Drk absorb hp, or mp, why was this nerfed

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Originally Posted by saber_alter

If TBN and living dead are reworked they don't need the same level of sustain as the other tanks. Throwing a weak self heal on an already existing cooldown (no more than 400 potency) or slightly buffing soul eater would be more than enough.

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Agreed, I suggested from the start Souleater cure potency could use an extra 100, or another 300-400 heal on an ability wouldn't be an issue.

TBN will be liked again in high tier content when it's actually hitting like a truck, it's what made Dark Knight so strong in Shadowbringers.

That's not how it works. Flat damage reduction always mitigates the same amount of damage regardless of what happens. Percent damage reduction mitigates more under high damage conditions.

But it remains to be seen whether big damage spikes will happen frequently enough to break from the standard invuln/supercooldown/swap routine. Tank access to burst healing is another issue entirely to all this, and you can't conflate the two.

Trait TBN with a small heal added. Reduce recast time for abyssal drain. Then I feel ok for efficiency in big pull situations compared to the other tanks. Or nerf the huge self heals of the other tanks. Warrior is almost a healer now. It's like a hero class going beyond its role limitations. Big crit heals very often.

TBN was so strong in SHB because the equivalents were inferior in comparison, right now TBN is okayish at best compared to its equivalents

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Originally Posted by Undeadfire

I just tried both.

We know Warriors heals are broken, no reason to discuss more, it needs nerfing badly.

Holy Sheltron vs TBN, Holy Sheltron is slightly above it, or below it depending on regen ticks. TBN on yourself/tank partner is around 18k at highest current HP.

I'm aware of Holy Spirits healing, but Paladin cannot use on demand, it's a synced rotation, and trying to use Clemency only hurts it.

GNB can't even main tank anymore, it literally can't fit everything in No Mercy.

Dark Knights TBN rework would be fine, but adding another power heal by demand is seriously crazy with TBN, you know how broken that is? Souleater/Brutal Shell/Storms Path are used a lot. TBN is trashy to use, but keeping roughly 18k shield and having a power heal? Bruh... However Living Dead has been needing a tune up for years.

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No it's not, it's just good.

Lol no, H.shelltron shits on TBN, plus double use.

Yeah just like WAR's, starting to get it?

Yeah it can, what? Yes it can fit everything, it's just clunky.

No it's not.

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Originally Posted by Aluja89

Lol no, H.shelltron shits on TBN, plus double use.

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Not really, it regens to a TBN shield, 4s damage reduction, other than that it's a typical guaranteed shield block, Paladins main physical attacks do not heal, Gnb/Drk/War have theirs on a repetitive spam. Holy Sheltron cannot be permanently up, the points gauge build up is much slower, vs the regen timer.

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Originally Posted by Aluja89

Yeah just like WAR's, starting to get it?

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No, Bloodwhetting/Nascent Flash can be used anywhere in placement, Holy Spirit cannot. Reqs + Holy Spirit is a forced rotation GCD with no choice where to pop, either pop Reqs, or lose 1-2k DPS in the rotation, completely de-syncing the whole job.

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Originally Posted by Aluja89

No it's not.

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Bro... 18k shield, 3-4k average heal spam, and another Equilibrium on top if that's seriously an accepted suggestion, that's more broken than Warrior. If you can't see that then I am sorry. I can accept TBN needs a rework, but not an addition of a ultra heal + TBN, the sustain numbers would eclipse GNB/PLD heals put together. In a more elaborate talk, Dark Knight would have more sustains on demand than Gunbreaker and Paladin, and making it better than Warrior.

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Originally Posted by Undeadfire

Not really, it regens to a TBN shield, 4s damage reduction, other than that it's a typical guaranteed shield block, Paladins main physical attacks do not heal, Gnb/Drk/War have theirs on a repetitive spam.



No, Bloodwhetting/Nascent Flash can be used anywhere in placement, Holy Spirit cannot. Holy Spirit is a forced rotation GCD with no choice where to pop, either pop or lose 1k DPS.



Bro... 18k shield, 3-4k average heal, and another Equilibrium on top if that's seriously an accepted suggestion, that's more broken than Warrior. If you can't see that then I am sorry.

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No, HS is free and gives you continued sustain and like I said, double use. Drop the copium.

You're right, it can be used anywhere that's because WAR doesn't have built in sustain like PLD, it all evens out.

Bro, do you even play the game? No one uses TBN for anything other than TBs and maybe raidwides and if you do you're potentially wasting 460 potency and please don't tell me you're counting on Souleater.

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Originally Posted by Aluja89

No, HS is free and gives you continued sustain and like I said, double use. Drop the copium.

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50 points to Holy Sheltron/Intervention/Cover, and you need 10 auto attacks (5 points each), you only start with 100 gauge in duties, it's not free.

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Originally Posted by Aluja89

Bro, do you even play the game? No one uses TBN for anything other than TBs and maybe raidwides and if you do you're potentially wasting 460 potency and please don't tell me you're counting on Souleater.

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Holy Sheltron is pretty close to it, you can't just pop in harder content at anytime, and call it a day. Paladin still only has 2 self reduction cooldowns, 1 time Invuln, and it needs Holy Sheltron available for proper uses, a lot of times this ability will be held to make sure it's available, as I said above, 50 points to use. 4s damage reduction/Shield Block is a lot more useful for the busters than a laughable regen that healers can use O-GCDs instead for auto attacks. It's impossible to permanent up time it's regen.

I'll elaborate more.

Holy Sheltron at the very start needs to be popped, or you're losing points gain, it can be popped on demand but not in a hold forever and use sense, it takes 24-25s of melee uptime for another Holy Sheltron, to be available. If you're starting to cap gauge points, suck it up and use it, maybe losing value, but it's not as worse as losing the points you could've rolled in. As I said for Reqs + Holy Spirit/Circle, it's a forced rotation GCD, no choice when to pop and use, except what opener you're using.

Warriors power heals are the bigger problems and should never be reaching it's level of healing, in fact Warriors healing severely needs tuning down since it can pop anytime, it likes.... Equilibrium didn't need a regen.

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Originally Posted by Bhearil

Why? DRK doesnt have any other way to recover HP other than Souleater while every other tank have several ways to self heal, and considering Abyssal Drain and Carve and Spit share cd a DRk would be unable to pull double heals even if they wanted.

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The whole "tanks/dps should be able to heal themselves" meme has been going too far already, at the expense of Healers becoming more and more unnecessary. Just PLD should be allowed to heal himself at the expense of doing less dmg compared to other Tanks. Squeenix really needs to stop acting like a small indie company and start designing proper Jobs, especially Healers and Tanks with their own unique way of handling things.

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Originally Posted by Anhra

The whole "tanks/dps should be able to heal themselves" meme has been going too far already, at the expense of Healers becoming more and more unnecessary. Just PLD should be allowed to heal himself at the expense of doing less dmg compared to other Tanks. Squeenix really needs to stop acting like a small indie company and start designing proper Jobs, especially Healers and Tanks with their own unique way of handling things.

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Self healing has always existed on almost every job so they wont backtrack from that at this point, but DRK has been "blessed" with the least self heal of all tanks with a mediocre kit and a horrible invul skill that is a black hole of healing resources. Healing since a long time already was "keep people alive with ogcds alone and spam your atack/dot button" but thats a healer issue not a tank one

Saying that WAR self heal is ridiculous doesnt justify DRk to have the middle finger on healing

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Originally Posted by Tranquilmelody7

Idk, I still think TBN holds up better than Holy Shelltron and Heart of Conundrum for dungeon pulls
Actually TBN is flat out better than Holy Shelltron period if it pops

Don't get me wrong DRK sustain definitely needs work, but TBN holds it's weight as an individual skill just fine

Bloodwhetting is another story, but I think it's fine Warrior to be a queen of dungeons

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Your high, TBN compared to holy sheltron is a joke, the fact that I can go into a dungeon and on every wall to wall pull as PLD use ONLY Holy sheltron and RQ and HSpirit spam right into aoe swords and never worry about anything is a stark frigging difference then pressing TBN, getting a free Flood of shadow and then eating dirt for another 10 seconds. I can also use Holy sheltron back to back for a lot of pulls because your oath gauge starts at 100, making it easy to maintain 2 HS per pull.

This all sounds like its coming from someone who hasnt played both tanks.

Bringing DRK to a dungeon is a disservice to your party. 10% will never make up for your healer having to actually heal you, never mind that if you compared it to WAR/GNB where then DMG difference is even less.

They really should give the Living Dead penalty to these self-healing tanks. They won't even notice when they can burst heal themselves to full. It might even allow for some skilled play on these jobs.

Every time I use TBN in a dungeon pull, it covers 3 or 4 attacks at most

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Originally Posted by Bhearil

Self healing has always existed on almost every job so they wont backtrack from that at this point, but DRK has been "blessed" with the least self heal of all tanks with a mediocre kit and a horrible invul skill that is a black hole of healing resources. Healing since a long time already was "keep people alive with ogcds alone and spam your atack/dot button" but thats a healer issue not a tank one

Saying that WAR self heal is ridiculous doesnt justify DRk to have the middle finger on healing

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It is also a Healer issue if you have nothing left to heal in the first place. And just because "it has always been that way" , doesn't necessarily mean it is good design on any regard. If anything, ALL tanks should get the DRK treatment, abd just PLD gets to keep clemency and thats it.

Instead, Tanks should get something like a parry skill, (except for PLD, because clemency), which should work similar on how it works for SAM, but without the Healing part and with a CD of arround 20-40sec. If you dont successfully get hit after using the parry skill, you will get penalized. Something like that would make tank gameplay alot better.

Honestly, just make Abyssal Drain a GCD with 50 Blood Gauge cost with higher Healing per hit.

Problem solved but no one listens.

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Originally Posted by Anhra

Instead, Tanks should get something like a parry skill, (except for PLD, because clemency), which should work similar on how it works for SAM, but without the Healing part and with a CD of arround 20-40sec. If you dont successfully get hit after using the parry skill, you will get penalized. Something like that would make tank gameplay alot better.

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From another topic, SE won't ever do this again, it only encourages Tank DPS padding. Self only abilities that grants DPS only makes the job more favourable to bring, can easily exploit for raid buff windows, or optimising more over other tanks. There is zero reason to pop Clemency unless Healer is performing poorly, or it's downtime nothing to attack. EW Clemency, is still a GCD that should never be casted whatsoever in 99% of cases.

Third Eye exist, but you have to soak lethal levels of damage for usage, or a rotation window of a bosses attack. Soaking lethal levels of damage requires raid members to use resources reducing the optimal attempt.

I am speaking on high tier content, not the casual content.

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Originally Posted by Undeadfire

From another topic, SE won't ever do this again, it only encourages Tank DPS padding. Self only abilities that grants DPS only makes the job more favourable to bring, can easily exploit for raid buff windows, or optimising more over other tanks.

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You're 100% correct on this one but, isn't this the exact same thing with the Self-Sustain for every Tank right now? "makes the job more favourable to bring" imagin a Tank healing himself after a Tank Buster so the Healer can literally ignore it and not waste a GCD on him which results in higher damage?
I think it's literally the same thing right now.

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Originally Posted by Endolas

You're 100% correct on this one but, isn't this the exact same thing with the Self-Sustain for every Tank right now? "makes the job more favourable to bring" imagin a Tank healing himself after a Tank Buster so the Healer can literally ignore it and not waste a GCD on him which results in higher damage?
I think it's literally the same thing right now.

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To avoid being hypocritical, TBN does need adjustments. Obtain gain than punish if the shield fails to be broken, grants Dark Arts either way and extend the cooldown.

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Originally Posted by Xrison

Carve & Spit with a 1000 potency self heal would be amazing.

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I'd rather just theme C&S vs. AD off of C&S appearing to be a three-part hit.

• Delete Blood Weapon (since it has no value except to finickily grant up to 3k MP per minute, which you can make up for below).
• Put C&S and AD on a 30 second cooldown (via later trait, as if to make up for the fewer Syphon Strike / Souleater casts per minute resultant from Blood spenders). Ideally, give them two charges.
• Have AD grant 600 MP and 200 potency cure per enemy hit. Have C&S grant 1800 MP (600*3) and a 600 (200*3) potency cure. The added 1200 MP on the original C&S per minute and the further C&S per minute (1800) totals to 3k extra MP per minute, equivalent to Blood Weapon.
• Thereafter, compensate for the added potency of the extra C&S itself and voila, you have handy self-sustain and no finnicky Blood Weapon.

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Originally Posted by Anhra

It is also a Healer issue if you have nothing left to heal in the first place. And just because "it has always been that way" , doesn't necessarily mean it is good design on any regard. If anything, ALL tanks should get the DRK treatment, abd just PLD gets to keep clemency and thats it.

Instead, Tanks should get something like a parry skill, (except for PLD, because clemency), which should work similar on how it works for SAM, but without the Healing part and with a CD of arround 20-40sec. If you dont successfully get hit after using the parry skill, you will get penalized. Something like that would make tank gameplay alot better.

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You can blame SE for making jobs more and more casual like healers having so many instant heals that would make Jesus blush, because unless people play badly you can heal even savage rarely using gcds by rotation your ogcds most of the time. And thats was way before Tanks got the current improved self sustain (once again making jobs more and more casual)

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Originally Posted by Undeadfire

From another topic, SE won't ever do this again, it only encourages Tank DPS padding. Self only abilities that grants DPS only makes the job more favourable to bring, can easily exploit for raid buff windows, or optimising more over other tanks. There is zero reason to pop Clemency unless Healer is performing poorly, or it's downtime nothing to attack. EW Clemency, is still a GCD that should never be casted whatsoever in 99% of cases.

Third Eye exist, but you have to soak lethal levels of damage for usage, or a rotation window of a bosses attack. Soaking lethal levels of damage requires raid members to use resources reducing the optimal attempt.

I am speaking on high tier content, not the casual content.

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Only a fool takes a Game Directors words for granted. Yoshi P. also used to say that PLD will NEVER be able to block magical dmg, yet here we are. And Opimisation is the last thing, that should influence gameplay design of any kind, thats why we are in this Gameplay design mess to begin with.

Tanks should be tanks, not demigods who also happen to be lowkey healers.

I'm kind of fine with PLD being able to moonlight as a healer, since at least it's never ideal to spend your GCDs taking over from the healer and the DPS penalty does get heftier the longer you need to do it when MP runs out. I could see Intervention healing being changed though.

Maybe I'm just biased toward my new main? I do also see plenty of WAR players just stoked being able to play with god mode on without the slightest concern for the overall balance.

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Originally Posted by Anhra

Only a fool takes a Game Directors words for granted. Yoshi P. also used to say that PLD will NEVER be able to block magical dmg, yet here we are. And Opimisation is the last thing, that should influence gameplay design of any kind, thats why we are in this Gameplay design mess to begin with.

Tanks should be tanks, not demigods who also happen to be lowkey healers.

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That's different, Paladin being unable to block Magic Damage only made Dark Knight a higher pick rate, they want all jobs to be able to clear content, not make other jobs struggle with content more than others.

Edit: I know a Dark Knight mention is coming, and it won't struggle under a competent player, TBN has always been very powerful in Savage raids.

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Originally Posted by Undeadfire

That's different, Paladin being unable to block Magic Damage only made Dark Knight a higher pick rate, they want all jobs to be able to clear content, not make other jobs struggle with content more than others.

Edit: I know a Dark Knight mention is coming, and it won't struggle under a competent player, TBN has always been very powerful in Savage raids.

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I don't think anyone who is doing EX/raids is saying DRK is weak in them. Its literally just wall to wall pulling that is so off kilter compared to the other 3.