always act like NIN is some amazing utility job when they literally got none aside from lol-Feint? They lost all their utility when aggro management stopped being a thing in SHB. Trick is not utility - it's a raid dps buff and as such, is already accounted for in the rDPS rankings(aka all that people look at since certain website switched to those), at which NIN is again positioned rather poorly.

If you're going to balance by utility, NIN and DRG should both be at the top of the rDPS along with SAM, then BLM right after because they at least get Addle, which is far better than Feint. I'd even argue NIN and DRG should be ahead of SAM due to their rDPS being dependent on coordination with other people. However I am skeptical as to SE giving a crap about utility balancing, as the only melee dps with any are MNK and RPR and they're both up there in terms of aDPS and rDPS alike.

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Eh, if we're going by rDPS, then all melee should be somewhat equal with proper play (that's kinda the point of rDPS, the actual amount of DPS you provide to the raid?). You could even indeed argue that NIN and DRG could be ahead of SAM at the very top rDPS rankings due to good coordination, although I'm not sure that's a good idea, SAM already got the stink eye back in StB for being "selfish".

I was talking more about aDPS numbers. But yes, since aggro management (and Goad, can't forget Goad, before every melee got it, and then it got removed too with TP) is gone, NIN doesn't actually have a lot of utility that isn't a DPS buff. If you don't consider DPS buffs to be utility, then only RPR and MNK even have any special ones at this point.

I don't think that people play TANK just to play DPS at the end.

No one care about DPS on DRK being top tier dps doesn't mean that the job is good, everybody care about "Balance between job (dps+utility)", "Identity" and for tank "Mitigation".
A dps will basically care about... DPS first.

It is not a very wise argument to throw "good dps = good tank".

The rDPS difference between the strongest and weakest tanks is 291. The rDPS difference between the top and bottom of the DPS charts is 904. There is only 1 DPS within 291 of the top. Tank damage is very balanced within the role and anyone who tries to argue for a DRK being brought only for damage or for a PLD being benched for damage is batty. You could argue that the role should do more or less damage or something but that's it.

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Originally Posted by jadeblade

You need to start reading before commenting, yes DRK doesn’t have as much as sustain as WAR or PLD but they are top DPS. Do you read the part about the TRADE OFF?

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Did Gunbreaker trade off dungeon viability for top DPS last expansion? Did Paladin in Stormblood?

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Originally Posted by Falar

Did Gunbreaker trade off dungeon viability for top DPS last expansion? Did Paladin in Stormblood?

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The 2nd one is either the worst example ever or you mixed up Shadowbringer and Stormblood, playing Paladin in dungeons was an absolutely miserable experience in Stormblood.

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Originally Posted by DarkDredgen

So your assessment is "DRK does good damage, therfore absouletly fine + no one cares about anything other than extreme/savage content (which excludes, like, the entire main story btw)"

You're literally whats wrong with this games identity crisis at the moment.

It's a Tank, no one cares/should care how much damage it does. That's not its primary role in a party, it's not even its secondary role in the party. And it shouldn't dictate general use/effectiveness in any gameplay outside of very deliberate speeds runs. Curious, what % of players do you reckon do that? Because that's what you basing DRK's performance off.

I bet you're one of these people who *bases a healers performance off of its dps too, aren't you? Sad.

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Answer this: How do tanks get and maintain aggro? By doing damage with tank stance on.
If two tanks are fighting the same enemy, with stance on, whoever deals the most damage will more than likely hold aggro.
Dude you quoted has a point. Damage matters, and I'd say is the most important metric of any role in this game, regardless of icon color. The best way to prevent taking damage is to quickly defeat what is causing it.
Healers too should be judged on their damage. That's indicative of their proficiency in healing; they know just when healing is needed, and know to do damage when it is not. Especially more now that Sage exists, as it's healing is tied to it's damaging spells.

But you also have a point. Just because "numbers big" shouldn't justify / excuse the jobs inherent flaws. It's lack of identity, it's lack of self-sustain, it's ongoing state of being ignored when it comes to feedback about the job.

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

Except that's actually wrong. Because RPR outside of a singular party buff is an extremely selfish DPS and the reason MNK is over performing when optimizing is because of RoW.

Auto attacks are a huge part of a dps'es performance. RPR/SAM/MNK already have great auto attacking as nothing they do outside of moving out of range or facing away (thus cancelling/losing autos themselves) throw in that MNK gives themselves a 50% auto attack refresh buff and you're in for some very nutty numbers.

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Prior to the potency squishes, auto-attacks amounted to about 83.3 ppgcd (or, a consistent 100 potency per 3 seconds, though the interval may vary and the potency proportionately changed with hit, prior to Attack Speed bonuses). As any affects which increase GCD speed also affect Auto-attack speed, this doesn't change with job except under effects such as Riddle of Wind.

And Riddle of Wind amount to only about the potency of a Forbidden Chakra over its duration, so it's far from any significant unique advantage. With MNK weapons using a 2.56 cast, MNK deals ~85.3 potency per auto, and RoW therefore allows for 5-6 extra autos over its duration, in turn equalling 426.5 to 511.8 bonus potency, or at most 341.3 potency, less than an extra TFC, per minute. It's significant (though not greatly so), but not because of its having come from auto-attacks; the source is irrelevant.

If two tanks are fighting for aggro, they are being stupid is what they are xD They should cooperate and have one of them drop their stance.

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Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

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Answer this: How do tanks get and maintain aggro? By doing damage with tank stance on.
If two tanks are fighting the same enemy, with stance on, whoever deals the most damage will more than likely hold aggro.
Dude you quoted has a point. Damage matters, and I'd say is the most important metric of any role in this game, regardless of icon color. The best way to prevent taking damage is to quickly defeat what is causing it.
Healers too should be judged on their damage. That's indicative of their proficiency in healing; they know just when healing is needed, and know to do damage when it is not. Especially more now that Sage exists, as it's healing is tied to it's damaging spells.

But you also have a point. Just because "numbers big" shouldn't justify / excuse the jobs inherent flaws. It's lack of identity, it's lack of self-sustain, it's ongoing state of being ignored when it comes to feedback about the job.

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This doesn't make any snse lol. So what tank stances aren't a thing now? Having the skill (albeit small), to switch o nthe stance at the right time isn't a thing now no? What on earth are you talking about. This is not a good argument for tank damage. Say something else lmao...

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Originally Posted by Navnav

This doesn't make any snse lol. So what tank stances aren't a thing now? Having the skill (albeit small), to switch o nthe stance at the right time isn't a thing now no? What on earth are you talking about. This is not a good argument for tank damage. Say something else lmao...

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aight. lemme put it this way since you don't grasp something basic like this.

Try tanking a dungeon. Turn on stance, and only ever auto attack each add.
Then try only doing single target GCD's on trash pulls.
Then try doing just your AoE GCDs.
Then try weaving in your oGCDs.

Now, see which is the most effective method of tanking a dungeon.

Or; if you can't be bothered to think with even a modicum of criticality: my point is with regards to this sentence from DarkDredgen. "It's a Tank, no one cares/should care how much damage it does."
This is a bad sentiment to have. People should care about how much damage a tank is doing within reason. If a tank is at least doing simplistic things in dungeons, i.e. popping mitigation and doing their AoE combo, then that's all well and good. If they're doing pulls, wall to wall or single-pack, and not using AoE, then they're not tanking properly. As the difficulty of the content scales, so does the expectation of the tank, and all players, to perform better. Which means doing more damage.
That aside, another side effect of "doing more damage" is clearing the content faster. That means dungeons go faster, which means you're taking less damage from enemies as they're dying faster. In trials/raids you can worry less about getting to enrage because your damage is higher.

Sure there's more nuance and subtlety to this whole argument, especially when it comes to each tank, and each players comfort both in their chosen tank and the content therein, but that might go over a lotta people's heads if they're still learning. So, "just do more damage 4head" suffices as a "git gud" in my opinion.

Or, disregard what I'm saying because it doesn't align with your worldview. It's whatever, really. I'll be fine regardless.

Ya'll talking about tank stance like Shirk doesn't even exist. I never take off tank stance, just use Shirk as OT when my aggro starts to get too high. It's a free oGCD and you will never need it as OT but it's better to just use it when you don't have too many oGCD's to use than to worry about using 2 GCD's and moving your burst window rotation to fit in 2 with provoke and tank stance. Aggro is a nonfactor in this game anymore and it hasn't mattered since 3.0 stance dancing.

Or you can like... turn off your tank stance so you don't have to bother with Shirk.

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Originally Posted by Ryaduera

Ya'll talking about tank stance like Shirk doesn't even exist. I never take off tank stance, just use Shirk as OT when my aggro starts to get too high. It's a free oGCD and you will never need it as OT but it's better to just use it when you don't have too many oGCD's to use than to worry about using 2 GCD's and moving your burst window rotation to fit in 2 with provoke and tank stance. Aggro is a nonfactor in this game anymore and it hasn't mattered since 3.0 stance dancing.

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All it takes is for you to be a better DPS than your partner and you WILL regain aggro with the tank stance on, something you do not want. I have done this in ShB as every tank at one point or another, simply because my co-tank was not good at doing damage. Take no chances, guarantee an easy swap with tank stance turned off.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

All it takes is for you to be a better DPS than your partner and you WILL regain aggro with the tank stance on, something you do not want. I have done this in ShB as every tank at one point or another, simply because my co-tank was not good at doing damage. Take no chances, guarantee an easy swap with tank stance turned off.

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Just use Shirk, You will not take aggro if you Shirk as you watch your enmity bar go up. Guarantee to prevent you from ripping aggro from the MT, I've had the same issue with my DPS getting that high and just use Shirk. You don't have to, but find it easier since I have a macro to auto-cast it on the MT without changing targets, it's just a matter of which method of enmity management you prefer and is all the more reason for enmity generation to be nonfactor in this discussion. Enmity was brought up in the context of being a superior tank. Enmity doesn't really effect that all that much anymore.

I just prefer a tank swap taking just 1 oGCD with Provoke instead of 2 with Provoke + Stance. As a GNB main I have enough double weaving to do to not want to add another into a necessary mechanic if I don't have to.

I personnaly vastly prefer using 2 ogcd once to swap rather than use one more often AND stay focused on the aggro bar to be sure not to take it. But you do you.

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Originally Posted by Conando

Lol one of the healers from TPS later tweeted their dislike for Dark Knight.

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I watched the interview on stream, and there they said it was very specifically about the problems of healing Living Dead without having a WHM to Benediction it.

I would rather have any other tank class when I'm a healer. Darks die way to fast and very hard to keep alive.

Your average DRK will drop dead after roughly five seconds of not being healed.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Your average DRK will drop dead after roughly five seconds of not being healed.

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Lies. We die 10 seconds later cause we panicked hit Living Dead.

That was good bait OP

One soul eater combo is equivalent or less than one auto attack from a boss. That is DRKs only heal. AD doesnt count as you will not use it on boss fights.

I dont see them addressing this in 6.08 or 6.1

Most likely will have to endure this until 7.0 or 6.3 at the earliest

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Originally Posted by Daeriion_Aeradiir

What sacrifice of defensives? DRK literally has the exact same number as the other tanks, and 1 more than GNB & WAR if the damage is magic.

GNB:
1) Rampart
2) nebula
3) Camo (only 10% if damage is magic, RNG damage mitigation if damage is physical.)
4) Bolide
5) HoC

WAR:
1) Rampart
2) vengeance
3) Thrill
4) Holmgang
5) Bloodwhetting

DRK:
1) Rampart
2) Shadow Wall
3) Oblation (x2, giving it 7 defensives to play with if you truly want to get nitty gritty.)
4) Living Dead
5) TBN
6) Dark mind (Magic specific)

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So basically, a shared CD, and waaaaaay worse invun and a very specific magic migration CD is what says DRKs are on almost the same level defensive wise? Not to mention things like Bloodwhetting is almost on par with DRKs apparently ultimate Defensive CD, the almighty TBN. Sometimes I wonder if some of you are just joshing. And Oblation is also on a quite massive 60s (with two charges, but a small 10%) recharge compared to the other 3 tanks.

We can't just sit here and say, well DRKS have the same number of CDs if they are worse off than the other Tanks CDs. That's not a fair comparison at all.

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Originally Posted by battleshadow66

Not to mention things like Bloodwhetting is almost on par with DRKs apparently ultimate Defensive CD, the almighty TBN. Sometimes I wonder if some of you are just joshing.

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Not gonna lie, in Savage raids, TBN crushes Bloodwhetting. BW is only used for busters and a short heal/barrier during other mechanics, against TBN it's used for the extra Edge charge + major negation. BW earning roughly 20k HP, and the barrier is weaker than auto attacks.

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Originally Posted by Daeriion_Aeradiir

What sacrifice of defensives? DRK literally has the exact same number as the other tanks, and 1 more than GNB & WAR if the damage is magic.

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Let's not pretend that self-heals don't have defensive value, though. They're not mitigation, but they do help keep you alive against anything but one-shots. At that point, each other tank 6 defensives (adding Aurora, Equilibrium, and Req phase to that list), none of which are limited to magic nor come with a "just kill me anyways" clause.

In terms of sheer ability count, then, despite count alone being hardly relevant, DRK manages the same total number of defensives only by relying on a magic-only defensive and the worst of all invulns. In practice, the gap is worse, as there's clearly a difference between, say, Aurora and Equilibrium (and, of course, DRK's having no free self-healing abilities whatsoever).