FFXIV is super interesting BUT then why?

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Originally Posted by Kitahrox

In fact, are you grandpa or grandma? How old are you to have such a closed mind? The pvp only clings to the pve, to be serious for pve and to be elusive in pvp it opens the experience, and puts you in difficulty even if you train. Responsiveness to each situation in both PvP and PvPvE.

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Age has nothing to do with it. How closed minded are you to think this?

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Originally Posted by Kitahrox

I'm 34 years old and I played my first FF With Cloud, and I don't understand how it's possible that there is no real PvP existing here. In 2022 O.o ... Don't worry, pvp here won't change your usual style of play

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How is it possible to not have 'real pvp' in 2022? Ask SE, they've been doing it, and apparently very well.

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Originally Posted by Kitahrox

I would like to know if the pvp will only be present on the battelgrounds with more than 30 minutes of waiting to participate even being high level???

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What are you queuing for?

Rival Wings is a 30+ minute queue, but Frontlines is only ever a 5 minute queue for me. There is also a new mode coming that should be popular for a while, and hopefully longer.

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Originally Posted by Kitahrox

An MMO that works best is an MMO that succeeds in all aspects, if we will not measure each other to be the best of all, have simply been ordinary people without exceptional destiny, measure ourselves against each other makes the game cool and attractive. It's not real life, it's not because you're going to eat yourself a 'fast blade' that you'll be hospitalized for 1 month later or that your head will be cut off in the game, you're also fighting for a pvp goal. It's fun sometimes.

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Measuring ourselves against each other makes us competitive, which makes a lot of people hostile.

An MMO that tries to do everything will fail. There's just too many tastes out there. It's better for the survival and longevity of the game to pick a few things and make sure it does them well.

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Originally Posted by Kitahrox

Here there is only the population that operates at low revs, your car drives a long time and is damaged little (you go far without anything damaged to the engine) But on the other hand, A million cars have stopped elsewhere than here and its past to something else. I say that ignoring the pvp aspect is simply silly (bad mathematical deal)

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... I apologize but your english is jarring. I'm not completely sure what you're trying to say here, but driving your car responsibly so it lasts a long time and you get a lot of enjoyment and use out of it is not a bad idea. And as someone else posted they are not ignoring PVP. We have some pretty big updates coming, they just are likely not going to make it a huge part of FFXIV in the near future.

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Originally Posted by ScriGar

ngl mate if you want a pvp focused game, this isnt for you.
Go back to WOW or try New World if thats what you really want because FFXIV has never and will never be about that

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"Go back to XY".

I mean yes the game doesn't facilitate quite the experience as one hoped, but is this really the message we should be telling people? To just "go back, go away" from this game for having different hopes / expectations?

Least we could say is to give it time, as instanced pvp isn't that bad and 6.1 has a huge update in store for us. Telling someone to go play something else is counter-productive to fostering a pvp community. It may be small, but it IS passionate if you reach out for them.

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Originally Posted by Lihtleita

tbh if disneyland were a pvp zone id go more often

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Toddler Zerg!

I always wonder why PvE Andies always start hissing and spitting hairballs everytime someone mentions PvP. It is a Form of Content just like anything else and definitely has its place in MMO culture. There is always bad apples arround but you should be wiser, than to take anyone who is trashtalking seriously.

Just because it is badly designed in its current state, shouldnt mean that it has to stay that way. PvP in FFXIV has alot of potential to be good but first, Squeenix and the Community both need to understand that artificially inbalancing Jobs and Content, isnt the way to go.

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Originally Posted by Anhra

I always wonder why PvE Andies always start hissing and spitting hairballs everytime someone mentions PvP.

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Memories of being low level and being ganked in real world by high levels.

And I say that as a PvP healer in many games now.

(I think you are using Andy wrong, unless it's growing beyond a twitch streamer. And if so, it's not really an insult with the level of snowflakes)

I can't reply to all of them in direct connection with your posts

Older people are usually in direct ideology with what they have experienced, so no one to ask for pvp (outside the battlefields here) it's weird all the same .. [or even refute the fact that there are more here..]

Thanks for the information about the update, but if a player has to wait 1 hour or more to pvp, they will leave and leave all the pve players between them, as here for example, review a little the pvp aspect, by inserting it into a free map specially dedicated for that, with goals and everything the rest. [Not just the wolf's lair]

Too much waiting in 2022 to pvp so make it without waiting, if a player wants pvp, they just have to go to the free pvp zone, if there is only one player it's enough, not necessarily need more, a microphone with headphones and the ability to hit and it's cool

Shibi : I hope that because everywhere I saw no pvp,..no pvp, I am level 50 and nothing at all from my level (that was my first question) thanks for the information, I will continue to improve so :p

Kirotoan : Not hostile everywhere, just on map with free pvp ON and a minimum of rule
And
I was comparing the fact that a person told me that the game had been running for a long time but not at full speed. It was simply compared with the made 100% pve, Less risk of having angry player reviews because it's not 100% balanced in pvp...

Let's see...

FFXIV is so incredibly popular that the company had to stop selling the game, DURING THE HOLIDAYS, because their servers were overloaded.

Seems to me like the whole idea of "improving PvP would be good to bring in more players" is completely unnecessary, considering they can barely handle the players they have that are focused on PvE.

Plus, I'm personally grateful that this game isn't trying to cater more to PvP. In my experience, PvP usually results in the following:
- Creates more unneeded animosity between players
- Causes a ton more balancing issues between classes/jobs
- Requires a fair amount of time/energy/resources (that I would prefer going into making other improvements to the game)

PvP isn't in this game because the combat isn't suited for it. The GCDs are too long and there is no build variety with the jobs to make PvP viable. The PvP you have is janky as hell and there's no way to have it balanced to make it enjoyable the way you see in other games.

I agree with your opinion it is not really necessary BUT there are how many PvE map SO why not one PvP map with a free pvp arena area and the rest allowed duel, strike dummies for training, pvp skill activated, and pvp points earned for those who control the arena for example, I may be exaggerating but I write this to the snatch without thinking about the rules to apply to it, it remains simply a productive suggestion for an introduction to free pvp in this game

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Originally Posted by Alxyzntlct

Let's see...

FFXIV is so incredibly popular that the company had to stop selling the game, DURING THE HOLIDAYS, because their servers were overloaded.

Seems to me like the whole idea of "improving PvP would be good to bring in more players" is completely unnecessary, considering they can barely handle the players they have that are focused on PvE.

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Improving PvP isn't purely to "bring in more players", it's also to please the players who are already there and wish for a better PvP experience.

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Plus, I'm personally grateful that this game isn't trying to cater more to PvP. In my experience, PvP usually results in the following:

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"I like <game developer> not catering to <content I don't do>, therefore I am happy and I hope it stays this way" is a real nice way to say that you don't like other players to get something they like that you don't. If someone said that in respect to content you like, you'd be at least minorly vexed if not outright flipping tables over a statement as egoistic as this. But I digress.

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- Creates more unneeded animosity between players
- Causes a ton more balancing issues between classes/jobs
- Requires a fair amount of time/energy/resources (that I would prefer going into making other improvements to the game)

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1.) There wouldn't be "more unneeded animosity" than there already is, it is just that in PvP people tend to let their frustration speak loudly a lot of times - the issue is the player penting up anger in life in general or having a terrible attitude only really showing its' colours when confronted with competition or challenge.

2.) Literally how? It has it's own balancing system separate from PVE ever since patch 4.0 to make balancing jobs easier. Past balance iterations have not been as great, but the balancing issues currently present aren't nearly as glaring as they used to be, most if not all jobs are viable, it is just that currently the jobs are balanced around 4v4 FEAST, which likely will change with 6.1's 5v5 Crystal Conflict.

3.) If you truly think this, then you probably don't know how the FFXIV team works internally. They have separate branches for different content. The housing team for instance isn't handling what the raiding design team is doing, job balance and content creation is also most likely separating PVE and PVP. You aren't trading one piece of content for another here, you can have both. Yes it requires effort and resources, but it is content like any other and should receive support.

Naoki Yoshida even directly stated that they don't like players dragging PvP around like "why do you support this, this is bad", in his words it was roughly: "It is content just like raiding, dungeons and other things and thus it deserves to be supported and be played".

Your Level 50 doesn't mean anything, everyone is upgraded to 90 in equal gear. At the datacentre level we all queue the same queue.

Make sure you have done this quest: https://eu.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...t/60d4d077629/

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Originally Posted by BluexBird

PvP isn't in this game because the combat isn't suited for it. The GCDs are too long and there is no build variety with the jobs to make PvP viable. The PvP you have is janky as hell and there's no way to have it balanced to make it enjoyable the way you see in other games.

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Have you actually pvped in FFXIV? According to your achievement unlocks, you have a rather small amount of PvP experience at least on that character. The GCDs being long doesn't really matter as we have plenty of abilities / oGCDs to fill between those and the time-to-kill is actually really fast in a more coordinated setting as The Feast or soon to be Crystal Conflict. What is janky indeed is the netcode for player positioning, but overall the pvp modes play actually pretty well from a technical standpoint.

And who knows, the pvp balance is something they have extensively discussed and been working on for patch 6.1.

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Originally Posted by Maxilor

The term MMORPG has been warped to the point that the original definition doesn't really hold up.

FFXIV, Black Desert, and Destiny 2 are all vastly different games but all are considered MMORPGs today.

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Ff14 is an MMORPG
Black Desert is a MMOARPG (action role playing game)
Destiny is a MMOFPSRPG (first person shooter rpg)

You gotta remember the sub categories lol

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Originally Posted by Kitahrox

Instead of having a simple area like the wolf lair where you have nothing to do in fact. .

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Are.. are you sitting in the wolf's den waiting on pvp matches to pop?? If you are.. no wonder your bored.. play the dang game.. do some side quests don't sit around waiting for a queue.

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Originally Posted by Baxcel

Ff14 is an MMORPG
Black Desert is a MMOARPG (action role playing game)
Destiny is a MMOFPSRPG (first person shooter rpg)

You gotta remember the sub categories lol

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The more it sounds like someone getting a firehose to the face, the less it's going to be like Everquest.

The recurring argument in favor of more PvP-centric features so far essentially boils down to: It's necessary for the game's success. Where have you been for the past 8 years of this game being very much successful in its current state? And if that wasn't enough, they've had to stop game sales twice in the past couple of months due to a MASSIVE PLAYER INFLUX that they simply weren't equipped to handle. Where are you getting this idea that FFXIV cannot be successful unless it repackages itself as less of a PvE game and more of a PvP game?

And before the 'but it wouldn't hurt the PvE players' argument I keep seeing, that is also an erroneous way to approach things. The devs can only release so much content with their available resources. They've already had to cut down on the numbers of dungeons and whatnot to make room for other features. If they begin re-focusing on more PvP features, they need to cut down on PvE features. They can't just magic content out of thin air, developing stuff takes both time and money.

There are servers still struggling with long queues, the last thing we need is more players thrown into the mix to bog it down further for the sake of features most people here want nothing to do with.

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Originally Posted by Alxyzntlct

Let's see...

FFXIV is so incredibly popular that the company had to stop selling the game, DURING THE HOLIDAYS, because their servers were overloaded.

Seems to me like the whole idea of "improving PvP would be good to bring in more players" is completely unnecessary, considering they can barely handle the players they have that are focused on PvE.

Plus, I'm personally grateful that this game isn't trying to cater more to PvP. In my experience, PvP usually results in the following:
- Creates more unneeded animosity between players
- Causes a ton more balancing issues between classes/jobs
- Requires a fair amount of time/energy/resources (that I would prefer going into making other improvements to the game)

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Most people who bought the game stop playing after finish the MSQ or current patch (which takes less than 2 days) then there is literally nothing else to do in this game besides PVE(which its boring after doing the same dungeons/trials x 2304234 times) or use the game as a second life client (besides the RP scene here its probably the worst )

Also how PVP in FFXIV " Causes a ton more balancing issues between classes/jobs" when the PVP mode its played completely different than PVE?.

I don't even know why FC's (Guilds) even exists in first place in this game, I remember old games like RO/L2 were FC/Guild wars were super fun.

Uh oh! It's one of those threads!

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Originally Posted by Lunalepsy

Uh oh! It's one of those threads!

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Thanks for the contribution I guess...? I mean the thread header isn't exactly great, but there is an active discussion nontheless.

Even the best pvp mmos are garbage as a pvp game. Id rather they not waste too much on it here.

It isn't about catering to the success of FFXIV itself. PvP in FFXIV has ALOT of issues which havent been adressed and neglected for years, all that People want, is PvP existing for the sake of PvP, and not as a means to bait in people who dont care about the mode and just join for their daily dose of EXP.

The biggest issues are (at least from my perspective):

- Job design and balance. Theres 19 Jobs avaiable to play and from those, 8 are straight up unkillable in a 1vs1 scenario and from the remaining 11, 5 have a HUGE advantage over the remaining 6. Let that sink in for a moment.
- lack of overall content, and the content that does exist, isn't fun over the long run of things. Frontline is just a zerg festival, duels are nonexistent and Feast is such a mess, that it deserves a Thread for itself about a explaination of whats wrong with it.
- Rival Wings? Only becomes playable during moogle timestone events, because for some genius reason, its not part of Frontline Roulette.

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Originally Posted by Anhra

Rival Wings? Only becomes playable during moogle timestone events, because for some genius reason, its not part of Frontline Roulette.

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I wish Rival wings was up more often. I have fun in there. Should be Rival Wing's Roulette as well as Frontlines Roulette :D

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Originally Posted by Anhra

The biggest issues are (at least from my perspective):

- Job design and balance. Theres 19 Jobs avaiable to play and from those, 8 are straight up unkillable in a 1vs1 scenario and from the remaining 11, 5 have a HUGE advantage over the remaining 6. Let that sink in for a moment.

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Forgive me for singling out this point - PvP cannot be reliably gauged or balanced around 1vs1 scenarios and jobs having the advantage in 1vs1 is something that will always exist as long as there is a semblance of the Holy Trinity in PvP.

Hypothetically speaking, everyone could kill everyone in a 1vs1 - how would this affect group PvP? If any job could kill healers without issues and healers could do so back in 1vs1, consider how it scales up when more than one player is attacking the same target. TTK (time to kill) would shoot up even more for every type of group pvp content, particularly the ones that do a horrible job at spreading out objectives (Feast, Frontlines) to spread out player engagements and keep player counts low.

I'm speaking from experience that right now a tank in Feast for instance can literally get 20000 to 0 in one second if done right, leaving no reaction time to the target (stun) and potentially his teammates (heals, mitigation from others), so the TTK is already extreme if you do it right.

Let's say tanks get squishier than they already are without being caught off guard, they will just flat-out keel over and die as soon as 2+ players jump them.

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Originally Posted by Kitahrox

Hi all

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this isnt that type of game
that is what wow is about
and wow isnt doing so hot

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Originally Posted by Mezzoforte

this isnt that type of game
that is what wow is about
and wow isnt doing so hot

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I agree that FFXIV is far from being pvp-oriented, but this community could use two braincells and realize that WoW had problems for a variety of reasons, and that doesn't mean that just because WoW has a certain type of content, if any other game has it as well, it will automatically have the same problems that WoW have.

Someone doesn't realize that "no PvP to speak of" is a tremendous SELLING POINT for a tremendous slice of the MMO Market.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

"Go back to XY".

I mean yes the game doesn't facilitate quite the experience as one hoped, but is this really the message we should be telling people? To just "go back, go away" from this game for having different hopes / expectations?

Least we could say is to give it time, as instanced pvp isn't that bad and 6.1 has a huge update in store for us. Telling someone to go play something else is counter-productive to fostering a pvp community. It may be small, but it IS passionate if you reach out for them.

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Im not saying pvp shouldnt happen, im just saying that the kind of pvp they want doesnt exist in this game.
If thats all someone wants then this game isnt for them. tbh that came across as harsher than it was meant to but my point still stands

Here's the simplest reason why there's barely any focus on PVP in this game. Ready for it? It's a singular, pretty simple reason to understand why they don't throw tons of focus on it.

It's rampant with botters.

No DRM to see third party software = Botters run rampant in PVP.

People report them. Nothing is done.

You'll never get more big dedicated competitive PVP focus until they somehow deal with that. Good luck on that front. They've flailed for years dealing with Botters.

There is PvP in the game.
Its called Triple Triad and you can find it in the gold saucer.

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Originally Posted by ArkenaeuxBelmont

Here's the simplest reason why there's barely any focus on PVP in this game. Ready for it? It's a singular, pretty simple reason to understand why they don't throw tons of focus on it.

It's rampant with botters.

No DRM to see third party software = Botters run rampant in PVP.

People report them. Nothing is done.

You'll never get more big dedicated competitive PVP focus until they somehow deal with that. Good luck on that front. They've flailed for years dealing with Botters.

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While I wont deny that pvp botting and scripting is sadly a thing, I disagree that this is the only thing preventing progress to a competitive pvp system.

Also correct me if I am wrong, but iirc Square Enix being a JP company is bound to japanese law, which means distribution of software within FFXIV's installation scanning your system for third-party programs interacting with or injecting into the game is actually illegal for them. So DRM is entirely out of question.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Also correct me if I am wrong, but iirc Square Enix being a JP company is bound to japanese law, which means distribution of software within FFXIV's installation scanning your system for third-party programs interacting with or injecting into the game is actually illegal for them. So DRM is entirely out of question.

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They don't need such invasive software, local GMs who play the game (as normal people with normal skills not as Ascians) and who are empowered to investigate and act would likely be enough. Right now anything to do with botting or cheats goes to the black hole of the tiny Japan based Special Task Force.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

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To a extent, youre correct, Job balance will always require some Jobs to be stronger than others, because of the necessity of a Meta having to exist, but despite sounding rather contradicting, Healers and Tanks can both be balanced and staying inbalanced and fullfilling their role at the same time, ill provide you with examples.

There are, at least from what ive observes in my time with MMOs in general, two ways of "balancing" Healers and Tanks in PvP that would make them work in both 1vs1 scenarios, as well as group fights: "by design" and "artificially".

-With Artificially, i mean in order to counteract the ideology of a Tank being sturdy and a Healer keeping things and itself alive (which makes it by nature overpowered), over-usage needs to be punished.
A example for this would be "healing sickness" on Healers. Healing sickness is a debuff that is being applied everytime someone is being healed, which reduces healing recieved by a certain amount for a few seconds (like, up to 10 seconds). It wont reduce the initial Heal recieved, but any healing that would follow in a short amount of time and said debuff WILL stack if you try to spam Heals on the same target over and over, forcing the Healer to use other means (like Shields, Buffs, crowd control effects, debuffs and so on) to buy time, until it can Heal again (said Heals, are usually quite potent, because of the sickness debuff, to even things out).
On a Tank, a similar example would be a Parry Skill which would work in a similar fashion. On FFXIV terms, it could work as follows: You gain a buff (similar to Retaliation) which lasts a couple of seconds that puts you into a "stance" for like up to 10 seconds. IF you get hit during that time, you gain advantages such as increased defense, a shield, Lifesteal effects, you name it. BUT if you dont get hit during that time, it will provide a debuff on you in a similar fashion as mentioned before. That does not mean that Tanks shouldnt have any defensive cooldowns as it is fashion, but more on this on the next Point, which is

Post 1/2, because too many words.

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Originally Posted by Anhra

sorry for doubleposting

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-By Design. By Design i mean simply "holes" in a toolkit in which a Healer cant heal and a Tank cant Tank under normal circumstances. That doesnt mean that said holes are something that only exist on Healers/tanks account, but they also could be created by other Jobs which are able to make them with Skills that either completely negate or punish their nature (imagine it like this, "Caster" is being able to apply a DoT which has by nature a additional effect alongside doing noticeably large damage, it also detonates immediately for the FULL duration when it gets dispelled or "healed over" when a Healer tries to mitigate it in said way). The whole purpose of this kind of design, is to provide opportunities in which others COULD emerge victorious over a Healer or Tank, but those "holes in design" shouldnt by any means, render the latter completely helpless, only "weaker than usual" for a brief time. That way, Cooldowns can still exist, but in order for them to do so in a fair fashion, theyre tied usually to a LONG Cooldown, since their very nature, can patch up those holes in design.


Nevertheless, it is a very complicated matter and requires Classes to be well thought of, but it is definitely possible to Design Healers and Tanks for PvP in which they arent simply unfair metagolems.

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One of the reason I choose ffxiv as my main mmorpg is because of lack of open world pvp (pvp only in very specific instance/gamemode), as this game has more focus on story and coop gamemode
although I still enjoy some frontline / rival wings once or twice..

so, if suddenly yoship decided to implement all area to be pvp-able,
I'll really will reconsider to continue playing
(or at least if it is toggle-able, you'll bet it'll be no-pvp-mode forever for me)

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Originally Posted by Kokonji

One of the reason I choose ffxiv as my main mmorpg is because of lack of open world pvp (pvp only in very specific instance/gamemode), as this game has more focus on story and coop gamemode
although I still enjoy some frontline / rival wings once or twice..

so, if suddenly yoship decided to implement all area to be pvp-able,
I'll really will reconsider to continue playing
(or at least if it is toggle-able, you'll bet it'll be no-pvp-mode forever for me)

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Tera Online did it in exact that same fashion. You could PvP everywhere and anyone who had PvPOn which was working really well and couldnt be abused, since it was bound to a 30second timer (which could be interrupted when you got attacked by another player btw) before it allowed to switch between PvPOn and PvPOff.

that being said, Tera Online is now pretty much dead, but not because of PvP being bad or too hostile aganist people who dont want to PvP, but rather because of their greedy Dev's.

I come back to it again but I think that comparing the pve to the pvp is like comparing having cold blood and warm blood, criticizing and giving your opinion will not change anything because both exist in us, it is better to have them on your side. If I go for a drink, if I go to play football, if I rush with the car (A little adrenaline in the blood) and I find myself with a little heat in the blood. Never in life I will play FFXIV, I will prefer to play 1000x more a game where it's hot~boiling, I connect and I let off steam without waiting. Removed the pvp bestial aspect (free pvp) is an incredible handicap as long as surely you have the right to say no in your options. In brief, No one will have the right to rape you ;) (it's beyond a simple style of mmo, it's simply the bursts of life)

Signature test

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Originally Posted by Kitahrox

I come back to it again but I think that comparing the pve to the pvp is like comparing having cold blood and warm blood, criticizing and giving your opinion will not change anything because both exist in us, it is better to have them on your side. If I go for a drink, if I go to play football, if I rush with the car (A little adrenaline in the blood) and I find myself with a little heat in the blood. Never in life I will play FFXIV, I will prefer to play 1000x more a game where it's hot~boiling, I connect and I let off steam without waiting. Removed the pvp bestial aspect (free pvp) is an incredible handicap as long as surely you have the right to say no in your options. In brief, No one will have the right to rape you ;) (it's beyond a simple style of mmo, it's simply the bursts of life)

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Wait, I think I've deciphered the Rosetta stone here.

You want WORLD pvp? Open zone pvp?

That aspect is never going to happen. If you're expecting that one, XIV definitely isn't the game for you. PVP will always be a completely detached mode from the over all world. Even if they made one "free for all" zone, I can almost guarantee that the majority of players would avoid it. SE would have to highly incentivize participation for it to even draw a crowd.

In terms of activating world pvp in existing zones, that will 100% never happen. XIV is not, at its core, designed around this. It would be an unmitigated disaster with the game systems already in place.

Also, we are all not "cold blooded" and "hot blooded". We're warm blooded mammals. Your figure of speech is a bit disingenuous. I understand you want competition and that's the type of game you enjoy, but that is not what XIV is, in regards to PVP.

You get competition in this game, if you want it, in the various world first races for Savage. In competition with getting better at your own rotation, increasing your numbers, becoming a better player.

XIV has a PVE focus. I'm sorry if this upsets you, but the game won't shift to PVP focus.